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[Tommi84]

Come on, 70% of russians doesn't even have electricity or paved roads. They no need no stinking processors! They need vodka

 

[winjer]

Yes we can go as far a back in history to pick every head of state from every country to find countless of atrocities. The US for example is the only country to have used nuclear weapons to bomb civilians. Noice *clacks tongue*

Correct, the use of nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, was one of the biggest war crimes of WW2.
But might I remind you that top military officials in the US army were against the use of nuclear weapons in japing. This included Douglas MacArthur and Eisenhower. So it was not as clear cut as just saying the US is evil, because they used nuclear bombs.
Also remember that nuclear weapons in WW2 were much smaller in destruction that current ones. The fire bombings of Tokyo killed more people than any one of the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

No I'm talking about the ones relevant in the 21st century with modern warfare. Also it's funny you bring up Bush because as bad as he was, Barack "Drone Strikes" Obama was even worse. F's in the chat.

Why cut off in the XXI century. There are still people alive who lived through the USSR days. And even the WW2 era.
Why ignore WW1, being the most important event of the XX century. One that gave way to WW2, the communist rise, the Cold War, that marked the end of several European Empires, the start of the decolonization process, the woman's suffrage, the use of tanks and airplanes in war, the rise of democracy in many countries, and just look at how many countries celebrate their creation in 1917-1918. Including the Ukraine.

If we cut off at the XXI century, we´ll have to ignore how the US government killed and oppressed native Americans for almost 3 centuries.

Yes, there were more drone attacks under Obama than during Bush. And might I remind you that the deaths caused by drones pale in comparison against the deaths by traditional artillery and air bombings.
But consider who started the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, was Bush Jr. Even his own father advised him against invading Iraq.

 

[Tams]

I think this sort of thing hurts citizens more than it does the rulers. If Russia wanted it bad enough they could import it from nearby allied countries. It has an impact but usually doesn't stop what was intended. It just makes it worse for those living there.

That's part of the point.

Russian citizens ultimately have to get fed up with being trodden on and become a threat to the regime. It has to come internally.

 

[VN1X]

Correct, the use of nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, was one of the biggest war crimes of WW2.
But might I remind you that top military officials in the US army were against the use of nuclear weapons in japing. This included Douglas MacArthur and Eisenhower. So it was not as clear cut as just saying the US is evil, because they used nuclear bombs.
Also remember that nuclear weapons in WW2 were much smaller in destruction that current ones. The fire bombings of Tokyo killed more people than any one of the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.



Why cut off in the XXI century. There are still people alive who lived through the USSR days. And even the WW2 era.
Why ignore WW1, being the most important event of the XX century. One that gave way to WW2, the communist rise, the Cold War, that marked the end of several European Empires, the start of the decolonization process, the woman's suffrage, the use of tanks and airplanes in war, the rise of democracy in many countries, and just look at how many countries celebrate their creation in 1917-1918. Including the Ukraine.

Yes, there were more drone attacks under Obama than during Bush. But consider who started the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And might I remind you that the deaths caused by drones pale in comparison against the deaths by traditional artillery and air bombings.

I use the 21st century as an example because the current conflict takes place in it. You can go as far as back in history as you want and constantly cherry pick examples that help your argument and prove how evil certain empires were in the past. Your firebombing example doesn't make the US look any better or help your argument btw (on the contrary).

You have a country that we've been conditioned to believe are the good guys (and 99% of the people are) yet they've been bombing away over the past years leading to direct civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Somalia and Syria just to name a few (and these are just the ones reported on). In 2016 alone the US, under Obama, averaged about three bombs every hour. Why are we not advocating for the US "to be sent back to the digital stone age"? as some posters have suggested in relation to Russia & Belarus in a previous post. It's not all as black & white as you some of you make it out to be, which in turn trivializes this entire situation.

