the_sun_king
Member
I can't tell apart some of the sarcastic posts from the scary-to-even-think-anyone-could-be-crazy-to-agree-with-anything-Trump-says posts.
Trump lays out his immigration reform platform
- Thread starter Wreav
- Start date
- Status
I really don't get this H1B-argument. I mean I get the criticism that it could be exploitive if the one getting the VISA is very tied up to the employer but I don't get the argument against such a system from a US perspective.
If a person gets a highly-skilled job and will contribute much to the tax base of the US w/o costing a country a dime up until then (education, childcare, infrastructure etc) why would the US be so interested in stopping it?
It's so weird to hear a recipient of brain drain so interested in crushing it when most other anglosphere countries seem to let in everybody with a STEM degree and a qualified job lined up.
Is there like a 50% unemployment rate amongst US STEM graduates or what's the big issue?
If a person gets a highly-skilled job and will contribute much to the tax base of the US w/o costing a country a dime up until then (education, childcare, infrastructure etc) why would the US be so interested in stopping it?
It's so weird to hear a recipient of brain drain so interested in crushing it when most other anglosphere countries seem to let in everybody with a STEM degree and a qualified job lined up.
Is there like a 50% unemployment rate amongst US STEM graduates or what's the big issue?
cpp_is_king
Member
Should we just merge with Mexico then? Let Mexico be the 51st state? Probably should include Guatemala, El Salvador, and a few others then as states as well.
It doesn't make sense that one subset of people can take advantage of us so easily but others are stuck living in war-torn syria, or poverty stricken north korea.
Bottom line is that if there's going to be a law, then enforce the law. Otherwise why is it a law? Makes no sense.
If they want to be born in the world's strongest superpower, let them come over here legally, like the other 7 billion people in the world have to do if they want to have that same advantage.
Gentleman Jack
Member
The 14th Amendment is also a law. But you're probably only wanting to keep the laws that align with your argument instead of making a sincere 'law and order' philosophical stand.
JesseEwiak
Member
Part of the problem is you can pay say, an Indian or other foreign STEM graduate much less than an American graduate, especially if the company is picking up housing costs and such.
cpp_is_king
Member
Right, I'm talking about kicking people out who are here illegally, and preventing them from getting here illegally in the first place.
Besides, just because something is an amendment doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. I don't agree with the 14th Amendment the same way I (and I suspect most of the people in this thread) don't agree with the 2nd Amendment. But to keep this simple, I'll settle for just getting rid of the ones who are here illegally and making it harder to get here illegally in the first place.
onadesertedisland
Member
So will this finally convince his supporters he is a joke candidate? When pressed for his plan on a very important issue, he answers like a 9th grader.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
lmao good luck with that Trump
this dude is just a massive clown
this dude is just a massive clown
Gentleman Jack
Member
He's blowing racist dogwhistles left and right because it resonates with his supporters, this won't deter them one bit.
M1ch04c4n0
Banned
You can't make it harder, just more inconvenient.
As many say, this would only encourage illegal immigration more, and then make people illegally there take whatever measures necessary to remain untouched. In a country where getting a gun is just a trip to the super market, that is not a wise decision.
There have been a lot of claims that the IT industry abuses the H1B policy by firing senior (well-paid) American employees and replacing them with underpaid foreign employees. There was a story about this on public radio recently where a guy talked about how he had to train his H1B replacement before he got layed off.
You also need to understand that the H1B is a temporary VISA and can be revoked by the company, which gives them tremendous power over the employees. This allows them to pay below-market salaries, because the employee either has to take it or get sent back to their home country. At-will employment is bad enough in the US without also giving your boss the ability to have you deported. This also has the effect of driving market-rates down for US employees too. It would be an entirely different dynamic if we were offering fast-tracked permanent residency or citizenship to these people. Then they are able to properly participate in the labor market and their wealth actually stays in the US rather than going back to their home country when the H1B expires.
I am all for fast-tracking citizenship for any non-citizen who graduates from a US university with a STEM PhD, but H1Bs are a different story, and there is a very real moral hazard associated with them.
EDIT:
Here's the link to that radio story I mentioned:
http://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/to-the-point/are-h-1b-visas-costing-american-jobs
There are plenty of cherry picker jobs available for every american. go for it unemployed natural americans!
Unknown One
Member
They only use that logic when it's not in their favor. When they got power, they'll try to enforce it on a Federal level.
It's all talk.
So is Citizens United under the first amendment but that doesn't mean anything. It's a bad law that should be removed.
Same argument can be used here. It is true that people use the constitution like it is some holy book only when it suits them.
The jokester goes all out
Against the constitution (birthright), sounds like a much greater expense on taxpayer (detain illegals, freakin wall wtf) and simply very Trump like
Basically this bro is going to screw the nation and then go back to his billionaire playboyish life as expected
Against the constitution (birthright), sounds like a much greater expense on taxpayer (detain illegals, freakin wall wtf) and simply very Trump like
Basically this bro is going to screw the nation and then go back to his billionaire playboyish life as expected
MHWilliams
Member
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Where is that beautiful door he was talking about in the debates?
