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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Chichikov said:
Sales tax is a bad idea.
It's regressive by nature (it can be sort of offseted to a certain degree) create more paperwork and bureaucracy, it hassles to small businesses and is really hard to enforce, which creates a system that reward fraud, which is never a good idea.

I can think of no economic reason to do it (but many political ones).

p.s.
I feel like I made this post before...
Click to expand...

I feel like we talk about a sales tax every few months, so odds are yes you made that post before.

RDreamer said:
My state representative opened his big stupid mouth yet again.
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Wow, that's 30 pounds of stupid in a 2 pound bag.
 
P

Piecake

Member
Rocket Scientist said:
You guys all agree that sales tax is not a good idea and that taxes should be done at a level where you can judge someone's income level? Or is a sales tax necessary even with its flaw of not being progressives?
Click to expand...

The X Tax always seemed like an interesting idea. Its like a Vat, but progressive. Apparently it taxes investment income as well, though not really sure how (probably because a VAT tax slightly confuses me)
 
A

apana

Member
I like Biden but I'd rather go with someone new if Hillary doesn't run. If Hillary runs then it is no contest, she wins automatically. I think she wins with every demographic in the Democratic party in the primary and wins all of the Obama states plus a few red states in the general. Game over!
 
R

RDreamer

Member
B-Dubs said:
Wow, that's 30 pounds of stupid in a 2 pound bag.
Click to expand...

You've just described Glenn Grothman to a T. This is the same guy that put in legislation to make single parenthood child abuse. He said money means more to men than women. He said some crap about kwanzaa that I posted a few weeks ago. Every time he opens his mouth he promptly puts his foot in it, and even that foot doesn't block the shit that comes out.
 
T

Tim-E

Member
RDreamer said:
You've just described Glenn Grothman to a T. This is the same guy that put in legislation to make single parenthood child abuse. He said money means more to men than women. He said some crap about kwanzaa that I posted a few weeks ago. Every time he opens his mouth he promptly puts his foot in it, and even that foot doesn't block the shit that comes out.
Click to expand...

What kind of crazies live in your district?
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Piecake said:
The X Tax always seemed like an interesting idea. Its like a Vat, but progressive. Apparently it taxes investment income as well, though not really sure how (probably because a VAT tax slightly confuses me)
Click to expand...
It's taking a terrible idea and trying to make it less horrible in a convoluted hard to explain way.
I think in a democracy, we should strive as much as possible for solutions that the electorate can understand, you run into trouble otherwise, and specifically, taxes like that allows the government to change taxation in ways that are not immediately obvious to most of the citizens; some would argue they were designed for that end specifically, and by some, I mean I.

And seriously, outside my conspiracy theories, what advantage does it have over the income tax outside warding the Norquist?
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Sales taxes are more efficient in that they distort they market the least. At least at the lower levels of taxation. The problem is it is regressive.

Of course I wouldn't tax food. It would be much better if states had a preset rebate every year for sales taxes for other things for lower and middle income earners.
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Black Mamba said:
Sales taxes are more efficient in that they distort they market the least. At least at the lower levels of taxation. The problem is it is regressive.
Click to expand...
What does that mean?
What is distorting the market and why should we strive to have the least of it?
What does it mean for a tax to be a efficient?
Why sales tax are more efficient?
More efficient than what?
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Tim-E said:
What kind of crazies live in your district?
Click to expand...

The worst kind, apparently.

The sad thing is that this isn't just some dude who wins because... well, he's the best to vote for. People here apparently love the fucker. I see signs in their yards and everything. Apparently, despite being unmarried and childless, is some staunch defender of "family values."

Long story short, I don't fucking have a clue why this douche wins anything. He had a rather sweet lady run against him last election and he trounced her beyond belief. I guess it helps that the area he covers is the most conservative in the state, I believe.
 
W

watershed

Banned
RDreamer said:
You've just described Glenn Grothman to a T. This is the same guy that put in legislation to make single parenthood child abuse. He said money means more to men than women. He said some crap about kwanzaa that I posted a few weeks ago. Every time he opens his mouth he promptly puts his foot in it, and even that foot doesn't block the shit that comes out.
Click to expand...

And yet gets re-elected over and over again? What are your neighbors like? Maybe he's just preaching to the choir.
 
