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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

nicoga3000

nicoga3000

Saint Nic
Ok - thought it may be her, but it also has very masculine features. I'm assuming compression is making it hard to disginush.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
heliosRAzi said:
I just find it hard to believe that a guy who has grown up with these troopers is willing to kill them without hesitation. There isn't a second thought or anything. Only psychopaths would do something like that. Finn's obviously not a psychopath, but I think him having some internal conflict about killing his what essentially amounts to his family would add to his character. I don't need him to be conflicted about it the entire movie. I just wanted something.

And before you go all space nazi on me, the troopers are all programmed from birth. They're not entirely willing participants. Finn is just like all of them up until his defection. He should be seeing himself in them. It could be a constant reminder of who he was. I think it'd be cool if his defection triggers something in the rest of the storm troopers.
Click to expand...

I had the same thought. One of the things that makes Finn defect is having a fellow trooper die right by him, and next thing you know, he's best friends with the guy who killed him (not that Finn knows that exactly, but they are killing FO folks together).
 
W

womp

Member
nicoga3000 said:
This was sent to me by someone with a pretty valid question:

Is this Rey? It doesn't really look like her, but it could just be compression. It's the last frame during the Knights of Ren flashback.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I saw this mentioned before...to me it simply just looks like a part of the transition effect from the dream state to reality again. I don't think it was anything else.
 
D

Donos

Member
Bluth54 said:
I would imagine that only a tiny part of the New Republic fleet was actually in orbit of the capital world, most of the fleet would be spread out in many other star systems.

Of course due to the chaos of the capital world being destroyed it's unlikely they were able to organize for an offensive against the starkiller base in time for the resistance attack.
Click to expand...

Jest Chillin said:
The fleet was pretty much in dry dock. The New Republic was at peace and their military force had been cut down by a significant amount.

Hosnian system being destroyed will functionally (but not necessarily completely) obliterate The New Republic. The majority of the Senate will have been destroyed as well as the majority, if not all, of their standing military force. That doesn't disolve the unity of the other planets in The Republic but it will take time to re-elect representatives and rebuild a respectable armada. This will no doubt be harried by The First Order though as while they lost their super weapon, they lost very little of their actual armada as far as we know.
Click to expand...

So would it have been a strech to put this what you said in 1-2 minute scenes so that it's clear. These 5 seconds we saw from the planet plus the content from the Hux speech is not really much to describe this.
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Ignatz Mouse said:
I had the same thought. One of the things that makes Finn defect is having a fellow trooper die right by him, and next thing you know, he's best friends with the guy who killed him (not that Finn knows that exactly, but they are killing FO folks together).
Click to expand...

He's best friend with the only guy who can help him run away and they go through nearly death together. Friend in need.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Johndoey said:
That still doesn't explain the total willingness to kill members of group he recently belonged to and looked exactly like.
Click to expand...

I'm really hoping that in the second movie the attempt to destroy or at least disrupt the Stormtrooper training program becomes a plot point. Like, if Finn at some point approaches Leia and says, "We have to stop them from doing this. They can't be allowed to do this!" that would both cover the problem with Finn's character for me (by showing that he does have empathy for them, he was just in dire straits), and it would be a chance to establish that the Republic/Resistance doesn't know the details about the program (which is something else that bothered me a little).
 
C

Calabi

Member
heliosRAzi said:
I just find it hard to believe that a guy who has grown up with these troopers is willing to kill them without hesitation. There isn't a second thought or anything. Only psychopaths would do something like that. Finn's obviously not a psychopath, but I think him having some internal conflict about killing his what essentially amounts to his family would add to his character. I don't need him to be conflicted about it the entire movie. I just wanted something.

And before you go all space nazi on me, the troopers are all programmed from birth. They're not entirely willing participants. Finn is just like all of them up until his defection. He should be seeing himself in them. It could be a constant reminder of who he was. I think it'd be cool if his defection triggers something in the rest of the storm troopers.