The normal process that people go through I suppose.
All joking aside, it will never happen even if people somehow elected Donald Trump. Best not think about such complicated things and just enjoy the show.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
The big issues are that H1Bs are being used to drive down wages throughout the tech industry and they're being used to displace American workers from positions that they are wholly unqualified for. The entire process starts from a position of dishonesty: employers who are looking for a short-term way to reduce costs post positions with requirements that are functionally impossible to meet in order to justify their request for visas. One they get them, they fill those positions with H1B workers who have zero leverage in the process and will work for 30-50% of the market wage. A more insidious trend has started in which H1Bs outright replace American counterparts in spite of the obvious fact that the visa application was invalid (How can you say that the position couldn't be filled by an American when it was, in fact, filled by an American before?) They'll hire 2-3 H1Bs and still end up with less productivity than before.
One could reasonably ask "Well Shao, if they're capable of doing the work for 30-50% of the market rate, isn't the rate too high?" The problem is that they're almost uniformly incapable of doing the work and come from countries with horrific standards of living. I interview a lot of people and I can immediately recognize an H1B resume even if they don't list their status on the document itself. They're always a melange of protocols and certifications that, upon examination, they almost certainly cheated to get (A CCNA who doesn't know what subnetting, an MCSE who doesn't know what Group Policy is, etc.) They're the ones on TechNet asking how to promote a domain controller or reset a Windows service.
They're a cancer on one of the few remaining industries that pays a reasonably competitive wage.
We have a chance to vote for more Bush, too!
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
No, I'm quite sure he was talking about a literal door.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
People laugh, but being tough on immigration issues has bolstered right wing parties across the EU. Dems could shoot themselves in the foot without a solid alternative plan.
Officerrob
Banned
Because this is a solid plan?
That is true. Even if the nationalist parties generally speaking get around 15-25% of the vote, they have managed to influence the entire political landscape.
I wonder how well Trump would do against someone like Sanders. Trump s a charismatic personality who will just attack relentlessly and rile up the masses with his incendiary rhetoric. People like his confidence, the first debate broke all records only because of him.
It doesn't matter how pragmatic or sensible the policy itself is, everything is about branding and willing to stick to your guns. That is why Bush was re-elected.
cpp_is_king
Member
Just curious, do you support gun control? Because if so that makes you "against the Constitution" too
The U.S. isn't Europe.
We have 300+ million people, Obama destroyed Romney in 2012 when it came to the minority vote.
More registered democrats than republicans. Trump might be riling up the right wing hardliners but he's also riling up minority voters which mainly vote democratic.
I could very well see minorities voting in record numbers this upcoming election just to send a message to the Republican Party.
Amory
Member
It's something.
This is clearly an issue that people want addressed. Democrats should probably put something together.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
its sitting on boehner's desk, collecting dust
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Abbott got elected on a slogan as vague as "turn back the boats".
You don't need nuance to appeal to racist fucks.
Trump is not going to use these talking points, should he by some miracle win the Republican nomination. He is a showman and knows his audience. Right now he tries to maneuver through the conservative landscape. He even challenged Hannity on Fox and defended planned parenthood and simultaneously attacked Bush for his recent comments.
Right now he is obviously the court jester. But...
"There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;" Crazier things have happened and can you imagine how glorious it would be to follow this show for over one year. In one month he has already doxxed one US Senator, called McCain a loser, Perry a pretentious idiot and so on.
Joel Was Right
Member
The constitutional amendment to the birthright citizenship is something that would garner a lot of interesting discussions I reckon.
cpp_is_king
Member
Immigration reform appeals to plenty of people that aren't racist. But it's always nice to demonize people you don't agree with, helps you sleep better at night.
Officerrob
Banned
Sure, but those racist fucks were always going to vote Republican.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Politicians that advocate for it shouldn't use racist terminology then.
I can see rational people being concerned about lax immigration control, but you can't tell me that the way that politicians frame the issue aren't inherently racist.
Officerrob
Banned
Seems to be working well for Trump
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I think I misread your single comment. Going over the rest of your posts it doesn't read like what I said.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It get's it's reputation since so many use it for that purpose.
The reality is, border and immigration is useful control a country has. It helps control the wage floor among other things. On it's face value it's not a bad thing, and a level of control is needed for a country to function properly.
It unfortunately gets misused politically to various peoples benefit and disadvantage. I'm not well versed enough on the economics and socioeconomics of what level of immigration would be acceptable. Sadly the discussion rarely goes in that direction.
j_k_redtail
Member
Consider the optics of this. First we build a wall, then we arrest illegal immigrants en masse. Then where would we put these people? In concentration camps? It's not just unfeasible; it's perverse.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I favor immigration reform, making immigrants citizens. I really don't see many people advocating for border security and limiting immigration using anything other than xenophobia.
EekumBokum
Member
Wow at end birthright citizenship.
Just... mind-boggling.
Just... mind-boggling.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
They never were, its just we looked the other way for Europeans.
We had Asian exclusion laws, anti mexian immigration laws, quotas for non-white countries
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked