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[tuxfool]

The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT3| Single and on the market. Pls respond.

This one.

 

[Psychotext]

I see average Joe is still rabbiting on about no deal being better than a bad deal. I guess they still haven't taken on board just how fucked we'd be (trade / business wise) if we ended up switching to standard WTO rules.

 

[JonathanEx]

Have we done 'Friendship Ended with EU, now WTO is my best friend' yet?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Have we done 'Friendship Ended with EU, now WTO is my best friend' yet?

Some friend, we keep proclaiming how we're gonna break all their house rules.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

I'm waiting for Council of Europe exit soon (CExit?) because of pesky human rights. Then UNExit afterwards.

 

[Uzzy]

UK hopes of autumn trade talks 'will be dashed', says Slovenian PM

The British government’s hopes of opening discussions on a future trade relationship this autumn will definitely be dashed by the European Union due to the slow progress of Brexit negotiations, one of 27 prime ministers who will make the decision has said.

Miro Cerar, the prime minister of Slovenia, revealed in an interview with the Guardian that it had proved too difficult to close the differences between the two sides in the opening rounds of talks, with the UK producing some unrealistic proposals.

In October the European council, on which Cerar sits, will decide by unanimity whether sufficient progress has been made on the three key issues of citizens’ rights, the financial settlement and the Irish border, in order for talks to be widened to negotiations over future trade once the UK has left the bloc.

The Slovenian prime minister said: “I think that the process will definitely take more time than we expected at the start of the negotiations. There are so many difficult topics on the table, difficult issues there, that one cannot expect all those issues will be solved according to the schedule made in the first place.

“What is important now is that the three basic issues are solved in reasonable time. Then there will optimism on realistic grounds. I know this issue of finance is a tricky one. But it must also be solved, along with the rights of people.”

 

[chadskin]

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar said he remains “confused and puzzled” about the U.K.’s global trading plans after Brexit, as the clock ticks down in talks on the terms of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

The U.K. government seems to be suggesting it wants all the advantages of being in the EU, but none of the responsibilities and costs, Varadkar said in an interview Monday with Bloomberg Television in Toronto.

“That’s not a realistic position,” Varadkar said in the interview. “What trade agreement does the U.K. want with the EU? At the moment, they have the best trade deal imaginable. What are these better deals the U.K. really wants from Europe and other countries? Some more clarity would be helpful.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...trade-stance-puzzling-ireland-s-varadkar-says

Here were are, more than a year after the referendum.

 

[Funky Papa]

I'm cackling, but this kind of incompetence is not in the benefit of my own country.

They really need to get their shit together.

 

[Xando]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...trade-stance-puzzling-ireland-s-varadkar-says

Here were are, more than a year after the referendum.

At this point i‘m leaning towards sabotage by the government.
They realized brexit is a dumb idea and now try to get out of it.

Can’t explain the sheer incompetence otherwise

 

[JonnyDBrit]

At this point i‘m leaning towards sabotage by the government.
They realized brexit is a dumb idea and now try to get out of it.

Can’t explain the sheer incompetence otherwise

Unfortunately, incompetence is its own explanation. Especially since well, I can't imagine this government having the balls and actually say 'It's untenable, so it's not happening'. They have no out here.

 

[TimmmV]

At this point i‘m leaning towards sabotage by the government.
They realized brexit is a dumb idea and now try to get out of it.

Can’t explain the sheer incompetence otherwise

If the government were competent the referendum wouldn't have been offered in the first place

The current mess we have is because the current government are chasing the votes of a load of very vocal angry people, who don't know what they want and are basically lashing out at anything possible.

It's going to carry on getting a lot worse before its gets better imo

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

At this point i‘m leaning towards sabotage by the government.
They realized brexit is a dumb idea and now try to get out of it.

Can't explain the sheer incompetence otherwise

If they were competent then they would have said 'this is stupid, we're not doing it' from the beginning. They're ideologically inclined towards doing it now unfortunately. I really don't believe David Davis thinks it's dumb.

 

[chadskin]

From the Bloomberg story above:

Varadkar is due to make a visit Tuesday to the U.S-Canada border, which has been cited by some Brexit supporters as a ”seamless and frictionless" border and possible model for the Irish frontier.

”I'm a little bit skeptical," he said.”But I'd like to see it with my own eyes."

His verdict is in:

Just visited Canada-US border. It's high tech and highly efficient, but make no mistake - it's a hard border.

https://twitter.com/campaignforleo/status/900073098032160770

 

[Zaph]

What? Brexiters thought for a second the USA-Canada border could be workable in Ireland?

