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[Gameplay Gods Bless]

What's "engineer-years" ?

Work years. As in cumulative work hours on a project.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

10x the graphics power of the Switch puts it significantly ahead of the PS4. I assume this metric includes DLSS.

It has to count software. 256 Maxwell cuda cores on Switch 1 vs 1536 Ampere cuda cores on Switch 2 with improved clocks, and bandwidth. Doubt it's 10x, the Ampere RTX 3050 is only 6 times faster in fp32 compute (teraflops) than the Maxwell 950. Still this is a big leap for sure, hopefully they make a Switch 2 pro.

 

[proandrad]

So we can say:
- Switch 2 (with DLSS): PS4 Pro/Series S level?
- Switch 2 (without DLSS): Above PS4, below PS4 Pro?

DLSS doesn't increase the system's power, it just a upscaler.

 

[RodriGames40]

So we can say:
- Switch 2 (with DLSS): PS4 Pro/Series S level?
- Switch 2 (without DLSS): Above PS4, below PS4 Pro?

Series S/Pro with less memory bandwidth and substantially superior to PS4 respectively, yes. Just from raw power, not necessarily DLSS.

 

[Blitzkrieg!]

So we can say:
- Switch 2 (with DLSS): PS4 Pro/Series S level?
- Switch 2 (without DLSS): Above PS4, below PS4 Pro?

It's a Series S / PS4 Pro with better image quality.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

If they are using DLSS why are the games they have shown so far full of jaggies? It doesn't make sense

No games have been shown with DLSS yet. It might not be ready in the SDK. Also Nintendo hates using AA in most games, this has been an issue with them for decades despite the N64 having built in AA.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

4TFlops was always the rumor for docked mode so I guess the rumor was right?


CDPR confirmed that the playable version they had for the Switch 2 has only been in development for 7 weeks. They have yet to implement graphic modes or DLSS.

Why is NeoGAF girl some obese horned lady?

Maybe Nvidia is rounding up.

 

[Kataploom]

So we can say:
- Switch 2 (with DLSS): PS4 Pro/Series S level?
- Switch 2 (without DLSS): Above PS4, below PS4 Pro?

That's how it's been expected, yes, but Series S is still more powerful than Switch 2 and PS4 Pro, by how much and if Switch 2 can get pretty close to it frequently is another matter

 

[Woopah]

Switch 2 can't even run cel shaded Wii U game BOTW in 4k. What's it running in 4k, Mario Bros 1?

I think BOTW topping at 1440p should be a big indicator of what really to expect. IMO the system is good but not quite good enough to take advantage of DLSS in a better way.

It needs to both natively render the game at sufficient res and then have a bit of juice leftover for DLSS to use it. Switch 2 appears lacking in that extra 10% of power that could make a critical difference.

Just how I'm reading it at the moment, I hope not.

Both Mario Kart World and Prime 4 are in 4k I believe.

Imagine being impressed by 2013 graphics at those crazy prices in 2025.

Seriously you can't make it up.

That's like looking at a Vita and saying "imagine being impressed by 2000 graphics"

 

[dgrdsv]

Wonder if the 120fps modes will be with framegen.

The GPU is Ampere so only if someone would use FSR FG on a Sw2 title.

 

[Lysandros]

People genuinely believing that Switch 2 is at Series S level are being delusional.

 

[BlackTron]

Alright, so I guess the deal is that it can't do open world games in 4k60. Brand new games like Metroid that have smaller environments, 4k60 is no problem!

But I would have assumed 4k60 would be easier for BOTW to achieve than Metroid, despite being open world, because yeah it's a WiiU game.

 

[tkscz]

Why is NeoGAF girl some obese horned lady?

Maybe Nvidia is rounding up.

You must be new here. I like fat chicks.

Being 10x more powerful isn't just about the GPU and even then, the GPU cannot be measured by just TFLOP rates.

Architecture wise, Ampere could be seen as 10x stronger than Maxwell considering the time gap between the two.

 

[LordOcidax]

Both Mario Kart World and Prime 4 are in 4k I believe.

Both games are 4K60 native, and Prime 4 has a lot of improvements, not only a res bump.

 

[Kataploom]

Alright, so I guess the deal is that it can't do open world games in 4k60. Brand new games like Metroid that have smaller environments, 4k60 is no problem!

But I would have assumed 4k60 would be easier for BOTW to achieve than Metroid, despite being open world, because yeah it's a WiiU game.

They probably can but didn't bother to optimize it in 4K, maybe with a little effort in optimization it can run pristine at that resolution, but they just didn't give a damn about it

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yes, it is far too optimistic. That's why I think DLSS is included. Uncertain of the ML capabilities, but if it runs a game at 1080p upscaled to 4K while the Switch runs it at just 1080p, you're getting "double" the resolution or 4x the pixel count. Of course, we both know that 4K DLSS Performance is significantly less demanding than 4K+TAA.

That's where I think they got 10x from. Only way it makes sense to me, unless NVIDIA has snuck in frame generation in there, but I doubt it.

CoPilot estimated on a Tegra 239 chipset @ 1Ghz clock it would be 3TFLOPs for the SMs, and then it said a x8 multiplier was typically on Nvidia for TOPs, so 24TOPs was the guesstimate.

I would think using DLSS3 in ultra fast mode it would be at least 6ms for 1080p to 4K. The biggest issue is that DLSS on Nvidia cards effectively runs fused - processes everything in one forward pass through the SMs - but with so few SMs - think CoPilot said 12 SMs for the chip based on rumours - meaning 12x 128KB, that is like quite a small amount of memory at fast bandwidth so would need to tile the image in 16x passes AFAIK - ruling out DLSS4. I'd expect the DLSS hardware to get used more for some FSR3 hybrid.

Cerny's comment about: "once you license tech you are always licensing it" doesn't sound like a trap Nintendo would get caught in for their own software, so I would expect Nintendo to do their own, or just use FSR3 on the hardware and have developers pay Nvidia DLSS cost per game if they use it.

 

[Gaiff]

CoPilot estimated on a Tegra 239 chipset @ 1Ghz clock it would be 3TFLOPs for the SMs, and then it said a x8 multiplier was typically on Nvidia for TOPs, so 24TOPs was the guesstimate.

I would think using DLSS3 in ultra fast mode it would be at least 6ms for 1080p to 4K. The biggest issue is that DLSS on Nvidia cards effectively runs fused - processes everything in one forward pass through the SMs - but with so few SMs - think CoPilot said 12 SMs for the chip based on rumours - meaning 12x 128KB, that is like quite a small amount of memory at fast bandwidth so would need to tile the image in 16x passes AFAIK - ruling out DLSS4. I'd expect the DLSS hardware to get used more for some FSR3 hybrid.

Cerny's comment about: "once you license tech you are always licensing it" doesn't sound like a trap Nintendo would get caught in for their own software, so I would expect Nintendo to do their own, or just use FSR3 on the hardware and have developers pay Nvidia DLSS cost per game if they use it.

There's a license fee to use DLSS for their games? They said way back in 2021 it was free.

 

[PaintTinJr]

There's a license fee to use DLSS for their games? They said way back in 2021 it was free.

I'm meaning if Nintendo have a deal with Nvidia where they don't pay the license for it in hardware to use it, but may want to offer to devs in a deal that passes the Nvidia cost onto devs that want to use DLSS in the Switch 2

 

[Lysandros]

I don't know if mentioned before but what if Nvidia's "10x more powerful GPU" claim is somehow related to (double rate) fp16 max ceiling? Does anyone know if the old's leak 3 TF docked figure given for T239 is full or half precision?

 

[PaintTinJr]

I don't know if mentioned before but what if Nvidia's "10x more powerful GPU" claim is somehow related to (double rate) fp16 max ceiling? Does anyone know if the old's leak 3 TF docked figure given for T239 is full or half precision?

