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[Rocket Punch]

:lol

I hereby proclaim this thread "Drama Queen Central". The hate some of you guys sprew is just mind blowing. The DS has had a decent launch. That's all we know. Everything else is PURE WILD SPECULATION. PSP will sell, so will DS. Nobody will die. No meteorite will strike the earth and forever divide the land between DS and PSP hemispheres. Breathe and go out. Go play!

 

[calder]

This is the underlining hardware behind the analog "nub" of the PSP. As you can see, there's only 4 communication ports to it. That means 2^4 = 16 possible outputs it can produce, or 16 different directions of movement (and apparently the degree of movement isn't measured from the reports I've read). Since a regular touchpad has 8 possible directions, that makes the analog nub just a touchpad with twice the number of buttons. The Xbox touchpad has 16 possible directions I believe, so it's just an touch-"nub" equivalent to an Xbox controller but harder to control. For all intent and purposes the PSP has no analog control method either, so you can complain all you want about the touchscreen, but in the end it's still something versus nothing.

My opinion is that the touchscreen will allow for the playing of FPS's far, far superior on a DS than on a PSP, making it a lot more popular in western markets than the PSP.

In a thread chock-full of astonishingly stupid posts, this still stands out. :lol

*hopes the thread stays unlocked for another few hundred replies*

 

[Spike]

The thing I question is how much of the portable market Sony will really steal away from Nintendo.

Nintendo doesn't really have a monopoly on the portable market for the simple fact that cellphones exist and are a growing market. So the question is, who is Sony gaining customers from? Are they actually selling to GB owners or potential DS owners, or are they selling to PS2 fans or cellphone gamers?

Yes, the two biggest systems in Japan are the PS2 and GB. I understand this. But, how many PS2 owners actually own a GB? Are they jumping to the PSP side, or is the PSP selling to the PS2-only owners over there?

I don't have the answer to this, and neither does anyone else at this point. This simply cannot be predicted until about this time next year, when both systems will have systems on the shelves as well as sizeable libraries of titles to choose from. Things will be alot clearer next year.

 

[Hollywood]

 

[JackFrost2012]

Die Squirrel Die has pretty much said what I've been feeling ... after spending time with the PSP. it's obvious that (just like the media wonks say) the DS and the PSP aren't in competition. Because, honestly, there is no competition. Yes, of course Nintendo has a $200 GBA2 in development in some R&D lab somewhere for release in late 2005, but with the DS taking off like it seems to be doing it actually hurts Nintendo in the long run.

In late 2005 and especially 2006, the PSP is going to have second- and third-generation games far in advance of even the launch titles. This will leave Nintendo in the inevitable position of either:

1) continuing to support the technologically weaker DS against the increasingly entrenched PSP, keeping their technologically competitive GBA2 under wraps. (You can argue dual screens and touch! all you want, but on a pure horsepower basis there's absolutely no argument that the PSP smokes the DS where it counts, which is graphics and music. It looks better and sexier, therefore, it is.)

2) bringing out the GBA2 as a system which can "truly" compete against the PSP - but effectively killing off the DS' after 1-2 years. There's no question that a "true" next-generation Game Boy would be the death knell of the DS, as developers and Nintendo both focus on the purported "PSP-killer."

I love my DS and I'm looking forward to tons of games on it, but then, I'm a crazy diehard gamer. Increasingly, the DS is looking like what it probably is: a stopgap measure intended to harm the PSP, but one which may increasingly shackle Nintendo's hands. It's like when you start hooking up with a girl cause you're single and nothing else is going on in your life, and then suddenly find yourself trapped in a 9-month relationship and meet this other girl you actually are interested in having a relationship with, but your casual hookup has developed to the point where you can't easily extricate yourself. It can only end in tears.

Marketwise, the Nintendo DS occupies the same place as Sega's 32X: an "everything-and-the-kitchen-sink" technological "upgrade" that's really no upgrade at all - and that will harm their standing with consumers once their "real" next system comes out.

 

[Monk]

The thing is that itsn't competing with the GBA directly. The GBA has been selling like the ds hasn't even been released. I think that the DS will have continued support either way.

Why, because even if the DS dies as a gaming machine, it can still own as a applicatioln device for things like dictionaries, paint programs, hell it could be an awesome tool to teach someone to write in another language with the touch screen.

I am kind of stunned that the ds sold so well in the face of the psp in Japan. It looks like there are people genuinely looking for a unique experience as promised by the ds.

 

[JackFrost2012]

It looks like there are people genuinely looking for a unique experience as promised by the ds.

But not, with the launch titles, delivered.

 

[Monk]

Which is why there is such a backlash on the ds. People wanted a new experience, the ds didn't deliver. People wanted awesome games, the ds didn't deliver that either.

The only thing the ds delivered at the moment is potential. And a lot of gamers are pissed off because of that.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Man this is weak. Nowhere did I say that NDS "won"...I just merely stated several VALID reasons why Nintendo will be happy with NDS regardless of sales.

And what's up with people suddenly thinking that this is NDS vs PSP. No. GBA and *it's* successor should be factored in as well. Nowhere did I say that NDS isn't Nintendo's next portable, because obviously...it is, but as far as it being the next GameBoy this just isn't the case. People say that NDS being a 3RD pillar is just PR BS...maybe if you look at it from that p-o-v, but what should Nintendo do, release GBA's successor right NOW to compete head to head with PSP? At the sacrifice of profit, R&D & battery life? Or how 'bout they wait and give Sony an unchallenged headstart again? Why do that when they can continue the GameBoy line with the current GBA, create a new market (possibly just as profitable) with a different non-GameBoy machine (call it a stop-gap if you must, but don't call it Nintendo's last-ditch effort...'cos it most certainly is not) that not only prevents the PSP from coming to market totally unchallenged but also forces Sony to take more losses on PSP than they initially planned. And yeah, Sony is making all of the parts in-house...that doesn't mean they're not taking a loss...in fact...it means they're taking ALL the loses.

PSP has been planned by Sony for a while, Nintendo threw NDS together in a short time-frame, but they got it to market faster, cheaper, more profitable and more unique than PSP. And believe me, Nintendo didn't lose that much money on R&D on NDS...touch screen tech & wireless isn't company breaking R&D, and in fact I see the R&D they spent on NDS helping with R&D in future Nintendo systems so it's money well spent. If Nintendo had went PSP's route they would basically have to undersell like Sony is, spend more money on R&D, kill thier profits, cut short GBA, have to deal with battery issues like Sony still is now and for what, in the end...Sony would win that kind of a race 'cos even if this miracle GameBoy were to come out now, people would still consider Sony's PSP better 'cos Sony is *known* for electronics...there are people out there who STILL believe PS2 is more powerful than GAMECUBE. So I think Nintendo going the profitable route, all while keeping the PSP from being unchallenged *and* offering something different than PSP was the better choice for them business wise.

NDS aside...I think Sony's gonna have a tough time with PSP regardless. People talk about the extra features on PSP and bla bla bla, but is Sony really looking to kill off thier other portable electronic lines just to benifit the PSP? I mean, why else have they been so reluctant about MP3 features? WB's miniDVD players are coming out next year, and I don't care if UMD is "better" or not...if people want portable movies...it'll be miniDVD before an all new Sony format. PSP is gonna have to rely on it's GAME library...but I see Sony having a tough time if they're gonna continue with thier current PSP philosophy. They think once PSP hits that portable gamers are suddenly going to buy five times as many games as they did on GameBoy. Let's face it, the attach rate's on portables aren't as nice as on consoles...Sony thinks they can come in and change that, but with more expensive games? Games that look like thier console counterparts? Bringing the console graphics to portables??? Pffft...portables will *ALWAYS* be secondary to consoles. Always! I'm not saying Sony can't do it, but then that spreads gaming dollars thinner in other area's. I mean, if they're gonna offer the same kind of games on PSP as what's currently on home consoles than are people gonna buy two versions of the same game? If not, then which will they choose and how does that choice effect Sony's standings in either market???

Look at Nintendo, I think one of the reasons they've lost ground on the console front is 'cos they've been spreading their resources out across different platforms/markets too thin. One way it's bad 'cos their home systems haven't been doing so well, but at the same time, without their possition in the portable market they wouldn't be as profitable as they are today 'cos they could care less about saving face and more about staying afloat/making money! Sony is losing money on every PSP sold to the point where they absolutly HAVE to magically raise the attach rates on a market that traditionally doesn't have high tie-in ratio's to break even...if they have to go that route than aren't their resources gonna be spread faily thin too (not to mention pressure from Xenon on the console front) all *without* the profitability of Nintendo??? I know Sony will "eventually" start making money on PSP (if/when they gain good marketshare), but with the money they're spending on PSP, "Transformation 60", UMD, BR, The Cell, PS3 developement, buying MGM, etc, etc...it just makes me wonder WHEN Sony is gonna stop spending to save face and actually start creating some worthwhile profits on these efforts and stay afloat.

