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[Pie Lord]

What schools are usually considered top tier?

University of California, Berkeley, Boalt Hall School of Law, in Berkeley, CA.
University of Chicago Law School, University of Chicago, in Chicago, IL.
Columbia Law School, Columbia University, in New York, NY.
Cornell Law School, Cornell University, in Ithaca, NY.
Duke University School of Law, Duke University, in Durham, NC.
Georgetown University Law Center, Georgetown University, in Washington, DC.
Harvard Law School, Harvard University, in Cambridge, MA.
University of Michigan Law School, University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor, MI.
New York University School of Law, New York University, in New York, NY.
Northwestern University School of Law, Northwestern University, in Chicago, IL.
University of Pennsylvania Law School, University of Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia, PA.
Stanford Law School, Stanford University, in Palo Alto, CA.
University of Virginia School of Law, University of Virginia, in Charlottesville, VA.
Yale Law School, Yale University, in New Haven, CT.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Georgetown University, I presume?

See this is what I'm talking about. It's just too easy to narrow down this sort of stuff. Makes me really uncomfortable, because I like being able to express my opinion on Gaf without feeling like it could impact me outside of here. Obviously I try to be respectful and everything but you never know who takes offense to what or how someone will perceive what you said on the internet.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Think I got the confident part down. The only thing I'm worried about is finding internships and summer employment at the moment. When should I start applying for those (1L here)?

see your career services office. You should start looking/researching around christmas break, at the least.

Also are your grades just based off finals or are there papers as well?

in 1L, I had 2 midterms between all of my classes. The rest were all based on the final exam. This doesn't include writing classes, where you turn in papers throughout. After that, there is more variety, but 1L has to be artificially difficult to inflate the prestige of the profession, so it's that completely illogical "one test, one grade" thing.

What is law review (if that's what it's called)?

A journal in a particular area that the school puts out. If you get top of the class, you get a spot to write for the law review, which will float you to the top of application piles.

What can I do to set myself apart from the pack? I'm not going to the best school in the region or anything, but my school does have a very strong reputation within Boston.

get good grades, get on law review, and network your ass off. That's it!

 

[commish]

What schools are usually considered top tier?

Harvard, Yale, Cooley, Columbia, NYU.... the usual suspects.

 

[elrechazado]

See this is what I'm talking about. It's just too easy to narrow down this sort of stuff. Makes me really uncomfortable, because I like being able to express my opinion on Gaf without feeling like it could impact me outside of here. Obviously I try to be respectful and everything but you never know who takes offense to what or how someone will perceive what you said on the internet.

You could have said "top 15" rather than "14"

 

[Angry Grimace]

Georgetown University, I presume?

Georgetown won't be T14 for much longer, book it.

 

[Pollux]

Georgetown won't be T14 for much longer, book it.

What makes you say that?

Also can this be the thread to come to for advice on legal issues for us law students who need advice on a class?

 

[Pie Lord]

Georgetown won't be T14 for much longer, book it.

Oh?

 

[Angry Grimace]

What makes you say that?

Because Texas is going to overtake it any day now because the common consensus is that Georgetown is overrated and the worthiness of a degree there is far less than the other 13. In fact, Texas was tied for 14 last time they did a poll.

Harvard, Yale, Cooley, Columbia, NYU.... the usual suspects.

I think you mean Cornell lmao

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

Tip #2: If your believe "international law" is an actual career where you ride a bike to work in Paris where you argue passionately in from Swiss tribunals to free refugees and bust war criminals, don't go law school. That job doesn't actually exist. Real international law tends to involve tedious translation of contracts and conflict of law disputes.

I specialized in international tax law and I've worked in Paris, London, New York and Sydney (where I am now). Plus I have two of the three console manufacturers as my clients. Win and win.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

You could have said "top 15" rather than "14"

I honestly know very little about the rankings. Didn't realize GW had gone up so much since I applied. I only know the bs T14 ranking from the god awful months I spent on Top-Law-Schools while I was applying. For the record I don't think its a good idea for people to go to that site for more than maybe 2 hours when you first decide you want to apply to law school.

Georgetown won't be T14 for much longer, book it.

And the only people who will care are the administrators who are making their living off that ridiculous publication. I really like my school. Much better experience than I've had with any other administration, ranking changes wouldn't have impacted my choice much.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I specialized in international tax law and I've worked in Paris, London, New York and Sydney (where I am now). Plus I have two of the three console manufacturers as my clients. Win and win.

