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House of the Dragon S2 |OT| Blood for Blood, Fire to Fire (no book discussion)
- Thread starter EviLore
- Start date
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Absolutely amazing setpiece. Just an awe-inspiring spectacle. Still upset that HBO no longer lets you stream in 4k hdr with atmos sound if you are subbed to their TV service. serves me right for using my brother's time warner account all these years lol
It was great to see competent Cole for once. it was a legit smart plan, and I like how Aemond taunted his brother into showing up uninvited. The battle itself was incredible, but man I am not a fan of writing this season. The way the grandma went down was just silly. She had multiple opportunities to escape but she goes back in all YOLO. Why? Surely she doesnt think she can take on a giant dragon with an injured tiny dragon of her own. And of course, the end where this giant thing comes out of nowhere to bite her dragon in the neck. Just like he did in the first season. Except it was above the clouds there and this time hes conveniently hiding behind a castle. Come on. Could they not have written something better here than another cheap jump scare?
It really sucks how literally every episode this season is full of these really bad netflix/network tv like writing moments. The first episode had no security in the queen's room. Second episode had that moronic plan to infiltrate as a twin assassin. Third episode had the equally stupid AC stealth mission as she disguises herself to go talk to her bestie. And now, this amazing battle just ends in a suicide run when there are so many other ways it couldve been written. If shes not one to run from a battle then write something else that gives her a more dignified death. She's supposed to be there because shes more experienced than those two young boys. And yet she gets her ass handed to her.
And of course, she will die from the fall while aegon may yet live. just really inconsistent writing from a show that was air tight in the first season. they pulled me back in after those horrendous final few seasons of GoT and now im seeing the same cracks emerge despite the amazing spectacle. I think the showrunner Miguel Sapochnick leaving has hurt this show.
It was great to see competent Cole for once. it was a legit smart plan, and I like how Aemond taunted his brother into showing up uninvited. The battle itself was incredible, but man I am not a fan of writing this season. The way the grandma went down was just silly. She had multiple opportunities to escape but she goes back in all YOLO. Why? Surely she doesnt think she can take on a giant dragon with an injured tiny dragon of her own. And of course, the end where this giant thing comes out of nowhere to bite her dragon in the neck. Just like he did in the first season. Except it was above the clouds there and this time hes conveniently hiding behind a castle. Come on. Could they not have written something better here than another cheap jump scare?
It really sucks how literally every episode this season is full of these really bad netflix/network tv like writing moments. The first episode had no security in the queen's room. Second episode had that moronic plan to infiltrate as a twin assassin. Third episode had the equally stupid AC stealth mission as she disguises herself to go talk to her bestie. And now, this amazing battle just ends in a suicide run when there are so many other ways it couldve been written. If shes not one to run from a battle then write something else that gives her a more dignified death. She's supposed to be there because shes more experienced than those two young boys. And yet she gets her ass handed to her.
And of course, she will die from the fall while aegon may yet live. just really inconsistent writing from a show that was air tight in the first season. they pulled me back in after those horrendous final few seasons of GoT and now im seeing the same cracks emerge despite the amazing spectacle. I think the showrunner Miguel Sapochnick leaving has hurt this show.
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Alicents kids, the King and his brother are certainly villainous. I think Deamon is someone of a villain, as he is wholly focused on his own interest, which will probably cause some disaster in the end.
Thinking about this more, I bet they were drawing a parallel between her choice to stay and Lucerys choice to flee in S1. Maybe she knew she couldn't outrun Vhagar (the specific dynamics of dragons are a bit vague) so she chose to fight. You'd think dropping the king in a ball of fire would be a pretty good reason to bug out since it's likely Aemond would stay to check on the King (how much Rhenys would know of their squabbles, seems unlikely she is up to date on it).
I think they wanted her to girlboss but they also had to adhere to the broad strokes of the story, it jars at times. She wasn't easily ambushed, she fought one dragon successfully, she wasn't hounded, she knowingly went back. No fear, no regrets, sadly, no real emotion either.
