hyperbertha
Member
Nope. Fromsoft curbstomps team ninja when it comes to action. To the point tn had no choice but to copy from in almost everyway.
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This game makes From software games play and look like ass!
- Thread starter Gamer79
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bighugeguns
Member
From Software are like one of the last few no shit video game developers left you absolute peanut head.
Badlucktroll
Member
i just got reminded of how much these games make my thumbs sore lol
You made up a definiton and pretended it was universally agreed upon. Not how genres work. So by your logic you could have a a game that is literally a copy of dark souls but you dont lose currency upon death and it wouldnt be a soulslike anymore. Meanwhile if you put all those mechanics in super mario bros it would be a soulslike
TheDarkPhantom
Member
Ah yes, comparing apples to oranges is always a fruitful endeavor. I love Souls, I love Ninja Gaiden, you're allowed to love both too, you're welcome 
SirTerry-T
Member
Ironically, From Software just need their coders to "git gud".
Spiral1407
Member
Blurry compared to more modern hardware would be obvious, so your PC comparison is irrelevant. But saying they're blurry compared to 6th gen games is delusional. PS3 has 16x the RAM that the PS2 did, so unless the game was hilariously rushed/unoptimised, I don't see how that could even be possible. I have a backwards compatible PS3, so I can compare textures directly between generations and I can't think of a single example where a 6th gen game universally has better textures than its 7th gen counterpart.
DownLikeBCPowder
Member
I'm sure it's been said, but these are two totally different types of games.
kevboard
Member
yes... because games like that exist and noone calls them souls like.
they are called action RPGs.
indeed. if Super Mario Bros. was an RPG with currency from killed enemies which you lose when respawning at user activated checkpoints, and have 1 chance to get back before dying again, it would be a Souls-Like
the issue with any other "definition" you could come up with on what is and isn't a souls like, is that you'd instantly then have to consider a ton of games previously not categorised as Souls-Likes as Souls-Likes.
Diablo 4 is an action RPG with set checkpoints and enemy currency... I have not once seen anyone call it a Souls-Like, and why is that? because the losing currency and getting it back part isn't there.
and if you only count games with a 3rd person behind the player camera to justify Diablo 4 not qualifying, then suddenly games people do largely agree on being Souls-Likes like Blasphemous get disqualified.
and it begs the question, if you gave Samus a sword instead of a blaster, would Metroid suddenly be a Souls-Like?
...which would of course mean...
...Symphony of the Night would automatically need to retroactively be reclassified from Metroidvania to Souls-Like.
Set Respawn points? Check! Melee combat with swords? Check! Currency/XP from Enemies? Check! RPG Elements? CHECK! Interconnected level design? CHECK!
Symphony of the Night has more Dark Souls elements than WuKong, but strangely I have never heard anyone call it a Souls-Like
the definition I listed in my last post wasn't just pulled out of my ass. I looked at which combination of elements made FromSoftware's Souls games distinct.
As in, change 1 of them and suddenly the definition gets too wide reaching to the point of getting useless and/or completely overlapping with other already established genres, like Metroidvania especially in the case of Souls games... many Metroidvanias would suddenly be Souls-Likes if we remove the Soul-retrieval system from the genre definition.
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NeverYouMind
Member
That's harsh man. I don't think liking FromSoftware games is a mental disability even if the developers have some ass-backward design doctrines.
There is no set definition. Soulslike includes a bunch of thingw and if a game has enough of those you can call it a roguelike. It will be different for any person. And it's not just having thungs in common. A third camera perspective might be something a game has in common with souls games but that's not relevant.yes... because games like that exist and noone calls them souls like.
they are called action RPGs.
indeed. if Super Mario Bros. was an RPG with currency from killed enemies which you lose when respawning at user activated checkpoints, and have 1 chance to get back before dying again, it would be a Souls-Like
the issue with any other "definition" you could come up with on what is and isn't a souls like, is that you'd instantly then have to consider a ton of games previously not categorised as Souls-Likes as Souls-Likes.