Yeah, but your job probably involves actually useful tax law; that isn't the type of hip international law that naive people enroll in law school for.

 

[Pollux]

I honestly know very little about the rankings. Didn't realize GW had gone up so much since I applied. I only know the bs T14 ranking from the god awful months I spent on Top-Law-Schools while I was applying. For the record I don't think its a good idea for people to go to that site for more than maybe 2 hours when you first decide you want to apply to law school.

That site is terrible. The worst part is people who get on from the T14 and bash us going to T3 and T4 schools telling us we suck at life, will never get a job, and should probably either go kill ourselves or think of a good act to preform on a street corner b/c thats what we'll be doing in 4-5 years anyway.

Ugh. hate it.

Yeah, but your job probably involves actually useful tax law; that isn't the type of hip international law that naive people enroll in law school for.

My GF's friend is going to law school b/c she wants to be Elle Woods from Legally Blonde.

 

[Pie Lord]

Yeah, but your job probably involves actually useful tax law; that isn't the type of hip international law that naive people enroll in law school for.

Out of curiosity, who exactly do you consider the "naive people" who enroll in law school? Those who watch a few episode of Boston Legal and decide that's what they want to do or something along those lines, yes?

 

[braves01]

So, how much of an advantage is it to attend a T1 school rather than a T2 that is more affordable? And where do the T2 and T3 brackets roughly begin and end? e.g. T2 = 15-30, T3= 31-50, and so on.

I'm just curious because I stumble into Lawyer-Age every once in a while and ALWAYS see these mentioned, but have yet to see a good explanation or find the effort to search for one.

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

Yeah, but your job probably involves actually useful tax law; that isn't the type of hip international law that naive people enroll in law school for.

Well yeah, but vanilla international law can lead to a career in foreign affairs which will give you all that lifestyle and then some.

My advice to OP: always have a plan B in mind cos working 80-100 hours/week gets old very quickly.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Out of curiosity, who exactly do you consider the "naive people" who enroll in law school? Those who watch a few episode of Boston Legal and decide that's what they want to do or something along those lines, yes?

People who go to law school with no actual plan other than "I want to do international law," and don't have any definition for international law beyond the term itself.

So, how much of an advantage is it to attend a T1 school rather than a T2 that is more affordable? And where do the T2 and T3 brackets roughly begin and end? e.g. T2 = 15-30, T3= 31-50, and so on.

I'm just curious because I stumble into Lawyer-Age every once in a while and ALWAYS see these mentioned, but have yet to see a good explanation or find the effort to search for one.

It's hard to say. The tiers are mostly self invented and they don't actually exist within the USNWR rankings, there's just a Top 100 and the Top 14 classical (which now is actually the top 15 because USNWR no longer ranks Georgetown as the sole No. 14 and Texas has tied them, despite being better than Georgetown in most measurable aspects), going to a school ranked No. 49 vs. a No. 51 doesn't necessarily mean that much. Generally, the top 50 schools are considered Tier 1, although in reality the T-14 are in a different league than the Top 16-49, 50-99 are considered Tier 2 and then there are the regional shit schools beyond that, affectionately known as the Third Tier Toilet (TTT) schools.

 

[Pollux]

Well yeah, but vanilla international law can lead to a career in foreign affairs which will give you all that lifestyle and then some.

My advice to OP: always have a plan B in mind cos work 80-100 hours/week gets old very quickly.

Just to point out the OP is from 2009. I bumped this because the OP went to BC and I went to BU and was curious as how his law career worked out.

 

[Pie Lord]

So, how much of an advantage is it to attend a T1 school rather than a T2 that is more affordable? And where do the T2 and T3 brackets roughly begin and end? e.g. T2 = 15-30, T3= 31-50, and so on.

I'm just curious because I stumble into Lawyer-Age every once in a while and ALWAYS see these mentioned, but have yet to see a good explanation or find the effort to search for one.

A T1 school with give you a big advantage over everyone else. Though a T2 school can be decent depending upon the market it's located in. As for the brackets my understand has been alongs these lines.
T1 = 1 - 20/25
T2 = 20/25 - 75
T3 and T4 are complete jokes for the most part, so the numbers really don't matter.

