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For developers, Gamepass is the worst thing to happen to the industry.

Fabieter

Member
People who go to theaters and buy blu rays subsidize as well. You offer multiple streams of revenue for people to choose from.

Well, not exactly. Around here, when a movie first releases on streaming, you’re paying about $15 to watch it. After that, it gets cheaper, and typically, after 2 or 3 years, it ends up on services like Prime or Netflix. Expecting day-one games to be available on streaming services is just unrealistic.

Imagine if Disney released all of the MCU movies on Disney+ on day one (even though Disney+ hasn’t been around that long). They’d lose a ton of money, and it would be terrible for the industry.

Subscriptions are fine, as long as they put stuff there which revenue stream tried up.
 
Well, not exactly. Around here, when a movie first releases on streaming, you’re paying about $15 to watch it. After that, it gets cheaper, and typically, after 2 or 3 years, it ends up on services like Prime or Netflix. Expecting day-one games to be available on streaming services is just unrealistic.

Imagine if Disney released all of the MCU movies on Disney+ on day one (even though Disney+ hasn’t been around that long). They’d lose a ton of money, and it would be terrible for the industry.

Subscriptions are fine, as long as they put stuff there which revenue stream tried up.
Game of Thrones is one of the biggest and most expensive TV shows ever produced and it is available day 1 on a sub. Every TV show ever made in history is available day 1 on a sub whether its internet streaming or traditional cable. Companies can go day 1 if they want. No one's forcing you to do anything.

I wouldn't use Disney movies as a model for much. Closest comparison is crappy big budget AAA games. Most of those are not on a sub day 1 and a lot of them seem to be bombing lately much like Disney. Creatively bankrupt, "safe," risk averse, microtransaction-infested, tired IP, too big to fail crap. EA still does it though as well as Ubisoft.
 
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MacReady13

Member
Can't believe I'm saying something positive about Gamepass, but at least someone might see your game and at least play it. I guess in this respect, games leaving the service makes sense, the field should never be overwhelmingly crowded. I don't know if MS pays for engagement time or one lump sum fee to get the game on the service for a while and if those rates are worth anything to the dev.

I'm pretty sure if you are an indie on Steam, unless you come out with a miraculous banger of a game, your game will be buried immediately and never be seen by anybody who has no clue about it.

Seems Indies lose either way. Just pick your poison.
During the 360 era, we had something called DEMOS. We’d download them, for free, and play a sample of the game. This would allow us to play every game and decide for ourselves if we liked what we played and then we could either buy it, or leave it. We didn’t have to pay a rental fee on top of also wanting to buy that or any other game. These were the days that many of us miss so much cause, minus the beginning of DLC, demos were free and we could decide to buy or deny for the massive sum of zero dollars.
 
During the 360 era, we had something called DEMOS. We’d download them, for free, and play a sample of the game. This would allow us to play every game and decide for ourselves if we liked what we played and then we could either buy it, or leave it. We didn’t have to pay a rental fee on top of also wanting to buy that or any other game. These were the days that many of us miss so much cause, minus the beginning of DLC, demos were free and we could decide to buy or deny for the massive sum of zero dollars.
Demos in many cases lead to a skipped sale. Developers and publishers are the ones that stopped doing it.
 

Fabieter

Member
Game of Thrones is one of the biggest and most expensive TV shows ever produced and it is available day 1 on a sub. Every TV show ever made in history is available day 1 on a sub whether its internet streaming or traditional cable. Companies can go day 1 if they want. No one's forcing you to do anything.

I wouldn't use Disney movies as a model for much. Closest comparison is crappy big budget AAA games. Most of those are not on a sub day 1 and a lot of them seem to be bombing lately much like Disney. Creatively bankrupt, "safe," risk averse, tired IP too big to fail crap. EA still does it though as well as Ubisoft.

Game of Thrones is comparable to a mega-release like GTA. HBO is also quite expensive considering the limited content they offer. That said, the content is undeniably premium, but it’s comparable to having just one premium release per year on a gaming subscription service—which honestly isn’t much.

