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[MMaRsu]

A showcase can still be good if the games turn out bad

Remember Shenmue 3?

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

They look mid if one hasn't played them.

Or worse, going by reviews.

I think they look great at showcases and end up mid.
I'm hoping Fable, Clockwork and Perfect Dark come through. Well all know things like Doom and CoD will be fine.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think that PlayStation is in trouble because they are being run by people who are overly focused on the short term, and that includes Jim Ryan. For people focused on short term, immediate sales are everything.

What are you talking about?

Helldivers 2 and Spiderman 2 continue to sell great in 2025. Those were intelligent, long term bets that paid off.
Marathon is a "forever game" that is building momentum. Fairgames is another long term bet that I suspect will land much differently than the bubble believes.

How can you look at the long term performance of that 2023 Xbox showcase and think "PlayStation is making short term bets"?

PlayStation is building franchises out of marble. Xbox is building franchises out of sand. There likely won't be a Starfield 2 because Starfield didn't generate enough positive sentiment. South of Midnight 2? Avowed 2? Come on brother, snap out of it!

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I think they look great at showcases and end up mid.
I'm hoping Fable, Clockwork and Perfect Dark come through. Well all know things like Doom and CoD will be fine.

Starfield, Forza could have done better.

Outside of that, all 3 recent releases, Indi, Avowed, South of Midnight are better than their showings.

 

[diffusionx]

What are you talking about?

Helldivers 2 and Spiderman 2 continue to sell great in 2025. Those were intelligent, long term bets that paid off.
Marathon is a "forever game" that is building momentum. Fairgames is another long term bet that I suspect will land much differently than the bubble believes.

How can you look at the long term performance of that 2023 Xbox showcase and think "PlayStation is making short term bets"?

PlayStation is building franchises out of marble. Xbox is building franchises out of sand. There likely won't be a Starfield 2 because Starfield didn't generate enough positive sentiment. South of Midnight 2? Avowed 2? Come on brother, snap out of it!

I don't know how well Spiderman 2 is selling but I outlined my feelings on the game. I don't think people like it that much overall. Helldivers 2 is a good game and stands in opposition to what I was saying about the rest. Marathon and Fairgame%, no comment but you seem to be the only one excited about it on this forum. Let's just say I will be surprised if those games are hits. I also think their push to release PC ports is a big mistake.

There is a reason why Sony conducted a company wide review of their development studios after Concord shit the bed, and canceled a bunch of stuff. They saw the problem. Of course, that is a positive for them, that they recognized it, but it's obvious they had issues.

 

[Ozriel]

You're missing my point.

It went from "PlayStation had a terrible showcase...Jim Ryan will be fired." (with an elongated 6 month farewell tour...with parties and cookies with his face printed on them)

to

"Well, just because the market ultimately loved PlayStations showcase, doesn't mean the show was good."

People are desperately trying to ignore the fact that they tied business outcomes to their evaluation in 2023, but don't want to do that upon rereview."

Michael Pachter gets way too much hate. So many people whiff as badly as he does but never bring it up.

Nobody tied business outcomes to their evaluation, back in June 2023. The sentiment was purely based on the hype and quality of the showcases, not on commercial results years later.
The premise of this thread makes no sense. At all

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Starfield, Forza could have done better.

Outside of that, all 3 recent releases, Indi, Avowed, South of Midnight are better than their showings.

They're all still mid though. Maybe better than the showings. Indy at least had really great graphics and story.

 

[QLQ]

Sony had Concord.. /thread

and MS had Starfield /thread

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Nobody tied business outcomes to their evaluation, back in June 2023.

Poppycock.

The sentiment was purely based on the hype and quality of the showcases, not on commercial results years later.
The premise of this thread makes no sense. At all.

If you don't think the Jim Ryan / PlayStation FUD built up to a fever pitch in mid to late 2023, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Punished Miku]

Poppycock.

Dang, you definitely won that exchange.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I know my own taste

I mean - you played Starfield for 500 hours so…

 

[vaibhavpisal]

They're all still mid though. Maybe better than the showings. Indy at least had really great graphics and story.

I loved Avowed.

South of Midnight also has exceeded expectations so far.

 

[Ozriel]

If you don't think the Jim Ryan / PlayStation FUD built up to a fever pitch in mid to late 2023, then I don't know what to say.

Many of those people were down on the showcase because they thought it was not exciting enough and uninspiring. Also the opposition to GaaS games instead of single player games. The narrative then was that the likes of Fairgame$ wasn't what they wanted.

Are you seriously arguing that people thought Spiderman 2 wouldn't sell well? Or Bungie's next big shooter?

The narrative then was largely driven by Sony's GaaS vs Single player focus, but you're now too scared to open up that discourse again after being constantly reamed over the topic by PS fans here.