Nah, Aegon II is nowhere near peak villain status, not like Joffrey or Cersi/Jaime. Aemond is a weak villain since his actions are pretty well justified. Good character, but weak villain. Daemon is certainly villianesque but he's so easily shut down by Rhaenyra he isn't really much of a threat.
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You do need someone to murder in cold blood or act ruthlessly to some extent.
I think that helps. Giving everyone understandable motivations, casting everyone in shades of grey, having a loose morality (Rhenys, for example, popping up from the floor and crushing HUNDREDS at Aegon IIs coronation, is that despicably evil or completely justifiable since her nephew Aegon was usurping her niece Rhaenyra's crown?), and a bit of a wandering focus (deliberately so) as to who the "hero" of the story is, that makes it hard to have a pure character driven narrative that is as engaging as what we got with GoT. Plus HoD lacks truely charismatic witty characters like Tyrion or Littlefinger, or people you can project yourself into like the Stark kids or Dany.
If HoD was more locked in to Alicent or Rhaenyra and we saw the other side as straight evil, then I think it could work better just having folks plot, scheme, and backstab each other in a soap opera way.
But I want to see them FIGHT!
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
Rhaenys is fucking awesome. Love her character. I don't get why she decided to go back in though. Seemed totally illogical since she already did what she set out to do and could've just went back to Dragonstone easy peasy.
Episode 3:
the ease at which everyone sneaks into fortified locations is getting to be a bit much. Kind of a ridiculous plan as well.
Daemon’s Souls: Harrenhall was cool but far too short and uneventful. Need Daemon in full armor resting at a bonfire before the season’s end.
the ease at which everyone sneaks into fortified locations is getting to be a bit much. Kind of a ridiculous plan as well.
Daemon’s Souls: Harrenhall was cool but far too short and uneventful. Need Daemon in full armor resting at a bonfire before the season’s end.
Technically if she left a dragon back there, the castle would then fall. I'd assume hitting the king himself is worth the loss of a small castle but who knows. If anything she should have turned back just to make sure the job was done.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
Could've also been a calculated gamble. Knowing if she takes out Vhagar the war is not technically over, but it probably gives Rhaenyra the driver's seat to win it because team green would have no counter to her side's dragons if Vhagar falls.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
That armor is the best fucking armor ive seen and they have only used it twice in the show. It's taken straight out a souls game.
And yes, there is too much sneaking around in the first three episodes. They have zero security in every castle.
I dunno, it would be the height of hubris to think ANY other dragon, other than maybe Daemon on Caraxes, could take Vhagar in a 1 on 1 fight. I'm actually not really sure how much the "pilot" even matters. That saddle thing with all those straps and levers doesn't seem like it does anything other than give a light suggestion to the dragon
Would taking out just Aegon II end the struggle? Aemond is a pretty viable candidate himself. In the show he's the only real heir after Prince Jaeharys was killed. But I think if she punched dwn Aegon and fled back to Dragonstone it would have been a victory lap for the Blacks, 100%.
As it is, they traded the inept Aegon for the faaaaar more competent Aemond AND lost their #2 dragon in the process. Sure, the Blacks are down a good dragon as well, but only Daemond has a really viable battle dragon for the Blacks, all their others are young or too old (or are riderless), though I guess Baela has a decent steed against humans.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
They still have the dragon that Daemon uncovered in season 1. That thing is huge. Not sure if it officially was claimed by anyone though. They'd have to get someone else to ride it and double team Vhagar 2 on 1 to take him down. Or just kill Aemond some other way.I dunno, it would be the height of hubris to think ANY other dragon, other than maybe Daemon on Caraxes, could take Vhagar in a 1 on 1 fight. I'm actually not really sure how much the "pilot" even matters. That saddle thing with all those straps and levers doesn't seem like it does anything other than give a light suggestion to the dragon
Would taking out just Aegon II end the struggle? Aemond is a pretty viable candidate himself. In the show he's the only real heir after Prince Jaeharys was killed. But I think if she punched dwn Aegon and fled back to Dragonstone it would have been a victory lap for the Blacks, 100%.
