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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

H

heliosRAzi

Banned
LegendofLex said:
Who do you think was on Luke's tail in that trench?
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And then got blasted out so Luke could make the shot.


LegendofLex said:
As for the bolded comment: that's pretty much exactly what it means; we're back to the status quo from the OT; this is supposed to be a character-driven story, and having clashing governments just gets in the way of that, as we saw with the prequels.
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Why would that get in the way of the characters?
 
TheSadRanger

TheSadRanger

Banned
Jibbajabbawockky said:
I would be ok with that.

I'm just curious now where they're headed in 8 and 9 between Kylo Ben and Rey. Are they both going to have some super training montage with their respective masters and then just face off Rocky style at the end of 8?

I'm just concerned with how by the numbers and predictable TFA was that they're really going to just play things really straight from here on out.
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I think Fenn has to fit in there somehow because he's also force sensitive. Remember Kylo sensed him on the planet, and also don't you still have to be somewhat force sensitive to use a lightsaber or is that retconned?

I know Han used it in Empire but it was always assumed he was force sensitive.
 
G

Guy.brush

Member
Jibbajabbawockky said:
I would be ok with that.

I'm just curious now where they're headed in 8 and 9 between Kylo Ben and Rey. Are they both going to have some super training montage with their respective masters and then just face off Rocky style at the end of 8?

I'm just concerned with how by the numbers and predictable TFA was that they're really going to just play things really straight from here on out.
Click to expand...

We should make a prediction thread soon.
EPVIII:
  • Starts with amphibious ESB walker style ground assault on Luke and Rey's island location.
  • Kylo and Snoke have a SSD now and chase Luke and Rey to the Outer Rim.
  • Sequence with icy crystalline asteroids or giant space monster
  • Rey has a training montage with Luke Dagobah style.
  • Luke goes after Kylo and gets frozen in carbonite while letting Rey and Co escape.
  • Benicio DelToro is the new Lando, manager of a grey market safe haven near the Outer Rim.
 
P

PatThePassive

Member
TheSadRanger said:
Not really but I mean where do you go with the Emperor being dead. JJ was kind of written into a corner on that one.
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Ren should have been a vader fan boy making up stuff about the darkside of the force from what luke taught him, thats why luke is fine in hiding cause he knows Ren is not a full jedi and will just go down as that crazy religious dude with a shitty sword in the empire, and the jedi and sith will vanish.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
LegendofLex said:
I think the movie gave us plenty of cues, the obvious one being Rey closing her eyes and "letting the Force guide her" and then beating Kylo immediately after he tells her she needs a teacher, as if to reiterate to the audience "that's not how the Force works." (The fact that this line even existed in the movie at all was also supposed to be a clue, methinks.)
Click to expand...
But having a teacher IS how the force works. i.e. the master-apprentice relationship.

LegendofLex said:
Which makes it kind of silly that he needed to do anything special to hit the target, doesn't it?
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No, the point is that it's easy for him because he's Force sensitive. I mentioned that to illustrate the differences between the Luke's hurdle and Rey's hurdle, and how Rey's situation was arguably much harder, thus demonstrating how people might think her deus ex machina (as opposed to Luke's) was a little more seemingly far fetched.

LegendofLex said:
Who do you think was on Luke's tail in that trench?
Click to expand...
Nobody, since Han shot Vader away.

LegendofLex said:
As for the bolded comment: that's pretty much exactly what it means; we're back to the status quo from the OT; this is supposed to be a character-driven story, and having clashing governments just gets in the way of that, as we saw with the prequels.
Click to expand...

Well sure, I appreciate the character-driven nature of Star Wars, but I think they could have done it without invoking another political conspiracy involving multiple parties. Or at least have it explained/shown just a bit more clearly.
 
S

Snake

Member
LegendofLex said:
People typically don't read the prequels correctly, either.

The midichlorian thing is just an in-universe way of showing us that the institutionalized Jedi had embraced certain scientific observations in their understanding of the Force. In truth, the fact that some beings have more Force-sensitive cells in their bodies should have been an easy conclusion once we figured out that "the Force is strong in _____ families."

