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[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Yes, there are some wider sociocultural things going on now that are undesirable, many of which you mention, OP, but the creative freedom of developers to express wild ideas in gameplay mechanics, narrative, or gameplay systems would still eventuate irrespective of the epoch the industry eventually found itself in.

The biggest restriction to creative freedom is money. Because despite having all this amazing rendering tech, the costs associated with building games of the scale we see in modern games, in terms of volume of high-quality art assets to fill sometimes 10 - 100 hr games are absurdly higher than any previous period in time in the gaming industry.

Those costs aren't borne out of some current sociocultural malaise, rather it's just the actual cost of bringing games to market at the fidelity that modern gamers demand, and modern gaming tech can justify.

When publishers are now routinely spending close to $100m to develop a title, you betcha ass they will want to aggressively minimize the financial risks. Which means restricting the creative freedom of the developer to some extent.

 

[delfrickintree]

so you want far right games that offend people?

Yes. I want a Wolfenstein game that takes the other side. I want to sic my panzerhunds on commie rat villages

 

[phil_t98]

Yes. I want a Wolfenstein game that takes the other side. I want to sic my panzerhunds on commie rat villages

was there ever that game in the 80's or 90's?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I don’t get this fascination with AAA gaming. It’s nothing but safe sequels, and remasters/remakes, yet people focus so hard on that while ignoring the superior indie games that almost always offer deeper gameplay and more originality.

AAA is also the smallest segment of the industry.

I’m not totally sure what you’re looking for OP? We have nudity and full blown sex in games. The gore factor has only gotten more detailed. Expletives are common.

If you’re looking for characters that talk like Archie Bunker, then that’s something you never had in the ‘90s either.

Even in the non-AAA gaming space there is significantly less variety in game genres and types than in the 90s.

In those non-AAA sectors, where devs are more commonly independently funded and therefore don't have the luxury of being able to amortize the successes of stupendously successful AAA tentpole releases to offset the costs of smaller game release failures, these smaller devs teams will also more aggressively chase trends.

As such, there is huge stagnancy in gameplay mechanics, genres, and especially diversity in artistic expression in the indie space. Games are all Minecraft clones, survival games, etc etc.

 

[custardbun01]

Would it be fair to say the two have gone hand in hand? Mature tech, sophisticated hardware, powerful detailed games and worlds, long and expensive creative process, high investment, less creative risk to favour more guaranteed ROI. Hollywood has gone down the same path. Every movie seems like a fucken schlock marvel or dc universe lame fest.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Even in the non-AAA gaming space there is significantly less variety in game genres and types than in the 90s.

This is simply not true.

 

[poppabk]

I just watched an Oscar nominated movie where a man gets beaten to death with some dildos - I think games still have some boundaries they can push.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

This is simply not true.

How many new game genres exist today that didn't back then?

Now compare that with how many genres that existed back then that are pretty much dead today.

I rest my case.

 

[Rykan]

There's no examples so there is nothing to discuss here. Thinking that some old Simpson episodes are edgiest of satire that couldn't possibly replicated today is laughable, especially when compared to something along the likes of SouthPark.

 

[SmokedMeat]

How many new game genres exist today that didn't back then?

Now compare that with how many genres that existed back then that are pretty much dead today.

I rest my case.

You haven’t rested any case, nor given a single example of a genre that existed then, that doesn’t now.

Your own previous post talks of the popularity of survival games and creation games the likes of which didn’t even exist back then.
Online gaming was barely a thing, and VR simply wasn’t. I’m just looking to avoid list wars type stuff but anyone can see Battle Royal games, destruction sandbox, card battlers, Minecraft style sandbox creation games, Survival games, and rhythm action games weren’t around back then. The genre fusions we have barely existed. Persistent online worlds didn’t exist the way they do now.
On top of that genres that barely saw new releases are plentiful now. The output that exists today completely dwarfs what existed then.

 

[K2D]

A crossroads we were destined to come apon sooner or later.

Individuals having access to an amplified voice and platforms they have no business having the privilege to. Building they're social safespaces where they can filter and fabricate their reality to their liking.

That and unchecked capitalism.

I don't think it's all gloom and doom, but it could go any which way I feel like.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

Gameplay is important.

 

[DemonGamerTTT]

What I really wish was that videogames where profitable in adult niches.

For example the RC car, plane, copter niche is relatively profitable and is a somewhat expensive hobby made for adults.

