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[tkscz]

Is this a vs SNES thread yet? I want to talk about how awesome both were

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Is this a vs SNES thread yet? I want to talk about how awesome both were

Heh heh go back a few pages and see.

 

[Insane Metal]

The snes has a bigger palette so it's natural that the best of the best took advantage. In terms of technical trickery games like sonic 3/k, contra hard corps, batman, panorama cotton and especially red zone really take the cake though. And I think that was the main point of the thread. What games did anything especially interesting on snes? I can't really think of any, but I'm not the expert there.



well, that depends on the game doesn't it?

Those do sound better, but still much worse than great snes games.

As to games, Castlevania Dracula X, Donkey Kong has amazing animations and graphics and sound, Uniracers, Star Fox, MK3, Doom, Street Fighter Alpha 2.

 

[RScrewed]

As a musician myself (even though I don't work with it professionaly, I've been playing guitar since 1991) I agree wholeheartedly. Both platforms have a wide array of sounds and cool soundtracks and they have influenced me a lot. I really love how the sounds on the Genesis sound punchier and the bass is more visceral, I also think that MK games sound a tad darker than their SNES counterparts. While the tropical sounding stuff on Donkey Kong can only be found on SNES and there's no equivalent on Genesis. That generation was really something special when it comes to music.

Genesis FTW with the Yamaha synthesis...but it's worth noting you could sample the synth.



...for an inferior version of the tracks!

 

[Xenon]

Since someone brought it up, here is the definitive Eternal Champions video.



I am sad to say I learned that there was an actual equal to Eternal Champion's on the Sega CD from this video. which I never played. I always thought it was just an enhanced version of the original like other Sega CD games.

 

[DeepEnigma]

What happens when you don't have Blast Processing?

So much smoother, especially the bottom one. That would have been something back in the day!

 

[dogen]

Those do sound better, but still much worse than great snes games.

As to games, Castlevania Dracula X, Donkey Kong has amazing animations and graphics and sound, Uniracers, Star Fox, MK3, Doom, Street Fighter Alpha 2.

Well, the best FM game music wasn't really on the genesis in the first place. You'd have to look at the x68000 and pc-98 libraries.

These chips are almost the same capabilities (slightly higher quality samples on pc98 and a couple extra fm channels on x68000). You could make the same music on the genesis without any real quality differences other than pcm and maybe a couple fewer channels.









yep the slap bass, choirs, flutes and whistles are all FM.

for example. here's a genesis track with a modified version of the slap bass from those pc-98 games

 

[Shifty]

So much smoother, especially the bottom one. That would have been something back in the day!

I think the PCE version is so smooth because it's using a different flavour of fakery for its mode 7 equivalent- that a variant on good old fashioned OutRun-style linescrolling, which is a fair bit less expensive (and more limited, no rotation!) than the texture mapped effect on show in the Mega Drive / Genesis version.

I do wonder how the zoom down + pan up effect is done though since there's obviously some form of scaling going on. Most of the time linescrolled roads are pre-rendered with correct perspective and then distorted after the fact to make it look like turns are happening.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Well, the best FM game music wasn't really on the genesis in the first place. You'd have to look at the x68000 and pc-98 libraries.

These chips are almost the same capabilities (slightly higher quality samples on pc98 and a couple extra fm channels on x68000). You could make the same music on the genesis without any real quality differences other than pcm and maybe a couple fewer channels.









yep the slap bass, choirs, flutes and whistles are all FM.

Don't forget that you could pipe the x68000 through an SC-55 or MT-32 to make that music sound even better.

 

[dogen]

Don't forget that you could pipe the x68000 through an SC-55 or MT-32 to make that music sound even better.

Sure, but not for every game and, it's not always better than the original opm music. I don't know if dragon knight had midi support but I seriously doubt it would be a real improvement.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Sure, but not for every game and, it's not always better than the original opm music. I don't know if dragon knight had midi support but I seriously doubt it would be a real improvement.

True. Dragon Knight didn't have an MT-32 soundtrack but Sol-Feace does, which I think is a good example of the MT-32's expanded sound:

Standard:


MT-32:


Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent.