Anyway, I'll gladly receive numbers and data regarding how Russia has caused countless of civilian casualties in the past 22 years though because I'm not advocating for Russia. I am merely saying that people need to find some perspective and stop demonizing entire peoples on the basis of a, at best, poor understanding of the conflict.

 

[Bonfires Down]

As a former AMAT engineer I take offense at the suggestion that it is all litho. Litho tools are the most expensive but they can pattern many, most layers. The real science is in the materials and their processing, not the photons. New transistor and interconnect materials are required to make devices at the scale EUV can pattern.

Can Russia/China produce the chips without the west, or they can’t?

 

[winjer]

I use the 21st century as an example because the current conflict takes place in it. You can go as far as back in history as you want and constantly cherry pick examples that help your argument and prove how evil certain empires were in the past. Your firebombing example doesn't make the US look any better or help your argument btw (on the contrary).

You have a country that we've been conditioned to believe are the good guys (and 99% of the people are) yet they've been bombing away over the past years leading to direct civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Somalia and Syria just to name a few (and these are just the ones reported on). In 2016 alone the US, under Obama, averaged about three bombs every hour. Why are we not advocating for the US "to be sent back to the digital stone age"? as some posters have suggested in relation to Russia & Belarus in a previous post. It's not all as black & white as you some of you make it out to be which trivializes this entire situation.

Anyway, I'll gladly receive numbers and data regarding how Russia has caused countless of civilian casualties in the past 22 years though because I'm not advocating for Russia. I am merely saying that people need to find some perspective and stop demonizing entire peoples on the basis of a, at best, poor understanding of the conflict.

Mate, the Ukrainian question goes back to at least 1917, when the area seceded from the the Russian empire, and created it's own country.
The whole reason Putin claims the the Ukraine is a western creation is because of this event. And then there is the whole story of the Ukraine under USSR rule. And it's ceseding from the USSR.
Even Putin takes great inspiration from Alexander III, a man who thoroughly oppressed the Ukrainian people.
You can't just cut off at the XXI century and claim there were no crimes to compare.

Mind you, I´m not saying that the USA are the good guys of the XX century. We all know they did a great deal of evil.

 

[kittoo]

Going to be fascinating watching Russian society absolutely collapse in a few years when stuff like industrial control systems stop running because they don't have spare PLCs etc. I guess their one hope is that China (SMIC) manages to make a semiconductor supply line completely independent on Western suppliers like ASML, Applied Materials, Lam and such.

Sometimes I wonder if western society hyped in a frenzy about 'defeating' Russia even thinks things through.
Do you think Russia will allow the 'absolute' collapse of its society without any effect on the rest of the world? So many points to consider here-

• Russia is not without allies- As much as the anglosphere thinks the world revolves around them (and they are right to some extent I suppose), its not 1990. More than half the population of the world (China+India alone are like >30%) is either neutral or supports Russia, so does Around 40% of the wold economy. They, especially China, will supply Russia almost whatever it needs (though wont be able to supply everything, agreed) so the collapse isn't coming anytime soon.
• These are hardy people, who have far more appetite for enduring suffering (so are the Ukrainians, and they have shown it on the battlefield). Anyone expecting crumbling due to sanctions is discounting this fact. Even if it does happen, it will take a long long time.
• But the biggest point in these fantasies about Russia collapse is this- would Russia not take down whole west with it, if the situation neared collapse? What will they have to lose? Is the west willing to have nukes on Rome, London, Paris, NY? Is that a price they are willing to pay?

My general sense as an outsider is that the western media and populace is too whipped about this to see it properly. Maybe before dreaming about absolute Russian collapse, one should realize that not only this is not what whole world is dreaming of (and nor does the whole world sees this conflict to be as black and white as the west), but it will come at an absolutely unimaginable cost. This is for the long haul. Going by the attitudes of both Russia and US, this is going to be a very long game and we dont know what will happen at the end of it. As a person living in a developing country, I only hope it doesnt affect us too much. We got no dog in this fight.