I'd love to pay a premium price for adult(theme, gore, body exposition, story, gameplay) games, we the second generation (each being 25 years I believe) of gamers so we are the "first" adult gamers, but unfortunately 98% of the games are made for children and have to be PG 13 or bellow, that why directors and developers have barely any freedom...

Most entertainment media has some good profitable adult products, comic books, movies, manga (seine) with dark, viceral and serious themes, videogame is the only media industry where 98% of the profit comes from children.

 

[darrylgorn]

There are only so many ideas the human mind can come up with.

We exhausted most of those ideas in music, movies and TV a long time ago and videogames aren't that far behind.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

You haven’t rested any case, nor given a single example of a genre that existed then, that doesn’t now.

Well if you really want me to:

New genres that didn't exist back then:

• Survival games
• Errr.... survival games

Old genres that are dead or borderline on life support:

• Non-Japanese fighting games
• Non-realistic, non-SIM racing games
• Traditional Point & Click adventures
• Quirky creative games like Ape Escape
• Arcadey Space games
• Space sims
• Rhythm games like Parappa the Rappa
• Non-Nintendo Platformers
• Non-Nintendo party games
• Skate board games
• Snowboard games
• Grid-based Japanese SRPGs
• etc etc

 

[SmokedMeat]

Well if you really want me to:

New genres that didn't exist back then:

• Survival games
• Errr.... survival games

Old genres that are dead or borderline on life support:

• Non-Japanese fighting games
• Non-realistic, non-SIM racing games
• Traditional Point & Click adventures
• Quirky creative games like Ape Escape
• Arcadey Space games
• Space sims
• Rhythm games like Parappa the Rappa
• Non-Nintendo Platformers
• Non-Nintendo party games
• Skate board games
• Snowboard games
• Grid-based Japanese SRPGs
• etc etc

All of this exists in the indie space. You must not be on PC.

 

[ACESHIGH]

was there ever that game in the 80's or 90's?

I remember reading in a PC gaming magazine in the late 90s that there was such a game where the Nazis won the war and you controlled them. Americans went thr extra mile to censor it.

 

[deeptech]

It's true but this topic is so stale, no one can change it, perhaps indies but even they struggle in my mind. Idk but i'd have a ps2 game made today with some refinements and enjoy it. It would be cheaper to make and they could have much more freedom creatively.

 

[Killer8]

Would it be fair to say the two have gone hand in hand? Mature tech, sophisticated hardware, powerful detailed games and worlds, long and expensive creative process, high investment, less creative risk to favour more guaranteed ROI. Hollywood has gone down the same path. Every movie seems like a fucken schlock marvel or dc universe lame fest.

This. It's all this.

 

[BbMajor7th]

It's less political pressure (although that has played a part) and more commodification of culture. It's happened across all mainstream entertainment mediums, because the idea now is to attract the widest possible audience and that means aiming towards the lowest common denominator. Add to this the rise of IP: companies have realised that it's much easier to sell a mediocre thing that people recognise than a fantastic thing they don't. New IP and bold ideas are getting harder to greenlight and cross-media adaptation is becoming the norm.

 

[ANDS]

Nah. Maybe to a culture warrior sweating that character diversity is coming to a medium that was lacking it, but there is an absolute glut of freedom for any game developer that wants it (but this does take playing games outside the sphere of the "mainstream").

. . .like, the idea that this "Leftist Boogermonster" is haunting creativity in video games is just absolute nonsense unless all you're actually after is corporate produced fare.

 

[Salmon]

Woke will go broke!

 

[AV]

What big games were people writing 20 years ago that simply couldn't be made today?

KOTOR? GTA? Splinter Cell? Call of Duty?

 

[Tomofdahook17]

I understand what you're saying and I agree. But we are in a low point right now. But with Unreal 5 becoming used more and more now the indie scene is going to explode and we may actually get great videogames again.

 

[phil_t98]

I remember reading in a PC gaming magazine in the late 90s that there was such a game where the Nazis won the war and you controlled them. Americans went thr extra mile to censor it.

so censorship was a thing then to. did the game come out?

 

[StueyDuck]

If you look at passive media (movies, sitcoms, TV etc), the level of freedom they had back in the early 2000's, 90's and earlier was amazing. The sharp satire of The Simpsons, for example. I've watched so many movies from that era and thought - holy crap, they simply couldn't do that now. The far left hadn't taken hold yet, and America hadn't passively but lovingly embraced Chinese censorship yet.

