thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
So amid all the news about further chip and even wafer shortages coming about, combined with continued scarcity for the current 9th-generation systems (mainly PS5 and XSX), I've been reconsidering what mid-gen refresh options Microsoft & Sony take this gen. Any equivalent to a PS4 Pro or One X for this crop of consoles is, IMO, not only overkill but impossible. Not because more performance can't be had, but because we're already getting near 2 years for this generation and have yet to see a lot of 9th-gen only software from even 1P devs, let alone 3P. The other issue being that, again, demand for the current 9th-gen systems is nowhere near saturated, and these companies would want to maximize revenue and profit off current system designs before fracturing what few chip and wafer resources they can muster among a new spec'd SKU in their product line.
For those reasons, I don't think power-centric refresh upgrades are in the cards this generation. However, I do think mid-gen refreshes are coming, and will be tailored for each company's business model. In short, I think the mid-gen refreshes will keep the same baseline specs of the current systems (relatively same TF, pixel fillrate, texture fillrate, culling & triangle rasterization, IPC, RAM capacity, bandwidth etc.), BUT will move to smaller node sizes (5nm most likely for most components on the APU) and update for RDNA 3 or RDNA 4 GPU feature support, including dedicated RT, image upscaling and machine-learning hardware based on those designs.
This is the real key for unlocking extra performance for the consoles as the generation goes on, without increasing chip size (meaning lower wafer silicon costs per unit), RAM capacities or bandwidth (saves on costs and heat/cooling), hard storage capacities (decompression I/O can be improved to make better use of same physical capacity amounts), etc. Part of this will also come from adding in a small block of Infinity Cache, and then having these new revisions phase out the original PS5 and Series X units from the distribution chains, while maintaining their original MSRPs.
However, that is only part of what the mid-gen refreshes will bring: there WILL most likely also be new devices from both Sony and Microsoft in this, but aiming at different market segments. So, here's what I think could happen:
[SONY]
------------------
>PS5 Model 2:
------
>PS.FOLD:
=======
[MICROSOFT]
>GAMEPASS TV
----------------
>SERIES C (COMPANION)
--------------
>SERIES UV
-------------
>SERIES 5ive
==============
So, those are my own speculations for what mid-gen refreshes (and new services, at least one based on a rumor we've all heard of by now) Sony & Microsoft could have planned in the next few years, starting with this one. Will some or even any of these come to pass? Dunno, but it's something I'm thinking has a good chance of happening (and hope happens), in any case.
But, do any of the rest of you have any faith that we'll get any unique mid-gen refreshes, new product launches for other market segments and/or service launches & redesigns within the next 3-4 years? If you do, what exactly do you have in mind? What do you WANT to see come to fruition?
For those reasons, I don't think power-centric refresh upgrades are in the cards this generation. However, I do think mid-gen refreshes are coming, and will be tailored for each company's business model. In short, I think the mid-gen refreshes will keep the same baseline specs of the current systems (relatively same TF, pixel fillrate, texture fillrate, culling & triangle rasterization, IPC, RAM capacity, bandwidth etc.), BUT will move to smaller node sizes (5nm most likely for most components on the APU) and update for RDNA 3 or RDNA 4 GPU feature support, including dedicated RT, image upscaling and machine-learning hardware based on those designs.
This is the real key for unlocking extra performance for the consoles as the generation goes on, without increasing chip size (meaning lower wafer silicon costs per unit), RAM capacities or bandwidth (saves on costs and heat/cooling), hard storage capacities (decompression I/O can be improved to make better use of same physical capacity amounts), etc. Part of this will also come from adding in a small block of Infinity Cache, and then having these new revisions phase out the original PS5 and Series X units from the distribution chains, while maintaining their original MSRPs.
However, that is only part of what the mid-gen refreshes will bring: there WILL most likely also be new devices from both Sony and Microsoft in this, but aiming at different market segments. So, here's what I think could happen:
[SONY]
>PROJECT SPARTACUS:
>Not hardware; basically a revised subscription service merging PS+ and PS Now
into a singular package, with tiers of support
>Higher tiers will offer streaming of select PS1/2/3/Vita/PSP/PS4 games,
many with extended QoL features (trophies, shader filters, save state support,
network play). Highest tier will offer bundled subscription perks of Crunchy
roll/Funimation and certain Sony Pictures content
>Higher tiers will also bundle in region-based football & baseball (United States),
soccer (Latin America, Europe) sports season games through deals with deals
through providers like ESPN, etc.