Assuming the GPU is some derivative of a mobile rtx 3050

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050 Mobile Specs

NVIDIA GA107, 1343 MHz, 2048 Cores, 64 TMUs, 32 ROPs, 4096 MB GDDR6, 1500 MHz, 128 bit

www.techpowerup.com

I don't think it matters, and it will be for both 32fp and 16fp.

 

[Lysandros]

Assuming the GPU is some derivative of a mobile rtx 3050

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050 Mobile Specs

NVIDIA GA107, 1343 MHz, 2048 Cores, 64 TMUs, 32 ROPs, 4096 MB GDDR6, 1500 MHz, 128 bit

www.techpowerup.com

I don't think it matters, and it will be for both 32fp and 16fp.

I see, i didn't know the base architecture lacked RPM support. By the way i don't think Switch derivative will be nearly as potent as this chip. This thing is a little beast with full 2048 Cuda cores at 1340 MHz and 192 GB/s of bandwidth.

 

[Kataploom]

Kirby confirmed to be 1440p@60fps on Switch 2 in the Treehouse.

BTW, I think they're using raytraced reflections. It doesn't look at all like SSR, the reflection is an angle that isn't seen from the camera perspective, look at the blue crystal floor:



Also in Mario Party, some moments (timestamped):



Specially when King Bomb-omb or whatever he's called appears:


Look at Bowser reflection on the floor, if it was SSR wouldn't the angle be less precise and, specially, would the tail reflection not show up when the main model tail isn't being shown?


Damn...

 

[Windom Earle]

3050 is so bad lol. But I am sure Nintendo will make it sing anyway.

 

[Shaki12345]

Kirby confirmed to be 1440p@60fps on Switch 2 in the Treehouse.

BTW, I think they're using raytraced reflections. It doesn't look at all like SSR, the reflection is an angle that isn't seen from the camera perspective, look at the blue crystal floor:



Also in Mario Party, some moments (timestamped):



Specially when King Bomb-omb or whatever he's called appears:


Look at Bowser reflection on the floor, if it was SSR wouldn't the angle be less precise and, specially, would the tail reflection not show up when the main model tail isn't being shown?


Damn...

Mario Kart has some interesting reflections in the water level as well. It seems SSR and cubemaps, but your example looks like RT.

 

[Kataploom]

Mario Kart has some interesting reflections in the water level as well.

Oh gave a quick look at those and they actually look SSR to me, maybe combined with cubemaps, not sure, but it was clearly SSR for me at the moment, I'm alert because Nintendo tend to put some good graphical techniques in their games and not brag about it so one can only guess and stay alert, like Kirby games being some of the lookers on Switch 1 but they having simple camera (2D or topdown) make many people ignore them

 

[Kataploom]

Another example of Bowser reflection, this cannot be SSR:

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

You must be new here. I like fat chicks.

Being 10x more powerful isn't just about the GPU and even then, the GPU cannot be measured by just TFLOP rates.

Architecture wise, Ampere could be seen as 10x stronger than Maxwell considering the time gap between the two.

Yea it depends what they're measuring but Nvidia does tend to favor food marketing numbers. I'm pretty happy with the Switch 2 all things considered.

 

[Tchu-Espresso]

- NVIDIA AI-Powered DLSS and super 4K portable Gaming!!!!!! yeaahhhh, Kids today we all eat cake!!!!

- 30fps, Graphics PS4 gen and 90€ ......O M G kids .....

Yeah 30fps versions of games available on ps4 no thanks.

 

[SimTourist]

Kirby confirmed to be 1440p@60fps on Switch 2 in the Treehouse.

BTW, I think they're using raytraced reflections. It doesn't look at all like SSR, the reflection is an angle that isn't seen from the camera perspective, look at the blue crystal floor:



Also in Mario Party, some moments (timestamped):



Specially when King Bomb-omb or whatever he's called appears:


Look at Bowser reflection on the floor, if it was SSR wouldn't the angle be less precise and, specially, would the tail reflection not show up when the main model tail isn't being shown?


Damn...

