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[Swagballs717]

I am really not a fan of how muted the colors are in the Crazy Taxi game we saw. You wanna bring back the Dreamcast era, you gotta make the colors really pop

 

[Crayon]

Well that's like your opinion and stance, not exactly what was being discussed. I'll at least say if "it's just the established status quo" was good enough then Sony would have never done so well in the first place. But sure we can all believe all Sony marketing/PR blitz was in vain & they'd win anyway.

I don't think it was status quo at that point. It kind of is these days. I'm saying back then the PS1 was a phenomenon and at the time DC was out there were still bangers coming out for PS1. It didn't feel like ancient history at all, while Saturn did. The PS1, in the flesh, did far more damage than the PS2.

How much of the general public at that time was tuned in to all these rumors and speculation? Meanwhile how many just went to the store or turned on the TV or opened a magazine to see Wipeout 3, Tony hawk, GT2, Crash 3, Spyro, FF8...

I think the sentiment of buyers when it came time to open the wallet was right where you see it; they largely weren't going to give DC a chance and that's sad to look back on. The difference is I see the cause as being more to do with their feelings about the past and present than the future.

 

[Frayed Ends of Sanity]

The head start had nothing to do with it. The PS2 soundly trounced the competition, including Nintendo. Sega had terrible timing and they were already mostly dead before the Dreamcast even launched. The failure of the Saturn had financially crippled them and they hobbled into the Dreamcast generation half-dead. The quality of the games didn’t matter. They simply didn’t have a chance against PS2. The games weren’t the problem.

The other problem was there were multiple higher ups in the company that wanted Sega to go third party and dump the dreamcast. I forgot when but there was a change of power I think in 2000 or early 2001 and the new president was one of the few in favor of going third party

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

but the overly positive of the unreleased PS2 is the second coming of gaming jesus that makes everything else obsolette and looks like CG in real time and next gen starts when it releases and so on and so forth fud, so folks waited for that instead of the DC which was seen as a half step because of it.

wrong. As far as I know people were buying millions of PS1 and N64, Dreamcast collecting dust in the store.

Which proved to be way better than that and it took years and millions poured in AAA development for PS2 to really get ahead and start showing better results long after DC's death.

I think I lived another reality parallel to the one you describe. Tekken Tag was beautiful with relief effects, shadows that mold to the relief, snow during gameplay, lots of grass. Have you ever seen grass on the Dreamcast? Tekken Tag is absolutely the first ps2 game man.
Ridge Race V featured detailed cars with individually rendered polygonal wheels, volumetric lighting , Dreamcast never did that.
SSX at 60fps you know the PS2 can make snow textures better than the Dreamcast ever dreamed of, Onimusha Warlords again 60fps, main character 10,000 polygons. The Bouncer had ragdoll. Dynasty Warriors 2 more than 30 characters on screen 60fps. Unreal Tournament Digital Foundry tested, PS2 version is superior by far. Dark Cloud full 3d rpg, nice draw distance.

the PlayStation 2 was smoking the Dreamcast since March 2000.

Not that different to how Saturn was treated vs PlayStation when they were actually quite close in results in the first years (I mean, Tomb Raider launched on it even if considered a tad worse yet is one of the pillars of PS success) and Saturn had its strengths too. But marketing and hype and movie playback chose not only the victors but also the degree of humiliation.

lol the technical capabilities of the Playstation were real, you don't need marketing to realize that the console is more capable in textures, frame rate, shadows, lighting, transparencies and models than the Sega Saturn. In other words, everything that makes a 3D game beautiful is better rendered on a Playstation. People are not blind or influenceable zombies, marketing can be exaggerated but it needs to be grounded in reality.

 

[NeverYouMind]

I found these in the Sega Community thread and thought that this thread could use them:

 

[Alexios]

wrong.

Well that settles it, great argument, lol. Onimusha Warlords, lol, pre-rendered backgrounds much? Great showcase to pad your pitiful list with I guess, very telling indeed. UT, lmao, a crap port on both systems, great choice. Guess games like Grandia II and MDK2 didn't exist in your parallel reality. TTT arenas were simpler than DOA2's/VF3tb's as endless flats disjointed from a pretty background, character models were comparable to the former but indeed Namco's great art direction, materials and effects were taken a step further after their practice with Soulcalibur. However, for all its tag focus characters were always only 2 on screen at a time as folks disappeared in combination moves/tagging out where in DOA2 you often saw 3 at once on screen for such moves without dropping a frame and it was just a tacked on mode in that game.

Bouncer and other blurjagfest and shit tier games impressed you for sure, as well as anyone else who fell for the emotion engine bullshit and pretended their fantasy is real, yes, I get all that, it's exactly what I explained happened and you denied then showcased.
Ridge Racer V runs at something like 640x224 as other games run at 512x224, hence jagfests, and doesn't even look far beyond the likes of F355 with simple undetailed fantasy cars, but sure, exagerrated unrealistic lights impressed you, I get that.
Guess Dreamcast devs should have standardized half res instead of the common full 640x480 to push more effects that impress you because actually good image quality was deemed unnecessary until Sony told you to care.

Guess you forgot to hype the dual analog stuff that's now become standard when Dreamcast was sent out with just one (and not mention games didn't even use it sensibly for most of that gen so it also didn't matter while DC lived).
Note that I never even said no PS2 launch games looked better than any DC games, just that the difference wasn't what was hyped, it didn't make it obsolette or with no merits of its own or look like CG as hyped.
So going all, this game or that one effect looks better, is not the gotcha you think so at all. Plenty Dreamcast quality games wouldn't/didn't look out of place at all on PS2 since not every game had Kojima's budget/time.

These all (not even including Shenmue etc.) don't look obsolete or a generation behind just because they aren't the generation's best, as PS2 was quickly not the most powerful either (in most ways).

No emulation videos (not 100% sure of SW4, hard to find clips of that game but it's certainly visually pleasing for an S/JRPG). Go back to boycotting Sega until they bring Saturn mini, genius.

Edited to shift the videos/timestamps around. The Skies of Arcadia intro should be watched but the timestamp shows a cool effect (of many casually thrown/never seen again throughout the journey). Similarly the intro of F355 is amazing but the Long Beach track is ace (Ridge Racery but real). Etc.​

 

[Dr_Salt]

I am really not a fan of how muted the colors are in the Crazy Taxi game we saw. You wanna bring back the Dreamcast era, you gotta make the colors really pop

It is probably very early footage. I hope it looks better on release.

 

[ManaByte]

The head start had nothing to do with it. The PS2 soundly trounced the competition, including Nintendo. Sega had terrible timing and they were already mostly dead before the Dreamcast even launched. The failure of the Saturn had financially crippled them and they hobbled into the Dreamcast generation half-dead. The quality of the games didn’t matter. They simply didn’t have a chance against PS2. The games weren’t the problem.

The PS2 FUD was the biggest problem they faced, but games were a problem. The DC lineup was vastly superior to the PS2 launch which sold just on hype, but EA boycotting it was a MAJOR contributor to its death in the US. Sports games outside fo FIFA are pretty niche now, but in 1999 and 2000 Madden was a system seller and EA withholding it from the DC would be like Activision withholding COD from the PS5 or Xbox today.

 

[SkylineRKR]

wrong. As far as I know people were buying millions of PS1 and N64, Dreamcast collecting dust in the store.


I think I lived another reality parallel to the one you describe. Tekken Tag was beautiful with relief effects, shadows that mold to the relief, snow during gameplay, lots of grass. Have you ever seen grass on the Dreamcast? Tekken Tag is absolutely the first ps2 game man.
Ridge Race V featured detailed cars with individually rendered polygonal wheels, volumetric lighting , Dreamcast never did that.
SSX at 60fps you know the PS2 can make snow textures better than the Dreamcast ever dreamed of, Onimusha Warlords again 60fps, main character 10,000 polygons. The Bouncer had ragdoll. Dynasty Warriors 2 more than 30 characters on screen 60fps. Unreal Tournament Digital Foundry tested, PS2 version is superior by far. Dark Cloud full 3d rpg, nice draw distance.

the PlayStation 2 was smoking the Dreamcast since March 2000.



lol the technical capabilities of the Playstation were real, you don't need marketing to realize that the console is more capable in textures, frame rate, shadows, lighting, transparencies and models than the Sega Saturn. In other words, everything that makes a 3D game beautiful is better rendered on a Playstation. People are not blind or influenceable zombies, marketing can be exaggerated but it needs to be grounded in reality.

You will only get a laugh my friend. Despite you being correct. I was there many times.