 

[Angry Grimace]

A T1 school with give you a bid advantage over everyone else. Though a T2 school can be decent depending upon the market it's located in. As for the brackets my understand has been alongs these lines.
T1 = 1 - 20/25
T2 = 20/25 - 75
T3 and T4 are complete jokes for the most part, so the numbers really don't matter.

This is wrong, the third and fourth tier schools are schools that aren't in the Top 100. This is just the generalized definition of course, there is no such thing as "tiers" beyond self-defined terms. I mean, you could define it that way, but that's not what it means when people say "Tier 1" or "Tier 2"

 

[mingus]

Harvard, Yale, Cooley, Columbia, NYU.... the usual suspects.

LOL

 

[Pollux]

This is wrong.

From now on no one can say "this is wrong" "you are stupid"....y'all got to elaborate hoss.

 

[Angry Grimace]

From now on no one can say "this is wrong" "you are stupid"....y'all got to elaborate hoss.

It's wrong because that's not how its normally defined; see above. But really it doesn't mean anything because the only rankings that matter are USN rankings, and they don't actually put schools into tiers, but traditionally people think of them as Tier 1 and 2 and then everything outside it is TTT schools.

For the most part the rankings are fucking bullshit and you get the same fucking education anywhere, and the upper crust aren't less smart at T4 schools from T2 schools at all. If you can't amjur every class at a T2 school you aren't going to amjur every class at a T4 because those schools are filled with tryhards.

 

[Pie Lord]

This is wrong, the third and fourth tier schools are schools that aren't in the Top 100. This is just the generalized definition of course, there is no such thing as "tiers" beyond self-defined terms. I mean, you could define it that way, but that's not what it means when people say "Tier 1" or "Tier 2"

What do most people mean when they say T1 and T2 then? Because I've most often heard the term T2 applied to schools outside of the top 20/25.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

What do most people mean when they say T1 and T2 then? Because I've most often heard the term T2 applied to schools outside of the top 20/25.

This entire conversation couldn't be more pointless. I don't get how lawyers/law students so consistently end up on the topic of rankings when actually trying to help someone.

 

[Pollux]

It's wrong because that's not how its normally defined; see above. But really it doesn't mean anything because the only rankings that matter are USN rankings, and they don't actually put schools into tiers, but traditionally people think of them as Tier 1 and 2 and then everything outside it is TTT schools.

For the most part the rankings are fucking bullshit and you get the same fucking education anywhere, and the upper crust aren't less smart at T4 schools from T2 schools at all. If you can't amjur every class at a T2 school you aren't going to amjur every class at a T4 because those schools are filled with tryhards.

So I can still get a job making 70K coming out of a T3 school? The thing I hate is when everyone tells me Big Law or bust. If I get a job at Big Law, then yea I'll take it, but if i'm not making 160K starting out I don't think I'm a failure like my buddy who went to a T14. Refuses to take any job outside of Big Law.

 

[Angry Grimace]

What do most people mean when they say T1 and T2 then? Because I've most often heard the term T2 applied to schools outside of the top 20/25.

As I said, generally the top 50 are Tier 1, and then the 50-100 are Tier 2 and then stuff outside of that is just generally third tier unranked schools. There really is no such thing as a Tier 4.

Going to an unranked school is the worst idea ever unless you already have a job or want to be self-employed AND they give you a fuckload of money.

So I can still get a job making 70K coming out of a T3 school?

Not a chance, unless you happen to get into JAG or something or amjur every class plus are EIC of Law Review. The problem is that the market is over-saturated so you can pay attorneys paralegal salaries and get away with it.

 

[Pie Lord]

This entire conversation couldn't be more pointless. I don't get how lawyers/law students so consistently end up on the topic of rankings when actually trying to help someone.

I think it mostly stems from the fact that most law students are interested in big law, so rankings can prove to be quite important.

So I can still get a job making 70K coming out of a T3 school?

Perhaps, but it won't be as easy as it would coming out a T1/2 school. And don't get your hopes up for big law.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think it mostly stems from the fact that most law students are interested in big law, so rankings can prove to be quite important.

Exactly; because the people who hire you care about the rankings. Scalia once said he would hire a moron from top school over the No. 1 ranked person from a lower ranked school.

 

[Pollux]

Exactly; because the people who hire you care about the rankings. Scalia once said he would hire a moron from top school over the No. 1 ranked person from a lower ranked school.

This makes no sense to me....