Something I noticed: Rey pretty much wore her white/beige clothing throughout the movie, but when she goes to visit Luke, she's wearing gray.
Click to expand...

Maybe he was only transferred to that division recently, maybe they bullied him, maybe he's never actually seen there face?

Even with all their technology, mind control, reprogramming its still bound to fail occasionally. But yeah he should have been at least a bit conflicted about shooting on his own.
 
H

heliosRAzi

Banned
Imperfected said:
I'm really hoping that in the second movie the attempt to destroy or at least disrupt the Stormtrooper training program becomes a plot point. Like, if Finn at some point approaches Leia and says, "We have to stop them from doing this. They can't be allowed to do this!" that would both cover the problem with Finn's character for me (by showing that he does have empathy for them, he was just in dire straits), and it would be a chance to establish that the Republic/Resistance doesn't know the details about the program (which is something else that bothered me a little).
Click to expand...

I'm hoping that Finn's defection inspires others troopers to do the same. The First Order not only has to deal with the light rising in a new Jedi, but also in the light of their shock troops.

Calabi said:
Maybe he was only transferred to that division recently, maybe they bullied him, maybe he's never actually seen there face?
Click to expand...

It'd be nice to see that, but the movie doesn't show it. No hints. No little personal touches. We don't have any backstory on him except that he's in sanitation and he was taken away from his family at birth. That's it.
 
J

Johndoey

Banned
Imperfected said:
I'm really hoping that in the second movie the attempt to destroy or at least disrupt the Stormtrooper training program becomes a plot point. Like, if Finn at some point approaches Leia and says, "We have to stop them from doing this. They can't be allowed to do this!" that would both cover the problem with Finn's character for me (by showing that he does have empathy for them, he was just in dire straits), and it would be a chance to establish that the Republic/Resistance doesn't know the details about the program (which is something else that bothered me a little).
Click to expand...
I love this idea. It would make total sense for Finn to focus on shutting down these training camps.
 
B

Boke1879

Member
Silphonica said:
disagree
Click to expand...

As time goes on and more movies come out. People who feel it's their mission to shit in the PT and feel they can tell anyone off for liking them will find themselves shouting at walls.

New SW fans are coming into the fold and their enthusiasm will start to take over. These are people who probably won't even put the OT on a pedestal that can't be touched.

Instead the majority will view SW as a whole
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Prof. Bathtub said:
Here is the description in the art book:

Says nothing about JJ or Disney. It actually praises the concise design philosophies in RotJ. If anything, the statement might be contrasting itself to busyness found in things like the Transformers movies, though perhaps not since that's also ILM. There may be a decision around more/less ship types, but look elsewhere for the exact rationale.
Click to expand...

It's probably referring to Attack of the Clones' intro space battle, or RotS, I forget which movie starts with that.
 
C

Calabi

Member
heliosRAzi said:
I'm hoping that Finn's defection inspires others troopers to do the same. The First Order not only has to deal with the light rising in a new Jedi, but also in the light of their shock troops.



It'd be nice to see that, but the movie doesn't show it. No hints. No little personal touches. We don't have any backstory on him except that he's in sanitation and he was taken away from his family at birth. That's it.
Click to expand...

Star Wars has always been kind of vague on character details though. You never got much on Han Solo, and Finn isnt the main character in The Force Awakens.
 
K

kharma45

Member
Has no one else noticed/got stupid miffed like me how in the new films they're turning on Anakin/Luke's lightsaber. Both Finn and Rey hold it near the top and ignite it with that red button at the top, whereas it should be power on down nearer the middle

maz-finn.jpg


latest
Click to expand...

There was also another shot that irked me as well, and this is just getting really pedantic but it stuck out like a sore thumb. When you first see Rey after she's escaped from Daniel Craig, the shot is mirrored. Easily noticeable with her holding the blaster in the opposite hand and the items on her belt swapping sides. Can't for the life of me figure out why it was flipped even after my third watch through.
 