As it is, they traded the inept Aegon for the faaaaar more competent Aemond AND lost their #2 dragon in the process. Sure, the Blacks are down a good dragon as well, but only Daemond has a really viable battle dragon for the Blacks, all their others are young or too old (or are riderless), though I guess Baela has a decent steed against humans.
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I think the other Dragon is bigger or as big as Vhagar and has no rider. But it is hard to remember as I don't think you have seen it much this season.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
She was there to defend the castle, that job certainly wasn’t done.
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She was doing her duty. And she was resigned to her fate. She has been one of the most honorable characters in the whole show.
newtypepilot
Member
The dragon "dance" was cool and well done visually but yeah I agree that the writing this season has been weak. Even though we didn't have people sneaking in undetected in episode 4, we now have vhagar having max level stealth. They went great lengths to emphasize the size difference between Vhagar and the rest of the dragons and somehow it managed to ambush Rhaenys twice. wtf? Cole's plan is actually pretty stupid because he and Aemond could've told Aegon about it and still have a 2 on 1 fight. And now Aegon is dead. Good job, "kingmaker". So Aemond succeeds him now? but I'm not sure how would sit with houses in Team Green given it's pretty clear Aemond attacked Aegon.
And Rhaenrya told no one or left no one in charge while she's gone? wtf? That's pretty out of character. It's pretty clear it was written this way in order to force drama in dragonstone. She teleported to King's Landing previous episode but now she returns only after the bickering within her council . It's just lazy.
And Rhaenrya told no one or left no one in charge while she's gone? wtf? That's pretty out of character. It's pretty clear it was written this way in order to force drama in dragonstone. She teleported to King's Landing previous episode but now she returns only after the bickering within her council . It's just lazy.
Yeah, I need to go through the book and make a dragon list to keep these things straight. Very spoilery for the show of course so I'll stick it in the full spoiler thread when I get some time to compile it.
Actually, now that I think of it, the "faux history" tome supposedly presented to Joffrey (World of Ice and Fire?) already has this, IIRC, gotta check when I get home.
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cormack12
Gold Member
Loved the episode.
I think Aegon is still alive, one to draw the parallels between how he and Viserys will rule in ill health. And two, to possibly strengthen what Alicent thinks of the last words 'to unite the realm' as I am anticipating a sudden rush of support for greens on the back of this episode.
Cole needs to seriously die. Why do I think Aemond is going to kill him. Team Black really needs a win here, I'm not sure how they get one from this position though.
I think Aegon is still alive, one to draw the parallels between how he and Viserys will rule in ill health. And two, to possibly strengthen what Alicent thinks of the last words 'to unite the realm' as I am anticipating a sudden rush of support for greens on the back of this episode.
Cole needs to seriously die. Why do I think Aemond is going to kill him. Team Black really needs a win here, I'm not sure how they get one from this position though.
BearNecessity
Banned
Probably not that hard if it only flies at night.
Werewolf Jones
Member
Wasn't just the action scene... The entire episodes direction just felt better. The wheels of fate are turning.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
A shame this is the last episode being directed by Alan Taylor.
en.wikipedia.org
House of the Dragon - Wikipedia
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I guess you could say they are dragon you back in.
BattleScar
Member
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion given the context of season 1. We all knew what these characters were going on, and their behaviour tracks pretty much as you'd expect based on that.
Episode 2 is basically showing us that Otto is about the only person who really knows what he's doing.
Ideally, she’s been able to take out one dragon, with the king in it. That’s enough to harm the Greens. Then she also has info to spread that Aemond killed his brother, which would also do a ton of damage if she survived to carry the news to Dragonstone and beyond.