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Exactly; because the people who hire you care about the rankings. Scalia once said he would hire a moron from top school over the No. 1 ranked person from a lower ranked school.

That's a bit of a mischaracterization of the quote... He said he'd hire from middle of the class at Harvard over top at American or something like that. He was solely talking about his hiring though which pretty much requires top talent, and even he's had clerks from lower tiered schools.

I agree that BigLaw hiring is relevant but the minute details of the rankings really aren't even relevant to that.

 

[commish]

This makes no sense to me....

Law is a VERY prestige-driven field. Just keep that in mind at all times.

 

[Angry Grimace]

This makes no sense to me....

Because the assholes who hire people don't care about anything but appearances.

That's a bit of a mischaracterization of the quote... He said he'd hire from middle of the class at Harvard over top at American or something like that. He was solely talking about his hiring though which pretty much requires top talent, and even he's had clerks from lower tiered schools.

I agree that BigLaw hiring is relevant but the minute details of the rankings really aren't even relevant to that.

Less a mischaracterization than the fact I never heard the actual quote; it's just third party info. But its still the same basic point; it's an image field and there's no evidence at all that there's a difference in the quality of education at any accredited schools.

 

[Pie Lord]

Not a chance, unless you happen to get into JAG or something or amjur every class plus are EIC of Law Review. The problem is that the market is over-saturated so you can pay attorneys paralegal salaries and get away with it.

I think you're being a bit to pessimistic. The field is overcrowded, yes, but most small firms still seem to have starting salaries around 60k. A 70k starting salary from a T3 school would be very unlikely, but not impossible.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think you're being a bit to pessimistic. The field is overcrowded, yes, but most small firms still seem to have starting salaries around 60k. A 70k starting salary from a T3 school would be very unlikely, but not impossible.

Let's not forget the fact you still have to pay off like 100K in loans.

And I GO to a TTT school so I can tell you that its pretty grim - I only even bothered to go because I have a job through family. Most of the people I knew who graduated are unemployed because the people they did their internships with aren't hiring and they never gave any consideration to hanging a shingle. The fact is, if you get out of school and you don't get relevant legal experience within a year or so, you're toast because nobody will hire you because they can hire someone from a fresher class

In some places the students are starting to sue schools for misleading employment stats (i.e. they include people working at McDonalds)

 

[Pie Lord]

Let's not forget the fact you still have to pay off like 100K in loans.

And I GO to a TTT school so I can tell you that its pretty grim - I only even bothered to go because I have a job through family. Everyone I know who graduated is unemployed and the students are starting to sue schools for misleading employment stats.

That explains a lot of your frustration.

 

[Angry Grimace]

That explains a lot of your frustration.

I already have a job so I don't give two shits at all about the rankings, I just don't understand the mindsets of other people at the school. There's no reason to bother showing up if you have no pre-existing plan.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Just to provide another viewpoint, I'm a 3L and I still really love law school. I applied after years of hating the idea, since I grew up with people telling me I should be a lawyer. It's a lot of work (if you're like me and need to do all your reading), but most classes are really interesting. Perhaps I've just been blessed with really good professors, but I've looked forward to attending the majority of my classes.

This makes me want to at least give law school a chance.

I do echo what other posters have said though...especially this: Law school creates overwhelming self-doubt in yourself. If you're not the top 10% of the class (and let's face it, 90% of us aren't), you're usually killing yourself for not doing better or trying to figure out how to improve or cursing that your entire grade is based off one stupid fact pattern. This only gets worse when applying for your post-graduation job, where you soon realize you're up against not just your classmates, but students from all over the country. I cannot quantify how much time I've spent wishing I spent a little more time on this brief, or spend a little more time making connections with these people or taken some other class that would look good to an employer. If you're not overwhelmingly confident/cocky/sure of yourself going in, you're going to struggle.

This makes me not.

I can't explain it, but I really like the Idea of going to law school but the monthly threads of don't do it they're all greedy assholes and you will never get a job and hate your life forever really kills it for me. Also does the world really need more lawyers?

 

[AstroLad]

angry grimace saying pretty much what i'd be saying

 

[Pie Lord]

I already have a job so I don't give two shits at all about the rankings, I just don't understand the mindsets of other people at the school. There's no reason to bother showing up if you have no pre-existing plan.

Fair enough, I agree with you for the most part. Doesn't change the fact that you're one of the most pessimistic law students I've ever seen.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Fair enough, I agree with you for the most part. Doesn't change the fact that you're one of the most pessimistic law students I've ever seen.