Diablo 4 is an action RPG with set checkpoints and enemy currency... I have not once seen anyone call it a Souls-Like, and why is that? because the losing currency and getting it back part isn't there.
and if you only count games with a 3rd person behind the player camera to justify Diablo 4 not qualifying, then suddenly games people do largely agree on being Souls-Likes like Blasphemous get disqualified.
and it begs the question, if you gave Samus a sword instead of a blaster, would Metroid suddenly be a Souls-Like?
...which would of course mean...
...Symphony of the Night would automatically need to retroactively be reclassified from Metroidvania to Souls-Like.
Set Respawn points? Check! Melee combat with swords? Check! Currency/XP from Enemies? Check! RPG Elements? CHECK! Interconnected level design? CHECK!
Symphony of the Night has more Dark Souls elements than WuKong, but strangely I have never heard anyone call it a Souls-Like
the definition I listed in my last post wasn't just pulled out of my ass. I looked at which combination of elements made FromSoftware's Souls games distinct.
As in, change 1 of them and suddenly the definition gets too wide reaching to the point of getting useless and/or completely overlapping with other already established genres, like Metroidvania especially in the case of Souls games... many Metroidvanias would suddenly be Souls-Likes if we remove the Soul-retrieval system from the genre definition.
remnant is a soulslike, you dont lose currency when you die.
Even if diablo met your 4 criteria it would never be considered a soulslike
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Wandering Leopard
Member
This is funny, especially when you consider which dev has had a bigger impact on the industry.
kevboard
Member
then it's entirely useless as a definition and shouldn't be used ever
no it's not
why not? now you have to come up with arbitrary things to justify why it wouldn't be..
why is Remnant a Souls-like? it has basically nothing in common with souls games. like, literally almost nothing. not gamplay wise, systems wise... it doesn't have remotely enough overlap
in order to call Remnant a souls like and Diablo 4 not you literally have to make up shit on the spot, which in return will then qualify and disqualify other random games in the process, and then you have to make up shit on the spot ro reconcile these games not counting or still counting.
in the end you have a "definition" that's entirely arbitrary and doesn't give any valid information about the game.
you'd need to explain for example why Ninja Gaiden Black is not a Souls-Like but WuKong is, and you'd have to use very arbitrary things to do so that conflicts with other titles you seemingly do consider Souls-Likes.
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Madserb2023
Member
I am not actually a big fan of From software games because I don't like the combat. It feels like I am over encumbered in a Bethesda game however this take makes no sense. You are comparing a completely different design philosophy. It's like saying Mario Kart is more enjoyable than Gran Turismo.
Quick google search for best soulslikesthen it's entirely useless as a definition and shouldn't be used ever
no it's not
why not? now you have to come up with arbitrary things to justify why it wouldn't be..
why is Remnant a Souls-like? it has basically nothing in common with souls games. like, literally almost nothing. not gamplay wise, systems wise... it doesn't have remotely enough overlap
in order to call Remnant a souls like and Diablo 4 not you literally have to make up shit on the spot, which in return will then qualify and disqualify other random games in the process, and then you have to make up shit on the spot ro reconcile these games not counting or still counting.
in the end you have a "definition" that's entirely arbitrary and doesn't give any valid information about the game.
you'd need to explain for example why Ninja Gaiden Black is not a Souls-Like but WuKong is, and you'd have to use very arbitrary things to do so that conflicts with other titles you seemingly do consider Souls-Likes.
The 10 Best Soulslike Games - IGN
From Software's "Souls" series has given rise to a whole sub-genre's worth of similarly styled action RPGs that range from fantasy to sci-fi, indie to AAA, and 2D to 3D.
Lists remnant
15 Best Soulslike Games Ever
The best Soulslike games ever show why this is the most important genre in the modern era of gaming.
www.denofgeek.com
Lists remnant
Soulslike Games Tier List
Here are the biggest games in the Soulslike genre ranked, including everything from FromSoftware's games to Dark Souls clones.
gamerant.com
Lists remnant
The Best Soulslike Games Of All Time, Ranked
If you're a fan of Soulsborne games and in search of something similar, here are some of the best Soulslike games.
www.thegamer.com
Lists remnant. I could go on. It's nit me saying it. It's the entire gaming industry.