T

televator

Member
Silphonica said:
While the CGI disconnected me from the movie a bit, I kind of enjoyed the film. I really don't get people just shitting all over them pt just because it doesnt live up to the ot.
Click to expand...

As stand alone movies removed from the OT, they're still terrible. In any context Jar-Jar, monotone robotic dialogue, heavy handed CG, boring political minutiae, and laughable and inconsistent character portrayals... It's still terrible all by itself.
 
G

Gamecocks625

Member
Silphonica said:
While the CGI disconnected me from the movie a bit, I kind of enjoyed the film. I really don't get people just shitting all over them pt just because it doesnt live up to the ot.
Click to expand...
I think a art of it is that we had like 25-30 years to imagine this background story and all of the incredible ways to tell that story. And then we're given the PT and are like...what, this is it? To many people the motivations are all wrong, choices, acting, directing, telling us things rather than showing them, answering questions we had no interest in being answered, all CGI, and on and on. Nothing seems believable (anakins story ark for one), characters that are annoying for all the wrong reasons.

They are average movies at best (not HORRIBLE) but because they didn't live up to this expectation that's been built over the years, they were a massive letdown. They lack the emotion and connection of the OT. TFA touches on that and that's why it's incredibly refreshing.
 
Pagusas

Pagusas

Elden Member
Boke1879 said:
As time goes on and more movies come out. People who feel it's their mission to shit in the PT and feel they can tell anyone off for liking them will find themselves shouting at walls.

New SW fans are coming into the fold and their enthusiasm will start to take over. These are people who probably won't even put the OT on a pedestal that can't be touched.

Instead the majority will view SW as a whole
Click to expand...

No, there is too much of a quality drop that occurres for people to ever look at the prequels as a quality part of the series. They will forever be known as "the bad Star Wars".
 
E

EGM1966

Member
Arthea said:
but you see that's the point, it's a movie not a book there is no time to explain everything in detail nor it's desirable, and a movie clearly shows us that of all the troopers only he doesn't want to kill peaceful people, no other trooper hesitates, he plans running away alone, what clearly shows there is nobody to run with either, they are fine were they are doing what they are doing. Granted, they are brainwashed probably or at least raised so from very tender age, but contemplating this wouldn't do much for Finn, he's fighting for his life and freedom.
Click to expand...
Actually if you're going to have something clearly unique, why Finn's brainwashing not work out of all the many Stormtroopers we've seen, you should have some element of explanation. That all of a sudden he reacts differently stands out as odd (they even take up screen time to have it questioned by his superiors).

The bottom line is TFA is a film that, while I enjoyed it, is overstuffed with too many characters and plot and it skips material that really should be there based on priority to the narrative. Which makes sense in that situation but it doesn't mean the achieved the best result just the best compromise.

Of course they may figure they'll return to this later but from what I've read it sounds like they shoved some form of explanation outside the film which isn't really on it terms of the film holding water on its own.

TFA is a great refresh to the franchise but as with most of JJ's films there are noticeable plot holes and yet again he has failed to fully work out the narrative and characters to feel fully water tight (which the best films do).

Myself I blame the whole repeat doomsday weapon narrative strand and wish it had been dropped entirely to allow more time to have a more cohesive narrative focused purely on the characters and the search for Luke.

Note in ANH in the crawl it's clear the Death Star is the quest, the stolen plans kick of the plot and it climaxes with the destruction of Death Star.

In TFA the quest is Luke himself, he's noted as such in the opening crawl and the clue to where he is kicks off the plot and the start. Then on the side they force in (pardon the pun) they "oh hey they've got another big sphere shaped weapon guess we better quickly find a way to blow it up" plot involving Starkiller base.
 
C

Calabi

Member
EGM1966 said:
Actually if you're going to have something clearly unique, why Finn's brainwashing not work out of all the many Stormtroopers we've seen, you should have some element of explanation. That all of a sudden he reacts differently stands out as odd (they even take up screen time to have it questioned by his superiors).