 

[diffusionx]

Nobody tied business outcomes to their evaluation, back in June 2023. The sentiment was purely based on the hype and quality of the showcases, not on commercial results years later.
The premise of this thread makes no sense. At all

I usually don't like the threads this guy makes but I do think it is interesting to go back to old showcases and see how it plays out.

In this case, the stuff that people got hyped up over all turned out to be almost nothing. The one game that actually came out and delivered was also the one people cared about practically the least (Helldivers 2). Shartfield was a disaster that got a lot of sales initially because MS was very adept at showing the game people wanted it to be, not the game it actually was. They knew it was a turd.

 

[Baemono]

Michael Pachter gets way too much hate.

Because he keeps insisting on his nonsense for years, even if he's being proven wrong all the time.

I mean how can you manage to have the worst takes ever, and being a profesional at it ?

 

[Baemono]

Or Bungie's next big shooter?

Eh, honestly I don't see it being big. But I might be wrong.

 

[adamsapple]

Many of those people were down on the showcase because they thought it was not exciting enough and uninspiring. Also the opposition to GaaS games instead of single player games. The narrative then was that the likes of Fairgame$ wasn't what they wanted.

Are you seriously arguing that people thought Spiderman 2 wouldn't sell well? Or Bungie's next big shooter?

The narrative then was largely driven by Sony's GaaS vs Single player focus, but you're now too scared to open up that discourse again after being constantly reamed over the topic by PS fans here.

For all future references, temper your excitement in State of Plays or Showcases until we get the end of year sales results.

Easy.

 

[Ozriel]

I usually don't like the threads this guy makes but I do think it is interesting to go back to old showcases and see how it plays out.

In this case, the stuff that people got hyped up over all turned out to be almost nothing. The one game that actually came out and delivered was also the one people cared about practically the least (Helldivers 2). Shartfield was a disaster that got a lot of sales initially because MS was very adept at showing the game people wanted it to be, not the game it actually was. They knew it was a turd.

Sure, but that's a different conversation entirely.

There's a difference between

"How did the E3 2015 conference games turn out?" and "People were wrong to be blown away by the E3 2015 conference".

 

[Punished Miku]

For all future references, temper your excitement in State of Plays or Showcases until we get the end of year sales results.

Easy.

In Men_in_Boxes defense thats been my experience talking to most people on here this entire gen. I dont get it.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I don't know how well Spiderman 2 is selling but I outlined my feelings on the game. I don't think people like it that much overall.

This is the problem. We're tying personal feelings to portfolio strategy.

I can assure you my disdain for Spiderman 2 exceeds your own, but it's very cleary a hit and positions Spiderman 3 as an automatic. Starfield 2? No.

Fact: Spiderman 2 has a crazy high completion percentage. That's the best sign we have that people enjoyed the game.

Helldivers 2 is a good game and stands in opposition to what I was saying about the rest. Marathon and Fairgame%, no comment but you seem to be the only one excited about it on this forum. Let's just say I will be surprised if those games are hits. I also think their push to release PC ports is a big mistake.

I benefit from day walker advantage here. People who don't listen to Jazz music have no idea about new Jazz music. It all sounds like random sounds to you. Marathon is a safe hit. Now will it average 20k players on Steam or 80k players on Steam is the question.

There is a reason why Sony conducted a company wide review of their development studios after Concord shit the bed, and canceled a bunch of stuff. They saw the problem. Of course, that is a positive for them, that they recognized it, but it's obvious they had issues.

There's also a reason why a large number of Bungie employees went to a new part of PlayStation to help facilitate Live Service success just a few months ago.

PlayStation knows the big swings are what matter.

 

[AJUMP23]

Everything from those showcases turned out average.

 

[Chukhopops]

Obvious troll thread with the Fairgames mention but I find it interesting that people care so much about "needle movers".

On top of all the games mentioned in the OT, the Xbox showcase had games like Jusant, Dungeons of Hinterberg, Path of the Goddess, Persona 3: Reload, all of which ended up being excellent SP games. Looking back at the list of announcements it's just a lot of really solid stuff (including Avowed obviously) with only Fable being delayed.

If what moves the needle is yet another extraction shooter GaaS or a Jade Raymond GaaS then the needle can go fuck itself imo.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The narrative then was largely driven by Sony's GaaS vs Single player focus, but you're now too scared to open up that discourse again after being constantly reamed over the topic by PS fans here

More false words were never spoken in the history of mankind. My singular fascination in the industry focuses on the SP vs MP markets shifting over time.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Sony had Concord.. /thread

And soon Fairgames...

 

[diffusionx]

This is the problem. We're tying personal feelings to portfolio strategy.

I can assure you my disdain for Spiderman 2 exceeds your own, but it's very cleary a hit and positions Spiderman 3 as an automatic. Starfield 2? No.