These days, shows are generally much cheaper to produce than games. A budget of $100 million for an entire season is on the higher end for TV shows. So, I’d rather compare it to movies instead.
 
Game of Thrones is comparable to a mega-release like GTA. HBO is also quite expensive considering the limited content they offer. That said, the content is undeniably premium, but it’s comparable to having just one premium release per year on a gaming subscription service—which honestly isn’t much.

These days, shows are generally much cheaper to produce than games. A budget of $100 million for an entire season is on the higher end for TV shows. So, I’d rather compare it to movies instead.
AA games and indie games exist. That's the bulk of GP. Only one putting expensive games on there is MS, occasionally SEGA puts a AA+ game on there. Majority of stuff on GP is not $100 million budget games.
 

ChoosableOne

ChoosableAll
I have a subscription until the end of 2025, so please wait to rebel until then.

Joking aside, it's a great system for players, but I wonder how developers profit from this. I no longer feel like buying any indie games since they eventually end up on one of these subscription services(or amazon/epic). A recent example is Nine Sols. I was just about to buy the game, but then it came to gamepass. It worked out great for me, but is it just as good for the indie developers?

The interesting thing is, when an indie game comes to Gamepass, no one seems very happy about it; everyone is expecting big AAA games. This service(and PS Plus) has significantly devalued indie games.
 

SHA

Member
Anything indie is straight bad at the moment, it's hard to change that perception from the community and you can't just put the blame on gamepass.
 

A.Romero

Member
PS+ actually started it as it came out years before GP.

The only real difference is day one first party games. Big third party games almost never come on sub plan day one. And indie games may come to both PS+ and GP.


It's not mandatory.

But what I bet happens is MS is aggressive with GP, so they go around offering a deal to get the game on GP and all these smaller devs making noname indie games cant help but accept it when MS dangles the carrot in their face.
If they can't help but accept they don't have faith in their product.

In what world having more options to release is worse?
 

MacReady13

Member
If they can't help but accept they don't have faith in their product.

In what world having more options to release is worse?
More options for release is fine, but in this case Microsoft have basically trained their lap dogs to not buy games! That is not a great option going forward. If the future is Netflix, where stuff they don’t want to release physically is stuck on a sub service only to be removed at their discretion, that’s fucked.
 

Fabieter

Member
It was supposed to be an offer you can't refuse, The Godfather style

Once they got to 200 million subs or whatever their goal was, they could basically drive Nintendo and Sony out of business because they could afford to lose infinity money building up to that subscriber base and the competitors could not. This is why all the Netflix competitors have been hemorrhaging money but Netflix makes record profits year after year

Unfortunately for MS, they never got anyone outside of already existing Xbox owners to care or want to invest in the platform just to subscribe to video games

Netflix succeeded because you can use Netflix on anything. That was never going to work when Gamepass is restricted only to Xbox

The gaming industry is fortunate that MS's grand plan to monopolize and destroy gaming failed so spectacularly

Burn infinite money to drive your competion out is loss leading which is illegal.
 

Fabieter

Member
Offering discounts is illegal lol.

Loss leading is not inherently illegal, but its legality depends on the jurisdiction and the specific circumstances. Here's a breakdown:

What is Loss Leading?

Loss leading is a pricing strategy where a business sells a product at a price lower than its cost (a "loss leader") to attract customers, with the expectation that they will purchase other profitable products or services.

Legality by Jurisdiction

  • United States: Generally legal, but it can become illegal if used in a way that constitutes predatory pricing. This is when a company sells below cost to drive competitors out of the market and then raises prices once competition is reduced. Predatory pricing is prohibited under antitrust laws, like the Sherman Act and the Clayton Act.
  • European Union: Loss leading is restricted in some EU countries. For example, in France, selling products below cost (loss leading) is generally illegal, with some exceptions like liquidation sales.
  • United Kingdom: Loss leading is not explicitly illegal but could be challenged under the Competition Act 1998 if it harms market competition or consumers.
The poster suggested they could drive them out with infinite money loss which is not allowed.
 
