Support NeoGAF

[shouamabane]

Great. I hate streaming video.

 

[mangochutney]

At CES 2015 the Netflix CPO stated that Sony had promised a hardware revision for the PS4 that would support 4K and HDR.

Two things, Jeff:

1. Why would Sony say this (if the current PS4 wasn't capable)
2. Why would they tell Netflix

Here is the original article that mentions it : http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/12/tv-hdr-4k-ces-2015-netflix_n_6455936.html

Netflix doesn't use Blu-Rays.

4K content streaming != 4k Blu-Ray support.

 

[Mihos]

But that's what I'm saying, sales of all disc formats have been falling for a long time and even BluRay itself is nothing like as successful as DVD was. Streaming has permanently altered the way people consume that sort of media.

The question I often hear about PS4/XBone in terms of media playback isn't:

"does it play BluRay discs?",

its almost always:

"How is Netflix on it?"

That's just anecdotal, but it indicates to me that the days of physical discs are coming to an end. Beyond 4K BD, does anyone see the big media groups trying for one more after this?

No, it is not anywhere near coming to an end. Anyone with a home theater will tell you exactly how shitty streaming HD content looks. It is OK for catching up on old episodes of X-Files, but if you want a true home theater, you need the media. The only thing that I would see changing is the disks will be made on demand and shipped directly from the factory at some point, instead of on an end cap at Walmart, or a service will let you store a copy of the media locally... but as far as going away completely, it won't happen... just like vinyl is still around for music.

 

[Burkatron81]

Hope your right Jeff, though I think anyone who follows the 4K development would kind of guessed this, it would have been a serious flaw for Sony not to put support in from the start. They just don’t talk about it yet because what’s the point? There is nothing other than TV’s they can sell it on at the moment.

I am currently up scaling my PS4 to 4K (works a treat, people underestimate the clarity it brings) and the mastered in 4K movies I do own (Elysium/Angels & Demons) look great with an expanded colour pallet. However I’m bursting for proper 4K content to come out on Blu-Ray, I don’t want to keep buying 1080p movies that I know I will eventually replace with 4K, just like I did with DVD to Blu-Ray.

 

[Mihos]

Netflix doesn't use Blu-Rays.

4K content streaming != 4k Blu-Ray support.

Netflix does still rent Blu-rays in addition to streaming. At least in the US they do.
http://dvd.netflix.com/BrowseGenres/Action_Adventure/296?lnktrk=GID_296

 

[MUnited83]

But that's what I'm saying, sales of all disc formats have been falling for a long time and even BluRay itself is nothing like as successful as DVD was. Streaming has permanently altered the way people consume that sort of media.

The question I often hear about PS4/XBone in terms of media playback isn't:

"does it play BluRay discs?",

its almost always:

"How is Netflix on it?"

That's just anecdotal, but it indicates to me that the days of physical discs are coming to an end. Beyond 4K BD, does anyone see the big media groups trying for one more after this?

Physical discs will continue to exist for quite a bit of time, don't worry about that.

 

[baconcow]

So, the PS4 will only support 4K Blu-ray if Sony decides that they want to allow it, not because they will? Might want to change the title to "PS4 is capable of supporting 4K Blu-ray's". Otherwise, this topic is greatly misleading.

 

[xion4360]

"The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray" is a confirmation of something that sony did not provide.. you may be right but still, the thread title is misleading.

 

[levious]

When's that huge ps3 browser update coming?

 

[professor denim]

I would trade 4k playback for 1080p multi-region playback...

 

[Shin-Ra]

That's funny, I just spent my lunch hour lurking around at our nearby Saturn shop where I had a closer look at all those 4k TVs.

I really asked myself what's the actual benefit for that extra 4k money (compared to FullHD), since there is literaly no native 4k material available in Germany. No Blu-Rays, no PS4 games, no Sky 4k channel.

4k on PS4 would be a good start.