Lets check steam
First tag? Soulslike
You're in the minority and genres are mostly subjective therefore the correct thing is solely decided by what the majority ends up using.
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Arachnid
Member
Yeah, I've never seen anybody claim Remnant isn't a soulslike before.Quick google search for best soulslikes
The 10 Best Soulslike Games - IGN
From Software's "Souls" series has given rise to a whole sub-genre's worth of similarly styled action RPGs that range from fantasy to sci-fi, indie to AAA, and 2D to 3D.www.ign.com
Lists remnant
15 Best Soulslike Games Ever
The best Soulslike games ever show why this is the most important genre in the modern era of gaming.
Lists remnant
Soulslike Games Tier List
Here are the biggest games in the Soulslike genre ranked, including everything from FromSoftware's games to Dark Souls clones.
Lists remnant
The Best Soulslike Games Of All Time, Ranked
If you're a fan of Soulsborne games and in search of something similar, here are some of the best Soulslike games.
Lists remnant. I could go on. It's nit me saying it. It's the entire gaming industry.
Lets check steam
First tag? Soulslike
You're in the minority and genres are mostly subjective therefore the correct thing is solely decided by what the majority ends up using.
kevboard
Member
Quick google search for best soulslikes
The 10 Best Soulslike Games - IGN
From Software's "Souls" series has given rise to a whole sub-genre's worth of similarly styled action RPGs that range from fantasy to sci-fi, indie to AAA, and 2D to 3D.
Lists remnant
15 Best Soulslike Games Ever
The best Soulslike games ever show why this is the most important genre in the modern era of gaming.
Lists remnant
Soulslike Games Tier List
Here are the biggest games in the Soulslike genre ranked, including everything from FromSoftware's games to Dark Souls clones.
Lists remnant
The Best Soulslike Games Of All Time, Ranked
If you're a fan of Soulsborne games and in search of something similar, here are some of the best Soulslike games.
Lists remnant. I could go on. It's nit me saying it. It's the entire gaming industry.
Lets check steam
First tag? Soulslike
You're in the minority and genres are mostly subjective therefore the correct thing is solely decided by what the majority ends up using.
there are people that call Ocarina of Time an RPG, that doesn't mean it is one.
And don't have any respect for mainstream gaming media (neither should you or anyone really...)
and Steam tags are often stupid.
great example of this is Resident Evil 1.
Resident Evil 1 is almost a textbook example of an Action Adventure game...
yet here are the Steam Tags:
meanwhile here are the tags for Outlast, which has zero, and I absolutely mean a total of ZERO game design overlap with Resident Evil:
going by Steam, these are the same genre "survival horror"
one game has an emphasis on inventory and resource management, has limited and manual save points that you will be reset to if you don't survive, an interconnected map, puzzled to solve, bosses to fight, different weapons to find...
and the other is a linear game where you hide from enemies that you can't fight, no puzzles, zero inventory management, frequent automatic checkpoints, no combat...
yeah... if I liked Resident Evil, and I would look up what games in this genre exist on Steam, I would end up buying games that have absolutely nothing in common with RE outside of a general horror theme.
Resident Evil 1's game design has more in common with Indiana Jones And the Great Circle, or hell even Monkey Island, than it has with Outlast. Yet somehow Steam says they are the same genre, with the only tags differing being vague stuff like "atmospheric" and "gore" lol
and I also noticed is how you dodge the part where you tell me why Ninja Gaiden Black is not a souls like but WuKong is.
or why Diablo 4 is not a Souls-Like but Remnant is.
Why is Symphony of the Night not a Souls-Like? Or is it? and if it is, is Metroid one? if not, then maybe Ori?
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NeverYouMind
Member
I call all souls style games by FromSoft "3D Igavanias" because that is what they are to me. They do not have platforming on the level of Symphony of the Night but by and large the gameplay challenge and collection loop is similar. Some people think Smash Bros. is a fighting game. Just don't expect these genre tags to make any sense.there are people that call Ocarina of Time an RPG, that doesn't mean it is one.