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Loss leading is not inherently illegal, but its legality depends on the jurisdiction and the specific circumstances. Here's a breakdown:

What is Loss Leading?

Loss leading is a pricing strategy where a business sells a product at a price lower than its cost (a "loss leader") to attract customers, with the expectation that they will purchase other profitable products or services.

Legality by Jurisdiction

  • United States: Generally legal, but it can become illegal if used in a way that constitutes predatory pricing. This is when a company sells below cost to drive competitors out of the market and then raises prices once competition is reduced. Predatory pricing is prohibited under antitrust laws, like the Sherman Act and the Clayton Act.
  • European Union: Loss leading is restricted in some EU countries. For example, in France, selling products below cost (loss leading) is generally illegal, with some exceptions like liquidation sales.
  • United Kingdom: Loss leading is not explicitly illegal but could be challenged under the Competition Act 1998 if it harms market competition or consumers.
The poster suggested they could drive them out with infinite money loss which is not allowed.
MS is not doing any of this and its not relevant. They just raised the price last year and laid off people.
 
At the end of the day the "why" isn't really relevant if it isn't addressed. If they spend more than they earn it's still an issue.
There is a huge difference between spending more due to technological requirements for example and mismanagement, which includes overhiring and DEI.

I'm sure we'll see more strategies invented to bring in more money from games, and I'll tell you why.

A lot of people call it greed, but the reality is that $70 per copy in a one-time sales model doesn't bring in enough money to keep companies running. That's why you see so much MTX in paid games from companies like EA and Ubisoft. Microsoft's gaming software revenues are stale. They've had to give up and take big titles third party.
You are too focused on AAA. Go to the Play/App Store and examine the design philosophies behind those games. What I’m saying is that people learning game design and development are now being taught to implement monetization schemes and strategies to increase revenue as part of their school curriculum.

Sony has been highlighting in their financials that their first party software revenues are underperforming and that they're depending too heavily on their cut of third party revenue. If it weren't for third party revenue Sony wouldn't be able to operate at the scale they are today. Nintendo is the only company really surviving on their own output.
but can you see why the "WHY" is incredibly relevant, right?


For example, Spider-Man 2's narrative team was twice as large as SM1's, and I don't think the storytelling is twice as good, in fact is worse. and keep in mind this:
People are always the most expensive aspect of game development (or any other industry)


from the video:
Space Marine 2's budget was less than half of Doom Eternal's... WHY?





I'm not sure it's true that there's no need for day and date for Xbox. It's really all they have left now and it's because Microsoft took it there.
I'm not talking about Xbox. I'm talking in general. Day-and-date releases on a subscription service (any service) subtract from each game's revenue potential

That said, the economics of game development are what they are and Microsoft is going to have to go further into embracing other platforms to grow their addressable market.
The issue FOR XBOX is not about growing but compensating for what they have lost.

1. A decrease in console install base means less money (fewer people) buying games.
+
2. Game Pass has created an ecosystem which encourages people not to buy games, compounded by the first point.
=
destruction of the economy of gaming inside the Xbox´s ecosystem.


They need day and date on GP and PC to make enough money from their games
you got it backward:

Day-and-date games on Game Pass are always a subtraction from the game's revenue.


Day 1 on PC will have to expand to some day 1 on Sony and Nintendo's platforms as well.
Sony and/or Nintendo putting their games on PC on day one would be THE case of seeking growth (because their ecosystems have reached market saturation). But I'm telling you this: it will be a zero-sum game (just like Game Pass):

Game Pass´s growth has been at the expense of game sales.

The economics are already pushing Sony into doing things people thought they would never do. Sony's overall console customer base isn't exactly exploding with the demise of Xbox,
Xbox has been in decline for the last 10 years. Its current situation is just the tail end of that trend, meaning PlayStation has been consistently gaining "Xbox" users during that period. Therefore, we are not going to see exponential growth in PS console adoption. and of course there are other factors like PC gaming gaining popularity for example.

and we've seen them do stuff like create their own sub service and release first party games on PC. Seeing Lego Horizon on Switch and PC day 1 was hand-waved away by some here as Sony being forced to do it by Lego. But Lego didn't force Sony into a deal for the Horizon IP. It was also Sony testing the efficacy of day 1 games on other platforms.
and how do you think that turned out?