 

[travisbickle]

At this point i‘m leaning towards sabotage by the government.
They realized brexit is a dumb idea and now try to get out of it.

Can’t explain the sheer incompetence otherwise

Before the EU referendum, David Davis was quoted saying he'd do a deal with Germany if the British public voted to leave the EU. These guys are thick as shit.

 

[daviyoung]

We're going to end up in the Euro aren't we?

 

[Burai]

We're going to end up in the Euro aren't we?

There is no way this doesn't end up with us rejoining, Euro, Schengen and all.

 

[CyclopsRock]

By chance, I'm actually in Nice right now(!) - got a TEFL gig round the corner in Sanremo for a bit, then off to Salamanca, Spain.

I loved Salamanca! My girlfriend lived in the South for a while and we sort of "found" Salamanca my mistake when we were stopping for lunch whilst driving from London to the Costa del Sol. We made a point of going back there every time we didn't fly. Gorgeous place, especially in summer.

In other news, here's something that I think's pretty interesting from The Times' EU correspondent, dunno if it's been posted already:

https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/900009941452242944

"Bluster & spin" is UK attempting to extract a best possible deal, also 4 taxpayer. It's a negotiation. Disagreeing with Brexit is one thing. Legit #Brexit criticism should't make professional watchers blind 2 reality of negotiations. Both sides fighting their corner as they should. But believing that the EU is "right" in the talks and spin, bluster free is bizarre. Should HMG simply accept terms as they are given? DD already accepted the "Brexit bill," transition period, some role for ECJ & paying into #EU budget post divorce. So this is far from the alleged intransigence that gets reported, when pundits/reporters quote statements from over a year ago. If you think you can reverse #Brexit, find a political way to do it, don't bash own government, civil service for doing what they have to. And as for spin, EU institutions & 27 govts interests are opposed to those of the UK; each side is briefing accordingly. HMG are not bumbling incompetents. Best civil service in EU, along the French. Ministers evolved: been briefed and understood realities. But it's 27 against one. So HMG simply negotiating from a very weak position, not capricious ignorants as presented. Bog-standard FTA doable.

 

[keep]

"Bluster & spin" is UK attempting to extract a best possible deal, also 4 taxpayer. It's a negotiation. Disagreeing with Brexit is one thing. Legit #Brexit criticism should't make professional watchers blind 2 reality of negotiations. Both sides fighting their corner as they should. But believing that the EU is "right" in the talks and spin, bluster free is bizarre. Should HMG simply accept terms as they are given? DD already accepted the "Brexit bill," transition period, some role for ECJ & paying into #EU budget post divorce. So this is far from the alleged intransigence that gets reported, when pundits/reporters quote statements from over a year ago. If you think you can reverse #Brexit, find a political way to do it, don't bash own government, civil service for doing what they have to. And as for spin, EU institutions & 27 govts interests are opposed to those of the UK; each side is briefing accordingly. HMG are not bumbling incompetents. Best civil service in EU, along the French. Ministers evolved: been briefed and understood realities. But it's 27 against one. So HMG simply negotiating from a very weak position, not capricious ignorants as presented. Bog-standard FTA doable.

DD may have already "accepted" Brexit bill, transition period, etc... but their ARROGANCE and HUBRIS about the whole thing has NOT stopped and deserves to be challenged and brought up again and again. Only this week Theresa May has been peddling the whole "take back control" and "we will leave the ECJ" lines from a year ago, so the civil service papers may say one thing but the Tory politicians' statements clearly say another.

They are not spinning this to be CUNNING NEGOTIATORS. They're doing this for POLITICAL GAIN and to satisfy the Brexiteers, the Mail and the loonies in their party.

 

[Zaph]

Brexit: UK must keep 'half an eye' on European Court of Justice rulings
The UK will have to keep "half an eye" on the rulings of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) after Brexit, a government minister has said.

Critics have accused the prime minister of a "climbdown" on her promise the UK would take back control of its laws when it left the EU, in March 2019.

The government maintains the UK will no longer be under the "direct jurisdiction" of the ECJ.

But Justice Minister Dominic Raab has now said it will not be a clean break.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Our commitment as a government since the referendum has been crystal clear - we're ending the jurisdiction of the European Court over disputes between the EU and the UK, that's not on the table.

"But look, let's also be clear about it - when we leave the EU, we are taking back control over our laws.

"There will be divergence between the case law of the EU and the UK, and it is precisely because there will be that divergence as we take back control that it makes sense for the UK to keep half an eye on the case law of the EU, and for the EU to keep half an eye on the case law of the UK."