I loved the DC and I wanted it to succeed, but at the same time I felt the PS2 actually did some impressive things from day one and was kind of shrugged off for being an underpowered system with no games for its first year. The DC usually had a more clearer picture, but also less impressive geometry. DC had 480p for those with VGA too.

TTT as you mentioned looked actually very good on PS2, esp the improved NA version. It was a game readied within 6 months to meet launch. But the effects on the grass stage, the pedestrians in the background, the fact it rendered 4 fighters, the overall lighting was superior to most things I saw on DC. The animations of SC were better, but this was true in the arcade as well. TTT was also the same game as the arcade, which was an enhanced T3. It played the same and had similar animations, which was its purpose. Tekken was just different to SC. DF is very fond of TTT too, which pushed up to 2.4 million poly's compared to SC at 1 million tops.




SSX I mentioned before too, it smokes many DC games. And don't forget FIFA 2001. the grass, shadows, players, stadiums.. it looked a notch above what DC usually delivered. These were launch titles. The reply is usually that DC had less time on the market, which is true, but I can't see DC ever producing PS2 levels of geometry. After one year on the JP market the PS2 received games like GT3. But for me it was already obvious well before, with games like SSX, Bouncer, Kessen etc showing very particular things.

 

[Silver Wattle]

I admit I haven't read about the specifics, but are they just bringing back a bunch of old Devs and making games based on old cult classics, or are they making new IP?

 

[cireza]

You will only get a laugh my friend. Despite you being correct. I was there many times.

I loved the DC and I wanted it to succeed, but at the same time I felt the PS2 actually did some impressive things from day one and was kind of shrugged off for being an underpowered system with no games for its first year. The DC usually had a more clearer picture, but also less impressive geometry. DC had 480p for those with VGA too.

TTT as you mentioned looked actually very good on PS2, esp the improved NA version. It was a game readied within 6 months to meet launch. But the effects on the grass stage, the pedestrians in the background, the fact it rendered 4 fighters, the overall lighting was superior to most things I saw on DC. The animations of SC were better, but this was true in the arcade as well. TTT was also the same game as the arcade, which was an enhanced T3. It played the same and had similar animations, which was its purpose. Tekken was just different to SC. DF is very fond of TTT too, which pushed up to 2.4 million poly's compared to SC at 1 million tops.




SSX I mentioned before too, it smokes many DC games. And don't forget FIFA 2001. the grass, shadows, players, stadiums.. it looked a notch above what DC usually delivered. These were launch titles. The reply is usually that DC had less time on the market, which is true, but I can't see DC ever producing PS2 levels of geometry. After one year on the JP market the PS2 received games like GT3. But for me it was already obvious well before, with games like SSX, Bouncer, Kessen etc showing very particular things.

Wow, a game released more than a year after Soul Calibur looks marginally better, who would have thought... And you would still have to see these features over the shitty, blurry picture of the PS2. What's the point of pushing more polygons if people can barely see them ?

Happened back then on CRT, and still happens today. What will happen if you plug a Dreamcast to an HD TV and a PS2 to a HD TV ? Well the result is quite simple. Dreamcast will get superbly converted to HDMI (using an Akura Box for example) and render an immaculate picture. Good luck to get something decent on PS2. That console was such a nightmare in terms of hardware desing anyway. Even modern days emulators can't provide V-Sync and low input lag at the same time, you have to pick one or the other...

PS2 was a more powerful and capable hardware on paper, that's the least you would expect for a console released later. Still, the DC was better in many aspects, which are essential to me and many other players : quality textures, clean picture and high quality video signal.

 

[ManaByte]

Wow, a game released more than a year after Soul Calibur looks marginally better, who would have thought... And you would still have to see these features over the shitty, blurry picture of the PS2. What's the point of pushing more polygons if people can barely see them ?

Happened back then on CRT, and still happens today. What will happen if you plug a Dreamcast to an HD TV and a PS2 to a HD TV ? Well the result is quite simple. Dreamcast will get superbly converted to HDMI (using an Akura Box for example) and render an immaculate picture. Good luck to get something decent on PS2. That console was such a nightmare in terms of hardware desing anyway. Even modern days emulators can't provide V-Sync and low input lag at the same time, you have to pick one or the other...

PS2 was a more powerful and capable hardware on paper, that's the least you would expect for a console released later. Still, the DC was better in many aspects, which are essential to me and many other players : quality textures, clean picture and high quality video signal.

