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Shuhei Yoshida: The Last Guardian took 11 years to make because the PS3 couldn't run the game (10-15 fps)
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Esppiral
Member
The patched version caps the framerate to 30, but the physical release version has uncapped framerate so it runs at 60 FPS on Ps5 (as long as you don't update the game), and it is beautiful. Long live physical games
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
This was known.
GPGPU did the heavy lifting.
Just like ICO was designed for the PS1, but it could not handle their vision, so it moved over to the PS2.
GPGPU did the heavy lifting.
Just like ICO was designed for the PS1, but it could not handle their vision, so it moved over to the PS2.
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A.Romero
Member
Love Ueda games but there is absolutely nothing that couldn't be done on PS3 y they aimed to comply with what the machine's capabilities.
I bought it for PS4 when it came out and liked it but also felt that by the time it was released it wasn't technically impressive.
Still, I hope Ueda finds a way to keep pursuing their vision. I just can't blame Sony for not doing it anymore.
I bought it for PS4 when it came out and liked it but also felt that by the time it was released it wasn't technically impressive.
Still, I hope Ueda finds a way to keep pursuing their vision. I just can't blame Sony for not doing it anymore.
yurinka
Member
He fired Ueda and other team members for the money sink that was this project they weren't able to complete, fix and ship. Shu did put other people to complete the game but yes, did put as external contractor Ueda's small team of ex-Japan Studio fired employees and allowed him to be the PR face of the project.
Buggy Loop
Member
With PS4 emulation getting so good, I wonder what's the state of emulated Last Guardian.
LavitzSlambert
Member
Sounds to me like a creative way to allow Team Ico to actually ship a final product they were passionate about, even when it went beyond what Sony as an organization was willing to put up with when they were in a dire situation during the PS3 era. The alternative was to fire the team and kill the game to stop Sony's bleeding, and have their vision never come to light.
Also speaks to what a nightmare it must have been transitioning to the HD era and having to salvage the game from the Cell codebase.
Esppiral
Member
I wish someday the Psx version surfaces
genesisblock
Member
Not impressive? Having to balance a chaotic AI with path scripting along with command-relationship the further across the game must be a nightmare to program with and computationally expensive to push those physics and collisions. You drank way too much of an Unreal 5 and Ray-Traving coolaid to consider this a non-technically demanding game even when it’s officially proven that the PS3 couldn’t struggle to run it at a playable frame rate.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Physiognomonics
Member
You are right, I meant done by Playstation.
A.Romero
Member
I didn't drink any Kool-Aid, friend. I never even mentioned Unreal.
I didn't see anything there that couldn't be done on PS3, except for graphics of course. The fact that they had to speed up the trailer so it could be shown running at 30FPS tells you that they never aimed to release in that gen or at least they were victims of wishful thinking.
The game even got delayed because it was so customized to Cell if I remember correctly. So yes, that sounds to me a lack of technical management capabilities. What's the point in customizing for Cell if it wasn't possible?
They were so much ahead that you can still see some of the low res textures they had on the PS3 version.
As I said: I love Ueda's games but they are not technical wizards.
awwr999999
Member
30fps progressive in 16:9 would've been well over 60fps interlaced in 4:3. The aspect ratio alone eats ~30% more resources and pro gamers still go out of their way to use 4:3.
PS3's the fork in the road where PS took a handful of wrong turns that have never been corrected in subsequent PS consoles.
Games would look and feel entirely different today if Sony had kept PS on full esoteric HW.
PaintTinJr
Member
I think what Shu really meant was that there was no way against the DF 360/PS3 pixel count era war that they could release the game (say at 960x540@25/30) and not have the beauty of the game experience completely overshadowed by that outlet's 'analysis' at that stage in the generation.
You can still see that the game was built around the strengths of the PS3 and only the 'HD Ready' resolution constraint for the RSX was a performance problem because the area in the water with Trico 4/5ths of the way through was a puzzle that was clearly designed to accelerate the physics on the powerful SPUs, because on entering that section PS4 effectively chokes despite it being a graphically simpler contained area with just the physics simulation taxing the hardware, in much the same way the port of Journey has both enhancements and downgrades from transition from PS3 to PS4.
Still an amazing game, but feel it would have had far more impact releasing on PS3 even had it ran at 540p.
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Hawking Radiation
Member
Socom
Killzone 2
Jak 2
Kingdom Hearts
You would be able to remake all of these for that amount of money and it would sell. Those who greenlight Concord should be chemically castrated in the middle of Piccadilly Circus
Probably the same people that bought an Xbox One to play Scalebound. Anytime now.