The weaselling is something else

 

[Funky Papa]

IANAL and all that, but how exactly do you do that? Is there a comparable example anywhere in the world? I honestly have no idea if that's even possible, nevermind how can you articulate such a thing without turning your legislation into a huge mess.

 

[Zaph]

IANAL and all that, but how exactly do you do that? Is there a comparable example anywhere in the world? I honestly have no idea if that's even possible, nevermind how can you articulate such a thing without turning your legislation into a huge mess.

We'll offer the EU a gentleman's agreement. Can't write anything down, but we'll shake hands. Should work.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

IANAL and all that, but how exactly do you do that? Is there a comparable example anywhere in the world? I honestly have no idea if that's even possible, nevermind how can you articulate such a thing without turning your legislation into a huge mess.

Sort of England & Wales and Scotland, actually. They are separate legal systems that never-the-less keep very close regard to each other's developments and tend to move in sync even though it's not strictly required.

 

[Funky Papa]

Well, I'm familiar with somewhat similar arrangements (ie: a number of Latin American countries use certain European standards/regulations), but I can't really see how the UK is going to get rid of everything it dislikes about the EU's law while keeping the nation in sync with the EU's law.

It just seems neeedlessly complicated and troublesome to navigate. Then again, that's well beyond my area of expertise.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Well, I'm familiar with somewhat similar arrangements (ie: a number of Latin American countries use certain European standards/regulations), but I can't really see how the UK is going to get rid of everything it dislikes about the EU's law while keeping the nation in sync with the EU's law.

It just seems neeedlessly complicated and troublesome to navigate. Then again, that's well beyond my area of expertise.

Perhaps it could treat everything as a directive rather than regulation? That way it gives the UK parliament ultimate control over the steps it takes, but keeps us more or less in step with the EU. Dunno why we'd do that, though.

 

[Auctopus]

bonus stupidity:

Reminds me of Betsy DeVos not knowing the difference between proficiency and growth within Education. All roads lead to nepotism.

 

[tuxfool]

The weaselling is something else

Haha. I asked about the feasibility of making a Frankenstein's monster out of UK and EU laws a few months ago.

looks like that is what they're trying to do. Surely it is nonsense simply due to the fact that the moment any part of an applicable law gets out of sync then it makes any previous agreements void?

 

[Linkstrikesback]

We're going to end up in the Euro aren't we?

There is no way this doesn't end up with us rejoining, Euro, Schengen and all.

Yep. We don't know how many years or even decades it'll take, but there is no way this doesn't eventually end up with the UK begging to be let back in and accepting the Euro. I eagerly await the response of the sovereignty idiots on that day.

Then again, that's well beyond my area of expertise.

Sounds like you're the perfect person for the job on the Brexit team.

 

[Tacitus_]

Perhaps it could treat everything as a directive rather than regulation? That way it gives the UK parliament ultimate control over the steps it takes, but keeps us more or less in step with the EU. Dunno why we'd do that, though.

Keeping up appearances?

 

[jufonuk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41027671

 

[dragonelite]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41027671

I really hope there is some grand master plan behind that play by the British government.
If not that is one big massive fuck up.

 

[Uzzy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41027671

It's fine, there's only 3.2 million other EU citizens who will need to have citizenship applications processed. Nothing to worry about. The Home Office always manages to pull off big projects like that on time, with no errors whatsoever.

This latest Government position paper is actually pretty sound. It's a more realistic, honest assessment of the issues surrounding jurisdiction and dispute resolution, and steps away from the more insane, hardline rhetoric surrounding the ECJ. There's suggestions on ways to move forward that actually open up some interesting possibilities for where the UK ends up, like the suggestion that the EFTA court might be acceptable. That being considered as acceptable means that just maybe the EEA is deemed as acceptable. That's a very interesting climbdown.

Now we just wait for the Mogg's of the world to realise what's being proposed and go nuclear.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I really hope there is some grand master plan behind that play by the British government.
If not that is one big massive fuck up.

There is. The grand master plan is they want to deport EU nationals post brexit to appeal to the daily mail crowd.

Fuck this country.

 

[PdotMichael]

The EU was always that scapegoat for completely unrelated domestic problems so it shouldn't surprise anyone that politicians, journalists and the people don't even realize the political scope of the Brexit.

 

[tuxfool]

It's fine, there's only 3.2 million other EU citizens who will need to have citizenship applications processed. Nothing to worry about. The Home Office always manages to pull off big projects like that on time, with no errors whatsoever.