It’d certainly cause massive issues for Alicent et al if Aemond got outed as a kinslayer
Instead I watched in disbelief as she went back with an injured dragon to tangle once again with a much bigger opponent. Doesn’t make sense.
Putonahappyface
Member
Those dragon scenes were on par with the episode "The Long Night" from Game of Thrones in my opinion.
Having listened to some interviews, I THINK the idea they were going with is Rhaenys goes back because A. she might actually win and B. if she fights and dies it will galvanize Rhaenyra into direct action, so a posthumous "win". Now I think this is kinda horseshit because Rhaenys has been doing NOTHING but "this is not my war to start" and "all men want bloodshed, we women must say no" bullshit. She has no alternative plan, Rhaenyra has no (viable) alternative plan. Alicent had Aegon II crowned in front of all of King's Landing (minus the folks Rhaenys killed in her escape) so CLEARLY there is no real way for Rhaenyra to become Queen other than taking the crown by force. So we had 3.5 episodes of dithering on her part with Rhaenys' support that NEVER had a chance of success.
Anyway, the showrunner wants this to be a womans tale. So he can't write the women showing any real weakness. But he is bound to a sequence of events that they are not really deviating from, so this battle had a predetermined outcome. So he can't have Rhaenys seem weak for falling for a trap, or seem scared, or even lose without 'almost' winning (that in and of itself is ok, more dramatic tension) but she's gotta die so we end up having this kinda bizarre "hey, the KING just got smoked, why am I risking my life for this puny castle that's about to become completely irrelevant because with Aegon II and his only male heir dead the likelihood of another wave of support for Rhaenyra over Aemond is quite possible" moment when she heads back. It could have, SHOULD have, been handled better. This is the damage to art when outside bias creeps in and the story is sacrificed for an agenda. Same thing with Rhaenyra sneaking into the Sept to talk with Alicent. It's a ridiculous event but they A. wanted to have more scenes with Rhaenyra and Alicent together, B. it got Rhaenyra over any "daddy doesn't love me" issues since she didn't know why Viserys would have suddenly changed his mind about the succession, and C. it gives Alicent some doubts, not that she has any real choice but to plow full steam ahead at this point. I just wish they had found a way to them to exchange messages but represent it with them talking directly instead of having Rhaenyra depart Dragonstone unexpectedly AGAIN and then admonish her (male) advisors for DARING to plan in her absence upon her return. By the Seven, lady, give some orders and lay out a plan!
Gp1
Member
Imho the take were she straps in at Meleys gives away her intentions that she's ain't going to retreat and is going to fight till the end without any chance of accomplish anything else.
It would have been much better if they showed Rhaenys winning the first skirmish against the king and Aemond, then being caught off guard by Vhagar in the second moment while she retreats victorious or something like that. The way it was done it seems that Rhaenys' death was a sacrifice in vain that leads to nothing, even though she took a good portion of the kings army, the king and a dragon out of the war.
But it's more of a pete peeve of mine in great episode.
Ps. The series implies the Vhagar although being huge, is slow and could be outrun by smaller dragons. At least it was the impression when Aemond killed Rhaenyra's son in S01.
It would have been much better if they showed Rhaenys winning the first skirmish against the king and Aemond, then being caught off guard by Vhagar in the second moment while she retreats victorious or something like that. The way it was done it seems that Rhaenys' death was a sacrifice in vain that leads to nothing, even though she took a good portion of the kings army, the king and a dragon out of the war.
But it's more of a pete peeve of mine in great episode.