Obviously none of that means jack shit when it comes to understanding what it takes to be triumphant in the struggle between good and evil, because the prized Jedi Chosen One turned to the dark side and his son didn't defeat him through mastery of the Force but through sacrificial love.

But people seem to insist that it's a defining property of how the Force works in the prequels, despite Obi-Wan handily kicking Anakin's ass even though he's at a "lower power level," despite Yoda retreating to a less orthodox hermit-like lifestyle and teaching technique y the OT, etc.
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You're not wrong about the intent of the films. For years, I used to argue against the people who insist that "midichlorians ruined the force." It always seemed like such a small detail to me, to deepen the way the force was viewed back in the day. Not something meant to take away from the spiritual angle we originally came to know.

But overall, time has shown me that the prequels and a large amount of the EU––aside from whatever Lucas intended to convey––have had the net result of making a large portion of the fanbase view the force as a numbers game and a collection of skills to be learned once enough points have been gained from training. Things like the fetishization of lightsabers duels as events, with each one needing to outdo the last, don't help either.

There is already a long-term tendency towards genre fans thinking about combat and character face-offs in terms of structural absolutes rather than the specifics of the situation, and now matters are worse. Despite the significant lengths that TFA went to in order to establish why the battle between Kylo and Rey would play out like it did, we're still stuck with that event as one of the most debated items in the film.
 
H

heliosRAzi

Banned
Snake said:
That last Luke-Yoda exchange really is a perfect encapsulation of how misguided this debate has become. It's a shame that, for over a decade, midichlorian/power-level nonsense has infected the way a lot of people view the Star Wars universe. Thankfully this is one of the issues that JJ and company got absolutely right.
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Ishida said:
Sadly, this post will go unnoticed. I'm baffled at the amount of "Star Wars fans" that still believe and claim that "the Force was explained as being Midichlorians". Basically, they are angry at their own headcanon despite the movies themselves saying nothing of the sort.
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It's hard to blame people when this

"midi-chlorians are a microscopic lifeform that resides within all living cells and communicate with the Force. ... Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."
Click to expand...

is the information we have to go off of and then Qui Gon telling Yoda that Anakin has the highest midichlorian count he has ever seen and Anakin turning out to be a very powerful Force user.
 
I

Ishida

Banned
heliosRAzi said:
It's hard to blame people when this



is the information we have to go off of and then Qui Gon telling Yoda that Anakin has the highest midichlorian count he has ever seen and Anakin turning out to be a very powerful Force user.
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And... How exactly does this affect the universe in any meaningful way? Midichlorians were just introduced to show the Jedi had adopted an overly scientific understanding of how living things communicate with the Force.

Hell, the same prequel movies have Obi Wan Kenobi defeating Anakin, the "one with the highest level of Midichlorians" out there. That was the whole point, you can measure the potential with the Force, but Midichlorians in the end mean jack.
 
E

EdReedFan20

Member
Crazy that it passed $600 million already. It made about $29.5 million yesterday. I think by the end of Friday, the movie may be the 2nd highest grossing movie of all time domestically, with a chance for the movie to surpass Avatar on Sunday.
 
H

heliosRAzi

Banned
Ishida said:
And... How exactly does this affect the universe in any meaningful way? Midichlorians were just introduced to show the Jedi had adopted an overly scientific understanding of how living things communicate with the Force.
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That's what people have a problem with. It brought science to the mystical. It dragged mystery into the light. It showed audiences the trick behind the illusion. It ceases to be magical and becomes something more mundane. At least, that's I how I feel.

Ishida said:
Hell, the same prequel movies have Obi Wan Kenobi defeating Anakin, the "one with the highest level of Midichlorians" out there. That was the whole point, you can measure the potential with the Force, but Midichlorians in the end mean jack.
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You're right, midichlorians don't mean jack. It was an unnecessary addition that muddles the nature of the Force. It establishes an intermediary. And if you don't have that intermediary, you cannot be a Jedi or Sith. Of course it's not just raw power, but potential, as you say. But when the movie says that Anakin has the highest potential ever, more than that of Yoda, I can't blame people for getting caught up in power levels.
 