Now, we've reached a point where the level of video game tech is really compelling, there you can have games that come close to rivalling movies from a cinematic and story telling perspective. But it feels like it's just too late. Wouldn't it have been awesome to have this level of technical capability 20-30 years ago? As the title says, it feels like video game tech is maturing at a bad time.

I mean I think I'm understanding this thread and I'd say high on life exists

But the problem is the culture of developers and the gaming industry. And unfortunately we just have to wait till the losers are eventually considered losers again instead of agenda heroes . These people are losing jobs in droves already.

The pendulum will swing back. And by then tech will be even better

 

[SmokedMeat]

What big games were people writing 20 years ago that simply couldn't be made today?

KOTOR? GTA? Splinter Cell? Call of Duty?

There are no examples given, because it’s all an imaginary boogeyman.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

All of this exists in the indie space. You must not be on PC.

Name at least 3 games in each category I mentioned that have released in the past 3 yrs.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Name at least 3 games in each category I mentioned that have released in the past 3 yrs.

Yeah, I’m going to spend a hour linking fifty games for your categories. Three games each within the last three years lol
Sure, because if a game released four years ago it means they don’t make them anymore?

If you’re on console then you can’t be helped because your options are limited big time. If you’re on PC, then how the hell can you be so oblivious?

You can’t find rhythm games? Snowboarding games? Party games? Space sims? Arcade space shooters??

Are you even looking?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Yeah, I’m going to spend a hour linking fifty games for your categories. Three games each within the last three years lol
Sure, because if a game released four years ago it means they don’t make them anymore?

If you’re on console then you can’t be helped because your options are limited big time. If you’re on PC, then how the hell can you be so oblivious?

You can’t find rhythm games? Snowboarding games? Party games? Space sims? Arcade space shooters??

Are you even looking?

I could extend it to releases in the last 10 or even 15 years. Most games in that category released on consoles in the 90s and late 00's and so just because they're still playable on PC, doesn't take anything away from my point.

The number of new games released in each category (and more) over the past 10yrs can probably be counted on one hand.

So if I'm a fan of say Space sims, for example, outside of the X series and Elite Dangerous, both of which have been around for nearly a decade, there really is nothing.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I could extend it to releases in the last 10 or even 15 years. Most games in that category released on consoles in the 90s and late 00's and so just because they're still playable on PC, doesn't take anything away from my point.

The number of new games released in each category (and more) over the past 10yrs can probably be counted on one hand.

So if I'm a fan of say Space sims, for example, outside of the X series and Elite Dangerous, both of which have been around for nearly a decade, there really is nothing.

You said the genres didn’t exist any longer. Just because they’re not on console doesn’t mean they stopped existing, hence the reason I kept asking if you were on PC.

 

[fart town usa]

Yea, mainstream stuff is all cookie-cutter trash for the most part. That's why it's such a shock when something releases and really grabs everyone's attention.

Creative freedom in the late 80s & early 90s was awesome. Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, Sci-Fi, etc. I can remember when those channels rolled out on cable. It was such a mishmash of old properties and brand new things. Literally just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Gaming too, we endured lots of shit but holy smokes, the stuff that excelled is truly timeless entertainment. Nickelodeon in particular was just dumping money into brand new IPs and basically allowing small animators to do whatever the hell they wanted. But of course things work out and then it gets homogenized into something that appeals to everyone yet no one at all and loses all substance.

Those days are long gone but there really is merit when people says things were better back then. In a lot of ways they truly were. Like others have mentioned though, indies have gone above and beyond to create things that people want that big developers no longer create.

I just dont understand why major game/film studios treat everything as a tent pole production. Why is it so hard to release new IPs as small games and see what takes off? Or allow directors to make something relatively low budget? That's why Horror is so reliable, budget is generally small and gives so much room to be creative. For games, it gives much needed experience and creative freedom to junior and senior developers. That's what I love so much about Tango, everyone wants Shinji to keep making the same game and he isn't interested whatsoever. All he wants to do is allow junior staff to have a crack at directing and he has no issue with making smaller/unique games. I'm really glad HiFi Rush generated such great word of mouth.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

You said the genres didn’t exist any longer. Just because they’re not on console doesn’t mean they stopped existing, hence the reason I kept asking if you were on PC.