Releasing games everywhere is not a guarantee of success, and conversely, releasing games only on one platform is not a guarantee of failure.

All that is to say that the current flow from full price to sub service you outlined has already changed for some Xbox and PlayStation titles to include a release on multiple platforms step before discounting occurs.
you are confusing Day and Date releases on services like GP or PS+ to releasing games mutiplat...where you need to pay for them. i don't know why are you jumping between two different concepts that are not even the point of discussion:

Which is the effects of day and date releases on GP (or any other service)


It's going to have to expand to more titles unless the console userbase rapidly expands
There is no need for the console base to expand. The console market is around 150-170 million consoles, with maybe an additional 20-50 million in the next few decades from emerging markets. But that's it.

The console market can't sustain both Xbox and PlayStation. This is why Xbox is fading away. Even Nintendo couldn't sustain itself and had to shift to the handheld market.

, because people aren't going to keep accepting price increases for games to pay for the increased dev cost.
You know what also they are not going to keep accepting... yep, price increases for subscription services

At some point games need to cost less to access in order to get more people spending money. Thats why we see discounts later. Day and date on multiple platforms does it sooner and with higher overall returns.
the video I just linked.

and again, confusing Day and Date on game pass to mutiplat releases.

Not Sure what Tango has to do with it. It was already in limbo with the departure of its leader. But it does highlight that it's really no longer enough for a game to just make back its budget to be considered successful. A game now has to make enough money to fund its sequel. And in the case of a publisher-owned studio like Tango it has to pay for a portion of the ongoing overhead of the parent company.
You have been conflating multiplatform releases with day-and-date GP releases

This is Phil talking about multiplat releases of their own games:

we see an opportunity to utilize the other platforms as a place to just drive more business value out of those games, allowing us to invest in maybe future iterations of those,so sequels to those, or just other games like that in our portfolio. And when we don't damage Xbox and we can grow our business using what other platforms have to help us with that,we're going to do that.




So, as I stated earlier, releasing games everywhere is not a guarantee of success


It doesn't help that inside the Xbox´s ecosystems a game like Hi-Fi couldn't have the opportunity to:

"...make back its budget
"...make enough money to fund its seque
l"

WHY?
Because Game Pass kills a game's revenue potential
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Burn infinite money to drive your competion out is loss leading which is illegal.

You should contact Lina Khan about this while she's in office.


Joking aside, it's a great system for players, but I wonder how developers profit from this.

It varies by deal.

"[In] certain cases, we’ll pay for the full production cost of the game. Then they get all the retail opportunity on top of Game Pass. They can go sell it on PlayStation, on Steam, and on Xbox, and on Switch. [...] Sometimes the developer’s more done with the game and it’s more just a transaction of, 'Hey, we’ll put it in Game Pass if you’ll pay us this amount of money.'"

"Others want [agreements] more based on usage and monetization in whether it’s a store monetization that gets created through transactions, or usage. We’re open [to] experimenting with many different partners, because we don’t think we have it figured out. When we started, we had a model that was all based on usage. Most of the partners said, 'Yeah, yeah, we understand that, but we don’t believe it, so just give us the money upfront.'"


The interesting thing is, when an indie game comes to Gamepass, no one seems very happy about it; everyone is expecting big AAA games. This service(and PS Plus) has significantly devalued indie games.

The service hasn't devalued indie games, people's bloated expectations are at fault. Some are just not satisfied unless all 10 games released in a month on either GP or PS+ are AAA bangers from the last 3 to 6 months.

If anything, indies get a lot more exposure then they would otherwise. Just look at the glut of things that release on Steam daily, how many of them does anyone realistically even know about, let alone care? Having a prominent marketing slot as a game releasing on a service guarantees a significant number of eyes on a game, at least.
 