Again, nowhere am I saying that PSP is a failure or that NDS is the winner. I just think that Sony's gonna have a tough time in this fight.

 

[Monk]

I don't know what was worse, the retarded bullet point thing you did, or that essay you just wrote. Do you honestly think anyone will be happy to read that?

 

[lexi]

I think the only remaining question after this trainwreck of a thread is why Pedigree Chum is named after Dog food?

 

[Amir0x]

I don't know what was worse, the retarded bullet point thing you did, or that essay you just wrote. Do you honestly think anyone will be happy to read that?

Or that the essay is so horribly misguided and full of holes...

 

[DrGAKMAN]

I don't know what was worse, the retarded bullet point thing you did, or that essay you just wrote. Do you honestly think anyone will be happy to read that?

You're right. I mean, why should I discuss video games on a...video game message board??? It just makes no sense!

Thanks for...showing me the way.

I think I'm gonna go write a song about how you've turned my life around Junior Member.

 

[EviLore]

You're right. I mean, why should I discuss video games on a...video game message board??? It just makes no sense!

Thanks for...showing me the way.

I think I'm gonna go write a song about how you've turned my life around Junior Member.

Shouldn't have said it, mang. Shouldn't have said it.

 

[mashoutposse]

I don't know if the DS has won yet, but somebody just won my DS auction on eBay :lol

Better to sell now while the full value of thing can be recouped (and more; got $200+ for my used one) -- I'm sure I'll be able to get it again for less than MSRP within 90 days. It's a nice piece of hardware, but games-wise, I'm not missing much for now.

 

[mashoutposse]

BTW DrGAKMAN, as a gamer wouldn't you prefer $400 hardware for $200 (PSP) over $125 hardware for $150 (NDS)?

I don't care that Nintendo managed to make a profit on hardware that was thrown together as a last minute response to the competition, and if I were to care, I wouldn't be thinking positive thoughts about that situation. In fact, in spite of the fact that the NDS really is good hardware, it's going to be the huge and immediately conspicuous gap in perceived value that will make the PSP a bigger success than the DS when all is said and done.

 

[fse]

PSP's hype... will be big, NDS might still get the kiddies and hardcore Nintendo fans though.
And there's also the Gizmondo which actually is neat.

 

[Hitokage]

I see a lot of people complaining that the touch screen is just useless and will not be used in any meaninful way. That is to be seen. However, compared to the PSP, it is without a doubt superior. I'll explain: first, look at this picture:

This is the underlining hardware behind the analog "nub" of the PSP. As you can see, there's only 4 communication ports to it. That means 2^4 = 16 possible outputs it can produce, or 16 different directions of movement (and apparently the degree of movement isn't measured from the reports I've read). Since a regular touchpad has 8 possible directions, that makes the analog nub just a touchpad with twice the number of buttons. The Xbox touchpad has 16 possible directions I believe, so it's just an touch-"nub" equivalent to an Xbox controller but harder to control. For all intent and purposes the PSP has no analog control method either, so you can complain all you want about the touchscreen, but in the end it's still something versus nothing.

My opinion is that the touchscreen will allow for the playing of FPS's far, far superior on a DS than on a PSP, making it a lot more popular in western markets than the PSP. The use of RTS games could hypothetically open up totally new sectors of the market (e.g. S. Korea). A port of Starcraft and a bunch of other RTSs gives the DS a much wider selection of potential killer apps than the PSP could hope to obtain. Plus it has every game the GBA has. On the other hand, I'm of the opinion that the PSP will get little other than ports since it has nothing worthwhile to offer over the PS2 except being portable, and in some cases less since it has no real analog control method.

Sony is out of it's league here IMO. Unlike Microsoft, who's Xbox offered Internet gaming and a HD alongside better graphics relative to the PS2 (and of course Halo as well ), the PSP only offers better graphics over the DS, and less control and battery life to boot, and apparently no killer apps. While graphics certain will draw its converts, it alone, as Xbox has demostrated, means nothing in the big picture.

Yes, of course the PSP also offers movies and mp3 playback. But you'll have to buy those movies (brand new media means buying a PSP copy of everything you may already have), and with a highly limited potential market I see virtually no movies at all unless the PSP takes off, which I don't see either. Audio playback is a joke: memory cards are expensive as hell with a 1GB memory card costing hundreds, versus a Ipod or even one of those cheap Ipod clones it's much too expensive. Only games matter in the end, and PSP isn't delievering there, and has less capability to do so over the DS. In short isn't appealing other than being good to look at despite what all you PSP supporters say. People, at least me, won't buy a gaming device merely because it looks good, instead they buy what they feel will entertain them, and that appears to be the DS.