>Game demos for select 1P and 3P releases in 1-hour or 2-hour blocks, save progress
transferrable to full release once purchased
>While not specifically tied to Project Spartacus, planned rollout of a unified
PS1/2/3/PSP/Vita emulator package that can run natively on PS5 and allow native
BC of retro games, including those not offered through streaming side. Feature
to debut sometime in late 2023. Will be provided at highest subscription tier as
a streaming client with a small local package to facilitate reading of game
disc data on local system then processed through cloud and output streamed to
client system device. Will also be provided as a native full downloadable package
without need for subscription, for $99 MSRP. Games sold separately.
>Monthly free games for higher-tiered members
>Planned future features will also include Day 1 PS5 releases through a fixed,
contract-based per-game payment plan ranging from between $3/MO to $7/MO,
only requirement being users must have games on the plan that have not been
paid off verify status online through a monthly check-in system (also used
in order to request next installment payment) and virtual tickets for theatrical
Sony Pictures new releases available Day 1 via streaming
>Day 1 1P releases fixed contract system: H1 2023. Exclusive to PS5
versions of 1P games (later implementation on PC side in a few years)
>Subscription Tiers:
>Tier 1: $4.99/MO. Includes online multiplayer and limited access to
streaming game catalogue (PS1/2/3/4/5/PSP/Vita) only. Limited QoL features
for pre-PS4 streamed games (no trophies/shaders/network play). Only one free
monthly game (single choice, single game offering), limited to PS4 and
smaller PS5 games only
>All PS+ or PS Now subscribers (but not both) will be converted
to Tier 1 automatically
>Tier 2: $7.99/MO. Includes online multiplayer and larger access to
streaming game catalogue (all systems). Includes expanded QoL features
for pre-PS4 streamed games (shaders and trophies included). One free
game per month, but choice selection expanded to 2 offered titles. Includes
1-hour/2-hour game demos for select 1P & 3P games
>Subscribers with both PS+ and PS Now will be automatically
converted to the Tier 2 status
>Tier 3: $9.99/MO. Includes online multiplayer and full access to streaming
catalogue (all systems). Includes expanded QoL features for pre-PS4
streamed games (network play added). One free game per month, with choice
selection expanded to 3 offered titles. Includes 1-hour/2-hour game demos
for select 1P & 3P games. Limited access to Crunchyroll/Funimation content
also included
>Tier 4: $14.99/MO. Includes online multiplayer and full access to streaming
catalogue (all systems). Includes all QoL features for pre-PS4 streamed games.
One free game per month, with choice selection of 3 offered titles. Includes
1-hour/2-hour game demos for select 1P & 3P games. Included bundled subscription
to Funimation/Crunchyroll and rotating selection of Sony Pictures, Sony Television
and Sony Music content as well as regional sports game streaming packages
(basketball, football, soccer, tennis etc.) depending on region. Includes
cloud & client emulation package for play of pre-PS4 games not available in the
marketplace (client must have original disc)
>Year-round offerings for Tier 1 and Tier 2 subscriptions will be offered at select
retailers as card purchases. However, Tier 3 will have such restricted to 6-month
cards, and Tier 4 as 3-month cards only.
>All main features will eventually be finalized within a 2-3 year window with
Project Spartacus getting a version for PC including a full storefront, launcher
and various perks in two models (Free and Licensed), in H2 2025
>LAUNCH: Fall 2022
------------------
>PS5 Model 2:
>Mid-gen refresh and slimline version of PS5
>Reduced-cost redesign of base PS5 system
>6nm (CPU)/5nm (GPU) process
>Same performance profile of original PS5 (2.3 GHz GPU, similar SSD I/O,
etc.) but on improved/mature N6/N5 process to help noticeably lower power
consumption and generated heat, helping to reduce package size
>GPU is comprised of 1 GCD with 2 SEs, 2 SAs (per SE), 3 WGPs (per SA), 8 SIMD
units (WGP), and 32 ALUs (per SIMD unit), for 3072 shader cores
>13.7 TF performance
>64 ROPs (142.7 Gpixels/sec pixel fillrate)
>144 TMUs (321 Gtexels/sec texture fillrate)
>Remains Zen 2-based but higher-clocked (8C/16T, 3.7 GHz)
>RDNA 4 GPU architecture with hardware-accelerated RT and dedicated
ML cores
>48 MB of L3$ Infinity Cache for GPU
>16 GB of GDDR7 as 8x 2 GB modules, 14 Gbps bandwidth, for effective
bandwidth of 448 GB/s (same as original PS5)
*GDDR7 brings lower power consumption compared to GDDR6
>Utilizes redesigned/improved merged ASIC for SSD I/O
>Utilizes redesigned SSD subsystem; no soldered NAND on device as internal
storage is now a more standard M.2 drive form factor (designed by Sony),
bandwidth of 8 GB/s with support for drives of up to 16 GB/s. Hardware
decompression ratio is same as original PS5 (4:1) and hardware limit
