LTTP: Dune

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MrOogieBoogie

BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
Excellent book. Really loved all the characters and the massive changes they underwent thanks to Dune's awesomely gritty and relentless setting. Also loved Herbert's fearlessness as a writer to kill seemingly major characters off in the blink of an eye, make you hate a character one second and love him/her the very next, and basically keep you on the edge of your seat the entire time.

I did have a couple questions, though:

1. What happened to Paul's
sister, Alia? At the end he mentions that she's out slaying wounded Harkonnen and Sarduaker, but is that it? I assume her story is elaborated on in the sequels.

2. Also,
Alia at one point calls the Baron "Grandfather." I understand that Paul and his mother are part Harkonnen, but why is the Baron their grandfather?
I feel like I'm overlooking something very obvious here.

Last couple of chapters were impossible to put down.
 
Dune is quite possibly one of the greatest works of fiction ever. Frank Herbert is very well versed in philosophy, and the entire book is actually a dialogue on human nature. The first book just sets up the stage. If you stop at Dune, it's like stopping at Genesis in the Bible.

Read on sir!

Edit:
1) Alia's fate is elaborated on in subsequent books.
2) I don't recall Paul's family tree to a tee, just that there's some relationship there.
 
Regarding question number 2:

the Baron is Lady Jessica's father, hence Paul's and Alia's Grandfather. Alia's story will be much mor important beginning with book 2.
 
I was late to the book as well. I had seen the horrible David Lynch film and the great Sci Fi Channel mini series many times, but never got around to the book. Around Christmas, I finally gave in.

I spent most of the time reading the book being in a continuously pissed off state. I was pissed off I had waited so long to read something so awesome.

Afterwards, I watched the movies again. The Lynch movie got worse after reading the book, and the Sci Fi channel one got better. Really the only thing holding back the Sci Fi channel one was some casting and the budget.
 
bangai-o said:
Paul's wife on the Sci Fi show is gorgeous.
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19146039.jpg


Quite
 
PhoncipleBone said:
I was late to the book as well. I had seen the horrible David Lynch film and the great Sci Fi Channel mini series many times, but never got around to the book. Around Christmas, I finally gave in.

I spent most of the time reading the book being in a continuously pissed off state. I was pissed off I had waited so long to read something so awesome.

Afterwards, I watched the movies again. The Lynch movie got worse after reading the book, and the Sci Fi channel one got better. Really the only thing holding back the Sci Fi channel one was some casting and the budget.
Click to expand...
You didn't like the guns that fired when you yell? You know, the Weirding Module?

Ugh.
 
Rodney McKay said:
You didn't like the guns that fired when you yell? You know, the Weirding Module?

Ugh.
Click to expand...

Nope. But, some of the design elements of the Lynch version are awesome. And the cast was fantastic for the most part. It is just a shame that they had a shit script to work with.
 
PhoncipleBone said:
Nope. But, some of the design elements of the Lynch version are awesome. And the cast was fantastic for the most part. It is just a shame that they had a shit script to work with.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Loved the cast. I just don't know where the hell they came up with those scream guns.
 
Fritz said:
Regarding question number 2:

the Baron is Lady Jessica's father, hence Paul's and Alia's Grandfather. Alia's story will be much mor important beginning with book 2.
Click to expand...
Elaborating on that, it should be pointed out that Jessica was conceived as part of the Bene Gesserit breeding program, the ultimate goal of which was to create the Kwisatz Haderach. With the Baron as the father, the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam was technically the maternal figure, although I am unsure as to whether she incubated Jessica naturally or through some other, more supernatural means.
 
shira said:
Too bad star wars ripped a lot of scifi from dune
Click to expand...
Like what? SW doesn't seem to share anything in common with Dune.

Someone already answered 2. It has been years since I read the book but I believe that for 2 Paul spells it out after he
becomes the Kwisatz Haderach he tells his mother that he saw it in the future that she was his daughter, this is back in the day when he was not into kids. As the KW Paul can see into the future and also has the cool control over his cells that the Bene Gesserit have along with the ability to look back into his bloodlines.

As for 1, Alia becomes a pretty important character in the later books. I highly recommend you read up until God Emperor and then stop. Don't read after that and whatever you do don't read the trash his son wrote to explain how it all ends. 'The Golden Path' is a great way to end the series IMHO.
 
shira said:
Too bad star wars ripped a lot of scifi from dune
Click to expand...

If anything, Avatar was just a reimagining of Dune with a little bit of Anne McAffrey's Pern series thrown in.

At the theater when the Navi started chanting "Turok Maktu" at Sully, I turned to my wife and said "Muad'dib! Muad'dib!"
 
Isn't it pointed out somewhere that
Jessica was conceived the "classic" way, which is extraordinary considering that the Baron is into little boys. Wasn't he also drugged?
 
As for 1, Alia becomes a pretty important character in the later books. I highly recommend you read up until God Emperor and then stop. Don't read after that and whatever you do don't read the trash his son wrote to explain how it all ends. 'The Golden Path' is a great way to end the series IMHO.
Click to expand...
I would have warned him away from what his son wrote, but I have obliterated it from memory.
 
Fritz said:
Isn't it pointed out somewhere that
Jessica was conceived the "classic" way, which is extraordinary considering that the Baron is into little boys. Wasn't he also drugged?
Click to expand...
Yeah I believe that is how it happened. But that might have been explained in one of the Abominations that came after the original series.

And it is pretty funny which character in the original series is somehow still around and relevant in the last 5 books when you consider he didn't seem that important at all in the first book.

MASSIVE SPOILER
Why exactly did Duncan become so important to the Atreides and humanity in later books?
 
Welcome aboard.

I used to think less of the sequels, but after going back to them with more maturity under my belt I think they are excellent works - not as the first novel, but good enough.

Keep in mind that Children of Dune is where the current style ends. Herbert made a deliberate choice to shift focus starting on God Emperor, which coupled with the unusual characters have turned readers off. I for one enjoyed it immensely. Besides,
Miles Teg is fucking awesome
.

Do not read his son's prequels and sequels, they are all rubbish of the lowest order. Seriously, don't even read summaries of them. I wish I didn't.

I'm working on illustrating some Dune ideas. Such rich universe.
 
Norante said:
Welcome aboard.

I used to think less of the sequels, but after going back to them with more maturity under my belt I think they are excellent works - not as the first novel, but good enough.

Keep in mind that Children of Dune is where the current style ends. Herbert made a deliberate choice to shift focus starting on God Emperor, which coupled with the unusual characters have turned readers off. I for one enjoyed it immensely.

Besides,
Miles Teg is fucking awesome
.

I'm working on illustrating some Dune ideas. Such rich universe.
Click to expand...
I assume without looking you are spoilering the Bashar Miles Teg.
 
bionic77 said:
As for 1, Alia becomes a pretty important character in the later books. I highly recommend you read up until God Emperor and then stop. Don't read after that and whatever you do don't read the trash his son wrote to explain how it all ends. 'The Golden Path' is a great way to end the series IMHO.
Click to expand...

God Emperor is probably my favorite book of the series, so while this isn't bad advice necessarily, the next two books are right on par with it and the first book (book 2 being the only weak one in the series, and only the first half which is sets up the very entertaining second half). I would also advise against reading the trash that his son wrote to finish the series up. It literally shits on the series, especially the second of the two books, which finally put me in such a rage that I never did finish the last 85 pages. I've wiped them from my memory. It may be hard to resist reading them since Frank's final book ends on an absolutely insane note, but don't give in.

You should read all of Frank's books though. He has some fantastic ideas in the series and it sucks that you never get to see them go anywhere. He really continues to explore a lot of religious, scientific, and a number of philosophical issues throughout. He does introduce a lot of really weird ideas, which is why I've seen some of GAF advise against reading beyond either book 1 or book 3. They're worth your time, though.
 
I'm about half way through the first book and absolutely loving it. I just wish I had the time to read all of Frank's books in the series before classes start up again.
 
coldvein said:
i still love the lynch movie.
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I think the Lynch movie would have worked if they casted a better Paul and made it longer. Maclaughlin was too green and emoted like driftwood. It was especially apparent when Lynch surrounded him with all these hugely powerful actors around him.

But the iconography and set design of the movie was spot-on. It's especially impressive when you compare it to other sci-fi movies of it's time. They will never be able to remake a Dune movie without Lynch's ideas being hugely influential on the look.
 
Norante said:
Welcome aboard.

I used to think less of the sequels, but after going back to them with more maturity under my belt I think they are excellent works - not as the first novel, but good enough.