SkyQ should be launching soon in the UK and apparently Sky's trying to share the same box technology between regions.

 

[Ombala]

Nice misleading thread title should have guessed it was you Jeff.
A thread title like that would be for when Sony confirmes that its coming which they haven't.
This is the same thing you posted a week ago, didn't you get enough attention then?

 

[RealityCheque]

Physical discs will continue to exist for quite a bit of time, don't worry about that.

I'm not saying they wont exist. Hell I'm pretty sure you can still buy vhs players, I'm just suggesting that they are rapidly becoming a niche market.

4K support is fine and all, im not oblivious to the eye candy, but I'd be amazed if this isn't the last gen of mainstream disc formats.

 

[Harp]

But what about 4k Ultra HD disk? They just finished the standard for UHD. What would a sony patent from before that even matter?

 

[DrunkandDrunker]

This about the need for the patent. If the case is a 4K blu-ray disk's third layer can't be read by a standard blu-ray drive then there is no need for the patent. This is the logic I understood for the patent.

A blu-ray drive can be firmware updated with the Panasonic tweak which allows a layer to go from 25 to 33 GB and the third layer just requires again software on modern drives. The information in each successive layer is always in the stream, what is required is focus of the laser for the lower layer and a strong enough laser to have the reflected signal detectable (phase changed 1/2 wavelength, which with pits when added to the original lasers phase cancels out to give a 0).

Can't follow the technical side of your point but my reading of the said patent is as follows.

Problem the patent is trying to solve:

"..a new version will create problems with disc drive devices that are already commercially available (hereinafter called the Ver. 1.0 drives)... in a case where recording and playback of a Ver. 2.0 disc are done on a Ver. 1.0 drive, there is concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency. "

Which I take it to mean:

• ver 1.0 drives might be able to read/write on ver 2.0 discs, but with significant problems
• thus the need to make ver 2.0 discs completely incompatible with ver 1.0 drives

"..if the second version recording medium is loaded into the incompatible playback device, it can be put into a state in which it cannot be accessed (recording and playback are impossible).
...to make only the second version recording medium unusable in the known recording device and the known playback device, making it possible to avoid the occurrence of an unstable operating state. "

So the logic of the patent seems to me as, make ver 2.0 discs completely unreadable/unwritable on ver 1.0 drives to avoid incompatibility issues altogether.

 

[jett]

You're feeling strangely confident despite not really having much confirmation or information about it. How is the PS4 going to read triple-layer 4KBD discs, exactly.

 

[UpUpDownDown]

Hope your right Jeff, though I think anyone who follows the 4K development would kind of guessed this, it would have been a serious flaw for Sony not to put support in from the start. They just don’t talk about it yet because what’s the point? There is nothing other than TV’s they can sell it on at the moment.

I am currently up scaling my PS4 to 4K (works a treat, people underestimate the clarity it brings) and the mastered in 4K movies I do own (Elysium/Angels & Demons) look great with an expanded colour pallet. However I’m bursting for proper 4K content to come out on Blu-Ray, I don’t want to keep buying 1080p movies that I know I will eventually replace with 4K, just like I did with DVD to Blu-Ray.

Honestly I don't know when that content is coming. Every film I've worked on in the last few years was delivered to the clients in HD. Even the original full aperture scans were only 2048x1556.

Content wise, 4k TVs are a bigger bust then 3d in my opinion (we still do native 3d films in house).

 

[Frodo]

I'm more interested in 4k streaming, tbh.

Does this thread confirms 4k streaming as well?

 

[Ombala]

I'm more interested in 4k streaming, tbh.

Does this thread confirms 4k streaming as well?

No it dosent comfirm anything.

 

[hesido]

If you understand what is required for DRM and 4K blu-ray it's a 100% confirmation.

1) It's a custom chip not a HDMI 1.4 chip. Everyone who says it's a HDMI 1.4 chip has no confirmation of that as it's not listed in the Panasonic web site. Why Custom? combine with the exposed traces and it's OBVIOUS! It's at the same time an elegant solution and is more secure.