And don't have any respect for mainstream gaming media (neither should you or anyone really...)
and Steam tags are often stupid.
great example of this is Resident Evil 1.
Resident Evil 1 is almost a textbook example of an Action Adventure game...
yet here are the Steam Tags:
meanwhile here are the tags for Outlast, which has zero, and I absolutely mean a total of ZERO game design overlap with Resident Evil:
going by Steam, these are the same genre "survival horror"
one game has an emphasis on inventory and resource management, has limited and manual save points that you will be reset to if you don't survive, an interconnected map, puzzled to solve, bosses to fight, different weapons to find...
and the other is a linear game where you hide from enemies that you can't fight, no puzzles, zero inventory management, frequent automatic checkpoints, no combat...
yeah... if I liked Resident Evil, and I would look up what games in this genre exist on Steam, I would end up buying games that have absolutely nothing in common with RE outside of a general horror theme.
Resident Evil 1's game design has more in common with Indiana Jones And the Great Circle, or hell even Monkey Island, than it has with Outlast. Yet somehow Steam says they are the same genre, with the only tags differing being vague stuff like "atmospheric" and "gore" lol
and I also noticed is how you dodge the part where you tell me why Ninja Gaiden Black is not a souls like but WuKong is.
or why Diablo 4 is not a Souls-Like but Remnant is.
Why is Symphony of the Night not a Souls-Like? Or is it? and if it is, is Metroid one? if not, then maybe Ori?
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Sure none of those things are perfect. I dont care about the mainstream media. But the mainstream media calls it a soulslike, so does the community which is basically steam tags. The devs called it a souls like but with guns. So basically everyone except a tiny minority that includes you. Meanwhile your definition of soulslike is used by.. you.there are people that call Ocarina of Time an RPG, that doesn't mean it is one.
And don't have any respect for mainstream gaming media (neither should you or anyone really...)
and Steam tags are often stupid.
great example of this is Resident Evil 1.
Resident Evil 1 is almost a textbook example of an Action Adventure game...
yet here are the Steam Tags:
meanwhile here are the tags for Outlast, which has zero, and I absolutely mean a total of ZERO game design overlap with Resident Evil:
going by Steam, these are the same genre "survival horror"
one game has an emphasis on inventory and resource management, has limited and manual save points that you will be reset to if you don't survive, an interconnected map, puzzled to solve, bosses to fight, different weapons to find...
and the other is a linear game where you hide from enemies that you can't fight, no puzzles, zero inventory management, frequent automatic checkpoints, no combat...
yeah... if I liked Resident Evil, and I would look up what games in this genre exist on Steam, I would end up buying games that have absolutely nothing in common with RE outside of a general horror theme.
Resident Evil 1's game design has more in common with Indiana Jones And the Great Circle, or hell even Monkey Island, than it has with Outlast. Yet somehow Steam says they are the same genre, with the only tags differing being vague stuff like "atmospheric" and "gore" lol
and I also noticed is how you dodge the part where you tell me why Ninja Gaiden Black is not a souls like but WuKong is.
or why Diablo 4 is not a Souls-Like but Remnant is.
Why is Symphony of the Night not a Souls-Like? Or is it? and if it is, is Metroid one? if not, then maybe Ori?
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Grizzled Ghost
Member
I think it's crazy to consider a game an x-vania if it doesn't have ability based progression.
NeverYouMind
Member
But they do: DeS you get Thief's Ring; DS1 you get Orange Charred Ring, Darkmoon Seance Ring, and Covenant of Artorias (ring); DS2 you get Silvercat Ring; DS3 you get quickstep; BB you get Crown of Illusions; ER you get Torrent. It is just not a major focus and usually one and done side content.
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Kings Field
Member
Bayonetta shits all over the NG franchise.
NeverYouMind
Member
Bayonetta shits all over itself. It needs no help. All style and no substance. No consistency.
