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Kotaku: Epic say Unreal PS5 demo is also targeting Xbox Series X
- Thread starter onQ123
- Start date
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
Maybe. We don't know how much the ssd was taxed during the slower scenes.
Tim seemed to have implied this is impossible without sony's innovations. But they also said it can run in all the next gen hardware. And also on a 2070 with an nvme.
The 2070 only has 8GB of vram.
We don't know if this used 11-12 or even 13 or 14GB of vram at once. As I said we also don't know how much the ssd was taxed in the slow scenes, or if the ssd in that dev kit was as fast as final ssd.
It seemed nanite was mostly using compute, we also don't know if use of the primitive shading tech will accelerate it much.
What were the bottlenecks? Total vram? Compute? ssd bandwidth?
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Ok guys, help me learn. Didn't get much sleep so bear with me. This is how I understand system memory in consoles. This is obviously not my area of expertise...
So basically lets say the SSD is a reservoir with a faucet that stores data. The RAM is a cup that the SSD fills with data and the CPU/GPU is drinking the data from that cup so that it can process it and display it on screen.
IF I have that right, then my question is with the demo.
If we don't know how often the PS5's SSD is running at full speed, we don't know how fast it actually fills that cup. So we don't know how much the GPU needs to drink, so we don't know how full that cup even needs to stay...
But even if it can keep that cup all the way full... The GPU can only drink so much at once right?
I think what people are wondering is how full that cup needs to be at any point to achieve that level of detail...
And then there is resolved quality...
As far as I understand it, when it comes to textures... Resolved quality = resolution + LOD
You could have 100k textures but if you don't have the resolution to resolve that detail it's going to have vastly diminishing returns.
IMO @1440p you aren't going to perceive much of a difference between 4k textures and 8k textures. Even, or especially, when you upscale.
I think we need to wait and see before we can say which console is going to have better resolved quality... if we are even going to be able to easily tell. Both consoles may very well hit their GPU's bottlenecks at a resolution/resolved quality level that is relatively imperceptible when compared in most games and on most screens.
So basically lets say the SSD is a reservoir with a faucet that stores data. The RAM is a cup that the SSD fills with data and the CPU/GPU is drinking the data from that cup so that it can process it and display it on screen.
IF I have that right, then my question is with the demo.
If we don't know how often the PS5's SSD is running at full speed, we don't know how fast it actually fills that cup. So we don't know how much the GPU needs to drink, so we don't know how full that cup even needs to stay...
But even if it can keep that cup all the way full... The GPU can only drink so much at once right?
I think what people are wondering is how full that cup needs to be at any point to achieve that level of detail...
And then there is resolved quality...
As far as I understand it, when it comes to textures... Resolved quality = resolution + LOD
You could have 100k textures but if you don't have the resolution to resolve that detail it's going to have vastly diminishing returns.
IMO @1440p you aren't going to perceive much of a difference between 4k textures and 8k textures. Even, or especially, when you upscale.
I think we need to wait and see before we can say which console is going to have better resolved quality... if we are even going to be able to easily tell. Both consoles may very well hit their GPU's bottlenecks at a resolution/resolved quality level that is relatively imperceptible when compared in most games and on most screens.
Gavon West
Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
I cant believe some are pushing this thing as if The Series X won't be as detailed or lack in other areas of this same demo. It's just a more beefier system all around, Of course it can run this demo - moreso even.
geordiemp
Member
First you establish what the capability is without marketing buzzwords and PR speak. This gen games are 5 gb RAM avauilable, ps4 and Xb1.
Then show next gen consoles can load in under a second should be a breeze if the SSD performance has no bottlenecks. 5 GBs uninterupted and your RAM is full in under a second....simple.... if nothing is slowing down the transfer..
Second step is to show large assests culled and streamed in nanoseconds within a frame blindingly fast.
Make your own mind up.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
This tech demo couldn't run at 4k 30fps even on a 2080ti. The pixel difference would be 2.25x, requiring 125% higher performance, but the 2080ti only has 40% higher performance than ps5.
Again assuming ssd wasn't an issue.
Pixel counting has trouble with the demo the image quality is beyond traditional 1440p. The assets are hollywood cg quality.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
You seriously think third party games would look and perform better on PS5 because of that SSD ? Take that shit to your SSD thread.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
The question nobody is asking is how much bandwidth this was using on the SSD on PS5 if that was maxing it out it’s pretty worrying for next gen. don’t forget it was running at 1440p most of the time as well. While I think it looks amazing the resoloution and FPS were not great.
also no ray tracking which is also a next gen feature.