A.Romero

Member
More options for release is fine, but in this case Microsoft have basically trained their lap dogs to not buy games! That is not a great option going forward. If the future is Netflix, where stuff they don’t want to release physically is stuck on a sub service only to be removed at their discretion, that’s fucked.

How many Microsoft exclusive people there is? They are a distant third.

Everything is just especulation. You could easily say that without GP many indie studios would have gone out of business already.

Netflix is there (among many other services) and bluray can still be purchased.

Just the same: if studios thought they could make more money without GP they wouldn't publish their games there.

The service has been around almost a decade. Everyone in the know is aware of what the potential economic impact there is.

All of this without even touching upon that Nintendo, Sony, Ubisoft and their mothers have their own service.

I say let the market and developers decide what they want to do. Decisions like that can easily be reversed once their contracts with Microsoft are over.
 

rm082e

Member
When Microsoft said they would bring all first party titles to Game Pass on Day 1, they started training their audience to pay for Game Pass and not to buy games. The entire argument for Game Pass is that it's a better deal than buying games. If it's not, then why would it exist? If you have people getting access to more games at a lower price than they would spent on average buying games, simple arithmetic tells us it's going to mean less money for the developers on average. Bobby Kottick said in the ABK trial that Activision didn't put their games on Game Pass because they would loose money.

This is the same thing as iTunes replacing CD sales, then streaming services replacing iTunes. The audience spends less money than they used to, which means less money goes to the creators.

We've seen third party reporting on sales numbers showing the percentage of copies for multiplayer games on Xbox has shrunk and shrunk. At last year's GDC the talk was some developers saying they didn't even think it was worth making Xbox versions of multiplatform games anymore. Of course Microsoft is very careful in how they report their financials. They talk al ot about percentages and are very careful to avoid hard numbers. I can't blame them. No one wants to be a part of a sinking ship. If they were completely transparent about all the data, everyone would see Xbox is just withering away and it would only make the problem worse.

The core problem as I see it is simple - they bet that they could move Xbox into being the Netflix of video games. We've all known people who've paid for Netflix for months or even years without using it. When they feel bad about wasting that money, they go look and find a few shows to watch, get some value out of it, then they're reluctant to cancel it. Xbox was hoping for the same consumer attitude. From the ABK lawsuit we know they expected to be over 100 million subs by now. The last credible numbers I saw said they were around a third of that.

For the people who like Game Pass, get it while the gettin' is good. It's inevitably going to get price hikes to the point where it's about even cost wise with buying games, or it's going to go away entirely. Microsoft isn't in business to lose money.
 

Sooner

Member
By not including their 1st party day 1?

So then PS+ is actually the worst thing to happen to the industry.

No, because it was just an extra. Never meant to ve a predominant way to play games. Same with Nintendo.

Microsoft just decided to out their games out day one. The goal was to get enough subscribers they didn't need to try and sell their games. They just needed stuff good enough to rent.

Which, unsurprisingly, led to lower and lower quality first-party titles and taught their audience to not buy games, just rent. So anything not on GP crash and burned on Xbox, leading to fewer games in the platform. Which, also unsurprisingly, led to fewer people to invest in Xbox. Which led to Microsoft having to put their own first-party games on PlayStation just to make any money. Which, unsurprisingly again, led to Xbox consoles to sell even worse.

And now Halo, Gears, Flight Simulator and probably everything's else are now PlayStation games and no reasons left for Xbox to even exist outside of GamePass, which seems to be bleeding Microsoft money.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
???


uaaQ1uY.png
Once again, an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.

One thing is not like the others. Care to tell the class which one that is?
 
No, because it was just an extra. Never meant to ve a predominant way to play games. Same with Nintendo.

Microsoft just decided to out their games out day one. The goal was to get enough subscribers they didn't need to try and sell their games. They just needed stuff good enough to rent.

Which, unsurprisingly, led to lower and lower quality first-party titles and taught their audience to not buy games, just rent. So anything not on GP crash and burned on Xbox, leading to fewer games in the platform. Which, also unsurprisingly, led to fewer people to invest in Xbox. Which led to Microsoft having to put their own first-party games on PlayStation just to make any money. Which, unsurprisingly again, led to Xbox consoles to sell even worse.