 

[VN1X]

Mate, the Ukrainian question goes back to at least 1917, when the area seceded from the the Russian empire, and created it's own country.
The whole reason Putin claims the the Ukraine is a western creation is because of this event. And then there is the whole story of the Ukraine under USSR rule. And it's ceseding from the USSR.
Even Putin takes great inspiration from Alexander III, a man who thoroughly oppressed the Ukrainian people.
You can't just cut off at the XXI century and claim there were no crimes to compare.

Mind you, I´m not saying that the USA are the good guys of the XX century. We all know they did a great deal of evil.

If you want to go that far back then you might as well also bring up the treaties that have been broken time and time again, by the west, regarding that region.

Anyway as I've said before I'm not trying to get you into a corner nor am I arguing in bad faith. If there's genuine examples of military actions against civilians in recent history (namely the 21st century) by Russia in comparison to the US (not even talking about their respective allies) then I'll gladly see those.

 

[lostinblue]

"USA have done many wars and many crimes but" sounds like you're trivializing what's actually happened over the past 20 years in the middle east.

I'm going to need some hard numbers and sources for the "pale in comparison as to what Russia has done" statement you've made in relation to events and wars in the 21st century. I'll gladly eat crow mind you, not trying to get you into a "gotcha" debate.

America has done a lot of war crimes, but they don't willingly engage in the magnitude of war crimes that Russia does starting from the government/military higher ups. The closest they came to ignoring the code of conduct in recent times was when they did the drone bombing in Iran under Trump, the other time was when they invaded Iraq based on a false pretence. It wasn't pretty and they should have gotten sanctions for that as they crossed the line. But genocide is another step too far.

Aside from that, there's a lot of abuse due to lack of consequence/reporting, wrong orders, downright evil people and such, but it's "small" against the magnitude that russia is willing to do. Not to say that what America does is justifiable, it isn't but they think they're honourable so it has a bit of weight on them in the stuff that they won't do.

That said, when war is out of Europe and America we don't seem to care, so both USA and Russia can get away with a lot more in Africa than they do elsewhere. Places like Syria crossed these moral lines tenfold, and no one talked about that aside from some footnotes here and there; I suspect it was also worse than Ukraine because the reporting was lower (see Russia is now trying to cover up killings, which they never did before, I think that changed things happening in the war, for instance the Azov peloton would never be transferred alive to anywhere). Syria had ridiculous amounts of destruction and some of the war criminals who acted there are responsible for the same kind of shit in Ukraine.

 

[winjer]

• Russia is not without allies- As much as the anglosphere thinks the world revolves around them (and they are right to some extent I suppose), its not 1990. More than half the population of the world (China+India alone are like >30%) is either neutral or supports Russia, so does Around 40% of the wold economy. They, especially China, will supply Russia almost whatever it needs (though wont be able to supply everything, agreed) so the collapse isn't coming anytime soon.

LOL. You think China is Russia´s ally? Sorry to burst your bubble, but China couldn't care less about Russia.
They abstained in the UN vote to condemn the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. They are not sending weapons to Russia, like the EU and USA are doing to the Ukraine.
Have you seen any Chinese tank, airplane, missile in the hands of the Russian army?

China is just using Russia to it's own advantage. Like reverse engineering it's airplanes, tanks, and military equipment. China as gotten so good, that at this point they only buy Russian jet engines, as it's the only thing that China still can't do better.
China is taking advantage of Russia to buy some cheap gas and oil.
And there is a good chance that China will start to lend Russia money, creating a debt trap. There is a good probability that in a decade, China will own all that is worth owning in Russia, from it's natural resources, to the biggest companies.

 

[Pedro Motta]

Feel sorry for all the anti-war people that live there.

 

[winjer]

If there's genuine examples of military actions against civilians in recent history (namely the 21st century) by Russia in comparison to the US (not even talking about their respective allies) then I'll gladly see those.