Keep in mind that Children of Dune is where the current style ends. Herbert made a deliberate choice to shift focus starting on God Emperor, which coupled with the unusual characters have turned readers off. I for one enjoyed it immensely. Besides,
Miles Teg is fucking awesome
.

Do not read his son's prequels and sequels, they are all rubbish of the lowest order. Seriously, don't even read summaries of them. I wish I didn't.

I'm working on illustrating some Dune ideas. Such rich universe.
Click to expand...
God Emperor was really cool but I didn't like the books after that.

While Miles Teg is awesome, too much time has passed since the original books and I don't really care about the space whores or that Duncan's penis is the one thing that could save the galaxy. Probably should have just been a different series after God Emperor.
 
bionic77 said:
MASSIVE SPOILER
Why exactly did Duncan become so important to the Atreides and humanity in later books?
Click to expand...

End of series spoilers!

Presumably, he was to be the final Kwisatz Haderach as Brian Herbert finished the series off that way (and that seems logical). The past memories of all of his gholas are unleashed and he had lived hundreds of lives which triggers all sorts of internal reactions. Leto II, being able to see every possible future, set everything on course for him to become an important character and save humanity: this is the Golden Path. The Bene Gesserit continued the cloning and experimentation when Leto died for another thousand years or however long. Eventually Duncan is able to prevent the man-machine apocalypse from occurring (according to Brian's books) because is he the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach. The machines were what everybody was running from after the great scattering following the fall of Leto II's great empire. Some of this could be a little shaky since I haven't read 'em in a while, but that should be about right. I don't quite remember all the details :p
 
I've always been interested in checking this book out, I had no idea it was this well received. Once I catch up with the ASOIAF series I'll definitely pick it up.
 
Sklorenz said:
End of series spoilers!

Presumably, he was to be the final Kwisatz Haderach as Brian Herbert finished the series off that way (and that seems logical). The past memories of all of his gholas are unleashed and he had lived hundreds of lives which triggers all sorts of internal reactions. Leto II, being able to see every possible future, set everything on course for him to become an important character and save humanity: this is the Golden Path. The Bene Gesserit continued the cloning and experimentation when Leto died for another thousand years or however long. Eventually Duncan is able to prevent the man-machine apocalypse from occurring (according to Brian's books) because is he the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach. The machines were what everybody was running from after the great scattering following the fall of Leto II's great empire. Some of this could be a little shaky since I haven't read 'em in a while, but that should be about right. I don't quite remember all the details :p
Click to expand...
I always thought that (avoid massive spoilers ahead)
Paul and Leto's vision showed them both the eventual extinction of humanity and that the Golden Path was to spread humanity out so far and so wide to avoid that self fulfilling vision.

As for the rest I never finished B Herbert's books because I thought they were garbage.
It just never sat well with me that the series would focus on a bit character from the first books when the best book was really just about the rivalry between 2 space families and they seem to be irrelevant by the time it ends.
 
bionic77 said:
Like what? SW doesn't seem to share anything in common with Dune.

Someone already answered 2. It has been years since I read the book but I believe that for 2 Paul spells it out after he
becomes the Kwisatz Haderach he tells his mother that he saw it in the future that she was his daughter, this is back in the day when he was not into kids. As the KW Paul can see into the future and also has the cool control over his cells that the Bene Gesserit have along with the ability to look back into his bloodlines.

As for 1, Alia becomes a pretty important character in the later books. I highly recommend you read up until God Emperor and then stop. Don't read after that and whatever you do don't read the trash his son wrote to explain how it all ends. 'The Golden Path' is a great way to end the series IMHO.
Click to expand...
Except the Golden Path makes no sense if you stop at God Emperor. DO NOT listen to this person.
 
I will admit that I watched the movie before reading the book. I was about eight years old and my late grandfather was visiting. He was an incredible science fiction enthusiast and when he learned I didn't know what Dune was, he went out to rent the VHS and we watched it together. A few years later when I was up to the challenge of a real novel, Dune was on the top of the list.

When he died, he left his entire book collection to me, including original publications from authors like Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke and of course Frank Herbert, among many others. I only received the collection a few months ago.
 
bionic77 said:
I always thought that (avoid massive spoilers ahead)
Paul and Leto's vision showed them both the eventual extinction of humanity and that the Golden Path was to spread humanity out so far and so wide to avoid that self fulfilling vision.
Click to expand...