The bottom line is TFA is a film that, while I enjoyed it, is overstuffed with too many characters and plot and it skips material that really should be there based on priority to the narrative. Which makes sense in that situation but it doesn't mean the achieved the best result just the best compromise.

Of course they may figure they'll return to this later but from what I've read it sounds like they shoved some form of explanation outside the film which isn't really on it terms of the film holding water on its own.

TFA is a great refresh to the franchise but as with most of JJ's films there are noticeable plot holes and yet again he has failed to fully work out the narrative and characters to feel fully water tight (which the best films do).

Myself I blame the whole repeat doomsday weapon narrative strand and wish it had been dropped entirely to allow more time to have a more cohesive narrative focused purely on the characters and the search for Luke.

Note in ANH in the crawl it's clear the Death Star is the quest, the stolen plans kick of the plot and it climaxes with the destruction of Death Star.

In TFA the quest is Luke himself, he's noted as such in the opening crawl and the clue to where he is kicks off the plot and the start. Then on the side they force in (pardon the pun) they "oh hey they've got another big sphere shaped weapon guess we better quickly find a way to blow it up" plot involving Starkiller base.
Click to expand...

You can tell they tried to rectify this though. The got rid of Poe when he should have been flying the Millenium Falcon, and they obviously made Rey into the supposed Mary Sue that can do everything to compensate and to keep the focus and have more story telling for the two characters.
 
V

Vyer

Member
Finn killing other stormtroopers doesn't bother me. We don't really have any idea of the Stormtrooper training process, but I don't really feel that whatever they go through to make them mindless, order-following killing drones really would involve a lot of fraternizing and 'growing up together'. They don't even have names. I don't really see any reason they think of themselves as 'family'. They seem to be even more extreme and brainwashed than anything we have in real life history to compare to.

Which, not incidentally, is also why I like Finn's character. he may not be a Force user, but he's rare in that he is able to see their actions as wrong, and break free. Which seems pretty clearly to be a unique thing.
 
Z

Zabka

Member
Calabi said:
You can tell they tried to rectify this though. The got rid of Poe when he should have been flying the Millenium Falcon, and they obviously made Rey into the supposed Mary Sue that can do everything to compensate and to keep the focus and have more story telling for the two characters.
Click to expand...

There's nothing in the story that hints at that besides "Poe flies good". In fact he was supposed to have died in the escape. http://www.slashfilm.com/the-force-awakens-death/

I find the "She can't have a lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon!" complaint hilarious.
 
G

Grover Cleveland

Member
Pagusas said:
No, there is too much of a quality drop that occurres for people to ever look at the prequels as a quality part of the series. They will forever be known as "the bad Star Wars".
Click to expand...

I think it will be less about people retroactively coming into appreciate the prequels and more about less and less people actually caring about their quality at all.

There are now new Star Wars movies to appreciate and enjoy, less people will waste their time yelling about whatever deficiencies the last three had.
 
Davey Cakes

Davey Cakes

Member
kharma45 said:
Has no one else noticed/got stupid miffed like me how in the new films they're turning on Anakin/Luke's lightsaber. Both Finn and Rey hold it near the top and ignite it with that red button at the top, whereas it should be power on down nearer the middle.
Click to expand...
Is there really some canon explanation of how lightsabers can be turned on?

I have a replica lightsaber and it's unclear what the red button should actually be for. My hands aren't that big and I can reach the red button and the actual "on button" at the same time. Maybe you have to press both, like a safety.

Seems like something nitpicky.

As for the mirrored shot, I didn't even notice. Interesting? But if I didn't notice it then I imagine most people didn't either. The filmmakers took that into consideration. I do wonder why it was necessary though.

Anyway, I was thinking about this movie again and after a re-watch, I'm convinced that the characters are THE reason why this movie works. Other than Snoke and maybe Leia, every major character in this movie is well done.

The character writing and acting is super high quality for what could basically be a summer blockbuster.
 
