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The new DND Player's Handbook is out. I have thoughts

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
My background with DND, so you can see my biases:

I first started playing when 3.0 came out. Skipped 3.5 because it seemed like an incremental change and because I was a poor kid that didn't want to buy new books. The new rules seemed clean though. Didn't play again until 5.0 came out and I bought the starter box. I have the most experience with 5. Had some minor gripes with it, but was mostly happy until Tasha's Cauldron came out and they started fucking with what made DND great.

Anyway, I approached this new edition apprehensively but still was eager to pick up the new PH. I'm still going through it to find out what is different, but have reviewed the whole book already. I'm still processing the changes. Fundementally the game isn't that different from 5e, though there are changes to things such as Heroic Inspiration. Most of the changes are to how classes, backgrounds and species work.

Pros:
Starting with what I like about the book, the organization is phenominal if I'm being honest. The entire mechanics rules are front loaded into the first 30 or so pages, so you don't have to go throughout the entire rule book looking for how to ritually cast a spell and what a stealth check. Even better, there are tons of intext examples of what DND play actually flows like through examples, with notation markers describing in detail what is happening. It feels like one of the most organic ways to teach people who to play DND.

After that is an indepth look at the character creation process, and it is VERY detailed. I love it. They've changed the way character creation goes now: Before it was Race > Class > Background. Now its Class > Background > Species (the new term for race). They even given different uses of the Standard Array for each class, which is kinda cool.

Overall, this book is an editing and layout masterpiece. The layouts are the cleanest they've ever ever been. I especially love the changes to the equipment section. It goes SUPER indepth. Another cool feature is that each Class gets its own Full Page Artwork at the beginning of the section, really highlighting and making the class look cool (in most cases). Class spell lists are inside the section for each class now, by the way!!

There is a rules glossary at the end of the book as well, which seems super helpful.

Cons:
The artwork used in the book is a mixed bag. Some of it is nice, but a lot of it doesn't really "feel" DND to me. In previous editions, you could clearly tell which each character was supposed to be (where its an elf ranger or a orc barbarian). A lot of it feels just loud and generic fantasy art, which is a shame. There are some pieces that are kinda ugly too.

There is a lack of flavor through the book. The most notable section is the Species section. Previous editions would go into detail on each race's descriptions, outlooks and cultures. Now you get basically a halfpage for each race, giving only the barest of bone picture of each race...er species. Species traits are still a thing, but only just barely. Subraces are flavor only for the most part. They don't even have a section for deities / pantheons. You'd think that would be important for clerics and paladins.

It's just kind of a same, because flavor is what makes DND DND. Without it, you just have math. Hopefully the DMG will have more world flavor stuff, but I somehow doubt it. We'll see.

Also - weirdly enough, the book doesn't have a copy of a character sheet you can scan and use. Not the biggest loss, since you can just download a free PDF, but still sad to see. From the diagramed up example they have in the book the new official sheet is quite thoughtfully organized and executed.

Also they got rid of Appendix E - Inspirational Reading, which is something I've always enjoyed. In the DND adventures I've published, I've put it there myself.
 
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Cyberpunkd

Member
The only thing I learned about DND was always to avoid saying things like "ok, roll 2D6 for initiative" and instead try to put it in the story narrative-wise. With that it's sad to hear they dialed back on the flavor text.
 

LordCBH

Member
My group has moved on to Pathfinder 2E. We’ve been really enjoying it and have really been digging how PF2E handles the action economy.

This new DND is basically just a 5.5E from what I remember. 5e was pretty fun, but got stale for us
 

nkarafo

Member
Isn't it completely ruined by current day politics? Like every change they did the last 5 years or so has been strictly for making it more politically correct?
 

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
Isn't it completely ruined by current day politics? Like every change they did the last 5 years or so has been strictly for making it more politically correct?
They actually walked back a change I hated from Tashas Guide, where players can pick and choose which ability score increases they wanted.

Those to me represented factors beyond the characters control. In the new edition theyre tied to Backgrounds instead of Species, which okay fine. Ill take that compromise.
 

DKehoe

Member
Isn't it completely ruined by current day politics? Like every change they did the last 5 years or so has been strictly for making it more politically correct?
They've made lots of changes with this new version that aren't anything to do with political correctness. It's just people who are fixated on the culture war wanting everything to be about that. Wild Shape now being a bonus action doesn't have anything to do with being politically correct. Warlock subclasses now being at level 3 isn't due to political correctness. It's mechanical stuff.