P

Piecake

Member
Chichikov said:
It's taking a terrible idea and trying to make it less horrible in a convoluted hard to explain way.
I think in a democracy, we should strive as much as possible for solutions that the electorate can understand, you run into trouble otherwise, and specifically, taxes like that allows the government to change taxation in ways that are not immediately obvious to most of the citizens; some would argue they were designed for that end specifically, and by some, I mean I.

And seriously, outside my conspiracy theories, what advantage does it have over the income tax outside warding the Norquist?
Click to expand...

It really doesnt seem that complicated. I could be wrong, but it sounds like basically eliminating the income tax and just paying all of our taxes by way of a progressive payroll tax. Now, if that doesnt include capital gains and dividends, that should be included, but the benefits seem to be that you wouldnt have to file taxes if you dont have investment income and your tax rate and taxes paid can be explained on your payroll check

Again, I dont know if this is actually the case, but ive read that 'most' economists agree that a consumption tax is better for growth. Problem with it is that is regressive. Well, if this tax fixes that and doesnt hurt the poor and middle class more than the income tax we have now, it sounds like a good idea to me

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/10/16/why-tax-reform-could-help-growth/

And the electorate seeing how much tax the govt takes from their wallet every time they see a payroll check seems more clear than the income tax we have now. Hell, it seems like most people dont even understand how a marginal tax rates work, not to mention credits, deductions, etc etc
 
B

Bishman

Member
If Hillary runs, every Democrat needs to get in line and wait 'till 2024. Hillary will get the democrats back into power in 2016.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
watershed said:
And yet gets re-elected over and over again? What are your neighbors like? Maybe he's just preaching to the choir.
Click to expand...

He is.

I'm pretty sure people like my dad love him. The town I'm in now is pretty conservative, too, and I see signs for him all around. They're all nutters. Most of the representatives from this area are nutters.

The Representative in the House for a while here was Sensenbrenner, the guy that introduced the Patriot Act (didn't write it, mind you), and walked out in response to Democratic members raising issues regarding human rights violations at the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp and the ongoing Iraq war. He voted against a bill to provide $50 billion in emergency aid to victims of Hurricane Katrina. He also believes in criminal prosecution of broadcasters and cable operators who violate decency standards as opposed to the current FCC regulatory methods. He's also the guy that referred to Michelle Obama as “big butt.”

They just redrew the maps prior to the last election, though, and now this area has Tom Petri as representative. That surprised me, because all the maps on the internet at the time showed the old districts, so I thought I was voting against Sensenbrenner at the time. Got in there and it was Petri. Not that it matters...

You guys should have read some of the stories of the lady that ran against Grothman when she went door to door. She'd get cussed at up and down, and yelled at over and over and had doors slammed on her, etc. merely for being a democrat.

jamesinclair said:
Dammit Obama
Click to expand...

The correct verbiage is "Thanks Obama"


Black Mamba said:
On my phone and lakers just started up but ill link this. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=13495
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Spoiler alert: they lose
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Here are two of the stories from the lady that ran against Grothman and her going door to door around here:

Tonight on the doors I met a man who immediately started blasting liberals and Democrats. He made several references to fecal matter and maggots, and talked about fairly violent outcomes for members of these groups. He ended his rant by saying he was very happy with my opponent because they shared the same values. When he stopped, I said, “What I heard from you was a lot of hate and anger. Are those the values you are referring to?” He looked stunned, but then replied “Well, it’s just so hard to be a gentleman with you because I think about all of the bad things liberals have done and it makes me so mad.” I responded by saying “Yeah, the things that have been said and done to me make it hard to be a lady sometimes, too, and yet here I am, choosing to behave like one.” He was silent for a few moments and then said “Well, thank you for stopping by. But I just don’t like your kind.” I looked him in the eye and said, “ I hope you have a good rest of your day and I hope you can get past the hate someday because holding onto it can really drag a person down.” Luckily, I had quite a few blocks to walk to get to my next door so I had some time to process what had just happened. At first, I felt angry, and I wanted to lash back. But then I realized I had been given a gift at that door – the gift of a glimpse at what would happen if I let that anger take over. I don’t ever want to be consumed by that much hate and the only person who can stop that from happening is me. And so I made the choice to move on to the next door, without carrying his hate and his anger and I felt a freedom that I hadn’t felt before knocking on his door.
Click to expand...

Last night on the doors I met a man who asked me part way through our conversation “Democrat or Republican?” I stated I was a Democrat running against Glenn Grothman and he replied, “Oh, I will never vote for a Democrat. I hate Democrats.” I asked him why he hated Democrats and he spent the next 5 minutes telling me about how the Democrats try to intimidate Republicans and call them all kinds of nasty names. He talked about unions trying to scare people and teachers trying to fleece the taxpayers. Eventually, he paused and I said, “I understand your concerns. I’ve had a lot of hateful things said and done to me in the last year and a half and I know how much that hurts.” He looked at me in surprise and said, “That doesn’t happen to Democrats. It only happens to Republicans.” At first I tried to tell him about some of my personal experiences, but he just shook his head and said he didn’t believe Republicans would do those things. Finally, I said “Sir, when I asked you why you hated Democrats, I stood here and listened while you called union members thugs, teachers leeches, and Democrats less than human. I belong to every single one of those groups and I can’t think of more personal, or hateful names to be called, especially to my face. So not only has this happened to me in the past, but it happened right here on your stoop.” There was an awkward silence and then he said “But I would never call you those things”. I waited patiently while he contemplated the dilemma at hand. Finally, he asked me to share more about my experiences in the last year and a half and he listened intently as I described some of my ordeals. He said he had no idea these kinds of things had been happening and agreed that BOTH sides needed to return to civil discourse and debate. I doubt that he will vote for me, but I do think our conversation will affect whether he continues to use generalizations, or begins to talk about specific policies, statements, and incidences that he is concerned about. Generalizations eliminate our chances of finding common ground and keeps us from addressing our specific concerns and grievances. It was an important lesson to be reminded of on the doors.
Click to expand...
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Also, missed this fun Grothman story

Republican Glenn Grothman (R-West Bend) handily defeated his Democratic opponent, Tanya Lohr, in last week’s election, but apparently it wasn’t easy. Grothman took to the airwaves Thursday morning to talk about “the special interests” he was up against, including, um, the New World Order. Grothman also claimed that President Obama and Tammy Baldwin probably won their elections due to fraud, and that eventually he’s “going to have to lay down the gauntlet” on the people who enforce Obamacare. Seriously.

When speaking with Sly this morning, State Senator Grothman seemed truly baffled by the $600 donation he said Tanya Lohr received from “the New World Order” aka “the Council on Foreign Relations,” so much so that he couldn’t really be certain from whence the donation came. The donation was sent from a woman named “Anne” who lives in Maryland, and according to Grothman, she has donated before.

When radio show host Sly Sylvestor pressed Grothman to explain why the Council on Foreign Relations might be out to get him and asked if there “was a target on his back,” Grothman admitted it was a real head-scratcher. He plans to look into it further, he said.

Grothman also plans to “talk to some more people” about the probability that President Obama won re-election due to fraud, explaining that “some people are of the opinion that Democrats cheat.”

One thing Grothman did seem certain about was that the U.S. Supreme Court does not enforce the Constitution and that it hasn’t for many years, which is why America’s going downhill, and why state senators like himself will “eventually have to lay down the gauntlet” on those who enforce Obamacare (aka the feds).
Click to expand...
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Chichikov said:
I'd rather be a Lakers fan right now than wade through that. okay, not really, but it's pretty damn close. okay, it's not even close, but still, I'm not reading it.
If you still feel like arguing the point after Paul Millsap done mauling you guys, we can pick it up.
Click to expand...
Haha fair enough.

I'm not a big fan sales taxes because of the regressivity. Taxes change the price and quantity supplied of the market unless the demand or supply is perfectly inelastic. How much depends on many factors including the type of tax. There is also waste, compliance costs and stuff. Sales taxes have less of these.

Now you have to weight the be write of this versus negatives like regressivity. I'm not arguing we should strive so only distort the market as little as possible. But less dostortion generally means a better allocation of resources.

That study actually quantified a few taxes with sales tax being best.

You wanted to know what the benefit if a sales tax is and that's what it is. Doesn't mean it outweighs all the cons all the time though.
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Black Mamba said:
Haha fair enough.

I'm not a big fan sales taxes because of the regressivity. Taxes change the price and quantity supplied of the market unless the demand or supply is perfectly inelastic. How much depends on many factors including the type of tax. There is also waste, compliance costs and stuff. Sales taxes have less of these.

Now you have to weight the be write of this versus negatives like regressivity. I'm not arguing we should strive so only distort the market as little as possible. But less dostortion generally means a better allocation of resources.

That study actually quantified a few taxes with sales tax being best.

You wanted to know what the benefit if a sales tax is and that's what it is. Doesn't mean it outweighs all the cons all the time though.
Click to expand...
I still don't understand what it mean to "distort the market" in this context.
 