I

Ishida

Banned
heliosRAzi said:
That's what people have a problem with. It brought science to the mystical. It dragged mystery into the light. It showed audiences the trick behind the illusion. It ceases to be magical and becomes something more mundane. At least, that's I how I feel.


Midichlorians don't mean jack. It was an unnecessary addition that muddles the nature of the Force. It establishes an intermediary. And if you don't have that intermediary, you cannot be a Jedi or Sith. I can't blame people for getting annoyed about midichlorians.
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And exactly what kind of science did it bring? Please explain how Midichlorians change anything. They were introduced to show you cannot truly measure the Force.

And I can blame those people, for not paying attention.
 
I

Idle Storm

Member
I'm making a graphic of Poe, what do you all think of my progress so far? It's not nearly done but it's getting there.

This is the image im making the graphic from:
YYVv2uj.jpg


This is what I have so far:
RTFb7lo.jpg
 
D

Ding-Ding

Member
the black pearl said:
Yeah, I think Rey is more of a Mary Sue than Luke. And I'm knocking her for that. But she's better at tending to the Millennium Falcon than Han is.
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I cannot understand why some are using that Rey is better at fixing the Falcon than Han, as a reason for being a Mary Sue.

Is this the same Han who failed to notice the hyperdrive was damaged.
The same Han who had to be told that the negative power coupling had to be replaced.
Even when told about the latter, him and chewie still failed to fix the falcon

That was always one of the little jokes in Empire. A man that hated droids, was constantly being told what was wrong with the ship by C3PO.

So Rey fixing the Falcon better than Han is not a Mary Sue argument. She is just another person in a long list thats better than Han & Chewie at fixing things
 
B

bitizenbon

Banned
Why did those beasts in Han's ship immediately kill all those space bandits but dragged Finn along without killing him?

Is it because the actor was paid way more?
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
Ishida said:
And exactly what kind of science did it bring? Please explain how Midichlorians change anything. They were introduced to show you cannot truly measure the Force.

And I can blame those people, for not paying attention.
Click to expand...

You're right. Midichlorians changed nothing from a plot perspective. Which is all the evidence you need that it was a completely needless thing to introduce in the first place. All that needed to happen was Qui Gon rubbing his head and saying "Damn, I'm sensing this kid is strong as shit in the force" and no one would have questioned it. There's no reason for them to exist other than to explain something that didn't need explaining, or trying to introduce some kind of logic into how someone is "strong" in the force or whatever the intent was. It being utterly pointless only makes it stand out more.
 
I

Ishida

Banned
-griffy- said:
You're right. Midichlorians changed nothing from a plot perspective. Which is all the evidence you need that it was a completely needless thing to introduce in the first place. All that needed to happen was Qui Gon rubbing his head and saying "Damn, I'm sensing this kid is strong as shit in the force" and no one would have questioned it. There's no reason for them to exist other than to explain something that didn't need explaining, or trying to introduce some kind of logic into how someone is "strong" in the force or whatever the intent was. It being utterly pointless only makes it stand out more.
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Sure.

But tell that to the manchildren who scream about how midichlorians raped their childhood.
 
H

heliosRAzi

Banned
Ishida said:
And exactly what kind of science did it bring? Please explain how Midichlorians change anything. They were introduced to show you cannot truly measure the Force.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you also said that it was an overly scientific way of how life communicates with the Force. Science doesn't need to be brought in for it. It's supposed to remain mystical. People are supposed to have faith in it. Then bringing up midichlorians just takes away from the mystery of it. Instead of feeling the Force, we feel the translator bacteria inside of us. It's not as mystical. You don't hear Kung Fu Panda talking about how much Tengu he has in his cells that allows him to converse with the Chi. The Chi is just the Chi just as the Force should just be the Force.

And what the Giant Burning Face said.

Ishida said:
Sure.

But tell that to the manchildren who scream about how midichlorians raped their childhood.
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I think the manchildren understand that point already.
 
I

Ishida

Banned
heliosRAzi said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you also said that it was an overly scientific way of how life communicates with the Force. Science doesn't need to be brought in for it. It's supposed to remain mystical. People are supposed to have faith in it.