Ps. The series implies the Vhagar although being huge, is slow and could be outrun by smaller dragons. At least it was the impression when Aemond killed Rhaenyra's son in S01.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
its a pet peeve in a grand scheme of things but its weak writing when there is so many other ways it couldve been written. right now, it just doesnt make sense why she would go back a third time if the king has already fallen. if you want to go back, go and get some backup. its right across the bay anyway. she will be back in minutes.
i dont know. the grandma just felt suicidal. i know its hard to have dialogue written when these characters are flying on fucking dragons but this reminded me of Dany going mad and burning Kings Landing to the ground without ever seeing it from her perspective. its just poor storytelling. figure out a way to make it make sense. if she had to die to stay true to the books then fine, maybe george wanted it this way but tvs are a different medium and you can invent stuff to remain consistent with character motivations and plot developments. The first season was extremely good at this.
This is a good post. Well said.
cormack12
Gold Member
I think the problem is, if Rhaneys had turned tail, why would other banner men still rally to the Blacks. They are already in a precarious position with support. You can't abandon them.
As it is, I think Aegons outcome will more than likely turn the tables anyway.
I don't see dragons being pivotal really.
As it is, I think Aegons outcome will more than likely turn the tables anyway.
I don't see dragons being pivotal really.
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All the dragons will die.
Dragons are ABSOLUTELY the power play in Westeros. The original King Aegon, and his two sister/wives, basically used dragons to single handedly (well, three handedly) dominate the ENTIRE CONTINENT because they could travel fast, demolish any masses of troops on the field, and no castle was safe. This was all just 150 years or so before where we are now, so it's pretty fresh in the public mind.
Killing Aegon II, especially after his heir, Jaehaerys, is killed, would knock the Greens on their heels. They just have Aemond left at that point because if they pushed Helaena or her daughter Jaehaera as Queen that would invalidate their entire "Sons before daughters" argument and Rhaenyra is back in. Plus if the choice is between a teen girl and Rhaenyra (even with Daemon in tow), its a much harder call than with Aegon II.
Ugh, another placeholder "Character development" episode
But we get apparent confirmation that Sunfyre is dead, so the Greens are down a serious dragon. And Valyrian steel armor! Something never seen or mentioned before, other than Euron Greyjoys scale armor, not plate, in the books.
My issue though is the women continue to admonish their men, but, again, have ZERO plans, strategies, or ideas, AT ALL, other than to skulk around and slip into highly guarded places with ease At least Rhaenyra had the gumption to admit she is wrong and is kinda clueless about all of this and maybe she should listen more, bitch less. Jace in one trip does more than she has in her entire 'reign'.
Seems bizarre that the greens had ANY question about who to take over for Aegon besides Aemond. There is no "abundance of heirs", WTF was that guy smoking? Like him or not, in a war Aemond seems a pretty good choice to lead. I'm kinda surprised the "kneel to us or we burn your castle" tactic isn't the one and only trick they need to pull. Why the greens are neglecting the Eyrie and other sources of black power is beyond me. At the very least torch their fields so they have other problems and for gods sake, BREAK THE DAMNED BLOCKADE! With melyes gone and Caraxes off at Harrenhall, no Black has been providing overwatch of the ships in weeks!
But we get apparent confirmation that Sunfyre is dead, so the Greens are down a serious dragon. And Valyrian steel armor! Something never seen or mentioned before, other than Euron Greyjoys scale armor, not plate, in the books.
My issue though is the women continue to admonish their men, but, again, have ZERO plans, strategies, or ideas, AT ALL, other than to skulk around and slip into highly guarded places with ease
At least Rhaenyra had the gumption to admit she is wrong and is kinda clueless about all of this and maybe she should listen more, bitch less. Jace in one trip does more than she has in her entire 'reign'.Seems bizarre that the greens had ANY question about who to take over for Aegon besides Aemond. There is no "abundance of heirs", WTF was that guy smoking? Like him or not, in a war Aemond seems a pretty good choice to lead. I'm kinda surprised the "kneel to us or we burn your castle" tactic isn't the one and only trick they need to pull. Why the greens are neglecting the Eyrie and other sources of black power is beyond me. At the very least torch their fields so they have other problems and for gods sake, BREAK THE DAMNED BLOCKADE! With melyes gone and Caraxes off at Harrenhall, no Black has been providing overwatch of the ships in weeks!