1 - Data
2 - Command
3 - Not used
4 - Ground
5 - +5V
6 - Att Select
7 - Clock
8 - Not used
9 - Acknowledge

ONLY ONE PIN! OMG DUALSHOCK IS 2 DIRECTIONAL

 

[Hitokage]

STUNNING BREAKTHROUGH IN ENGINEERING:

Dual Potentiometer interface:
1 - Ground
2 - +? V
3 - X axis
4 - Y axis

ONLY 4 PINS

 

[Drinky Crow]

I don't care about Sony's (or Nintendo's) bloody PROFITABILITY. I want the best bang for my buck, and the more the manufacturer has to take as a loss to get me the best, the better.

 

[EviLore]

But what about the ONE CONSOLE FUTURE, doug? Surely profitability should be factored in to some degree.

 

[-SRV-]

I want the best bang for my buck, and the more the manufacturer has to take as a loss to get me the best, the better.

Pillage and rape 'em all? Leave empty husks of companies, people without pensions, mass unemployment after the market declines?

 

[The End]

I've got a bold prediction:

Both the PSP and the DS will do well in the next year.

 

[teiresias]

Now, now Hitokage, we don't want HyperionX to not come back at all do we? Though, you'd think he'd realize that even old as hell PS/2 keyboards on PC's use serial rather than parallel communication.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Hey, half these companiees are subsidized by my tax dollars, anyhow. They can use their giant corporate brains to figure out profitability by making the kind of games I'll willingly drop $55 on and use THAT to smooth over the losses they hafta payout to keep things on the cutting edge.

Seriously, though, all I ask for is a little texture filtering and decent hardware alpha support. Nintendo didn't want to pay for it. Fuck 'em.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Pillage and rape 'em all? Leave empty husks of companies, people without pensions, mass unemployment after the market declines?

Pension plans died under Reagan. The rest of the problems with corporations will exist whether or not people demand the most for their dollar.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

But what about the ONE CONSOLE FUTURE, doug?

Interesting point. DS and PSP have shattered the ONE HANDHELD PRESENT that was early November.

 

[-SRV-]

Pension plans died under Reagan. The rest of the problems with corporations will exist whether or not people demand the most for their dollar.

Blame it on Reagan! :lol Damn! Why didn't Clinton or the two Bushes bring it back? Why didn't Kerry run on that?

True, corporations will always have their problems. But "most for their dollar" is a VERY subjective benchmark. I have two PSPs on preorder (acutally, one will be a gift to my sister-in-law), but the DS is more gaming for MY dollar. YMMV.

 

[Hitokage]

Now, now Hitokage, we don't want HyperionX to not come back at all do we? Though, you'd think he'd realize that even old as hell PS/2 keyboards on PC's use serial rather than parallel communication.

It's not just digital communication here either. With a potentiometer you get variable voltage output.

 

[teiresias]

It's not just digital communication here either. With a potentiometer you get variable voltage output.

Yes, I'm aware of that (though I'm not sure what device you're actually using as an example for the potentiometer system pinout you listed as I don't see any pic or anything). But once you get that analog signal you have to digitize it and get it into your processor somehow - but that doesn't necessarily happen near the pad, so we're not sure if those four connectors under the analog disc are for an analog signal to take it to some A-to-D converter or it's a digital connection (I'd guess analog at that point, but I'm not sure obviously).

 

[Hitokage]

Well, the Dualshock uses a rotational potentiometer for each axis in an analog stick, and while each of those uses 3 connectors on the dualshock, you'd only need 4 total if you shared the ground and supply voltage between them. My 4 pin post was more of a proof of concept than an actual PSP pinout.

 

[Broshnat]

IAWTT

DS will slaughter the PSP

 

[Shiggy]

Did Jonathan Frankes buy a Xbox 2 or a Nintendo Revolution/DS? OK, it doesn't make sense, but do Star Trek people don't like touch screens and innovative things?^^

 

[duckroll]

Ok here's my entire take on this issue. This is the opinion I've had before the DS was even released, and after the PSP is released I stand by it all the more.