Fact: Spiderman 2 has a crazy high completion percentage. That's the best sign we have that people enjoyed the game.

I benefit from day walker advantage here. People who don't listen to Jazz music have no idea about new Jazz music. It all sounds like random sounds to you. Marathon is a safe hit. Now will it average 20k players on Steam or 80k players on Steam is the question.

There's also a reason why a large number of Bungie employees went to a new part of PlayStation to help facilitate Live Service success just a few months ago.

PlayStation knows the big swings are what matter.

I never denied that Spiderman 2 was a hit. I said that the game will hurt the franchise moving forward, because it's not as good as it should be or could have been. Sony needs to take better care of their crown jewels.

 

[Baemono]

I never denied that Spiderman 2 was a hit. I said that the game will hurt the franchise moving forward, because it's not as good as it should be or could have been. Sony needs to take better care of their crown jewels.

What do you feel is wrong with Spider-Man 2 ?

 

[Bernardougf]

Im by any means an Xbox fan far from this.. but the Xbox showcase was better, more and more diverse type of SP games ... ps5 was 1 shitty woke sequel and all gaaaaas, fuck this.

 

[simpatico]

Both of those lineups did and continue to look and smell like shit.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I never denied that Spiderman 2 was a hit. I said that the game will hurt the franchise moving forward, because it's not as good as it should be or could have been. Sony needs to take better care of their crown jewels.

You could be right. You could be wrong.

The fact that Spiderman 2 continues to sell well in 2025 and has one of the highest completion rates of any PlayStation Studios game, suggests you're wrong.

We'll know for sure if / when Spiderman 3 sells considerably less than Spiderman 2.

But please, keep ignoring the crown jewels of the 2023 Xbox showcase...oh wait...there were none.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Starfield and Avowed are some of the biggest "bait and switch" examples in gaming I've seen

Initial reveals were hype, end product was massively disappointing

 

[diffusionx]

You could be right. You could be wrong.

The fact that Spiderman 2 continues to sell well in 2025 and has one of the highest completion rates of any PlayStation Studios game, suggests you're wrong.

We'll know for sure if / when Spiderman 3 sells considerably less than Spiderman 2.

But please, keep ignoring the crown jewels of the 2023 Xbox showcase...oh wait...there were none.

I don't know. Spiderman 2 is relatively short if you only play the main missions, it's much shorter than say God of War or Last of Us 2.

I clearly said that the Xbox showcase was a bunch of mid junk, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up to me.

 

[L*][*N*K]

Sony's line up is one of the best, especially Concord what a gem.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

For all future references, temper your excitement in State of Plays or Showcases until we get the end of year sales results.

Easy.

I took the kids to see Minecraft and thought it was trash. But then I read it's already approaching $400,000,000 so I guess I was wrong and the movie is actually amazing

OP and Lost dude thought we'd be in Season 8 of Concord by now.

 

[L*][*N*K]

Starfield and Avowed are some of the biggest "bait and switch" examples in gaming I've seen

Initial reveals were hype, end product was massively disappointing

Every Xbox game that doesn't release on PlayStation on day one will have that problem, the preception of the whole brand is that

 

[adamsapple]

Im by any means an Xbox fan far from this.. but the Xbox showcase was better, more and more diverse type of SP games ... ps5 was 1 shitty woke sequel and all gaaaaas, fuck this.

Gaffers watching the Xbox showcase '23

Meanwhile Men_in_Boxes

 

[Kacho]

Starfield and Avowed are some of the biggest "bait and switch" examples in gaming I've seen

Initial reveals were hype, end product was massively disappointing

They couldn't make more Kacho ass games and I hated them. We're in the worst timeline, dude. I was so optimistic in the early 2010s.

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

I judge Showcases based on their entertainment value. Whether the games showcased end up being fantastic or shit don't matter to me. It's about the hype that is generated in the moment.

 

[Clear]

Bro these are your exact words, not mine.

Helldivers 2 covered those losses already and is a mainstay on PlayStations top selling games every month in 2025

Please point to a mirror, not to me, when you talk about moving goalposts.



A movie franchise? come on now, lol.



I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the 'narrative' has always been negative and that Concord just provided more ammo? Or are you saying that the 'narrative' has and always was positive?

If you think it's the latter, there have been enough polls on this forum to know that you are the extreme outlier in that line of thinking.

Not even close, but you know that already.

- SoM didn't cost a reported $400 million.
- SoM didn't get taken off of the shelves and all digital storefronts in a week
- SoM hasn't led to the studio being immediately closed (so far)
- Despite being on Game Pass on multiple platforms, SoM did more than double Concord on SteamDB.

SoM is the only thing of note from a studio MS has owned for over 7 years.
I don't wish ill on anyone there, but that's not healthy. I'd expect them to be disbanded within the year.