Invasion of Ukraine, Georgia and Chechnya. And also the military intervention in Lybia.
Thought, being honest, these are significantly smaller in scale when compared to the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, by the US.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Time to dust off those Electronic BK-0010s, comrades.

 

[Tams]

Sometimes I wonder if western society hyped in a frenzy about 'defeating' Russia even thinks things through.
Do you think Russia will allow the 'absolute' collapse of its society without any effect on the rest of the world? So many points to consider here-

• Russia is not without allies- As much as the anglosphere thinks the world revolves around them (and they are right to some extent I suppose), its not 1990. More than half the population of the world (China+India alone are like >30%) is either neutral or supports Russia, so does Around 40% of the wold economy. They, especially China, will supply Russia almost whatever it needs (though wont be able to supply everything, agreed) so the collapse isn't coming anytime soon.
• These are hardy people, who have far more appetite for enduring suffering (so are the Ukrainians, and they have shown it on the battlefield). Anyone expecting crumbling due to sanctions is discounting this fact. Even if it does happen, it will take a long long time.
• But the biggest point in these fantasies about Russia collapse is this- would Russia not take down whole west with it, if the situation neared collapse? What will they have to lose? Is the west willing to have nukes on Rome, London, Paris, NY? Is that a price they are willing to pay?

My general sense as an outsider is that the western media and populace is too whipped about this to see it properly. Maybe before dreaming about absolute Russian collapse, one should realize that not only this is not what whole world is dreaming of (and nor does the whole world sees this conflict to be as black and white as the west), but it will come at an absolutely unimaginable cost. This is for the long haul. Going by the attitudes of both Russia and US, this is going to be a very long game and we dont know what will happen at the end of it. As a person living in a developing country, I only hope it doesnt affect us too much. We got no dog in this fight.

This is the shittiest and most selfish of attitudes.

I won't go any further as I don't want to be banned.

 

[bbeach123]

LOL. You think China is Russia´s ally? Sorry to burst your bubble, but China couldn't care less about Russia.
They abstained in the UN vote to condemn the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. They are not sending weapons to Russia, like the EU and USA are doing to the Ukraine.
Have you seen any Chinese tank, airplane, missile in the hands of the Russian army?

China is just using Russia to it's own advantage. Like reverse engineering it's airplanes, tanks, and military equipment. China as gotten so good, that at this point they only buy Russian jet engines, as it's the only thing that China still can't do better.
China is taking advantage of Russia to buy some cheap gas and oil.
And there is a good chance that China will start to lend Russia money, creating a debt trap. There is a good probability that in a decade, China will own all that is worth owning in Russia, from it's natural resources, to the biggest companies.

China will absolutely stopping Russia from collapse at any cost . They knew they're next after Russia . Yes they're not "real allied" but enemy of my enemy is still my friend.

Supporting weapons to Russian no (and I dont think the russians need to) . But they can totally help to stabilize the economy of Russia .

 

[kittoo]

LOL. You think China is Russia´s ally? Sorry to burst your bubble, but China couldn't care less about Russia.
They abstained in the UN vote to condemn the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. They are not sending weapons to Russia, like the EU and USA are doing to the Ukraine.
Have you seen any Chinese tank, airplane, missile in the hands of the Russian army?

China is just using Russia to it's own advantage. Like reverse engineering it's airplanes, tanks, and military equipment. China as gotten so good, that at this point they only buy Russian jet engines, as it's the only thing that China still can't do better.
China is taking advantage of Russia to buy some cheap gas and oil.
And there is a good chance that China will start to lend Russia money, creating a debt trap. There is a good probability that in a decade, China will own all that is worth owning in Russia, from it's natural resources, to the biggest companies.

Agreed. I never claimed China has some benevolence towards Russia. Its all business, like all countries do. In fact, I do think Russia will be China's lackey in the years to come. Russia knows this too I am sure, but has no other option. As I said, China is the biggest beneficiary in all this. They gain a huge powerful ally without doing anything. They have their eyes trained on US supremacy, and will gladly have Russia on their side. Thats why in long term this seems a US foreign policy blunder to me.