I get that this is an early demo of unreal 5 to but the question of how much of the SSDwas being utilised befor anybody starts saying it can’t be done on this or that
also no ray tracking which is also a next gen feature.
I get that this is an early demo of unreal 5 to but the question of how much of the SSDwas being utilised befor anybody starts saying it can’t be done on this or that
Makoto-Yuki
Gold Member
Yeah anyone thinking they are getting these kind of graphics at 4k 60-120hz....gonna be really disappointed.
As for lack of raytracing, the lighting was really impressive. If that's what can be done without raytracing then honestly I don't see why we should waste processing power on it.
itsjustJEFF
Member
Dee Dah Dave
Member
No more need for RAM, we can now just use 100x slower SSD storage. It defies science but forget about that, it works!
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hyperbertha
Member
Um, in some respects, yeah? No need to be rude. In terms resolution Xbox will look better. In terms of what the SSD contributes in terms of visuals, Ps5. I don't see how that's up for debate.
oldergamer
Member
hmm i guess if PS5 is the target, that it is considered the lower end console between the two? They wouldn't target features that they know would not run on both consoles.
bumleforce
Member
I don’t get why this is a big deal. Looks like trolling
7DeadleeScenes
Neo Member
Sound like a marketing deal is in place here. Just an opinion.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You got it!
Snake29
Banned
1440p doesn't have to be the final res for this tech/game or whatever. It was running on early PS5 devkit and not final devkit or even final PS5 tools.
It almost feels like xfans are feeling left behind after the first Inside Xbox shitshow, and now trying to feel better to shit on the "1440p" res in this demo. Well for your information, this demo wouldn't run better on XSX hardware in the current state.
It almost feels like xfans are feeling left behind after the first Inside Xbox shitshow, and now trying to feel better to shit on the "1440p" res in this demo. Well for your information, this demo wouldn't run better on XSX hardware in the current state.
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itsjustJEFF
Member
If that was the MAX it could push because of the SSD, then we're in trouble. Because the PS5 has the fastest pipes of either the PS5/SeriesX. Can the extra TF push the rest through that smaller hole?
apologies for the wording.If we REALLY THINK about this demo, like we REALLY think about it. It was to show us how many pixels/triangles they could push. Now, they were pushing hundreds of BILLIONS of pixels/triangles and it ran at 1440/30. Theoretically, what if a Dev chose instead to only push hundreds of Millions? Or maybe only 10's of Millions? How much room would that free up for resolution, as that seems to be the most important thing right now. Would we notice the difference from 100's of billions vs 10's of millions? How much room would that leave for some ray tracing, cause neither of these consoles are powerful enough to implement FULL and utterly COMPLETE ray tracing, as in everything is ray traced. I believe most ray tracing will be a comb of dynamic GI/lighting and some ray tracing here and there.
People are jumping to conclusions. Just taking the numbers from this demo and running with it. What some of you actually want to know is, Will the SeriesX slower SSD but extra 2 TF be able to run this demo @ 4k/30 or 4k/60. As it stands exactly the way the demo is right now? Hell No. With "optimization" and more realistic numbers, i think both of these consoles will get great results from this engine, will it be 4k/60? Who the hell knows, I'm not a developer.
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phil_t98
#SonyToo
The lighting was impressive I agree but these next gen consoles have ray tracing naked into the hardware that make it super efficient to do it. It will still cost cpu/gpu poser but it’s lest costly than it was befor.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Is this the result of repeatedly validating your points with each other in over a dozen SSD threads?
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I don't think that's the issue. The problem comes from people then assuming that only the PS5 is capable of doing this with it's SSD I/O, and not XSX with it's SSD I/O. People are drawing that correlation because this demo was shown on PS5 and not XSX, and some are compounding this with what they feel was a weak Inside Xbox presentation the week before (which, granted, had very little gameplay in there despite the word being thrown multiple times).
And the thing is, people making those conclusions have literally no ground or basis to do so. Their main reasons range from a mix of either being uninformed on SSD tech in general, uninformed on various aspects of PS5 and XSX, uninformed on various features of XSX due to tunnel vision in focusing on PS5 features, or some console warrior motivation to trash a competitor platform any chance they can get even if such literally defies reality or sensibility.
Some of them bring up the same bullet points over and over, such as Cerny's words of eliminating bottlenecks, or taking Tim Sweeny's praise for PS5's SSD as a means of substantiating those claims. While the SSD is impressive and deserves praise, it's not the only one that's impressive nor the only one that deserves praise, and some people are trying their hardest to deny that there is no marketing or PR incentive in the way Epic has made mentions to PS5 in relation to the demo. They try denying that because to them the very idea is perceived as a negative connotation, an insult. But in reality just bringing that (very probable) reality up is simply stating what it likely is, nothing more than that.