I respect your technical knowledge and the ability to read technical papers and follow industry news. But just seeing a custom chip, or whether it makes business sense is not solid confirmation about what features it has, though. Otherwise we are dangerously walking on the heavy speculation area not unlike some "outlets" that we all love to make fun of.

Sony does not gain by withholding at least the information that it can update the HDMI spec to 2.0, it's a positive thing. So it makes more sense to wait for them to announce it IMHO.

Promising a 4k Bluray reading capability is something else, but they could at least confirm PS4 can do HDMI 2.0. However, if I were Sony, and it was a sure thing that existing PS4 WILL be able to read 4K blurays, I wouldn't be hesitant to share that information with the public, who may be waiting on 4K bluray players and not buying those PS4s, or who may be waiting for a PS4 hardware revision that is able to read 4K BluRays.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I want to believe this, but I'm not convinced. Having read the OP in detail I find a few points of evidence suspect.

The assumptions about the hardware chip don't convince me. Just because the HDMI chip is pass-through doesn't mean it's as easy as simply updating the firmware. I think it might be used to daisy chain another DRM chip onto the motherboard in a new revision.

The assumptions about the blu-ray disc patent don't convince me. Patents are filed the minute anyone has a random idea. For large companies, patents mean practically nothing - they're stocked up like nuclear warheads, used against rivals in defensive ways. It doesn't mean execution will be delivered or that it's even useful to any given application. It's just an idea some punk had in R&D.

I find the DRM talk convincing but also heavily utopian.

These threads are interesting to read. I follow them without a lot of difficulty, but I rarely find them convincing. They're made with a lot of assumptions - the sort of assumptions that find their way into industry powerpoints that manifest into vaporware once the actual product is executed.

 

[Projectjustice]

I enter this thread for confirmation. Im leaving this thread without confirmation.

 

[family_guy]

Meh. Doesn't matter right now. I feel like the HDCP 2.2 thing might get revised or the restriction lifted. They've been selling 4k tvs for at least two years and many don't even support HDCP 2.2. This is also true of AV receivers and graphics cards. If you want to upgrade you're basically having to replace all of your equipment and I don't think content producers will be able to make a dent with the majority of consumers until probably 2018.

 

[Clockwork]

There is so much miss-information and it's not self correcting...

Kind of like these jeff_rigby speculation threads, eh?

 

[Syriel]

Netflix doesn't use Blu-Rays.

4K content streaming != 4k Blu-Ray support.

The 4K output requirements are still the same.

This is why you don't see 4K streaming support on devices that aren't TVs. The content providers are currently requiring HDCP 2.2 for any 4K content.

On a TV with built-in software, that's not an issue. On an external box (game console, streaming box, etc.) you would need HDCP 2.2 support on both sides for it to happen. The same is true of 4K Blu-ray.

Now, content providers can relax the restrictions if they so choose, but the practical matter is that:

1) HDCP earlier than 2.2 is horribly broken and can be circumvented with ease.
2) No one is going to buy a 4K Blu-ray player or streaming box that only plays content from a certain studio in 4K, with everything else down sampling to 1080p.

Meh. Doesn't matter right now. I feel like the HDCP 2.2 thing might get revised or the restriction lifted. They've been selling 4k tvs for at least two years and many don't even support HDCP 2.2. This is also true of AV receivers and graphics cards. If you want to upgrade you're basically having to replace all of your equipment and I don't think content producers will be able to make a dent with the majority of consumers until probably 2018.

CE manufacturers would love this.

But the final say is the content providers and they are wholly against it for fear of mass piracy.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Can't follow the technical side of your point but my reading of the said patent is as follows.

Problem the patent is trying to solve:


Which I take it to mean:

• ver 1.0 drives might be able to read/write on ver 2.0 discs, but with significant problems
• thus the need to make ver 2.0 discs completely incompatible with ver 1.0 drives

So the logic of the patent seems to me as, make ver 2.0 discs completely unreadable/unwritable on ver 1.0 drives to avoid incompatibility issues altogether.