Because the law school system, particularly at low ranked regional schools is fucking bullshit and pretty much exists to obfuscate reality to the people who pay $120,000 in tuition to go there.

All you have to do to figure out what the problem is notice this: The average "employment after graduation" rate at TTT law schools is LOWER than the bar passage rate for the same period.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

I can't explain it, but I really like the Idea of going to law school but the monthly threads of don't do it they're all greedy assholes and you will never get a job and hate your life forever really kills it for me. Also does the world really need more lawyers?

This should be setting off alarms in your head. You need more than "an idea." I wasn't sure I wanted to go until I saw work that lawyers did, understood why so many people hated it, and decided that I could tolerate it. Takes a certain type of person.

 

[Pollux]

This should be setting off alarms in your head. You need more than "an idea." I wasn't sure I wanted to go until I saw work that lawyers did, understood why so many people hated it, and decided that I could tolerate it. Takes a certain type of person.

This is what happened with me. I hated the idea of going to law school, but through a family friend who was the DA i got an internship at his office. Did some work there and now know that I want nothing to do with criminal law, however I also had a chance to work with some IP Copyright lawyers and property lawyers and found their work to be fascinating.

Also the 80 hour weeks don't bother me. I did 70+ hour weeks at two jobs for hourly wage and that was hell and I will do anything not to go back to that shit.

 

[Angry Grimace]

This should be setting off alarms in your head. You need more than "an idea." I wasn't sure I wanted to go until I saw work that lawyers did, understood why so many people hated it, and decided that I could tolerate it. Takes a certain type of person.

I don't think there's a problem with changing your mind, but really, you should have an idea of what the lawyer of your chosen specialty actually does before you commit hundreds of thousands of dollars to it.

For example, I personally think criminal law is a sucky field; you're either busting innocent people or getting people with DUIs off when they shouldn't. But then again, salaried government jobs are looking more and more attractive and more difficult to get all the time.

And I don't know how guy above me can take 80 hour weeks. I'd shoot myself.

 

[Pollux]

I don't think there's a problem with changing your mind, but really, you should have an idea of what the lawyer of your chosen specialty actually does before you commit hundreds of thousands of dollars to it.

For example, I personally think criminal law is a sucky field; you're either busting innocent people or getting people with DUIs off when they shouldn't. But then again, salaried government jobs are looking more and more attractive and more difficult to get all the time.

And I don't know how guy above me can take 80 hour weeks. I'd shoot myself.

Because hourly work making minimum wage making fucking smoothies and folding clothes makes me want to shoot myself.

 

[SteveWinwood]

This should be setting off alarms in your head. You need more than "an idea." I wasn't sure I wanted to go until I saw work that lawyers did, understood why so many people hated it, and decided that I could tolerate it. Takes a certain type of person.

I'm far from committed to it don't worry, but I am always keeping it in my mind. I think patent law is endlessly fascinating (even if a bit obtuse at times) and is probably the only law field I would ever consider. I would love to try to get a job as a clerk or something just to see what its like.

 

[AstroLad]

that's not really the dilemma though. tens of thousands of quality unemployed lawyers out there that would be happy to work literally any hours

 

[state-of-the-art]

I'll be graduating with a B.S. in biophysics soon and was considering going to law school with the intention to practice patent law so long as I was admitted into a top 50 law school.

But is the legal market so bad that anybody practicing any type of law is at risk of being unemployed?

 

[commish]

I'll be graduating with a B.S. in biophysics soon and was considering going to law school with the intention to practice patent law so long as I was admitted into a top 50 law school.

But is the legal market so bad that anybody practicing any type of law is at risk of being unemployed?

Consider becoming a patent agent at a firm first and then going to school.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'll be graduating with a B.S. in biophysics soon and was considering going to law school with the intention to practice patent law so long as I was admitted into a top 50 law school.

But is the legal market so bad that anybody practicing any type of law is at risk of being unemployed?

There are certain fields which are very employable, but those fields tend to be fields that require additional specialties.

Because hourly work making minimum wage making fucking smoothies and folding clothes makes me want to shoot myself.

80 hours of legal work isn't more fun than folding clothes because you don't have to take folding clothes home with you and it requires almost no thought. Any fun which you derive from being a good lawyer goes down the drain when you're working more than 60 hours.