But some people are too emotionally involved in this to think rationally, hence they perceive it as an attack on Sony and/or PS5 to suggest that maybe, just maybe, some of the talk Epic has mentioned in regards the demo is not only genuine, but somewhat peppered as positive PR for PS5 since, by association, if they are presenting their own engine in the best light they would obviously want to present the hardware that engine demo runs on, in the best light possible as well.
So I think that's where the contention comes from, in all honesty. People extrapolating way too much from the reality of things, some doing so out of disingenuous reasons.
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TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
And if they do are you gonna catalog multiple quotes from dev’s saying flops matter more?
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
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hyperbertha
Member
No the result of having a brain in my head and using it. I get it. Xfans are in denial of SSDs improving graphics, despite visual proof and pretty much every developer ever, corroborating otherwise. Get rekt. See I can be rude too.
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
lol at the tweet chain after that. NO COMMODORE 64 SUPPORT??? WTF
Awesome on both consoles, and on PC.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
I'm really interested to see how the SSD can truly improve visuals. Have the Sony fans concluded that the SSD is what makes games look good now? How do we explain visual differences between Xbox One X and PS4 Pro? If you install an SSD in a PS4 Pro will it beat out the Xbox One X graphics?
Gavon West
Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
You high AF.
FranXico
Member
A very odd thing to point at. Just look up the resolution and framerate of the Minecraft XsX Ray-Tracing demo.
Die Namek Ability
Member
To be fair MS did that to themselves, they could have postured better if they were concerned that people would flock to Sonys system because of this demo. Its no different then when Sony fumbled out of the gate talking about an SSD when MS was hammering home the idea of 13TFs. I agree that people try to read between the lines and connect dots when there are no dots to connect however it happens in both camps and you nor i can do anything to change that. What we do know is Epic decided to showcase thier new engine running on the PS5 and not thier previous partners MS. IMO there are only two logical reasons this could be one Sony made a deal with them or the PS5 is more capable of showing of thier new engine. Microsoft fans will support conclusion one and Playstation fans will support conclusion two.
Die Namek Ability
Member
Its not a magical SSD for fucks sake, im so tired of explaining this. Its the combination of the SSD with the custom i/o to allow data to be feed throughout the system really fast. Oh and by the way the XsX can do it too. Or do you think they just said fuck lets throw an SSD in thier cus reasons?
alabtrosMyster
Member
It's just because they have not ported it, there must be some version of this demo that can scale up or down to the necessary level for it to work on the sxs.
While I think this is true for the SSD, I would not make any assumptions as to what the motives are.
itsjustJEFF
Member
Honestly, i think the real issue is people thinking they know anything about hardware. "Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong" Neil deGrasse Tyson, Mike Tyson's older and much less famous brother.
It's their insecurities feeding into it. Let's not forget that the FOCUS on Teraflops and the importance that word has played in the last 10 years. People see that Demo, see that it's on PS5, hear what Tim is saying and immediately their thought is "Wait WTF, 12 is bigger than 10! Why isn't this an Xbox Demo? Why aren't they saying this can also run on Xbox and run better, cause it's 12 TF! WTF!!! WTF!!!" So much of peoples EGO's, hopes, and dreams are now tied to that 12 TF number. And honestly the same goes for the SSD crowd. You're never gonna get away from it.
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93xfan
Banned
they could’ve waited for the 7GBs SSDs coming this year that Cerny believes will be good enough to run PS5 games.
The engine doesn’t come out until next year, so why rush the reveal on console hardware? Some marketing deal was almost certainly struck.
That’s not to say that Sony may not have the advantage over Xbox on areas like the flying part. It’s too early to say at this point. Other loading points could mean a slightly slow sliding between a crevice.
The Xbox in that case would maybe have to have a little less variety or something scaled back. But who knows. But it’s all speculation at this point. There may be trade offs.
I’m sure PS5 can do some nice stuff for exclusives, but most multi platform games I expect will target both.