And now Halo, Gears, Flight Simulator and probably everything's else are now PlayStation games and no reasons left for Xbox to even exist outside of GamePass, which seems to be bleeding Microsoft money.
In the context of the OP, the effect on 1st party games doesn’t matter for 3rd party devs.

In my opinion the console war was lost in the Xbox one era when the majority of people built up their digital library. GP was a strategy to offset that customer investment ‘deficit’. But that’s not the topic here still save that for another thread!

Edit: just saw the thread you posted and realised you’re just a rabid fanboy. Wish I hadn’t wasted my time here.
 
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vkbest

Member
1: no developer is forced to put their game into GamePass.
Directly? Maybe not, indirectly? sure.
2: game rentals were massive in the 90s, where people rented games instead of buying them.
I'm betting games were not $100-300 million in 90s
3: EA, Ubisoft and Sony all have their own subscription services with day 1 releases and dozens/hundreds of games included.
What Sony game released day 1?
 

RickMasters

Member
How does MS putting their games day 1 on their own service hurt devs or the industry though. Nintendo and Sony outsell Xbox at every turn so I do t really see how a service on the losing console that is o my in the losing console affects the two competitors that are beating it let alone hurt other devs. They don’t have to put their games in GP most games available for Xbox are not on game pass.
 

ChoosableOne

ChoosableAll
The service hasn't devalued indie games, people's bloated expectations are at fault. Some are just not satisfied unless all 10 games released in a month on either GP or PS+ are AAA bangers from the last 3 to 6 months.

If anything, indies get a lot more exposure then they would otherwise. Just look at the glut of things that release on Steam daily, how many of them does anyone realistically even know about, let alone care? Having a prominent marketing slot as a game releasing on a service guarantees a significant number of eyes on a game, at least.
The benefits on marketing are undeniable, but we already find out about many great indie games one way or another. Even before gamepass, there was an active indie game market, and people didn’t hesitate to pay $15-20 for these games. Now, even if prices drop to $3-5, no one wants to buy them, thinking “it’ll come to gamepass anyway". I want to play Animal Well and UFO 50, but I don’t want to spend money on them since they might come to gamepass. Same goes for Conscript, Crow Country and Lorelei. If it works for the devs, no problem; I’m happy with the way things are. However, if there are many people who think like the OP, they need to act accordingly.
 
When Microsoft said they would bring all first party titles to Game Pass on Day 1, they started training their audience to pay for Game Pass and not to buy games. The entire argument for Game Pass is that it's a better deal than buying games. If it's not, then why would it exist? If you have people getting access to more games at a lower price than they would spent on average buying games, simple arithmetic tells us it's going to mean less money for the developers on average. Bobby Kottick said in the ABK trial that Activision didn't put their games on Game Pass because they would loose money.

This is the same thing as iTunes replacing CD sales, then streaming services replacing iTunes. The audience spends less money than they used to, which means less money goes to the creators.

We've seen third party reporting on sales numbers showing the percentage of copies for multiplayer games on Xbox has shrunk and shrunk. At last year's GDC the talk was some developers saying they didn't even think it was worth making Xbox versions of multiplatform games anymore. Of course Microsoft is very careful in how they report their financials. They talk al ot about percentages and are very careful to avoid hard numbers. I can't blame them. No one wants to be a part of a sinking ship. If they were completely transparent about all the data, everyone would see Xbox is just withering away and it would only make the problem worse.

The core problem as I see it is simple - they bet that they could move Xbox into being the Netflix of video games. We've all known people who've paid for Netflix for months or even years without using it. When they feel bad about wasting that money, they go look and find a few shows to watch, get some value out of it, then they're reluctant to cancel it. Xbox was hoping for the same consumer attitude. From the ABK lawsuit we know they expected to be over 100 million subs by now. The last credible numbers I saw said they were around a third of that.