The PS2 version of DOA2 (which was developed on NAOMI and Itakagi was given only 2 1/2 months to port it to the PS2), depressed him so much he went on an Armageddon bender:

Itagaki's depression-fueled Armageddon/Aerosmith bender

Did you think it was weird that Dead or Alive games often featured totally out-of-place Aerosmith songs? We always did, but that music choice was fully, definitively justified by Tomonobu Itagaki in a speech at DICE 2012.Itagaki explained that the first PS2 release of Dead or Alive 2 (which only...

www.engadget.com

The game had relatively low-quality, jagged graphics and a lack of extra content. Itagaki became depressed about the unfinished game. "I thought I would quit making games," he said. "Some of the staff, including me, were so depressed by this fact." In this state, he stayed home for "three or four months," drinking and repeatedly watching ... Armageddon, singing along to the sappy "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing" with his daughter, which he admitted was a "stupid life." "If I close my eyes now and recall Armageddon, tears still come out," he said.

 

[Shifty1897]

Are Valkyria Chronicles 5 and a Skies of Arcadia Remake edgy?
For the sake of getting them made, can they be?

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I loved the DC and I wanted it to succeed, but at the same time I felt the PS2 actually did some impressive things from day one and was kind of shrugged off for being an underpowered system with no games for its first year. The DC usually had a more clearer picture, but also less impressive geometry. DC had 480p for those with VGA too.

TTT as you mentioned looked actually very good on PS2, esp the improved NA version. It was a game readied within 6 months to meet launch. But the effects on the grass stage, the pedestrians in the background, the fact it rendered 4 fighters, the overall lighting was superior to most things I saw on DC. The animations of SC were better, but this was true in the arcade as well. TTT was also the same game as the arcade, which was an enhanced T3. It played the same and had similar animations, which was its purpose. Tekken was just different to SC. DF is very fond of TTT too, which pushed up to 2.4 million poly's compared to SC at 1 million tops.


SSX mentioned before too, it smokes many DC games. And don't forget FIFA 2001. the grass, shadows, players, stadiums.. it looked a notch above what DC usually delivered. These were launch titles.

Fifa 2001 yeh many games. DC was unfortunately surpassed very quickly, hardcore Dreamcast fans cling to 480p as a lifeline, At that time, 480i resolution was rare on the N64 and PS1 but common on the Dreamcast in S-video, the PS2 was completely in line with this trend. UT for example has similar resolution and textures to the Dreamcast but surpasses it in geometry and lighting. RECX has similar visuals in S-video that's a consensus, hell RECV is one of DC's greatest graphics, it was equaled in quality and surpassed in content. When Sony finally made 480p available from the launch of Tekken 4, then games like Burnout 2, Guilty Gear XX owe nothing to Dreamcast quality, on the contrary games like Burnout 2 are far beyond the capabilities of the Dreamcast.

 

[ManaByte]

When Sony finally made 480p available from the launch of Tekken 4

Tekken 4 didn't launch on the PS2 until two years into the generation.

 

[SF Kosmo]

The thing that always made Sega different was their willingness to gamble on new IP. Yeah, I am excited to see JSR and Crazy Taxi come back, but if they really wanted to show me they're the Sega that made those games in the first place, they'd need to take chances on something new.

I suppose this is just an outgrowth of how expensive and risky game dev has gotten. It's not just Sega.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

There is so much stuff Sega can bring to the table. But most of it requires a serious budget - otherwise it will be at AA level at best.

Even the current 5 cool games do not look like AAA releases at all. They look cool of course, but Golden Axe looks like a game from Xbox 360/One era, Streets of Rage also does not look great, Crazy Taxi looks like a mobile game. Jet Set Radio looks cool and Shinobi looks really good (but essentially an indie).

 

[Dolomite]

All if that noise just to NOT announce a new Virtua Fighter is crazy.

 

[ManaByte]

All if that noise just to NOT announce a new Virtua Fighter is crazy.

It's in the topic of the thread you're replying to and the OP. Sega's working on it, but it's not ready to be revealed/announced yet.