At this point MS has some good and advantages and Sony does too. We’ll have to see how it plays out. At the end of the day though, nothing shown so far will not be possible in some way on the other console.
majestix1988
Member
if we go main platform development for these games using unreal engine 5 on next gen
if XSX as Main Platform for Multiplatform game
on XSX:
*the game is normal no issues and other things( all textures and graphics are pretty normal on these area) with some no minimal issue like texture pop in or not
* loading speed is fast due its ssd usage
* resolution is variable can be any usage if developer want it to use
*mostly targeted fps will be targeted well
on PS5
*the game is normal but all textures are faster to load(no texture popins will appear + its pretty same as xsx)
*loading speed is faster than xsx due unique ssd
*resolution can be variable but limited due its teraflops but this unique console design due frequency can be edited or altered but still limited on 10teraflops
*same on fps as XSX but mostly on time unlike xsx version(same issue as resolution can be edited via same resolution fix like on top)
if PS5 as Main Platform for Multiplatform Game
on XSX
*the game can be normal but some will have texture pop in issue this can be fixed via more usage of teraflops
to increase its speed loading for textures to be used
*loading speed is fast
*resolution can be variable but if teraflops usage is being used on textures if used....this would lead problem for it if want some parity on same resolution on ps5
*same as resolution issue on fps
on PS5
*the game truly normal unlike its xsx version
*loading speed is mostly variable on this one(it can be more faster on ps5 or just twice faster)
*resolution/fps is variable no issue will be seen
about PC forget it its truly variable(many builds can be build) i dont like to add it but mostly it will same as xsx but better meanwhile its speed well the ps5 can have edge on two years
if XSX as Main Platform for Multiplatform game
on XSX:
*the game is normal no issues and other things( all textures and graphics are pretty normal on these area) with some no minimal issue like texture pop in or not
* loading speed is fast due its ssd usage
* resolution is variable can be any usage if developer want it to use
*mostly targeted fps will be targeted well
on PS5
*the game is normal but all textures are faster to load(no texture popins will appear + its pretty same as xsx)
*loading speed is faster than xsx due unique ssd
*resolution can be variable but limited due its teraflops but this unique console design due frequency can be edited or altered but still limited on 10teraflops
*same on fps as XSX but mostly on time unlike xsx version(same issue as resolution can be edited via same resolution fix like on top)
if PS5 as Main Platform for Multiplatform Game
on XSX
*the game can be normal but some will have texture pop in issue this can be fixed via more usage of teraflops
to increase its speed loading for textures to be used
*loading speed is fast
*resolution can be variable but if teraflops usage is being used on textures if used....this would lead problem for it if want some parity on same resolution on ps5
*same as resolution issue on fps
on PS5
*the game truly normal unlike its xsx version
*loading speed is mostly variable on this one(it can be more faster on ps5 or just twice faster)
*resolution/fps is variable no issue will be seen
about PC forget it its truly variable(many builds can be build) i dont like to add it but mostly it will same as xsx but better meanwhile its speed well the ps5 can have edge on two years
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Darlingcognito
Member
Hmm im not too sure, 1440p at 30fps with no RT is a pretty high water mark to get close to. Maybe the mid gen series x could gey closer?
Die Namek Ability
Member
Hmm thats a really good point. On the crevice "loading" thing, im pretty sure Epic already addressed that and it wasn't for loading reasons. https://kotaku.com/epic-says-that-one-moment-in-its-ps5-tech-demo-wasn-t-t-1843465165 One thing to note however is Cerny stated the 7GBs SSDs coming later would be good enough for use in the PS5 because it has the built-in custom I/O. Im not sure if 7GBs SSD with out that is the same.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Yep. And to throw in a bit more; it's funny how some of the people who worship everything SSD (particularly PS5's SSD) are the same ones who were almost always worshiping TFs up until Road to PS5. Always going with TF numbers higher than 12, even into 13/14/15 TF territory.
And even back then, at least some people were trying to tell them that TFs aren't everything. Now they think SSDs are everything and the only thing that really truly matters, because they perceive the "loss" of their preferred platform in the "TF battle" can be translated to a "win" in the "SSD battle" but, once again, they don't really understand the weight of these different technologies into the overall system design, or that there is more than one singular approach to resolve design challenges, even the ones Cerny focused on in his presentation.
This is true. There's something I want to touch on though real quick. To an extent the perception is MS's fault because they definitely played into the TF angle with their messaging. However, I would not say they only focused on TFs. When they did that blog/Twitter info drop they still led with TFs, but they did touch on a lot of stuff aside from the TFs. They talked about Velocity Architecture, Sampler Feedback, Direct ML etc. Lots of things outside of the "brute force" of pure TFs in fact.