When something pathetic like 1 game every 25yrs is the rate at which games release in those genres, then yeah they effectively don't exist anymore. Even on PC

 

[AV]

When something pathetic like 1 game every 25yrs is the rate at which games release in those genres, then yeah they effectively don't exist anymore. Even on PC

Your standards are a bit ridiculous. Just because certain genres with limited potential die off either temporarily or for good doesn't mean the industry is creatively bankrupt. Like, as per your example how many "non Japanese fighting games" do we need every X years when the Japanese are making the best ones? Does it matter?

Let's play two games. In the first I'm going to describe the genres of the best games I played last year that weren't Elden Ring or God of War and you're going to tell me what they are.

1. 2D smash tv-like / base builder
2. 2D roguelite action platformer
3. isometric 3D action puzzle
4. point-and-click narrative
5. first person puzzle platformer shooter
6. isometric brawler
7. FMV... puzzle? game
8. top-down auto shooter (i think we all know this one)

Now, how many of those did you play?

Game two is simply to tell me what YOUR top games of last year were, because it was an incredible year for creative video games and I think you're just... not playing enough of them to realise they're all around you.

 

[Vick]

If you look at passive media (movies, sitcoms, TV etc), the level of freedom they had back in the early 2000's, 90's and earlier was amazing. The sharp satire of The Simpsons, for example. I've watched so many movies from that era and thought - holy crap, they simply couldn't do that now. The far left hadn't taken hold yet, and America hadn't passively but lovingly embraced Chinese censorship yet.

Now, we've reached a point where the level of video game tech is really compelling, there you can have games that come close to rivalling movies from a cinematic and story telling perspective. But it feels like it's just too late. Wouldn't it have been awesome to have this level of technical capability 20-30 years ago? As the title says, it feels like video game tech is maturing at a bad time.

You are 100% correct OP, I think about this all the time in fact.

Gaming, in that way, that particular one many users completely ignore/dismiss, is in the worst state it has ever been.
Feels criminal actually, because after waiting 20+ years to get to this point playing games should feel cathartic only for us old farts, instead of being most of the time insulting and miserable.

 

[SmokedMeat]

When something pathetic like 1 game every 25yrs is the rate at which games release in those genres, then yeah they effectively don't exist anymore. Even on PC

They don’t make arcade space shooters or space sims anymore…

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1161580/Hardspace_Shipbreaker/

 

[SmokedMeat]

Old genres that are dead or borderline on life support:

• Non-realistic, non-SIM racing games

 

[Shut0wen]

I think the problem is that theres a generation of absolute shit writers, simpson an example you used, early shows are actually "progressive" for its time while also incredibly smart and witty with the subject while new simpsons just doesnt want to be witty at all with whatever the subject is

 

[Kikorin]

Sure there are some games that couldn't live today like they did in the 90s, for example an AAA Duke Nukem wouldn't be feasible today without completely distorting the character and setting. But I think is not a question of politics and things like that, is more that a triple A game today is so expensive that companies have to try to appeal a widest audience possible. In the 90s videogaming was an hobby for nerds, today is an industry biggest than cinema and music, so is just obviously that games had to adapt for something more appealing for anyone.

Luckly indie games exists and have lot more variety in gameplay and settings than biggets budget games, also the AAA games of the 90s are basically the indie games of today.

 

[RoboFu]

I mean we just got GOTY 2023 Hi-Fi Rush.

 

[Fbh]

Nah gaming is OK now.
To get this level of tech you need the sales to afford the hundreds of employees and millions in R&D which will inevitably push most super high budget games into an overly safe direction. It's not about "woke" ideology, it's that it was always going to be hard to find someone to give you 200million to fund some weird niche AAA game. Movies are no different, look at the highest budget movies ever, even when adjusted for inflation most of them are safe projects designed to have a broad appeal.

BUT even if the driving force for these tech advancements is AAA production, a lot of it still ends up helping AA and indie devs. The same tech advancements that allow AAA studios to make increasingly better looking games can also help, for example, an team of under 20 people to make cool stuff like The Ascent:

 

[Punished Miku]

Buy Wanted: Dead. Buy Stella Blade.

Some smaller games are out there trying to put out stuff that goes against political correctness, but people have to actually buy it. Yoko Taro (creator of NieR) was a nobody until Automata sold 2 million copies, and now he's going to be on projects for years with funding. 2 million is a rounding error for big series like Spider Man, Call of Duty, God of War. You can buy those games, sure, but it doesn't make a giant difference.

If you buy a smaller game that is doing what you want to see, you can potentially make a large difference and see more of it made. Just have to look away from the mainstream releases.