 

[Alexios]

the fact it rendered 4 fighters

Only 2 were rendered in TTT, that and more "facts" (lies/bs) from people wondering why they get laughs (ignoring the actual full replies they get to snipe in this way and avoid actually having a coherent conversation based on actual facts). It was (PS3 gen) TTT2 that added simultaneous character moves as in DOA2. You'd know this and not fumble if you read the discussion you wanted to chime in on (or watched the video you posted just because of its blind praise). Again, I never said PS2 launch games didn't showcase things DC couldn't do, just that it didn't make DC games look like PS1 games as they also looked great still, as did many PS2 games through the generation that didn't (need to) show its full power (if DC games ever did) and it certainly didn't look like CG movies as was hyped to snipe DC (except when it was CG as in the Onimusha cited as example of its power, lol).

Context/proof for asset polycounts in various DC/PSP/PS2/Naomi 2 (!) games: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...y-with-interesting-numbers.39321/post-2256450 - DC could have handled many of their games with some changes, they didn't always have more complex but better made assets.

The above comparisons are all the more impressive knowing DOA2 could show 3 characters at once without missing a beat as unlike TTT tag outs and combination moves/throws didn't have one character quickly disappear for the other one to drop in (but tag was only in one smaller arena).

It's well documented SC was a very technically modest Dreamcast title (you keep talking about how TTT was based on a low end arcade game and made very fast and all as if to excuse it, ignoring Namco's experience with SC surely helped them perform better and that game was very much in the same situation without any previous next generation fighting game for Namco to gain experience with) that stands next to far more technically advanced games like DOA2 (with far more polygons on par with or higher than TTT and far from SC numbers, so I dunno why you/DF claim that SC was its cutting edge) because games weren't and aren't tech specs alone, hence many DC games still looking great next to PS2. Even the often panned VF3tb throws way more polygons per second than SC, again showing tech specs aren't everything, especially for such pioneering times (as VF3 was light years beyond anything in freaking 1996, but still looked crude next to a lower polycount game like SC in 1999, with or without the minor DC downgrades - joints were particularly tricky at the time, before Tekken 3, though it still did things SC didn't and Tekken is praised for having over it in your video). But, they didn't think to have some polygons with grass alphas and moving vertices to lean and sway so it all sucked even if it did things like say, tree leaves on the ground (of a fully modeled 3D arena affecting player moves/stances with IK) floating around by the fighters' movements.

It should be noted this or that effect done in ways that take advantage of a specific architecture making them impossible on other systems isn't the be all end all of power either, the PS3 TTT remaster/port had to change a few things because of this but clearly the PS3 is more powerful than PS2, lol. Likewise because another architecture didn't last/noone cared to invest budget and dev time to figure out how to leverage it in ways other games didn't doesn't mean it was exhausted. If just one game, DOA2, wasn't made then we'd think VF3tb/SC are the best DC could do and that'd be so wrong.

And yes, some companies kept making improvements when given more time, as TTT's later regional releases had some (trading jaggies for blur as it still wasn't true progressive scan capable), as DOA2's later Japanese release on DC had some (in actual polycounts, moves and content), as DOA2's various versions that eventually landed on PS2 started crude and ended up excellent surpassing the previous (but don't hold a candle to Xbox DOA). Hence folks saying that indeed DC games could have improved more too had it lived longer. Not to the point of reaching PS2 obviously, but to surpassing what it had shown up to that point, which was most clearly of the same generation as PS2. Especially since half resolution was apparently a-ok with people so they could have freed up way more power using this and covering it with blur or whatever folks found so next gen/CG-like.

The timeline went like this (it's only three posts you're referring to, you could have read them and spare me the trouble):

Someone (me) said DC wasn't as far behind PS2 as was hyped before launch until later in the generation/in AAA development, it didn't make DC obsolete/a gen behind or look like CG (unlike that Tekken video constantly said it did) while it lived as was hyped/marketed/advertised.

Someone (the client that you rushed to defend, sir lawyer) named early PS2 games/effects that in their opinion look better than DC games, responding as if it was said no early PS2 games do anything DC couldn't (or as if that does make them look a gen behind?), which didn't happen.

Someone (me) reiterates the original point, shows games that easily stand with the PS2 library, not only at its launch but throughout the generation, while stressing that they aren't the best graphics of the generation (which often aren't on PS2 either) and stressing that yes, TTT was beautiful.

Someone (you) comes in defense of their client and to reiterate TTT's strengths, excuse its weaknesses and add some blatant lies like the pre-release PS2 hype, responding as if the original post that part of the discussion started with was saying DC was as/more powerful, which didn't happen.