also remains same (22 GB/s)
>Storage capacity reduced to 512 GB M.2 drive
>Digital and Disc support
>Will wholly replace PS5 Digital & PS5 Disc (both will cease production
by early 2024)
>Also features microSD card slot, USH-II SDXC support of up to 312 MB/s
with decompression support by the SSD I/O. Up to 1 TB capacity support
>MSRP: $449
>RELEASE: Early Spring (March) 2024
------
>PS.FOLD:
>Portable gaming device with ability to play PS4 games natively
(docked or portable, plugged & unplugged), streamed PS4 Pro games
(docked or portable, plugged & unplugged), and stream PS5 games
(docked or portable, plugged & unplugged)
>Screen measures 7" diagonal, 425 nits of brightness. Anti-glare
glass finish, touch-enabled
>Targeted as the low-cost entry point into PlayStation ecosystem
>Will allow for continued production of PS4 games with easy upgradability
options to PS5. Boon for smaller dev houses working on smaller budgets
and less resources, as well as Japanese market
>6nm process
>Uses a reduced-set Zen 2-based, 8C/8T CPU that can run at PS4 and PS4 Pro
CPU clockrates
>Uses an 18 CU GPU design scoped to match the CU design of the PS4 base,
meaning a GPU that despite being 18 CUs (same as PS4), is almost 65%
smaller in size. In spite of this, the GPU supports the RDNA 4 featureset
including many of the features of PS5 M2's custom variant (outside of
some things such as cache scrubbers)
>Supported GPU clock rates are 800 MHz (PS4) and 911 MHz (PS4 Pro)
>8 GB GDDR7 as 4x 2 GB 11 Gbps modules providing 176 GB/s of bandwidth.
>256 GB microSD at UHS-II interface speeds, 150 MB/s read bandwidth.
Supports up to 1 TB, 256 MB/s microSD SDXC
>1x USB Type-C port; can be used for wired PS4/PS5 controllers or
to charge the unit
>HDMI 2.1 Out port on dock for television passthrough signal
>Supports VRR
>Docking unit is optional (required for higher clock mode); $99 MSRP
>Includes additional USB ports and ethernet port
>MSRP: $299 (PS.Fold only), $399 (PS.Fold & Docking Unit)
>RELEASE: Fall 2024
=======
[MICROSOFT]
>GAMEPASS TV
>xCloud-powered streaming app for embedded smart TVs to bring GamePass
access to television devices without need of a console, PC, or media box
>Universal account access allows GamePass members on console and PC to
sync smart TV app settings with their other devices and share library
access with the smart TV device
>Smart TVs with Picture-in-Picture (PiP) will have the feature leveraged
through optional capabilities of GamePass TV to seamlessly switch back
and forth between GamePass titles and television viewing, including
the ability to do both simultaneously and, depending on television model
and standards support, adjust audio streams by feed and towards any
mixture of speaker modules in audio home sound system setup
>App is included free in compatible smart TVs, and can be downloaded &
installed on other compatible smart TV devices. First-time subscribers
get 3 months free
>Certain additional features will include players being able to view
saved recordings of other players, being able to access games from
local Series S, X and PC systems to stream through their TV via the
GamePass TV app, and more
>GamePass TV will also correspond timing-wise with Microsoft's push
for more trans-media content based on 1P gaming properties (Halo,
Sea of Thieves, Killer Instinct etc.), done in collaboration with
various production studios. Pseudo-interactive elements will be
produced for some of these leveraging the interactive features of
gaming platforms and such features will be exclusively tied to
the Xbox Series of devices, PC, and mobile
>GamePass TV will also correspond with an expanded push for mobile-
friendly gaming content utilizing 1P properties created in partnership
with 3P development studios (and provided for native & cloud streaming
on Series C, S, X, UV, 5ive, & PC; cloud-only for mobile devices), and
porting more mobile games to Xbox, specifically for native Series C
and GamePass TV
>Further capabilities of GamePass TV will be in hosting shared local &
cloud singular unified segmented gaming sessions for households with
multiple GamePass-compatible devices. For example, games may have
features that can stream different parts of the game world across
multiple television devices where all streamed graphics, audio and logic
are synced through the cloud, and where any mixture of the feeds can
also come from hardware such as an Xbox Series console or PC. Built-in
Bluetooth abilities alongside user-provided cloud-processed positional
detection and/or leveraging of proximity ASIC hardware in paired devices
in the local home network can provide immersive location-based feedback
for different types of game design, depending on the game
>Subscription rates of either $9.99/MO or $14.99/MO; Group, Party (single-
night one-time payment access for large gatherings) and Family subscription
plans will also be provided, as well as options which provide free controllers.