Plenty of things people can criticise WOTC for without needing to go down the culture war route. Just a couple days ago they had to be pressured into not dropping 5E/2014 support for DNDBeyond.
 

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
They've made lots of changes with this new version that aren't anything to do with political correctness. It's just people who are fixated on the culture war wanting everything to be about that. Wild Shape now being a bonus action doesn't have anything to do with being politically correct. Warlock subclasses now being at level 3 isn't due to political correctness. It's mechanical stuff.

Plenty of things people can criticise WOTC for without needing to go down the culture war route. Just a couple days ago they had to be pressured into not dropping 5E/2014 support for DNDBeyond.
Big fan of potions being a bonus action now too. I'm still digesting a lot of the class changes, but in all honesty they seem mostly for the better.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
I dropped off DnD 5e about where you did, OP, when it became increasingly clear the drive of the game was on "DnD as therapy" story heavy, player as the character, type stuff rather than having discrete, well thought out mechanics that deliver on specific capabilities for characters that preserve a certain flavor, and that flavor varies based on SETTING, not inherent into a generic, bland, rule set. Plus they set out to create stories that don't fit what I or my group wants to play. So if I'm doing all the creation work then I can find a rules set that is cheaper to buy into or fits my play style better. Been sending all my 5e books to my niece instead.

Like any big dog, there are plenty of little dogs to attack it so I've just moved on from WOTC entirely.
 

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
I dropped off DnD 5e about where you did, OP, when it became increasingly clear the drive of the game was on "DnD as therapy" story heavy, player as the character, type stuff rather than having discrete, well thought out mechanics that deliver on specific capabilities for characters that preserve a certain flavor, and that flavor varies based on SETTING, not inherent into a generic, bland, rule set. Plus they set out to create stories that don't fit what I or my group wants to play. So if I'm doing all the creation work then I can find a rules set that is cheaper to buy into or fits my play style better. Been sending all my 5e books to my niece instead.

Like any big dog, there are plenty of little dogs to attack it so I've just moved on from WOTC entirely.

Yeah that is kind of my problem too. I blame the crowd that Real Plays brought in. It was a boon and a curse. That and newcomer DND influences like Ginny Di being loud and acting like they're representatives of all DND players, when their style of play is just one type.

That said, I don't want to be wholly negative. This is a problem with all things when they break into the mainstream. They lose all subversiveness when the edges are sanded off to appeal to as many people as possible in order to be "safe". We've seen this before with 2E. Maybe the pendulum will swing back in the future?
 

DKehoe

Member
Big fan of potions being a bonus action now too. I'm still digesting a lot of the class changes, but in all honesty they seem mostly for the better.
I was playing last night and we noticed our DNDBeyond sheets had changed to include changes from this new version. Something that stood out for me is that the rules for grappling have changed. It's gone from a contested Athletics vs Athletics/Acrobatics contest to the target having to beat a DC based on your strength. Not the biggest fan of that since I used grappling a fair amount and this now makes me worse at that and I also like it feeling like more of a back-and-forth struggle we're both actively engaging in turn-by-turn rather than the equivalent of casting a spell.
 

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
I was playing last night and we noticed our DNDBeyond sheets had changed to include changes from this new version. Something that stood out for me is that the rules for grappling have changed. It's gone from a contested Athletics vs Athletics/Acrobatics contest to the target having to beat a DC based on your strength. Not the biggest fan of that since I used grappling a fair amount and this now makes me worse at that and I also like it feeling like more of a back-and-forth struggle we're both actively engaging in turn-by-turn rather than the equivalent of casting a spell.
Yeah, that one does sound like a shame. It's always exciting when two players have to roll against each other.
 

LordCBH

Member
I was playing last night and we noticed our DNDBeyond sheets had changed to include changes from this new version. Something that stood out for me is that the rules for grappling have changed. It's gone from a contested Athletics vs Athletics/Acrobatics contest to the target having to beat a DC based on your strength. Not the biggest fan of that since I used grappling a fair amount and this now makes me worse at that and I also like it feeling like more of a back-and-forth struggle we're both actively engaging in turn-by-turn rather than the equivalent of casting a spell.