Again, 4K blu-ray disks are standard blu-ray with a Panasonic tweak and three layers.

EDIT: You are correct on the reason for the patent.....a old pre 2010 blu-ray drive can read a 3 layer disk with the Panasonic tweak but some drives may not do this reliably. I did some reading and 2010 was when the new specs came out for BDXL. The patent was making an artificial break between pre 2010 drives and newer drives after 2010 that would support the new BD-R whitepaper which required higher specs for newer drives. I've edited the OP.


If you read the Playready 3 and Playready ND papers (just google search them) you will find reference to Game Consoles and 4K streaming over the home network.

 

[Chittagong]

I love Jeff Rigby threads, even if I rarely understand them.

What happened wth that DLNA stuff btw?

 

[IvorB]

Honestly I don't know when that content is coming. Every film I've worked on in the last few years was delivered to the clients in HD. Even the original full aperture scans were only 2048x1556.

Content wise, 4k TVs are a bigger bust then 3d in my opinion (we still do native 3d films in house).

Aren't a lot of digitally shot movies shot at 4K? Also aren't movies shot on film higher resolution than 4K anyway due to the crazy high resolution of film?

 

[jmdajr]

I thought this was gonna be an OfficialPressRelease

 

[ZOONAMI]

I'm pretty sure Sony would rather do a hardware revision instead of a firmware update just to get all the videophiles to double dip on a ps4. I also think despite the hdmi chip there is some sort of hardware limitation.

And given what netflix has said there is more confirmation of a hardware revision than any "confirmation" found by OP.

 

[Theonik]

Oh it's a Jeff_rigby thread. Got excited for a moment there.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Aren't a lot of digitally shot movies shot at 4K? Also aren't movies shot on film higher resolution than 4K anyway due to the crazy high resolution of film?

The issue isn't really how they were shot but how they were finished. If you shoot at, say, 5K (or, as rare as it is anymore, on film) but do all your post-production work in 2K, then 2K is as good as it gets (without the enormous cost of essentially reconstructing the entire movie). Pre-DI-era catalog titles do have it better, but 2K is still the most common workflow there when remastering.

Shockingly few movies these days are finished in 4K, and a lot of what you'll see on UHD BD will have to be upscaled. Even massively budgeted movies like The Hobbit series still have 2K DIs.

 

[IvorB]

The issue isn't really how they were shot but how they were finished. If you shoot at, say, 5K (or, as rare as it is anymore, on film) but do all your post-production work in 2K, then 2K is as good as it gets (without the enormous cost of essentially reconstructing the entire movie).

Shockingly few movies these days are finished in 4K, and a lot of what you'll see on UHD BD will have to be upscaled. Even massively budgeted movies like The Hobbit series still have 2K DIs.

Oh really? That blows. Seems really shortsighted. But there are quite a few movies out for 4K already, are these just upscales? When we transitioned to blu-ray they re-released a lot of old movies at the new resolution, did these old movies not face the same issue? I guess I'm just struggling to believe that the movie industry is going to have hardly anything to show or sell at native 4K...

 

[Opus Angelorum]

The 4K output requirements are still the same.

Yup.

 

[rokkerkory]

By the time 4k BD movies are widely available, we'll be onto the PS5/X2

 

[Adam Tyner]

But there are quite a few movies out for 4K already, are these just upscales?

It's a mix. Life of Pi, for instance, comes with a bunch of 4K TVs, but the bulk of the movie was shot natively at 2.8K, and it has a 2K digital intermediate. That's not to say that the 4K presentation won't look better -- there's more to Ultra HD than just resolution -- but no, it's not really 4K.

When we transitioned to blu-ray they re-released a lot of old movies at the new resolution, did these old movies not face the same issue?