These new plans/tiers will also be provided for GamePass as a whole
>LAUNCH: Fall 2022
----------------
>SERIES C (COMPANION)
>6nm process
>Zen 2 & RDNA 2-based
>4c/8t mobile Zen 2 processor clocked at 1.2 GHz
>10 RDNA 2 CUs clocked at 1 GHz, providing 1.28 TF of performance
>Also supports a Performance Mode option setting the GPU clock
at 1.565 GHz, for 2 TF
>24 ROPs (24 Gpixels/s - 37.56 Gpixels/s pixel fillrate)
>60 TMUs (60 Gtexels/s - 93.9 Gtexels/s texture fillrate)
>Miniature, small footprint mobile box for GamePass streaming via xCloud
-NOT a streaming stick; footprint closer in size to an Apple TV
>Connects to any compatible display device (or other devices such as
computers and laptops) via USB Type-C, provides both data transmission
and charging
>Can also connect to smart TV devices via Wifi, with built-in support for
Wifi 6E. Features built-in ethernet port
>Allows for viewing of live television content;, when configured as an
access point from a main PC or Xbox Series console, can locally stream
4K video content and games
>PiP feature of GamePass TV works with Series C as well, whether
television has built-in PiP or not
>Features support for all GamePass TV capabilities
>2x USB Gen 4 2x2 (2.4 GB/s) Type-C port (power supply, wired data transfer
(optional)), 1x USB Gen 3 Type-A port
>While primarily a GamePass xcloud streaming machine, also comes
with built-in apps for Netflix, Youtube, Disney+, HBO Max, Hulu, & Peacock
>Features 128 GB internal storage via an upgradable 120 MB/s USH-II SDXC
microSD card, & additional 8 GB of onboard soldered NAND for OS and
update file packages (non-replaceable/non-accessible by user). Internal
storage is replaceable, supports up to 1 TB microSD SDXC cards of up to 240
MB/s bandwidths
>Streaming bitrate options can be set on the device for those with more
strict data plans; streaming bitrate options can be set for each individual
profile, across system itself and profile settings can be shared among
the device and other devices supporting GamePass that the user has their
account registered with. Other options include being able to set
active online network access times by either time or bandwidth for different
networks across each shared account (these features will also be implemented
out to existing Xbox platforms like the Series S and Series X as well)
>4 GB of GDDR6 memory as 2x 12 Gbps modules providing 96 GB/s effective bandwidth
>Comes with either universal remote & Xbox Series controller
>MSRP: $149
>RELEASE: Fall 2023
--------------
>SERIES UV
>5nm process for CPU & GPU
>Slimmed-down, digital-only replacement for Series S, phases out Series S
(Series C factors as replacement for Series S)
>Series S reduced to $249 in late 2023 as Series UV
"takes its place" in the pricing structure. In H1 2024,
Series S ceases manufacturing, last units in distribution
will reduced to $199
>Series S will also move to 6nm node*, but retain Zen 2/RDNA 2
specifications and original storage I/O design, in a smaller
package
*late 2022
>Custom RDNA 4
>Zen 2 CPU; 8c/16t @ 3.6 GHz (same as Series S's clock)
>Uses introduction of AMD's Neural Engine, an ASIC block nested alongside
the CPU cores (and sharing the scheduler) aimed at accelerating ML tasks.