For the people who like Game Pass, get it while the gettin' is good. It's inevitably going to get price hikes to the point where it's about even cost wise with buying games, or it's going to go away entirely. Microsoft isn't in business to lose money.
That's where MS dropped the ball. They gambled that Gamepass would greatly expand the install base to where 100 million people giving them subscription money into perpetuity would ultimately trump the $70 one-off purchases. Instead their console business cratered and because they've based their entire identity around Gamepass now over the last decade, they have to pivot towards what is very obviously being a third party publisher. I'm sure they'd love to drop the 'day one' thing too but instead of doing that completely, they moved it to the highest tier. In reality what 'should' have happened is give the big tentpole titles at least 6-12 months to get sales, then put them on GPU as catalogue releases. Jim Ryan said day one didn't work for Playstation and they've got a considerably larger install base to work with.
 
worst thing that happened to xbox users too, they just dont realize it yet.
its the pretty much the reason papa spencer is forced to go full third party and their favorite plastic box is in life support currently.

Yes, because prior to GamePass, Xbox was doing swimmingly. Xbone was ahead of PS4 by millions of units IIRC.

GamePass and the shift to porting more games to other consoles are two of the main things keeping the hardware afloat.

A lot of people on GAF won’t be satisfied with anything other than the exit of Xbox from the hardware scene, leaving us just Sony for high end hardware and Nintendo for Nintendo hardware. Now if you want to talk about people not realizing impending disaster, there you go.
 

Brakum

Member
It's entirely optional so no. And no developer with two brain cells would ever put the games on gamepass due to someone saying it would lead to higher sales. If you're a developer and your deal with xbox wasnt 'you're gonna pay us upfront how much we think we might lose on lost sales' then you really shouldn't be in a position where you take business decisions.
 
worst thing that happened to xbox users too, they just dont realize it yet.
its the pretty much the reason papa spencer is forced to go full third party and their favorite plastic box is in life support currently.
Xbox has been bombing because they decided to do everything except make great games for 10+ years starting in the middle of the 360 gen. Their output has been a lot better this gen than last but it's too little too late.

People who think GP, a profitable service, tanked Xbox are clueless.
 

damidu

Member
Yes, because prior to GamePass, Xbox was doing swimmingly. Xbone was ahead of PS4 by millions of units IIRC.

GamePass and the shift to porting more games to other consoles are two of the main things keeping the hardware afloat.

A lot of people on GAF won’t be satisfied with anything other than the exit of Xbox from the hardware scene, leaving us just Sony for high end hardware and Nintendo for Nintendo hardware. Now if you want to talk about people not realizing impending disaster, there you go.
last time i checked series is doing even worse than xbone,
they are forced to go multiplatform, because gamepass isn't sustainable.
now their multi-platform strategy will pretty much fast-track their console collapse, which will ironically crater gamepass even more, as console is where their most subs are coming from.
they are in a a death spiral, it doesnt matter what people on gaf want or feel. they'll leave the hw space slowly, expecting gamepass to follow suit shortly after that.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
I absolutely agree. Especially about devaluation of games.
PC players were already used to cdkeys sites, deals and piracy. Now with GP, they are getting used to "I will wait to get it for free on Epic or GP".
So mid or even 7/10 games that would sell OK previously, will sell shit now because players are waiting to play it for free.
And that devaluation crosses towards full priced AAA games too because why would someone pay 70$ for this now, if they can play 10 other games on GP.

This ruins the market
 
I absolutely agree. Especially about devaluation of games.
PC players were already used to cdkeys sites, deals and piracy. Now with GP, they are getting used to "I will wait to get it for free on Epic or GP".
So mid or even 7/10 games that would sell OK previously, will sell shit now because players are waiting to play it for free.
And that devaluation crosses towards full priced AAA games too because why would someone pay 70$ for this now, if they can play 10 other games on GP.

This ruins the market
So is Sony ruining gaming with PS+ too?
 
Same thing just that ps players are not yet used to act like GP beggars.
but with time, this will change. Sony shouldn't follow what microsoft is doing
People have been "waiting to get free games" from Sony for almost 15 years now. If anything MS followed Sony lol.
 
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