D

Dubbedinenglish

Banned
EGM1966 said:
Actually if you're going to have something clearly unique, why Finn's brainwashing not work out of all the many Stormtroopers we've seen, you should have some element of explanation. That all of a sudden he reacts differently stands out as odd (they even take up screen time to have it questioned by his superiors).

The bottom line is TFA is a film that, while I enjoyed it, is overstuffed with too many characters and plot and it skips material that really should be there based on priority to the narrative. Which makes sense in that situation but it doesn't mean the achieved the best result just the best compromise.

Of course they may figure they'll return to this later but from what I've read it sounds like they shoved some form of explanation outside the film which isn't really on it terms of the film holding water on its own.

TFA is a great refresh to the franchise but as with most of JJ's films there are noticeable plot holes and yet again he has failed to fully work out the narrative and characters to feel fully water tight (which the best films do).

Myself I blame the whole repeat doomsday weapon narrative strand and wish it had been dropped entirely to allow more time to have a more cohesive narrative focused purely on the characters and the search for Luke.

Note in ANH in the crawl it's clear the Death Star is the quest, the stolen plans kick of the plot and it climaxes with the destruction of Death Star.

In TFA the quest is Luke himself, he's noted as such in the opening crawl and the clue to where he is kicks off the plot and the start. Then on the side they force in (pardon the pun) they "oh hey they've got another big sphere shaped weapon guess we better quickly find a way to blow it up" plot involving Starkiller base.
Click to expand...

Well put. This is my main issue as well with the new DS mkIII

Zabka said:
There's nothing in the story that hints at that besides "Poe flies good". In fact he was supposed to have died in the escape. http://www.slashfilm.com/the-force-awakens-death/

I find the "She can't have a lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon!" complaint hilarious.
Click to expand...

Opening scrawl says he is the Resistance's top pilot, Kylo even acknowledges that in the interrogation.
 
H

heliosRAzi

Banned
Vyer said:
Finn killing other stormtroopers doesn't bother me. We don't really have any idea of the Stormtrooper training process, but I don't really feel that whatever they go through to make them mindless, order-following killing drones really would involve a lot of fraternizing and 'growing up together'. They don't even have names. I don't really see any reason they think of themselves as 'family'. They seem to be even more extreme and brainwashed than anything we have in real life history to compare to.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this, but Finn doesn't start his awakening until his friend/mate/whatever dies beside him. He obviously cares about them for that one moment. Then it's gone.
 
Braag

Braag

Member
Nostremitus said:
Looks like Starkiller form The Force Unleashed...


He's probably
not
Rey's dad.
Click to expand...

Very unlikely that Galen Marek would be her father. I don't think the Force Unleashed games are canon and Starkiller was way too OP anyway, pulling down a star destroyer from the sky with the force and whatnot.
 
V

Vyer

Member
heliosRAzi said:
I would agree with this, but Finn doesn't start his awakening until his friend/mate/whatever dies beside him. He obviously cares about them for that one moment. Then it's gone.
Click to expand...

Didn't he say that was his first mission? I don't recall but it seems like I remember that. In any case, seeing someone die next to you can have an impact even if you don't really know much about them. And I think 'hey, slaughter all these people' in that scene is what had the biggest impact.
 
Z

Zabka

Member
Dubbedinenglish said:
Opening scrawl says he is the Resistance's top pilot, Kylo even acknowledges that in the interrogation.
Click to expand...
Why does that mean he was supposed to fly the Falcon? He's already got a sweet new generation X-Wing with a custom paint job. Why would you saddle your top pilot with a cargo freighter?
 
N

Nostremitus

Member
Braag said:
Very unlikely that Galen Marek would be her father. I don't think the Force Unleashed games are canon and Starkiller was way too OP anyway, pulling down a star destroyer from the sky with the force and whatnot.
Click to expand...
It was official canon before the retcon, it wasn't even considered EU canon. George helped write it. When it came out it was sold as the official canon of the events that took place during the creation of the rebellion.
 
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