 

[phil_t98]

Exactly. The only thing I was saying in this thread, and quite reasonably (IMO), is that the:

• SNES is a cheater.
• Fans of the SNES are cheaters, and have:
  • Cheated on homework, cheated on loved ones, and ultimately cheated themselves out of playing incredible games on the stunning 16-bit powerhouse known as the Sega Genesis or Mega Drive.
  • Relied on others to do all the heavily lifting in life, much like how the SNES relied on the Super FX and other gimmick chips to produce its vaunted visuals.
  • Become overly reliant on insincerity and bargain bin guile when presenting themselves to others, similar to how the SNES kept relying on cheap parlor tricks, like Mode 7, to convince others of its qualities.
  • Lied to the IRS, just like how Nintendo Power lied to all of its subscribers for years and years before being shut down for good.
  • Dumped their pets in the woods, largely because they could not handle the responsibility of caring for them, much like how the SNES couldn't handle the responsibility of caring for tons of sprites moving across the screen without the frame rate taking a dive.
  • Cried at Chrono Trigger and then journaled about it, in a feeble attempt at self-discovery and understanding.
  • Created layer upon layer of self-serving, self-deluding lies, all part of a ridiculous "personal reality construct," designed to convince them that the SNES was superior to the Genesis, despite overwhelming evidence it was not.

and all this cost nothing to the consumer, Sega did it with Virtua Racing to.

 

[dogen]

and all this cost nothing to the consumer, Sega did it with Virtua Racing to.

lol what? Those games were hella expensive.

 

[Chiggs]

lol what? Those games were hella expensive.

I feel like people forget how expensive games were back then...and it's not like they were ultimate editions or anything.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I feel like people forget how expensive games were back then...and it's not like they were ultimate editions or anything.

Yep. Fantasy Star IV was $100 new for the 24Mb beast.

 

[GermanZepp]

OP have you played Zero Tolerance?

I´ve played and finished, amazing game, scared the sh*t out of me when i was a kid. I got to this day a paper full of passwords

 

[phil_t98]

I feel like people forget how expensive games were back then...and it's not like they were ultimate editions or anything.

I bought stunt race FX and Yoshi's island on release day and they cost no more than any other Super Nintendo game at the time

 

[tkscz]

Heh heh go back a few pages and see.

In that case, the Genesis had wider bandwidth and a faster CPU, allowing it to run games at constantly higher frame rates and making animations far more smoother as a result. However, it's graphics chip did lack on screen colors (Had a 512 pallet, but could only show 64 at a time). With 64 colors on screen at one time, devs got creative. The Genesis could pull off effects like transparency, but it took some trickery from devs to do it, as shown before, Ranger X (a game I personally could not get into) did it, so did Vectorman and I believe the third Shinobe game also had some transparency. The Genesis also had a smaller resolution compared to the SNES, which is why the sprites look so damn big and blurry when compared to SNES games. However, because of CPU speed and bandwidth, games with lots of sprites on screen would run better, regardless of the Genesis not being able to have as many on screen as the SNES.

The SNES had more RAM available for the CPU (128KBs vs 76KBs) allowing for higher resolutions, however, most SNES games kept closer to the Genesis resolution due to the BUS speeds being too slow and the higher res would cause slow downs and flickers. It also allowed for more sprites on screen at once (but like I said before, the slower BUS made it so that it wouldn't run as well, so you rarely saw it happen). The SNES had a much MUCH larger color pallet as well, sporting over 32,000+ colors, however only 256 colors per scanline (4x as many colors as the Genesis). The SNES also had it's 8 modes that added more layering than the Genesis had, and developers really took advantage of those modes, with the most known mode being mode 7, which allowed for scaling and rotating (something neither the Genesis or SNES could pull off well on their own), but only on that layer. The SNES also did effects like transparency more naturally, and it tends to be seen more in SNES games than Genesis games because of it.

Each console had an advantage over the other. The Genesis had the better CPU in and better BUS speeds, allowing it to have more on screen while keeping better performance, even though it couldn't show as many colors or had as many special effects. The SNES had more effects it could pull, more colors and sharper images, but because of the lack of BUS and CPU speeds, it would require the removal of things like more sprites, animated backgrounds and anything that could slow the game down or cause flickering.

The best examples of showing both strengths and weaknesses shown in game form are Vectorman for the Genesis and Street Fighter Alpha 2 on the SNES. Vectorman is doing SO much all at once with the shear number of sprites on screen and keeping such smooth animations and steady frames, all while having a beautiful moving background. However, the sprites are big and blurry, and feel like they take up most the screen. And while the game is colorful, there is still a lack of color compared to SNES games. Street Fighter Alpha 2 has higher resolution sprites and a lot of gorgeous colors on screen at once. Backgrounds are sharp (for the time) and even animated. However, there are load times in the game. Not just before a fighters are on screen, but right after the announcer says fight, there is a load time and it can last about 10 seconds. The game also feels sluggish, which is not good for a fighting game.