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Boring as fuck episode. This season has been a huge disappointment.
BearNecessity
Banned
I wonder if that dude in the tavern is gonna try his hand at being a dragon rider. Then die by dragon fire when he tries.
NecrosaroIII
Ultimate DQ Fan
First season was incredible. Second season is what Id considered pretty good. But from synopsis ive read, it seems tough to get 2 more seasons out of this.
BadBurger
Banned
I feel that the dialog may have been the strongest of any episode this season. Which I was thankful for seeing as it was really just a long series of discussions.
I do not buy Alicent's indignity at her situation. She was raised a noblewoman and knows the workings of the crown intimately. She should not be surprised by any of this.
I suppose this is where Rhaenyra's flaws begin to emerge as major detractions for her house. She should be deferring to the men who are trained in war. She should be relying upon the assembled wisdom of the council. She instead retreats to fantasize about the warrior Targ women of old, as her son immediately points out the obvious: that was a long time ago. It's not the world of Aegon the Conqueror, and it hasn't been for a long time.
I also chuckled a bit when she said her father gave her his cup but not a sword. While she wasn't being entirely literal, she rides the fantasy world equivalent of a gun ship. Who cares about a sword.
I do not buy Alicent's indignity at her situation. She was raised a noblewoman and knows the workings of the crown intimately. She should not be surprised by any of this.
I suppose this is where Rhaenyra's flaws begin to emerge as major detractions for her house. She should be deferring to the men who are trained in war. She should be relying upon the assembled wisdom of the council. She instead retreats to fantasize about the warrior Targ women of old, as her son immediately points out the obvious: that was a long time ago. It's not the world of Aegon the Conqueror, and it hasn't been for a long time.
I also chuckled a bit when she said her father gave her his cup but not a sword. While she wasn't being entirely literal, she rides the fantasy world equivalent of a gun ship. Who cares about a sword.
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Oh, they do, but this is what you get when you try to adapt a war story but don't have any war.
Madflavor
Member
I suppose what I find frustrating is that this season is 8 episodes long, as opposed to the 10 from last season. There really shouldn't be an excuse for episodes that feel like dragged out filler. I think it also highlights one of the big problems with this show. It's characters are just okay. They're not bad, they're not great, they're just fine. The problem is if you're going to have slow pacing, you need to have excellent characters and dialogue to carry the episodes. Even in Game of Thrones where you had episodes where nothing happened, and you may not have even gotten a scene with your favorite character, the characters you did see were great enough to make the episode entertaining to watch. None of the characters in HotD are on GoT's level. They do have brief moments here and there where the actors are given good material to flex their acting chops, but it's too few and far between.
Otto Hightower was getting really interesting to watch this season, but then he disappeared. Aegon is actually kinda good, but now he's outta commission. Aemond is interesting, but he doesn't have nearly enough scenes as he should. Daemon had every reason to be the GOAT of the show, but his storyline and the way they've handled the character has been fucking boring. I do enjoy watching HotD a lot, but it's a clear downgrade from GoT. I would say it's better than GoT Seasons 7&8 but that's a really low bar.
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Yeah, I agree. I know where the story is going so I can appreciate the path they are trying to lay down, but unfortunately they don't have the lively and colorful characters or snappy dialogue (most lifted directly from GRRMs books) to fall back on. GRRM knows pacing, ASOIAF was written with constant cliffhangers. F&B isn't quite structured that way, but they COULD have ended every ep with a holy shit moment, I just don't think they have the budget to do so since all those moments involve dragons
Condal is far more interested in pushing his "you go girl!" narrative than he is in making an exciting show so he neglects the characters that ought to be out chewing scenery in favor of getting women to talk to each other as much as possible. It is what it is.
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Biggest Trails Stan
Even though I like this show a lot. There's a noticeable lack of female nudity in this show..