 

[kyliethicc]

No Knack 3 for them then

 

[Wildebeest]

China will absolutely stopping Russia from collapse at any cost . They knew they're next after Russia . Yes they're not "real allied" but enemy of my enemy is still my friend.

Supporting weapons to Russian no (and I dont think the russians need to) . But they can totally help to stabilize the economy of Russia .

If you say that China will "be next" after Russia then I suspect you might be right. But that "be next" is more likely them launching a military campaign to reclaim historical territory, which, in this case, happens to be the far east provinces of Russia. Likely to go much better than Russia's "special operation" as well because it will be against a failing Russian state.

 

[winjer]

China will absolutely stopping Russia from collapse at any cost . They knew they're next after Russia . Yes they're not "real allied" but enemy of my enemy is still my friend.

Supporting weapons to Russian no (and I dont think the russians need to) . But they can totally help to stabilize the economy of Russia .

Quite the opposite, China wants the Russian economy to collapse, so they can force all kinds of one sided deals.
The more desperate Russia becomes for China's money, the cheaper it will be to buy Russian gas and oil fields, the rare earth mineral deposits, companies, roads, etc.
Just look at the Belt and Road initiative in Arica, to get a good image of what is probable to happen to Russia.

 

[MightySquirrel]

Makes you wonder whats the going rate for low tier bot work these days?

 

[MightySquirrel]

Can Russia/China produce the chips without the west, or they can’t?

They can but not remotely nearly as productive though.

 

[WitchHunter]

Taiwan Restricts Russia, Belarus to CPUs Under 25 MHz Frequency​

For Russians, getting a new console, a new GPU, CPU, etc, just became much harder. Maybe through some shady import market, like during the Soviet Union.
Probably no RTX 4000, or Zen4, RX 7000, Intel 13th gen CPUs, Arch GPUS, Iphones, etc....

This is all about China. They are testing them big time : DDD.

 

[old-parts]

Russian government has already altered its import controls to basically allow the imports of goods unofficially, so such a hardware ban is almost impossible to enforce on common goods sold to many countries around the world, many of whom will pass the goods onto Russian markets.

What will hit them is very niche specialist semi-conductors sold in markets for as industrial, medical and military use.

It's good news for open source hardware and software as now everyone's realised how the west tech industry will do anything the US governments demands even with out laws being passed. This is why China has announced a multi-year plan to replace x86 windows with domestic RISC-V designs and Linux software in government institutions.

Sanctions can sometimes have the opposite effect and stimulate internal development of domestic technology.

 

[skneogaf]

I'd like to see digital foundry do a video on gaming using a 25 MHz cpu and a 3090ti

 

[lostinblue]

I'd like to see digital foundry do a video on gaming using a 25 MHz cpu and a 3090ti

"MIRACLE PORT"

They didn't say how many cores and whether boost clocks can be used or not

 

[Captain Toad]

I'm all for this. Yeah it sucks to inconvenience all Russian citizens whether they condone overtaking other countries or not, we can't just be business as usual while their country is on a reign of terror.

 

[Majormaxxx]

In a time of war, the news coming from BOTH sides should be considered propaganda.

 

[jufonuk]

Should run doom.

 

[Skifi28]

Time for heavy optimization, you can do it!

 

[Vognerful]

I thought politics are banned in GAF

 

[JohnSpartanLee]

Up to 25MHz is not too shabby - that's good enough for fullspeed Monkey Island 2, Ultima VII and Wing Commander 2.

 

[SlimySnake]

There is a switch joke here but i wont make it due to fear of getting banned.

 

[Calling 911 Melts Beams]

fun fact the nanomachine killbots in the covid21 vaccine run at only 24 mhz

 

[kiphalfton]

Russian cities within the next couple years, after citizens get tired of being deprived basic goods/etc:

 

[Salty Popsicle]

China will absolutely stopping Russia from collapse at any cost . They knew they're next after Russia . Yes they're not "real allied" but enemy of my enemy is still my friend.