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Grizzled Ghost
Member
The only one of those that gates progress is the Covenant of Artorias. And that's not even an ability, it's just a boss fight tax. It has zero use aside from the 4 kings.
NeverYouMind
Member
But the Orange Charred Ring lets you walk on lava... Besides, many Igavanias let you play the game as a Belmont that can just get to places.
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kevboard
Member
well, Metroidvanias' (Igavanias') main gimmick is the obtaining of new items that give you abilities, which then let you enter new paths of a map by using the ability. like the ability to jump higher, or to fly, or to break objects etc.
this is then used as puzzle elements across the map, where you have to think about where to use which new abilities in order to progress further.
Which is something that doesn't happen in FromSoft's Souls games btw.
I don't think genres are hard to define at all. pretty straightforward.
you see what differentiates one genre from another and draw the line.
Souls games without the soul loss/retrieval system are just action RPGs.
because many games before them had basically all the elements that Souls games have, except the soul loss/retrieval mechanic.
Having set respawn points, respawning enemies, RPG elements etc. was done before, and was done in similar ways to Souls games.
they came onto the scene with this new mechanic and defined a new genre.
the difficulty of the games, as well as the set checkpoints instead of automated respawn points were simply a vessel to make the soul loss/retrieval mechanic impactful, since a game that's too easy would make this mechanic trivial.
but knowing that you'll be reset all the way back to the last bonfire, and have to work your way back to your current location is what builds the tension in them.
Metroidvanias without abilities that let you enter new parts of the map are just... Action Adventures.
Igavanias specifically without new abilities unlocking more of the map would just be Action platformers with heavy RPG elements.
WuKong specifically is just a hack n slay akin to Ninja Gaiden, with slightly slower and simpler combat... it has skill trees but no real RPG elements, it has no soul retrieving, not even really interconnected levels like FromSoft souls games. it's a very straightforward hack n slay that happens to have combat that is slightly toned down.
Remnant is simply a coop Shooter with heavy RPG elements. a genre mix basically. but it has almost nothing in common with FromSoftware's souls games other than elements that every game with heavy RPG elements has in common with them.
it doesn't even really have the same feel to it. you do not need to carefully proceed through nee environments due to every enemy being possibly deady, or due to traps and suprise enemy attacks possibly waiting behind every corner, like it is often the case in Souls games.
in Remnant you just run and gun through levels with your friends and mow down often dozens of enemies at once while flinging around weapon abilities here and there.
it's extremely comparable to Diablo in that way, with the biggest difference being the loot system, which is randomised like in Diablo, but with set weapon stats instead of random ones.
I truly feel that if you removed the Shard checkpoints with simple teleport icons on the map, it would still functionally be the same game, but noone would make the connection to Souls games.
it's a very superficial connection, as systems like the Shards are just like coffins in Symphony of the Night or Save Stations in Metroid... they fill you back up and respawn you... that's not a Souls thing, that's a Metroid thing lol
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MiguelItUp
Member
Couldn't agree more. Regardless, difficulty isn't a genre.
Boss Mog
Member
I'm with you OP, I much prefer fast action games like Ninja Gaiden, Nier Automata and Bayonetta to the slow, clunky action games like the Souls series. Fast action games don't punish you for being on the offensive and pro-active in the fights. In Souls games you're mostly re-active, you need to wait for the enemies to do their slow, clunky move so you can dodge it and then counter-attack with your own slow, clunky move. The difficulty lies in how slow and clunky everything is.
DelireMan7
Member
Show me on the doll where FromSoftware touched you.
(I don't get the Fromsoft comparison, they are doing completely different games for me. Once again I feel like it's a case of "FromSoftware = hard game and nothing else")
killatopak
Member
Itagaki still hates on Tekken which Miyazaki doesn't. I'm on From's side.
Blood Borne
Member
Replaying Ninja Gaiden 2 Black definitely reinforced my feelings that Sekiro > Ninja Gaiden.
Kings Field
Member
NeverYouMind
Member
It was just a rivalry to keep things interesting. No real animosity between the two.