 

[pramod]

While the later Genesis games were the most technically amazing, I feel like not enough credit has gone to some of the earliest Genesis launch games, like Revenge of Shinobi which is a masterpiece in game design.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

While the later Genesis games were the most technically amazing, I feel like not enough credit has gone to some of the earliest Genesis launch games, like Revenge of Shinobi which is a masterpiece in game design.

Heck, I'm even down for some Flicky (timeless arcade game). Genesis sort of came out at the perfect time: it caught a ton of 80s ports of great arcade games but also carried itself through the early 90s as console gaming found its footing with exclusive titles. SNES didn't really get a lot of those older, simpler ports because of when it launched.

 

[dogen]

The Genesis also had a smaller resolution compared to the SNES, which is why the sprites look so damn big and blurry when compared to SNES games.

Actually, that's the other way around. Most genesis games run at ~320x224, which is 25% higher than the 256x224 that virtually all SNES games run at.

The SNES had a much MUCH larger color pallet as well, sporting over 32,000+ colors, however only 256 colors per scanline (4x as many colors as the Genesis). The SNES also had it's 8 modes that added more layering than the Genesis had, and developers really took advantage of those modes

Though, the mode used determines the number of available colors on screen. For example, 4 BG layers and 256 colors per layer isn't possible.

 

[cartman414]

The unfortunate lack of scaling (at the time) cost the Genesis a decent home conversion of Space Harrier.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

I bought stunt race FX and Yoshi's island on release day and they cost no more than any other Super Nintendo game at the time

Yeah I used to buy new games at Toys R Us for $60. With inflation that is worth ~$100 in 2018 money

 

[Stuart360]

Owned and loved both the Genesis and Snes. The Genesis did get 2-3 times more playtime over the generation though.
One thing that always puzzled me with the Snes was the image quality on some games, it seemed blurry, almost like the Snes ran at a lower resoltuion than the Genesis.
The Snes did have my top 2 games of that generation though, Super Mario World and Super Mario Kart.

 

[phil_t98]

Yeah I used to buy new games at Toys R Us for $60. With inflation that is worth ~$100 in 2018 money

I used to pick new games up between £40-50 which games similar price now. yeah inflation and stuff but that was the price,

 

[Stuart360]

Yeah its weird how games today cost the same as they did 25 years ago. It kind of shows how us gamers got ripped off really as game budgets and dev teams were tiny back then compared to today.

 

[phil_t98]

Yeah its weird how games today cost the same as they did 25 years ago. It kind of shows how us gamers got ripped off really as game budgets and dev teams were tiny back then compared to today.

I remember buying games for the Amstrad cps 464 and Commodore 64 for £9.99 on cassette

 

[Stuart360]

I remember buying games for the Amstrad cps 464 and Commodore 64 for £9.99 on cassette

Oh man, we had a Amstrad CPC464 as well, loved that thing, ELITE for the win!.
I kind of think its a bit of karma now for devs and studios after charging us so much money for console games back then, and now they struggle a bit because of huge budgets and dev teams. Although microtransactions are their 'solution' for that.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yeah its weird how games today cost the same as they did 25 years ago. It kind of shows how us gamers got ripped off really as game budgets and dev teams were tiny back then compared to today.

There were also far less gamers and far less consoles/software being sold as well to take into account.

Not to mention stamping discs is far cheaper than producing carts, and now they have alternative revenue sources as well with online networks, GaaS, DLC, subscriptions, etc., to keep the buy in at a steady price.

 

[phil_t98]

Oh man, we had a Amstrad CPC464 as well, loved that thing, ELITE for the win!.
I kind of think its a bit of karma now for devs and studios after charging us so much money for console games back then, and now they struggle a bit because of huge budgets and dev teams. Although microtransactions are their 'solution' for that.

yeah they charge a decent amount for games and budgets are higher now but look at movies budgets and they charge less for tickets and get their money back. games can sell 10 million plus depending on the game so they make a lot back plus marketing deals with Sony and Microsoft help

 

[Stuart360]

There were also far less gamers and far less consoles/software being sold as well to take into account.

Not to mention stamping discs is far cheaper than producing carts, and now they have alternative revenue sources as well with online networks, GaaS, DLC, subscriptions, etc., to keep the buy in at a steady price.

Well whatever variables there were back then, most 16bit games probably cost 1% of what it costs to make games today, which FAR outstrips the stuff you have mentioned there.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

This is a fantastic controller. There are many days when I prefer it to the Saturn controller, thanks to its comfortable curves. And that d-pad design is the best ever made. Why did Sega abandon that design for the Dreamcast? That never made any sense to me. All really needed to do was add the analog stick to the center of this joypad, ala N64 or PSX dual shock, and they would have been fine.

 

[longdi]

Nah, i found genesis lack of colors made its games look dated.

 

[dirthead]

This is a fantastic controller. There are many days when I prefer it to the Saturn controller, thanks to its comfortable curves. And that d-pad design is the best ever made. Why did Sega abandon that design for the Dreamcast? That never made any sense to me. All really needed to do was add the analog stick to the center of this joypad, ala N64 or PSX dual shock, and they would have been fine.

It's dangerous to ask "why" about Sega hardware. They were pretty nuts (in a bad way).

 

[dirthead]

Well whatever variables there were back then, most 16bit games probably cost 1% of what it costs to make games today, which FAR outstrips the stuff you have mentioned there.

Exactly. Fully featured games that weren't even considered rush jobs were done in like 8-10 months back then. Almost every seminal 16-bit era game you can think of was developed from start to finish in under a year.

The average B game today takes a team of at least 20 like two years+.

 

[Deleted member 738976]

Nah, i found genesis lack of colors made its games look dated.

Here have some colors

 

[cireza]

The Genesis also had a smaller resolution compared to the SNES, which is why the sprites look so damn big and blurry when compared to SNES games.

You had this wrong. It is the other way around. SNES : 256 * 224 = blurry, Genesis : 320 * 224 : sharp

 

[Alpolio]

I remember that during the start of the 16-bit era, the Genesis regularly stomped on the SNES's visuals in cross platform games. That's pretty much all EGM talked about during those early days. This is what started the 16-bit war. I was totally convinced that the SNES's lower res & slower CPU had doomed Nintendo to 2nd place. I still have my 1992 EGM Buyers Guide. Here's a page from it...

 

[drotahorror]

Yeah I used to buy new games at Toys R Us for $60. With inflation that is worth ~$100 in 2018 money

I remember games having more similar prices to this



I recall looking at a jcpenny catalogue for an xmas gift from my grandma, she told me to pick out a game I wanted. I picked Mega Man 5 (NES) and it was $89.99.

I also remember paying around $70 for Mortal Kombat 2 (Genesis) on release.

 

[Hudo]

So, this thread is among my favourites on GAF. Inspired by it (I like Motorla 68k assembly), I was looking for some info about the VDP and found an interesting read. Sorry if I'm late to the party with this, haha.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

So, this thread is among my favourites on GAF. Inspired by it (I like Motorla 68k assembly), I was looking for some info about the VDP and found an interesting read. Sorry if I'm late to the party with this, haha.

Cool find.

 

[dogen]

The unfortunate lack of scaling (at the time) cost the Genesis a decent home conversion of Space Harrier.

Yep, the guy designing the hardware wanted to include that capability (and 128k of VRAM which would have allowed more colors, among other things. traces of it are still there, overdrive 2 exploits this) but was removed due to the required size and resulting cost.

There are also a few weird things about the YM2612 PCM and Z80 inter-operation. The didn't connect the 2612 interrupt to the Z80, along with a couple other things.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/18...apabilites-and-soud-chips/page-2#entry3101188

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/18...s-sound-capabilites-and-soud-chips/?p=3106930

Not really sure if I agree with willy about better PCM bringing the genesis to a whole other level lol. Couldn't have hurt though.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

One of my favs. I have the American version but we won’t talk about that.

 

[DeepEnigma]

One of my favs. I have the American version but we won’t talk about that.

Was there a difference in the American version?

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Was there a difference in the American version?

Name and box art. There may be some sensoring but I can’t remeber. Google Soliers of Fortune Genesis

 

[DeepEnigma]

Name and box art. There may be some sensoring but I can’t remeber. Google Soliers of Fortune Genesis

Will do, thanks!

 

[RAIDEN1]

Since someone brought it up, here is the definitive Eternal Champions video.



I am sad to say I learned that there was an actual equal to Eternal Champion's on the Sega CD from this video. which I never played. I always thought it was just an enhanced version of the original like other Sega CD games.

Had the developers not turned their attention to developing the ill-conceived spin offs, they just might have been able to pull of a 3rd installment, though not on the Saturn...as by 1995...2d fighters were on their way out....Virtua Fighter was the benchmark..

 

[dolabla]

Are there any horror games like Clock Tower on the Genesis? Or what are some good horror games in general on the Genesis?

I've been playing my Genesis the last few days and have the itch to try something I've never played before.

 

[Jarbloko]

 

[cartman414]

Always wondered about the idea of creating FPGAs to recreate hypotheticals like the above more powerful SNES and Genesis specs that could have been, or that "Famicom '87" that one guy imagined.