In the short run (let's say within the entire year of 2005) the DS is king. In terms of sales there is no doubt at all and in terms of actual real support from developers and titles released instead of simply being announced there is also no doubt. Nintendo fans will flock to the DS just as they have flocked to the GBC and the GBA. Will these fans be impressed? That's another story entirely, but for a short term analysis that doesn't really matter. The gimmick of the touch screen will be effective in luring in the crowds simply due to the appeal of how you "play" the games and the DS will be the new "toy" in the market. And I mean toy in every sense of the word, it's fun, it's gimmicky, it's kiddie.

What about the PSP? The PSP isn't a short-term gimmick device out to lure the kiddies, it's a solid multimedia device that is geared towards the "in" crowd. Tech-geeks, young adults, PS2 owners. It'll take awhile for the masses to adapt to the PSP and understand that there's actually a new competitor in the handheld GAMES market, but there's no doubt that the great graphics and various multimedia functions the PSP offers -will- attract the mainstream. It will attract those who have a PS2, and it will attract those who want a cool new portable device.

What will happen in the long term? As long as the PSP survives the initial period it needs to draw the masses (say about 6 months) without turning into a complete flop or killing Sony financially, Nintendo will have a serious problem. The problem will not be that the PSP is selling MORE than the DS, the problem will be that they have designed themselves into a corner. In a year or say 2 years, there'll be a very complete PSP and DS library of games. But by then, the DS will look like complete and utter shit compared to the PSP once both systems have reached their peak and developers have gotten the hang of getting the most out of the systems.

Now with the GBA or the GBC, Nintendo always had the advantage of being 100% backwards compartible and instantly have a library of tons of solid games for any new handheld launch. They won't have the same luxury with the next one, because it will NOT be compartible with DS games. I'm certain of this, why? Because of the two-screen/touch-screen gimmick in the DS. Gimmicks only work once, the next system isn't going to be a dual-screen/touch-screen system unless Nintendo is stupid. Instead to truly compete with the PSP or the PSP2, Nintendo will need a killer handheld which surpasses the PSP in technology. But Nintendo will be starting from square one, and this time Sony will have the upper hand with a large PSP library which will also most likely be compartible with the PSP2 if they decide to release a new system.

This means that anything made during the Nintendo DS period will be rendered completely irrelevent. Nintendo cannot use any of the experience or software in this entire period in a future war. Anything made on the DS can only be played on the DS and because of the huge technological gap between the DS and the PSP, I just don't think the DS is going to be around or on the top of Nintendo's agenda for very long. That's pretty much a big waste isn't it? Sony has entered the market with the PSP with a very clear exit strategy. Their gameplan might not have been all that clear, but what is clear is that they know that when the time comes for the PSP to move on to the PSP2, none of the PSP's library or the PSP's functionalities will be lost in the next generation. Nintendo on the other hand has a very clear gameplan with the DS on how to capture the market from launch but no real plan that I can see for staying in the market for long or even exiting gracefully.

So to sum it up, I think that in 2005, the DS will be king in terms of sales and in terms of actual quality software released. But in the long run, 2006 and beyond, unless something changes right now, Sony will win by default simply by outlasting and outsurviving Nintendo's aggressive "now" strategy.

 

[Moegames]

Hahahahahaha this thread is halarious and some of you teenagers are pathetic when it comes to someone saying something bad about your Nintendo ... geezus glad i enjoy other things in life then to sit in front of a pc 24/7 and argue over ridiculous things such as this...psp's analong stick :lol

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Now with the GBA or the GBC, Nintendo always had the advantage of being 100% backwards compartible and instantly have a library of tons of solid games for any new handheld launch. They won't have the same luxury with the next one, because it will NOT be compartible with DS games. I'm certain of this, why? Because of the two-screen/touch-screen gimmick in the DS. Gimmicks only work once, the next system isn't going to be a dual-screen/touch-screen system unless Nintendo is stupid.

...

This means that anything made during the Nintendo DS period will be rendered completely irrelevent. Nintendo cannot use any of the experience or software in this entire period in a future war.

If the masses deem two screens and a touch screen a gimmick, will it matter that the next system can't play software requiring those features? It will still play the continuing library of GBA games.

On the other hand, if the masses actually like the two screens and a touch screen, people would stop calling it a gimmick and there's no reason that couldn't be incorporated into a future Game Boy.


EDIT: Actually, here's a thought. DS has two 256x192 screens, right? Well, if the next Game Boy were to have a single touch screen that's, say, 512x288, it could display the two DS screens side by side and still be compatible. It would uncenter things and cause games that used the vertical setup well to look off, but hey.