This latest Government position paper is actually pretty sound. It's a more realistic, honest assessment of the issues surrounding jurisdiction and dispute resolution, and steps away from the more insane, hardline rhetoric surrounding the ECJ. There's suggestions on ways to move forward that actually open up some interesting possibilities for where the UK ends up, like the suggestion that the EFTA court might be acceptable. That being considered as acceptable means that just maybe the EEA is deemed as acceptable. That's a very interesting climbdown.

Now we just wait for the Mogg's of the world to realise what's being proposed and go nuclear.

It is less insane, but it is also needlessly complicated, and the consequences of this decision get more complicated as time goes by, not less.

 

[Burai]

It is less insane, but it is also needlessly complicated, and the consequences of this decision get more complicated as time goes by, not less.

On the face of it, it seems that shadowing the ECJ keeps everything consistent and allows us to continue our relationship seamlessly.

The problem will come when the right wingers come across something they don't like and want to repeal it and we then have to go through the same fucking arguments about sovereignty all over again.

 

[Zaph]

BBC News: 'It's unfair. I came to the UK aged six' (video)

While this is a case that'll no doubt get resolved (for obvious reasons...) it really does highlight what an utter mess this is and one of the many reasons I can't buy into the intentional obfuscation bullshit

 

[kmag]

The Data Protection position paper is a hoot. It basically amounts to "We're British, we're special, we'll get the same access as we've got just now thanks, but we reserve the right to change our own data protection frameworks unilaterally".

Data protection is one of the bigger issues of Brexit. Once we're out we lose the national security derogation that member states have so even if we keep the same rules as the EU, we'll never be equivalent. Companies can get around the data protection issues but it's going to be extremely expensive.

 

[TimmmV]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41036236

Net migration has fallen to the lowest level for three years after a surge in the number of EU nationals leaving the UK since last June's Brexit vote.
Net migration - the difference between those entering and leaving the UK - fell 81,000 to 246,000 in the year to March 2017.
More than half that change is due to a decrease in net migration of EU citizens, which is down 51,000.

Looks like the plan to make the UK so unappealing that people stop coming is working!

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics

So those tens of thousands of non-EU students supposedly overstaying their visa? Uh, may not exist.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Nothing like overestimating the correct figure by 2200%.

 

[Xando]

Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics

So those tens of thousands of non-EU students supposedly overstaying their visa? Uh, may not exist.

Guess who was in the home office when they made decisions on false data

 

[Chinner]

amazing story. Has anyone revised immigration numbers to reflect the truth yet?

 

[Mr. Sam]

Good piece by Stephen Bush:

The big problem is that the government thinks immigration has been bad for Britain, not that it has been overestimating the scale of it.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...nment-has-got-number-migrants-wrong-heres-why

It’s not just that overseas students have transformed the financial position of individual universities. As I’ve written before, opening a university is one of the most effective ways of regenerating a city. They create well-paying and secure work in the surrounding area, both directly for the university and servicing the needs of the university population, both students and workers.

...

That the ONS has got its numbers wrong is bad, yes. But it’s a lot worse that public policy has been set on the idea that more people coming to study at British universities has been bad for Britain – however bad that may be.

 

[Bleepey]

I don't get shitting on International students. Even if I lost a place to a equal foreign student because they pay more, they kinda subsidise home students. I paid £5.5k for my masters, intl students paid £20k

 

[Uzzy]

Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics

So those tens of thousands of non-EU students supposedly overstaying their visa? Uh, may not exist.

If only the ONS had more qualified statisticians to recruit. Don't know where we could get those.

Shocking stuff. More shocking that these sorts of statistics are being used to push a silly agenda. Even worse is how the Government aren't taking the sorts of steps required to alleviate the effects of their policies. Drastically cutting the number of foreign students coming to UK universities will destroy them financially and be a major hit to our soft power in the world. I don't see the Government responding to that by investing in them.

 

[Blue Lou]

From tomorrow's Financial Times:

 

[oti]

From tomorrow's Financial Times:

This is rich.

 

[chadskin]

Hold the phone, it's happening...

Britain’s main opposition Labour Party is announcing a policy shift which opens the possibility of the country remaining in the European Union’s single market and customs union for several years as part of a “soft” brexit, a spokesman said on Saturday.

The party would propose the same “basic terms” as Britain’s current relationship with the EU during a transition period following Brexit in 2019, and after that for all options to be open, a spokesman for Labour said.

His comments came in response to a report in Britain’s Guardian and sister newspaper Observer in which shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer backed “continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019, when Britain leaves the EU,” so that Labour would become the party of a “soft Brexit” and offer a smoother economic outcome.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-labour-idUSKCN1B60QQ

 

[Number45]

Good, although it would have been nice had it happened before they voted to ensure a hard brexit was easy for the tories to attain.