If you’re dm’ing then honestly I’d just run the grapple check the old way. Assuming your group is cool with it of course, but the old way is much more exciting and fun imo
 

DKehoe

Member
Yeah, that one does sound like a shame. It's always exciting when two players have to roll against each other.
Or just against an enemy. Grappling and shoving are one of the ways you can make use of a good Athletics skill. If you’re playing a martial character those are options you can use outside of just using your weapon which can sometimes feel a bit limited compared to the stuff the casters can do. But I’ve also heard they’ve created more martial options so maybe it balances out. I don’t want to pass judgement yet when I don't have the full picture. But it's always a pity to see something you often use get nerfed.

If you’re dm’ing then honestly I’d just run the grapple check the old way. Assuming your group is cool with it of course, but the old way is much more exciting and fun imo
I'm a player in one campaign and a DM for another and yeh I think for now we're just going to be sticking to 5E.
 

LordCBH

Member
I'm a player in one campaign and a DM for another and yeh I think for now we're just going to be sticking to 5E.

I will say, check out Pathfinder 2e if you haven’t. My group has been having a ton of fun with it. I’d say definitely give a one shot or even a small two or three session thing a try to see if you guys like it. That’s what we did and we ended up just decided to roll with it for the long haul.
 

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
I will say, check out Pathfinder 2e if you haven’t. My group has been having a ton of fun with it. I’d say definitely give a one shot or even a small two or three session thing a try to see if you guys like it. That’s what we did and we ended up just decided to roll with it for the long haul.
I'll be honest, I reaaaally hate Pathfinder's aesthetic. But I guess I could say the same about DND's now too?

My group is pretty casual though. I have to basically guide them on the rules still, and we have been playing for a long time. I don't think they could handle the crunch of Pathfinder's 3.75 style play.
 

LordCBH

Member
I'll be honest, I reaaaally hate Pathfinder's aesthetic. But I guess I could say the same about DND's now too?

My group is pretty casual though. I have to basically guide them on the rules still, and we have been playing for a long time. I don't think they could handle the crunch of Pathfinder's 3.75 style play.

PF2e has, to me at least, gone a long way to make it more approachable. Biggest thing I’ve been enjoying is the way actions work in it.
 

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
PF2e has, to me at least, gone a long way to make it more approachable. Biggest thing I’ve been enjoying is the way actions work in it.
Didn't they release a revised 2e book? I haven't checked it out, but the first version was kind of rough. I take it the new book is better organized?

Also I know that Paizo released basically their version of DND Beyond. How does it compare?
 

DKehoe

Member
I will say, check out Pathfinder 2e if you haven’t. My group has been having a ton of fun with it. I’d say definitely give a one shot or even a small two or three session thing a try to see if you guys like it. That’s what we did and we ended up just decided to roll with it for the long haul.
Yeh my group was talking recently about giving Pathfinder 2E a try. I've got the Core Rulebook and played one session years back but I'd like to do more. In our group we're pretty open to trying different systems so I imagine we'll get around to it in the near future. Recently we've played the Alien RPG, VTM, DIE, Star Wars Edge of the Empire and we've all got other stuff we'd like to try running for each other soon. Heart is one I've especially got my eye on.
 

LordCBH

Member
Didn't they release a revised 2e book? I haven't checked it out, but the first version was kind of rough. I take it the new book is better organized?

Also I know that Paizo released basically their version of DND Beyond. How does it compare?

Not 100% sure on the first? I think so, but we’ve just been using free resources online and using the pathbuilder website to make our characters. The Pathbuilder site lets you toggle remastered classes on or off when creating too. As far as the other features of pathbuulder, not too sure. We’ve been importing our sheets into roll20, and there’s no tool like D&D Beyond + Beyond20 that I could find.

(Side note, I definitely miss using Beyond20 paired with D&D Beyond. So convenient to make the sheet in Beyond and then having the Beyond 20 extension to make rolls show up in Roll20. )
 

LordCBH

Member
Yeh my group was talking recently about giving Pathfinder 2E a try. I've got the Core Rulebook and played one session years back but I'd like to do more. In our group we're pretty open to trying different systems so I imagine we'll get around to it in the near future. Recently we've played the Alien RPG, VTM, DIE, Star Wars Edge of the Empire and we've all got other stuff we'd like to try running for each other soon. Heart is one I've especially got my eye on.

I’m really excited for Starfinder 2E.
 
I haven't read through it all yet but I really like some of the additions to Fighter. The thought of being able to knock prone a creature and teleport it up to 30ft away horizontally could lead to some fun moments.
 
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