 

[Topher]

No one got anything "wrong". It was judged on what was presented at the time. What a stupid thread.

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

Xbox June 2023 Showcase:
Starfield
Avowed
South of Midnight
Flight Sim 2024
Forza Motorsport
Hellblade II

Clockwork Revolution
Fable

PlayStation May 2023 Showcase:
Spiderman 2
Helldivers 2
Concord

Marathon
Fairgames


The overarching narratives for these two showcases was that Xbox had their best showcase in years, while PlayStation was being run into the ground by Jim Ryan. The histrionics were truly palpable.

Time really brings things into clarity doesn't it?

PS: I use the term "we" here a lot, but that's a form of false humility. I recognized going for yard vs low probability bunts right away. The market digs the long ball.

Agreed except Jim Ryan is correct as ps weakness is lack of gaas titles. Folks expecting casuals to spend 70 usd on socom ect…

Note budget titles would be better for older franchises aka twisted metal/ socom ect..

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Gaffers watching the Xbox showcase '23

Meanwhile Men_in_Boxes

Correction: Outside of Starfield and Fable, they all looked like bunts immediately.

 

[adamsapple]

No one got anything "wrong". It was judged on what was presented at the time. What a stupid thread.

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

What are you talking about?

Helldivers 2 and Spiderman 2 continue to sell great in 2025. Those were intelligent, long term bets that paid off.
Marathon is a "forever game" that is building momentum. Fairgames is another long term bet that I suspect will land much differently than the bubble believes.

How can you look at the long term performance of that 2023 Xbox showcase and think "PlayStation is making short term bets"?

PlayStation is building franchises out of marble. Xbox is building franchises out of sand. There likely won't be a Starfield 2 because Starfield didn't generate enough positive sentiment. South of Midnight 2? Avowed 2? Come on brother, snap out of it!

That depends on the metric msft is using. They are not using traditional sales and if we look at the Xbox charts the most played are msft games.

 

[diffusionx]

That depends on the metric msft is using. They are not using traditional sales and if we look at the Xbox charts the most played are msft games.

Yes, streaming services spent years trying to convince people, including their shareholders, that the amount of money they made was the least important thing.

They were wrong.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That depends on the metric msft is using. They are not using traditional sales and if we look at the Xbox charts the most played are msft games.

True.

However, it's relatively safe to say both companies (all companies really) are in the business of building franchises.

The 2023 PlayStation Showcase did that.

The 2023 Xbox Showcase didn't.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Stfu pony

 

[Insanemaelstrom]

This is the problem. We're tying personal feelings to portfolio strategy.

I can assure you my disdain for Spiderman 2 exceeds your own, but it's very cleary a hit and positions Spiderman 3 as an automatic. Starfield 2? No.

Fact: Spiderman 2 has a crazy high completion percentage. That's the best sign we have that people enjoyed the game.

I benefit from day walker advantage here. People who don't listen to Jazz music have no idea about new Jazz music. It all sounds like random sounds to you. Marathon is a safe hit. Now will it average 20k players on Steam or 80k players on Steam is the question.

There's also a reason why a large number of Bungie employees went to a new part of PlayStation to help facilitate Live Service success just a few months ago.

PlayStation knows the big swings are what matter.

The constant put down of Sony exclusive games are hilarious. One area where gaf doesn't reflect the wider market.

Personally, have loved most of the Sony exclusives I have played, I cluding Spiderman 2 and god of war Ragnarok. Don't like both of them as much as their predecessors, but still like them much more than most of the other stuff on the market.

 

[PeteBull]

Both showings were like retards flexing in hindsight, utterly terrible.

Thats why im hoping nintendo will put some fire on sony's ass, they got crazy compacent with microsoft falling from the get go.

We got best sony durning ps1/ps2 times when they knew they gotta put in best foot forward to decimate sega and nintendo, and durning ps4 gen when they knew they gotta make sure to bury xbox, now there is 0 preasure on them hence the reason we getting shit like concord, fairgame$ and other marathon alike turds.
Same way early ps3 days were terrible games wise, coz sony thought they already got whole gaming market in the bag, same like with ps5 now...

Hell even sony at its previous worst, so early ps3 days(2006) had this amazing first party trailer:

Look at that beautiful toxic masculinity pouring out of the game, and it launched only 1year into ps3 lifespan, now compare it to current first party ND game, likely gonna launch in 2027 aka 6-7 years after console launch, and they are giving us this instead:

There is a reason this trailer got 109k likes but 291k dislikes, its simply shit

 

[Griffon]

I don't know wtf you're talking about OP, both shows were awful even back then and the results were exactly what was to be expected. MS has no taste and Sony fired every producer who had taste.

 

[Sweden85]

I liked Spiderman 2 better than the first, Venom is my guy