However, I think the issue is that MS did not spotlight that stuff the way Sony did with the SSD and audio at Road to PS5. So that's kind of painted the impression with some people that XSX is anemic in those departments because of lack of in-depth focus on those things in a way that shows the paper specs don't mean everything. If you know where to look around there's some Xbox engineer people who have provided some really interesting notes on aspects of Velocity Architecture like the Sampler Feedback, BCPack, even other things like mesh shader level support (which is double the maximum size of Nvidia's GPUs), and specific aspects of DirectStorage only for XSX.
But that's kind of the problem: you have to go hunt for those nuggets of info. It's a bit surprising that, them being known primarily as a software company, MS's Xbox division haven't put the software stack optimizations regarding XSX at the forefront of their messaging. However, this is where I think WE are kind of to blame here. They kind of knew that the power narrative was something that devastated them with XBO, and a lot of people probably would not have bothered paying attention to them seriously if they lost the power narrative again. Which is why they aimed for a system with a higher TF performance (and higher CPU performance as well).
If they led off with their software-orientated optimizations people at the time probably wouldn't have paid attention because let's face it, A LOT of people were still caught up only focusing on TFs, right up to Road to PS5, where a lot of them were virtually forced to focus on a different metric hence the SSD obsessions that've gained traction. It's the same obsessive, narrow-vision energy they had with TFs in earlier speculation, simply shifted to SSD I/O instead. For all intents and purposes their motivations are exactly the same, the clothing's just been changed.
What I'm thinking is that the hardware event in June will involve a focus on a lot of XSX features outside of GPU TFs, including a front-and-center focus on things they mentioned early on but got buried by both them and a lot of people who could only see TFs at the time. If they can show how their approach to resolving SSD I/O bottleneck issues is competitive with Sony's, while being more mass-market friendly (since a lot of it is software-based it should have scalable performance on a range of devices which benefits 3rd-parties immensely), then they can effectively put a lot of the speculation on their SSD I/O approach being fielded by some as a "bottleneck" to rest. If they can show how their approach is superior to Sony's in some areas, then that would be even better for them.
Whatever they do decide to focus on going forward with hardware talk, though, will be paid more attention to since a lot of people now have SSD tunnel vision syndrome. Anything even partly related to SSD I/O, they will latch onto with a laser focus.
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svbarnard
Banned
Yeah and then imagine having to gimp it down even further in case there happens to be an Xbox series s!!!! Which I fucking hope to God Microsoft doesn't do!
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Just wait until a real game with AI, gameplay, and lots of NPCs/enemies running around. That demo was canned with one character running and jumping on rocks.
We'll have to see how good UE5 runs on next gen consoles with all the fixings activated and at what res and frames and how much RT.
So far that PS5 demo wasn't anything special. Even the character model wasn't even detailed. The best part of the demo is the detailed rocks and lights/shadows.
Stuart360
Member
fallingdove
Member
All due respect — just because you are an expert on thick women, doesn’t mean you understand the weight of these different technologies either.
Is it a stretch to think that PS5 could have better textures, fewer LOD requirements, but lower overall resolution; where XSX has higher overall resolution and less impressive textures/LOD? These consoles have different strengths and weaknesses, surely these differences will manifest themselves in one way or another.
This week’s frenzy has more to do with the poor XSX showing and the impressive PS5 showing, and not the actual capability of these machines. Nobody is arguing that XSX won’t be able to run Unreal 5 or have awesome graphics. The engine will undoubtedly be ported to a grapefruit at some point.
itsjustJEFF
Member
Yo you just contradicted yourself so hard
That demo was created to show off what you just pointed out Man you guys crack me up. They made that demo to detail, LOL, the detailed textures, and triangles being streamed in, and lights/shadows. They NEVER once even mentioned the character. Thats like someone saying "Yea, Forza isn't look that great. The crowds aren't very detailed. The best part of that game is the Cars, Weather, and the tracks"
Gavon West
Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
Off topic: how to get in contact with a mod on this site? Genuine question.
Vawn
Banned
It is in some ways and it is weaker in some ways. There will be things PS5 will do better than XSeX and vice-versa.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
The 9 TF rdna1 cards are said to be comparable to 12TF vega gcn. Ps5 is 10 TF which means it likely compares with 13+TF gcn, if it were rdna1, but since it is rdna2 it likely is equivalent to 15-16TF gcn in performance. That is without counting that like series x it likely has over 10+TF equivalent of additional performance for ray tracing. That makes it over 25+TF(10+TF rdna2 + 10+TF ray tracing perf) equivalent gcn.
But it is true some were expecting 13TF of rdna1, 10+TF rdna2 might be equivalent if the 50% efficiency improvement is true.