Then bringing up midichlorians just takes away from the mystery of it. Instead of feeling the Force, we feel the translator bacteria inside of us.

And what the Giant Burning Face said.


I think the manchildren understand that point already.
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Highly doubt it. Otherwise they wouldn't bitch as much for something as inconsequential.

And Midichlorians were as supernatural as supernatural gets.
 
T

Trigonometrize.

Member
Ishida said:
Highly doubt it. Otherwise they wouldn't bitch as much for something as inconsequential.

And Midichlorians were as supernatural as supernatural gets.
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I'd like to know the last time a reputable person said "the reading's off the charts" in regards to ghosts or anything traditionally supernatural.
 
S

StopMakingSense

Member
Daemul said:
Anakin was already too old when he came before the Council, it was why they were so reluctant to train him. He had too much of an attachment to his mother, something the Jedi do NOT want. They broke their own rules by allowing him to be trained and they came to pay the price for it.
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What I mean is that a lot would have just been written differently, including that. The whole "too old" thing just seemed really clunky, especially when you combine a) Jake Lloyd's extremely young appearance, and b) we have old man Yoda training adult Luke as the last Jedi training the audience had seen.

Trigonometrize. said:
I'd like to know the last time a reputable person said "the reading's off the charts" in regards to ghosts or anything traditionally supernatural.
Click to expand...

latest
 
Joel Was Right

Joel Was Right

Member
zsynqx said:
The prequels made people think that Jedis had to be trained from when they were babies at a school doing dumb stuff like this. Glad they just ignored that bullshit.

Training.jpg
Click to expand...

star-wars-birthday-party-games-lightsaber-training.jpg


Annakin appeared to be 8 years old. Yoda's criticism that he was too old to train would suggest that he should have begun at a similar age to children learning how to write or learn their ABCs. Considering that cognitive abilities seem to be the primary focus for training, it doesn't ridiculous at all that Jedi should begin that young.
 
S

StopMakingSense

Member
Meus Renaissance said:
star-wars-birthday-party-games-lightsaber-training.jpg


Annakin appeared to be 8 years old. Yoda's criticism that he was too old to train would suggest that he should have begun at a similar age to children learning how to write or learn their ABCs. Considering that cognitive abilities seem to be the primary focus for training, it doesn't ridiculous at all that Jedi should begin that young.
Click to expand...

I dunno, it gets all child soldier-y pretty quick.
 
I

Ishida

Banned
heliosRAzi said:
I can't handle all of this poetry!


Symbiotic lifeforms that live inside of all living cells. Really supernatural.
Click to expand...

Trigonometrize. said:
I'd like to know the last time a reputable person said "the reading's off the charts" in regards to ghosts or anything traditionally supernatural.
Click to expand...

Symbiotic life forms that communicate with an unexplained, supernatural energy field. Did you even pay attention?

Unless you would like to explain, in a scientific way, how they do that?
 
T

the black pearl

Member
Ding-Ding said:
I cannot understand why some are using that Rey is better at fixing the Falcon than Han, as a reason for being a Mary Sue.

Is this the same Han who failed to notice the hyperdrive was damaged.
The same Han who had to be told that the negative power coupling had to be replaced.
Even when told about the latter, him and chewie still failed to fix the falcon

That was always one of the little jokes in Empire. A man that hated droids, was constantly being told what was wrong with the ship by C3PO.

So Rey fixing the Falcon better than Han is not a Mary Sue argument. She is just another person in a long list thats better than Han & Chewie at fixing things
Click to expand...

I'm detached from whether she's actually a Mary Sue but the movie does stress that she has the tools to overcome any complication she faces, in a stronger and more multi faceted way than it did with Luke.

and not noticing something right away doesnt mean your a shitty mechanic, it could just mean that he wasnt paying attention. Han's not the best mechanic in the world, but the vibe I got from the scene is that she is an exceptionaly talented mechanic (because of the force or otherwise) and she does it in a ship (she's never been to space...or has she?) she's never been in before, under duress.

(Rey is basically every serenity crew member rolled up into one. This is a joke)
 
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