More massive spoilers:
Ah, I think that might be right actually, as I remember Leto saying that it was necessary to prevent humanity's extinction by spreading them and hardening them against the harshness of the outer edges of space.

I do believe the path that Duncan was going down was intended by Leto as well, but I guess that might be arguable. He definitely was preserving him for breeding which would come back to creating the Kwisatz Haderach.
 
I finished the book a few weeks ago, and almost made a LTTP thread.

I loved it, for the most part. The geopolitical depth was staggering and his mastery of layered dialog was among the very best I've ever read. Plans within plans, meaning within the smallest phrasing shifts. Much of it was a pleasure to read, and the world he created has a stunning level of depth to it.

I had two over-arching issues with it.

First, I didn't like how often critical events were reported, rather than seen. I got the impression this was quite deliberate, showing how the ruling elites are isolated from the impacts of their actions. But way too many things are just casually reported rather than seen. Often it came across as Herbert building up to events, but he wasn't really interested in the outcome.

The last section of the book goes way the hell too fast. In the last third or so, Herbert spends 150 pages with
Paul and his mother wandering through the desert and joining a group of the freemen, and then proceeds to skip all the interesting things that happen after. Paul's training and his instruction on the weirding way to the people? Skipped. The death of his son? Reported offhand and barely registers then. What on earth was up with his sister? This flawlessly executed ambush and invasion of the Harkonens and the Emperor feels like it was given the briefest, least amount of detail possible so he could get it over with.

It just felt like Herbert was in this huge rush to get the book over with. I felt like 150 pages has been edited out of the ending of the book, and that 150 pages had most of the payoff.
 
Love the books, have read them a couple of times.

1-3 are really good
4 is a bit difficult because its very heady and monologue heavy
5-6 super great.

Stay away from the "new" ones by his son if your not into mediocre sci fi bla bla.
They dont have the depth and feel like the Star Wars prequels.
Thinned out ideas of something you loved.
 
Dune taught me to never trust old people who seem way too in to gardening.

Edit: For reals, the first book is fantastic, everything that follows gets more and more nonsensical. For a universe as vast as Dune's is, there's so much world-building that could not happen due to space constraints such that new and different factions pop in at every book leaving the reader thinking: "Who the fuck are these guys?"

Spoiler regarding a faction that comes in later
I never really figured out what the hell was up with the Bene Tleilax, and it's been so long that I've forgotten what I once knew regarding them. That bothers me, so if anyone can sum them up I'd appreciate it.

PhoncipleBone said:
If anything, Avatar was just a reimagining of Dune with a little bit of Anne McAffrey's Pern series thrown in.

At the theater when the Navi started chanting "Turok Maktu" at Sully, I turned to my wife and said "Muad'dib! Muad'dib!"
Click to expand...
This is so hilariously inaccurate I can't put it in to words.
 
PhoncipleBone said:
There are a lot of similarities between the two.
Click to expand...
There are some similarities in plot points but the overall story in Avatar is so far removed from Dune's that drawing comparisons is asinine.

Edit: Consider this: Dune would be more similar to Avatar is Paul was Harkonnen's son and went to rule Dune with an iron-fist to squeeze as much spice out of the people as possible, then ended up turning, joining the Fremen and killing his father (the Baron). And that's just not the story at all. Like not even close. They're not even remotely similar.
 
Dave Inc. said:
There are some similarities in plot points but the overall story in Avatar is so far removed from Dune's that drawing comparisons is asinine.
Click to expand...

The political parts of Dune are nowhere to be found in Avatar, but you cannot deny many similarities in the basic story of it and the way it all plays out. Denying that there are strong similarities in two is asinine.
 
AusQB said:
I will admit that I watched the movie before reading the book. I was about eight years old and my late grandfather was visiting. He was an incredible science fiction enthusiast and when he learned I didn't know what Dune was, he went out to rent the VHS and we watched it together. A few years later when I was up to the challenge of a real novel, Dune was on the top of the list.

When he died, he left his entire book collection to me, including original publications from authors like Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke and of course Frank Herbert, among many others. I only received the collection a few months ago.
Click to expand...

That's awesome. How many books in total would you say you received?
 
ZephyrFate said:
Except the Golden Path makes no sense if you stop at God Emperor. DO NOT listen to this person.
Click to expand...
:lol

Like the books make any sense after God Emperor. At least it had a real connection with the the first book.

Better to end on that then reading 1000 pages about
space whores and Duncan's magic penis.
 
PhoncipleBone said:
The political parts of Dune are nowhere to be found in Avatar, but you cannot deny many similarities in the basic story of it and the way it all plays out. Denying that there are strong similarities in two is asinine.
Click to expand...
I'm struggling with how to respond to this, it's just nonsense. Put the similarities you see in a spoiler tag so I can discard them out of hand.
 
Dave Inc. said:
Dune taught me to never trust old people who seem way too in to gardening.

Edit: For reals, the first book is fantastic, everything that follows gets more and more nonsensical. For a universe as vast as Dune's is, there's so much world-building that could not happen due to space constraints such that new and different factions pop in at every book leaving the reader thinking: "Who the fuck are these guys?"

Spoiler regarding a faction that comes in later
I never really figured out what the hell was up with the Bene Tleilax, and it's been so long that I've forgotten what I once knew regarding them. That bothers me, so if anyone can sum them up I'd appreciate it.
Click to expand...
I think you mean in Heretics and Chapterhouse, that they have
the new facedancers that are so good they forget they were imitating their target. And then there were the facedancers that Duncan saw at the end of Chapterhouse right?

I only read like 3-4 chapters into Hunters of Dune and I don't think I'll ever go back and read them. Then again I read the prequel novels before the original books (so sue me, and the only good part was
Duncan escaping from the Harkonnens
.

Also, I guess you could read the Butlerian Jihad novels, they were okay but too action sci-fi compared to Frank's novels. (Although it is interesting what is in the novel, which is supposed to be 'canon' according to his son who followed his father's notes vs. what is told in the appendices of Dune or what the characters tell as common knowledge of the time vs. what is in the Dune Encyclopedia).

If you read the Dune Encyclopedia, don't be lame and think it's canon. It's not really.
 
ToxicAdam said:
I think the Lynch movie would have worked if they casted a better Paul and made it longer. Maclaughlin was too green and emoted like driftwood. It was especially apparent when Lynch surrounded him with all these hugely powerful actors around him.
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But with the movie being what it is, you couldn't have someone better than Mclaughlin as Paul. It should've been a two-parter and it shouldn't have had the silly guns, such a shame. But it is a real beuty to look at, I doubt anyone would be able to match the visual bar set by Lynch in a new Dune movie.
 
AusQB said:
When he died, he left his entire book collection to me, including original publications from authors like Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke and of course Frank Herbert, among many others. I only received the collection a few months ago.
Click to expand...


that's just awesome. it's such a pleasure to come across old editions of books you love.. especially if they've got sentimental value to you like that. in the future this will never happen.. well maybe like.. "i found my grandfather's e-reader!". :(.
 
PhoncipleBone said:
The political parts of Dune are nowhere to be found in Avatar, but you cannot deny many similarities in the basic story of it and the way it all plays out. Denying that there are strong similarities in two is asinine.
Click to expand...


I don't really agree. If you are vague enough and draw circles wide enough, you can say all fantasy is the same because it usually involves an innocent, underdog hero thrust into a situation, where he must gather support among unlikely friends and then usurp the evil power and save the world/the girl. A rare and precious item/mineral/treasure that is coveted by opposing sides is just another subplot in almost every story also.

I thought Avatar's message was more about environmentalism and Dune was geared more towards politics/religion.
 
ToxicAdam said:
I don't really agree. If you are vague enough and draw circles wide enough, you can say all fantasy is the same because it usually involves an innocent, underdog hero thrust into a situation, where he must gather support among unlikely friends and then usurp the evil power and save the world/the girl. A rare and precious item/mineral/treasure that is coveted by opposing sides is just another subplot in almost every story also.

I thought Avatar's message was more about environmentalism and Dune was geared more towards politics/religion.
Click to expand...
I mean, if we really want to boil everything down, Avatar was Pocahontas in Space while Dune was Hamlet in Space.
 
ToxicAdam said:
I don't really agree. If you are vague enough and draw circles wide enough, you can say all fantasy is the same because it usually involves an innocent, underdog hero thrust into a situation, where he must gather support among unlikely friends and then usurp the evil power and save the world/the girl. A rare and precious item/mineral/treasure that is coveted by opposing sides is just another subplot in almost every story also.

I thought Avatar's message was more about environmentalism and Dune was geared more towards politics/religion.
Click to expand...

That's funny considering Herbert was a huge environmentalist.
 
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