One is within the GPU
>GPU is comprised of 1 GCD, with 1 SE, 2 SAs, 3 WGPs (per SA), 8 SIMD units
(per WGP), and 32 ALUs (per SIMD unit), giving 1,536 shader cores
>1.565 GHz GPU clock for 4.8 TF
>4 Prim units (2 geo cul/1 tri rast each)
>32 ROPs (effective pixel fillrate of 50 Gpixels/S)
*24 ROPs per SE
>80 TMUs (effective texel fillrate of 125.2 Gtexels/S)
*80 TMUs per SE
[GPU CACHES]
>L0$: 32 KB per WGP (4 KB per SIMD32) (320 KB total)
>L1$: 128 KB per WGP (1.28 MB total)
>L2$: 768 KB per Array (1.5 MB per SE, 1.5 MB total)
>L3$: 2 MB per Engine (2 MB total)
>L4$: 4 MB per GCD (4 MB total)
>64 MB of Infinity Cache for alleviating cache misses and easing access
on main system memory
>12.52 billion geometry culling rate
>6.26 billion triangle rasterization rate
>10 GB of 14 Gbps GDDR7 providing 280 GB/s bandwidth as 5x 2 GB modules
(2 GB (56 GB/s) for CPU * audio, 8 GB (224 GB/s) for GPU)
>Integrated support for CF Express, primarily as BC for Series expansion cards
>Now features internal support for M.2 SSD drives; includes default 512 GB
capacity NVMe 2.0, PCIe Gen 5.0 x4 M.2 drive of 2.4 GB/s bandwidth. Supports
drives up to 8 TB capacity, 8 GB/s bandwidths
>Both the M.2 drive and any CF Express expansion card are supported by the
decompression block, which is now designed to support 3:1 decompression
ratio, with a hardware limit of 16 GB/s. However, this is now served by
two parallel units designed as MCM packages, and for Series SX only one
such engine is built in, limiting hardware decompression throughput to
8 GB/s but still supporting 3:1 ratio.
>CF Express port for Series expansion card BC; shares access with the
M.2 drive slot on the decompression I/O block (having both an expansion
card and M.2 drive installed will reduce overall peak bandwidth of M.2
drive if it provides more than 5.6 GB/s in sequential read bandwidth)
>Includes built-in support for Wifi 6E
>10 Gbit ethernet RJ-45 port
>1x USB Gen 3 Type-C port & 1 USB Gen 3 Type-A port
>>Digital-only
>MSRP: $299
>RELEASE: Fall (September-November) 2024
-------------
>SERIES 5ive
>Mid-gen refresh, replaces Series X at the top-end scale
>Series X will be moved to 6nm process in late 2022,
and have price drop to $399 in late 2023. Last Series
X units will be manufactured by mid-2024 with a final
price cut to $349
>5nm process (CPU & GPU)
>Zen 2 CPU. 8c/16t, 4 GHz
>Custom RDNA 4 architecture
>Uses introduction of AMD's Neural Engine, an ASIC block nested alongside
the CPU cores (and sharing the scheduler) aimed at accelerating ML tasks.
One is within the CPU block, another is built into the GPU and both are
altered slightly to fit their uses
>Peak GPU clock rate of 1.825 GHz, providing peak performance of 14.95 TF
>GPU is comprise of 1 GCD, with 2 SE, 2 SAs (per SE), 5 WGPs (per SA), 8 SIMD units
(per WGP), and 32 ALUs (per SIMD unit), giving 4,096 shader cores
>6x 2 GB 14 Gbps & 4x 1 GB 14 Gbps modules providing 16 GB @ 560 GB/s
>64 ROPs (effective pixel fillrate of 116 Gpixels/S)
>208 TMUs (effective texel fillrate of 379 Gtexels/S)
>14.6 billion geometry culling rate
>7.3 billion triangle rasterization rate
>GPU's Neural Engine has sub-engines that are specifically built for RT-accelerated
taskwork
[GPU CACHES]
>L0$: 32 KB per WGP (4 KB per SIMD32) (640 KB total)
>L1$: 128 KB per WGP (2.56 MB total)
>L2$: 768 KB per Array (1.5 MB per SE, 3 MB total)
>L3$: 2 MB per Engine (4 MB total)
>L4$: 8 MB per GCD (8 MB total)
>64 MB of Infinity Cache built into the GPU
>Integrated CF Express port for Series expansion card BC
>Revamped SSD I/O; comes with 1 TB capacity NVMe 2.0 PCIe Gen 5.0 x4 M.2 SSD
@ 8 GB/s bandwidth. Supports up to 20 TB capacity drives of 16 GB/s bandwidth.
>Decompression block is comprised of 2 MCM chiplet engines managed together by
a central unit that provides 3:1 decompression support with a hardware limit
of 24 GB/s.
>Digital and Disc support
>MSRP: $499
>RELEASE: Fall 2024
==============
So, those are my own speculations for what mid-gen refreshes (and new services, at least one based on a rumor we've all heard of by now) Sony & Microsoft could have planned in the next few years, starting with this one. Will some or even any of these come to pass? Dunno, but it's something I'm thinking has a good chance of happening (and hope happens), in any case.
But, do any of the rest of you have any faith that we'll get any unique mid-gen refreshes, new product launches for other market segments and/or service launches & redesigns within the next 3-4 years? If you do, what exactly do you have in mind? What do you WANT to see come to fruition?
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oh don't worry, they're coming...