It was sort of the opposite problem. HD was an inevitability everyone was prepared for well in advance, but the biggest hiccup is that a lot of HD masters were created in the early part of the DVD era and just don't hold up.

"Old movies" are fine, although studios will have to go to the time and expensive of rescanning/remastering them at 4K. The issue is really new/newer movies with a digital post-production pipeline, which is essentially everything over the past 10-15 years. Very few movies at any budget have their visual effects rendered above 2K, and 2K digital intermediates are still more common than anything else. It doesn't matter if you're talking about an extremely low-budget independent film or the most extravagantly budgeted summer blockbuster; 2K is the standard.

I guess I'm just struggling to believe that the movie industry is going to have hardly anything to show or sell at native 4K...

I agree, but that is unfortunately the case.

I suppose strategic timing would be the only real explanation. But I'm not sure that makes sense.

Makes sense to me. We know very, very little about UHD BD. We have zero title announcements, no firm release date, and not even a publicly-seen prototype shown playing actual material (for something supposedly about to hit stores in a few months!). I have no idea if existing PS4 models will be updated to play UHD BD titles, but even if that is on the horizon, an announcement predating...well, nearly every possible announcement of UHD BD seems very premature.

 

[Memorabilia]

So if this is true, why on earth would Sony not advertise this as one of the PS4s capabilities?

A software update to make this possible seems almost too good to be true. This feels like it would take a hardware revision. So maybe when the PS4 Slim comes out it will display 4k. I'd love to believe all existing PS4s will do this too, but why hold this back?

I suppose strategic timing would be the only real explanation. But I'm not sure that makes sense.

 

[yellow submarine]

So much bullshit on the internet from everyone involved here. The people who know are bound by NDAs, that's all everyone on GAF needs to know. Good god, it's like no one learned anything from the Xbone "expose" posts that were full of made-up plausible-but-not-true horseshit from non-industry insiders.

 

[DrunkandDrunker]

So a 4K blu-ray disk movie is unreadable on a standard blu-ray player. Where is the need for the patent?

Lets stick to the patent, because the other details are out of my league.

Basically, because the Blu-ray Disc format is the same, recording and playing back a Ver. 2.0 disc on a Ver. 1.0 drive would not be absolutely impossible. However, if the Ver. 2.0 disc is achieved by using higher density and more layers, it can be assumed that the various types of specifications with which the Ver. 1.0 drive is provided would not the adequate.

Therefore, in a case where recording and playback of a Ver. 2.0 disc are done on a Ver. 1.0 drive, there is concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency.

So are the ver 2.0 disks higher density and more layers?
In order to avoid market confusion regarding compatibility of ver 2.0 disks with ver 1.0 drives, the patent might be useful.
I'm sure a blank ver 2.0 disks if used in ver 1.0 drives wouldn't be using HEVC to record/encode the video, so why you bring up HEVC is lost on me. Besides, the patent isn't limited to video recordings. What ever the data, if you get read/write errors at a "greater frequency", I'd think you'd agree that it's a compatibility concern.

For me, "Can support" and "concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency" don't compute. You need to explain why it does.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

First JR post I actually understood. Excellent!

Thanks Jeff. I'm glad Sony was thinking forward a bit with the design.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I love Jeff Rigby threads, even if I rarely understand them.

What happened wth that DLNA stuff btw?

Sony has not mentioned one word about Vidipath or Sony Passage being used for a Downloadable Security scheme so that Cable cards are not needed and a USB tuner connected to a PS4 as all that would be needed to receive encrypted Premium Cable TV. But it's in PDFs Sony sent to the FCC DSTAC.

Microsoft has not mentioned Playready ND being used with Game Consoles to stream 4K content over the home network but it's in Playready ND whitepapers.

With Vidipath will come a HTML5 update.

For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB.

Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS3, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 or PS3 & PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.