B

Byakuya769

Member
zero shift said:
Why do people want Hilary to run? Isn't she even more right wing than Obama?
Click to expand...

In 08 she was, but continual wins could help drive things back in a favorable position.

Any discussion on the DC Cir. invalidating Obama's recess appointments to the Labor Board?

I'm pretty pissed.
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Black Mamba said:
Prices and quantity supplied are not why they would be without intervention via taxes. There's also a dead weight loss (google it)
Click to expand...
Can I also google the first sentence in your post?
Not why the what without the who now?
Seriously, you're not making much sense, I fear your prolonged exposure to Mike D'Antoni had rotten your mind.
 
T

Tim-E

Member
zero shift said:
Why do people want Hilary to run? Isn't she even more right wing than Obama?
Click to expand...

Besides a few issues they were ridiculously similar during the primaries. She is incredibly popular and I think she would coast through a general election against the proposed Republican candidates if Obama makes it through his second term without scandal and with a few more legislative accomplishments.
 
B

Byakuya769

Member
Oblivion said:
Scott Lemiux from LGM has a pretty good post on it:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com...ule-nlrb-recess-appointments-unconstitutional
Click to expand...

What's the worst part of this decision (granted I haven't read the opinion, so I may be getting wrong information), is that they ruled on a question that wasn't appropriately before the court. They deemed now that recess appointments cannot even be done unless the vacancy OCCURRED DURING A RECESS!!!!! FLIP A CAR OVER AND HULK OUT! These fucking hacks.

(edit) - ok, two of the three justices in the majority stated in their concurrences that you could only do a recess appointment for vacancies that open DURING a traditional recess. So the majority didn't strike that down completely... yet.

Your move, Roberts.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Avon Barksdale said:
Saxby Chambliss is retiring.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1/25/report-saxby-chambliss-retiring-in-2014/
Click to expand...

We'll get someone even crazier though GA isnt a horrible shot at a dem. pick up if they go really crazy.


Also it looks like scott brown had a good friday night
BBhB_-TCMAAexCJ.png
Click to expand...
 
B

bomma_man

Member
Thank you guys for this thread and the blog, I'm at the point where I know more about American politics than Australian. As far as I know there's no New Yorker or DHP equivelant here. You guys complain about Murdoch but he owns nine of the twelve newspapers here, my state is only Murdoch.

I get a horrible feelin that we're moving towards your Republican Party (see Tony Abbott) so I think we have some kind of connection.

I've love to write an article about gun control compared to you - because our gun control only came in in 1996 - if I could be bothered.

* it's Australia Day (which is bullshit in itself), so I'm quite drunk.
 
M

makingmusic476

Member
Black Mamba said:
Haha fair enough.

I'm not a big fan sales taxes because of the regressivity. Taxes change the price and quantity supplied of the market unless the demand or supply is perfectly inelastic. How much depends on many factors including the type of tax. There is also waste, compliance costs and stuff. Sales taxes have less of these.

Now you have to weight the be write of this versus negatives like regressivity. I'm not arguing we should strive so only distort the market as little as possible. But less dostortion generally means a better allocation of resources.

That study actually quantified a few taxes with sales tax being best.

You wanted to know what the benefit if a sales tax is and that's what it is. Doesn't mean it outweighs all the cons all the time though.
Click to expand...

One thing that I realized in thinking about Jindal's proposal to replace our corporate taxes with a sales tax is that a sales tax would essentially become a tax on a business' expenses, as opposed to a tax on a business' profits like a corporate tax.

This means it heavily effects all businesses regardless of whether they're in the red or black, and it hurts businesses with low or negative profit margins FAR MORE than businesses with high profit margins.

The other day I mentioned how my boss is now selling bottles of whiskey that are no longer being produced for $500 a bottle, when he bought them for probably $30 a piece. His already high profit margins are only getting higher, and all that profit will go untaxed. Meanwhile, a business struggling to survive that has a high level of expenses would have to pay significantly more for any products they buy, and that could be a death knell for such a company.

Though I'm not sure how much sales tax a business can deduct at the federal level. That could marginalize this problem considerably.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Taxing business expenditures incentivizes profit so the extra will trickle down to.... oh wait that's an expense.

Maybe they should try selling the Romney tax plan as incentivizing wage growth.
 
T

T'Zariah

Banned
Has anyone actually been called ignorant by a teabagger/ultra-conservative when you try to logically explain why they're wrong?

Never been more annoyed in my life.
 
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