That's just good old planar reflections or render to texture my man

 

[Kataploom]

That's just good old planar reflections my man

That's a hell of work that was necessary before SSR was a thing, nobody is gonna do that these days, no only was it very laborious to get right because of the very specific alignment, it is also limited to very specific surfaces because of that and it doesn't allow you to diffuse the reflection using material properties.

It just makes way more sense that it's RT reflection than it is anything so far.

 

[SimTourist]

That's a hell of work that was necessary before SSR was a thing, nobody is gonna do that these days, no only was it very laborious to get right because of the very specific alignment, it is also limited to very specific surfaces because of that and it doesn't allow you to diffuse the reflection using material properties.

It just makes way more sense that it's RT reflection than it is anything so far.

Nah, the main consideration for planar is needing to render everything twice, but these mario party games are simple as hell so rendering twice is easy. And it's only on the floor which is perfect match for a planar reflection, Nintendo has been doing it for ages in games like Wii Sports and such. I don't see any indication of RT here.

 

[Kataploom]

Nah, the main consideration for planar is needing to render everything twice, but these mario party games are simple as hell so rendering twice is easy. And it's only on the floor which is perfect match for a planar reflection, Nintendo has been doing it for ages in games like Wii Sports and such. I don't see any indication of RT here.

It's even easier to use RT considering it's just reflections, they might be way lower resolution if they're gonna be seen through a very diffuse material and that they disappear at short distance (Kirby case). Also, how do you explain the material properties implications in the reflection?

Switch 2 doesn't have to be a supercomputer to do that, it's also an Nvidia machine, subtile effects like those can be achieved with it's specs and not break the game performance.

 

[Blitzkrieg!]

It's even easier to use RT considering it's just reflections, they might be way lower resolution if they're gonna be seen through a very diffuse material and that they disappear at short distance (Kirby case). Also, how do you explain the material properties implications in the reflection?

Switch 2 doesn't have to be a supercomputer to do that, it's also an Nvidia machine, subtile effects like those can be achieved with it's specs and not break the game performance.

Stop engaging with these coping and seething retards.

There is very obvious ray tracing in the Tony Hawk trailer:

 

[Kataploom]

Stop engaging with these coping and seething retards.

There is very obvious ray tracing in the Tony Hawk trailer:

That one was captured on PC, it says so at the beginning of the video, check at the bottom... But I'm completely sure it can be used, how intensive is still yet to be seen, the way it's being used on the examples I posted is very light, which is probably the most realistic expectation

 

[SimTourist]

Stop engaging with these coping and seething retards.

There is very obvious ray tracing in the Tony Hawk trailer:

You can literally see SSR artifacts in this video.

 

[SimTourist]

It's even easier to use RT considering it's just reflections, they might be way lower resolution if they're gonna be seen through a very diffuse material and that they disappear at short distance (Kirby case). Also, how do you explain the material properties implications in the reflection?

Switch 2 doesn't have to be a supercomputer to do that, it's also an Nvidia machine, subtile effects like those can be achieved with it's specs and not break the game performance.

I just find it hard to believe that Nintendo would be using RT when their developers normally use tried and true techniques they've been using for decades. But then again in certain conditions like these floor reflections planar and RT reflections are pretty much indistinguishable, it's in more complex scenarios like curved surfaces that planar wouldn't work.

 

[Kataploom]

I just find it hard to believe that Nintendo would be using RT when their developers normally use tried and true techniques they've been using for decades. But then again in certain conditions like these floor reflections planar and RT reflections are pretty much indistinguishable, it's in more complex scenarios like curved surfaces that planar wouldn't work.

I don't think that's true at all since the Wii U and even more since the Switch, which first party games have many stuff not common or even present in 7th gen consoles, like volumetric lighting, PBR, real-time global illumination, etc.

I think what you said was valid before that because had pre-shader based GPUs until 2017 when they 3DS got dispatched.

 

[RodriGames40]

Someone got the treehouse for Fortnite? It looks like it has Nanite at least, no idea about Lumen.