From Microsoft's Playready 3 site: Supporting In-Home Content Distribution with PlayReady for Network Devices page 14

"The game console, acting as a PlayReady ND transmitter, has obtained a license from the service and it sends media files to valid PlayReady ND receivers that are part of the same in-home network. It also uses PlayReady technologies to build and issue local licenses to authorized receiving devices. Note that this model can also be applied to both live streams, video-on-demand and DVR content."

This confirms the XB1 and PS4 will be streaming 4K media in the home. Vidipath DTCP-IP using WMDRM10 can stream 1080i and lower resolutions but 4K requires Playready 3 and Playready nd.

There is a ton of such clues over the last 3 years.

 

[ultrazilla]

I know I'm not crazy. When the PS4 was in its late stage of development, there were mentions that it would have 4k support. I'm confident it will via a firmware update ala 3D.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

I wonder how many years it will be before 4k actually hits mainstream. Like, with TV cable boxes actually outputting the high resolution/Blu Rays having "Watch in 4k" on the box.

You can get the BT UHD box now in the UK. The dedicated UHD channel starts next week.

link

So, the answer your question is '0 years'.

 

[jeff_rigby]

You're feeling strangely confident despite not really having much confirmation or information about it. How is the PS4 going to read triple-layer 4KBD discs, exactly.

I've been informed that PC's will not require new Blu-ray drives to playback 4k media/bluray. PC's will only need software that supports 4K (PowerDVD 14 already does this). So we have it then....

Note that the post is from the Moderator of the Blu-ray Forum He fails to post the DRM requirements and for Windows 10 = Playready 3, HDMI 2.0 port with HDCP 2.2 and HEVC codec. All these are supported in the PS4 as it has a ARM TEE SoC as Southbridge which is a hardware requirement for Playready 3.

All DRM media enters the PS4 southbridge encrypted and exits encrypted.

Blu-ray to the Southbridge is encrypted
Miracast to the Southbridge is encrypted
DRM media on external drives or in the PS4 is encrypted and passes through Southbridge
Streaming DRM media from the internet is encrypted and passes through the Southbridge
DLNA media which may be DRM encrypted passes through the Southbridge

Where it is unencrypted and played (put in a form for viewing) then encrypted for the HDMI port. The most secure place for this to happen is ALL in Southbridge managed with a ARM trustzone processor.

 

[levious]

I know I'm not crazy. When the PS4 was in its late stage of development, there were mentions that it would have 4k support. I'm confident it will via a firmware update ala 3D.

But I don't think that necessarily implies ultra blu ray playback.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Note that the post is from the Moderator of the Blu-ray Forum

I'm not doubting what prerich is saying there at all, but blu-ray.com is an enthusiast site, and moderators there do not speak for the BDA.

 

[adamantypants]

This is not confirmation. But at the same time I fully believe it. Sony (and MS for this matter) would have been stupid to not have the foresight about 4K adoption. I'm sure they overpowered their HDMI chips in anticipation of the 1.4/2.0 spec.

 

[LowSignal]

IF this was true wouldn't Sony be singing this from the mountain tops as a feature? It would be cool if it is true, but I don't know if I believe this.

 

[Nerix]

Thx Jeff for going into detail. Enjoying reading your threads, even if I don't understand everything.

Let's see what Sony will announce.

 

[Afrikan]

Did the PS3 Slim ever receive any functionality upgrades for HDMI? Because it had a similar (exposed) custom chip for HDMI: http://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/MN8647091

Was there even anything they could have updated? If not, why would they choose a chip like this in the PS3?

I don't know if this relates...but the PS3 Slim decoded HD Audio..where as the previous PS3s supported HD Audio, but needed your sound system to decode it. (HD Audio Surround Sound)

basically the PS3 slim saved you alot of money when getting a sound system, if you wanted HD Audio Surround Sound.

If my cousin's Launch PS3 wasn't still kicking...we would have been enjoying lossless surround sound all these years in his living room...but he doesn't want to get a new receiver or a new PS3 Slim/PS4 (which I understand since he isn't a gamer)