Supporting weapons to Russian no (and I dont think the russians need to) . But they can totally help to stabilize the economy of Russia .

They can, but it has been 3 months and they have yet to do anything to prop up the Russian economy. In fact, just recently China made most of Russia's commercial airplanes prohibited from entering Chinese airspace as they consider them stolen after Russia decided they can keep all the Boeing and Airbus planes that were leased from the West. If anything, China would allow Russia to collapse economically just so they can come in later and make them completely dependent. A satellite state for all intents and purposes.

 

[SpokkX]

A 386 25mhz can still run some amazing games

sierra online is about to do a comeback in russia

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Russians become retro gamers lol.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

If it still works, I'll see if any Russians want to buy my family's old 386DX/33. +8 mhz bonus.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

A 386 25mhz can still run some amazing games

sierra online is about to do a comeback in russia

Windows 3.1 usage about to increase.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

They'll probably buy those Chinese SMIC chips that perform like crap, and/or they'll have China reselling them higher-end chips at a premium.

 

[VAVA Mk2]

That's gonna be bad for porn

 

[Halo is Back]

Yes because the entire world banned USA and Israel all the times they committed atrocities against their "enemies". There's no "good and bad" guys here, just a bunch of old hags shaping your future.

One country invading another without provocation and killing unarmed civilians are most definitely the "bad guys" and no amount of your but but but America whataboutism is going to change that.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Of course this hurts the common folk the most. But hey, maybe that makes them start to question and oppose the govt propaganda or think about leaving that shithole and start a new life somewhere else.

 

[Craig of War]

Should this be in the Off Topic section

 

[Dream-Knife]

Correct, the use of nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, was one of the biggest war crimes of WW2.
But might I remind you that top military officials in the US army were against the use of nuclear weapons in japing. This included Douglas MacArthur and Eisenhower. So it was not as clear cut as just saying the US is evil, because they used nuclear bombs.
Also remember that nuclear weapons in WW2 were much smaller in destruction that current ones. The fire bombings of Tokyo killed more people than any one of the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Yep. We also did it because it didn't look like Japan was going to give up and we would have lost a ton of guys taking it.

Japan got out alright though. Had we invaded it conventionally, we would have needed Soviet help. Japan would have never developed like it has today being split.

 

[winjer]

Yep. We also did it because it didn't look like Japan was going to give up and we would have lost a ton of guys taking it.

Japan got out alright though. Had we invaded it conventionally, we would have needed Soviet help. Japan would have never developed like it has today being split.

After Japan got bombed they considered that creating nuclear weapons was so difficult, that the US could only make a couple of them, and it would take many months to make more. So they considered that time was on their side, in the negotiations.
The issue that truly prevented the surrender of Japan, was that the US wanted to court marshal Hirohito, and institute a Presidential Democracy. But the Javanese government could not accept that.
Only after the US accepted not to prosecute the Emperor and retain the monarchy, did Japan accept surrender. It also helped a lot, that Russia declared war on August 8th.
Japan could accept a surrender to a democratic, capitalistic country like the USA. But not to the Soviet Union.
Remember that Japan had surrendered to Commodore Perry a century ago, opening up Japan to US merchants. So this idea that Japan would have fought to the last man is an error.
But using the nuclear weapons was a bigger error, and one of the biggest crimes against humanity of WW2. And this crime sits mostly on Truman.

 

[Majormaxxx]

Up to 25MHz is not too shabby - that's good enough for fullspeed Monkey Island 2, Ultima VII and Wing Commander 2.

I had a 25mhz ibm 386 SLC and it could even run doom (not full screen).

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

Sorry Putin, I will be unable to gift you my 486 DX4 120Mhz.
Too bad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Ironbunny]

1990 pc's were great. Congrats ruZZia.

 

[DeepEnigma]

That'll show'em.

Now, how about those concentration camps in China?