Fbh
Member
I like Ueda and really enjoyed TLG but there is also some technical incompetence here.
Aside from some setpiece moments there was nothing that felt that technologically crazy in there. It's not like SOTC that at least felt like it was doing scale like no other game before (and honestly no game since). And then still having it running at mostly 20-25fps on the Ps4 was just inexcusable tbh.
Should we remaster the games that are locked to 30fps?
Of course not! It's the games that already run at 60fps and decently high resolutions on ps5 that need remastering!
Aside from some setpiece moments there was nothing that felt that technologically crazy in there. It's not like SOTC that at least felt like it was doing scale like no other game before (and honestly no game since). And then still having it running at mostly 20-25fps on the Ps4 was just inexcusable tbh.
Should we remaster the games that are locked to 30fps?
Of course not! It's the games that already run at 60fps and decently high resolutions on ps5 that need remastering!
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genesisblock
Member
Any game that can't handle a playable frame rate is by definition is either a poorly optimized game or a technically demanding one. Your argument has no logic to it. An unplayable framerate does not mean the console is capable of "running a game".
It isn't just Ueda who's having issues with the Cell and the rest of the console generation, even Bioshock Infinite had to significantly scale down it's design because it too demanding. Singling Team Ico out for one of the most notorious hardware in any console period given their team size and budget is just poor dismissal and overlooking the point.
And really, none technical wizards? SoTC was a landmark achievement in the PS2 from lighting to the collisions. This is why I brought up Unreal and Nvidia, you're measure of "tech wizardry" is so simplified it can be boiled down to those two examples. You even mention "textures". Well no shit, they can't re do the art as it would delay the game further, they had to simply reprogram the entire game to the PS4 and gey out there was a resolution bump.
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DonJimbo
Member
Shu was the saviour he made the right move to fire snail Ueda but good at the end with got The Last Guardian finally on the ps4
Team Andromeda
Member
Old news we all know this and also how SONY speeded up the gameplay footage for E3 etc.
{insert code here}
Member
Shu is a legend for helping them see it through.
yurinka
Member
As said, TLG as concept doesn't have anything that prevented it from running on PS3. Pretty likely the framerate was fucked because of the physics of all these Trico feathers, particles of dust etc.
If they drop all that and just animate some feathers and dust manually the game would be the same and the framerate much better, reaching playable levels, even if the game wouldn't look as good as in the trailer.
Devs always try to find a balance to reach a point where the performance is good enough and the game looks good enough.
Pretty likely they also struggled having to make their own engine for martian PS3 hardware.
But this is the tech side of the game, totally unrelated with Ueda. He's a creative/arstist guy, not a tech guy. If something, being the director on one side didn't find a clear vision for the project that didn't allow the team to progress smoothly at a decent pace. And in addition to these, he could be stubborn on making the game look good instead of in sacrificing some physics or stuff to improve the performance to playable levels.
At some point kicked him and did put somewhere else to take more pragmatic and clear decisions and vision to finally ship the game asap.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Huh, now I kinda want a demake of Ico for the PS1.
The models look pretty raw compared to what PS1 was pushing in the year of dreams 1998, but on the other hand, the work on the animations here is extraordinary and way beyond what most devs were going for at the time.
However, I never exactly loved Ueda’s games. I understand the jankiness of these games played well with the intention of making the main characters clumsy young boys, but Ico and SOTC were often a chore to play. Phenomenal artistic vision, but generally poor gameplay that was definitely mismatched with the scope of the game, especially in SOTC. And there’s good reasons why this kind of jankiness would not be received well today, even if a new game had the same sense of wonder as their previous ones. I mean, even they thought TLG ran too badly on PS3 to release, even if SOTC would easily dip below 20fps in several occasions.
PaintTinJr
Member
No, it is actually quite the opposite.
The PS3 had no issue of having excess performance for physics simulations and was far more flexible for physics on CPU level SPUs compared to GPGPU async.
It was the rather conservative fill-rate for the time of the RSX that was the problem for all games that gen with unpredictable workloads, which is why resolution on overdraw heavy fx was always the compromise when rendering was at 30fps 720p was an issue on PS3
awwr999999
Member
SoTC's among the most important games ever made for a whole list of reasons.
Post-PS2 all of the amazing stories about studios doing incredibly clever things "getting games to work" died off entirely.
Constraints and limitations make studios complain about HW but they force studios make better games. The post-constraint HW era that started with PS3 hasn't given us better games than the PS1/PS2 era.
None of the SoTC remakes on newer PS HW has ever been able to match the original game's aesthetic as it exists on PS2 HW.