Congrats, between hating DC, adoring PS2 to the point of lying about game features, victimizing yourself & dismissing those you argue against as only presenting "laughs" and not real points you can't have a conversation about this like a normal in the know gamer instead of a fanboy/troll/hater.

it was equaled in quality and surpassed in content.

Code: Veronica X was on DC too & such added content has nothing to do with platforms. Again, nobody said PS2 was less powerful to even make the point it was "equaled" (though CVX on PS2 is 480i) visually a year later a counter argument, you're arguing with your fantasies despite quoting me...

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

PS2 was a more powerful and capable hardware on paper, that's the least you would expect for a console released later. Still, the DC was better in many aspects, which are essential to me and many other players : quality textures, clean picture and high quality video signal.

I disagree that Playstation 2 has a lower texture capacity than the Dreamcast. This is an urban legend that was started by Dreamcast fans based on some cheap DC-PS2 ports, and some ignorance about PS2 hardware that ended up immortalized .

When they were both on the market in 2000, the PS2 never seemed out of line with the DC in the texture department. I only realized this supposed weakness of the PS2 after some Dreamcast fans pointed it out to me, why ? Why is it not self evident, and why is it not self evident ? simply because it is not true.

TTT- for example had textures of wood, clothing and stones similar to their real-world versions.
SSX- gorgeous illuminated snow textures.
Unreal Tournament same textures as the Dreamcast but with better lighting effects (fun fact, unlike other early games UT doesn't have shimmering) Soldier of Fortune - in this game DC has higher resolution textures but has fewer textures per scene this means that the DC can only apply its best textures in low polygonal budget games like Quake 3 (10k-15k polys per scene @30-15fps or max 450k pps) however it's not worth it, the ps2 version can display almost the same quality of textures, higher polygonal count per scene with frame rate 37-60fps. Again, this is an early game.

Honestly, the PS2 does noticeably better water, grass, asphalt, leather, glass, snow and metal effects than the Dreamcast, so how can DC have better textures?

clean picture

I don't know what you mean by that. Tekken 4, Outrun 2006, Guilty Gear Isuka, KoF '94 Re-Bout, Crash: Mind over Mutant, Burnout 2 and Van Helsing do any of these games have enough clean picture?

 

[Alexios]

Quake 3 on PS2 can go much lower than 37 (or even 30) fps, don't lie like a child again. Peaking at 60 at the best case thus increasing the average framerate to a decent number (which you posted as minimum on purpose as you probably got it off this video) doesn't mean it feels good to play. It would probably benefit from a 30 fps cap as on DC for stability (as Sega Rally 2 does on DC with the 30 fps "cheat"). It's not great on either but at least you could play it online on DC (and with mkb, also not sure if framerate would be better online without the bot CPU overhead since in smaller maps with 1 bot DC maintains 30fps where PS2 wildly flunctuates from 30 to 60 again). Also it was ported by different studios which optimized different things, reduced polygons or effects or textures in different places to a different degree, so it's not an 1:1 comparison (and benchmarks with random gameplay are certainly never 1:1 since hanging just a few seconds more in a problematic area or having an extra bot or two on screen will severely affect results, as will the opposite). Not sure what point you're trying to make still. Did someone say no DC/PS2 multiplatform games are better on the latter? Especially ports that aren't great on either? There were also games that are better on DC, from Grandia II to MDK2, looking better, with more effects and running better. And? Should someone post that as proof of DC being in any way more powerful than PS2? Of course not. Hell, there are games DC and PS2 do better than PC (back then or even still if they don't have settings to take advantage of better hardware). So the opposite doesn't exactly work either (but again, nobody denied PS2 is so, in most ways at least).

When TTT was made Namco boasted about the material properties they developed for it but let's not pretend it's in any way a photorealistic game that achieved those (impossible) standards and reiterate in 2023 that it looks like the "real-world" (or like CG movies or whatever else false statement marketing hype demanded people accept), don't be dense/don't lie, lol, 2023 games still aren't like real life, nevermind 2012 or 2002, get a grip. In the end it's just a few tiny 15x15 or whatever resolution specular maps with slightly different properties to show a material variation. Microsoft's Xbox got Doom 3, HL2, Halo, Ninja Gaiden, DOA3, Riddick and more aces and is the same generation as PS2 just as DC is the same generation as PS2 & Xbox, no amount of marketing blitz about emotion engine lifelike CG quality made that true, or the Dreamcast last gen or a PlayStation 1.5.

Guilty Gear Isuka is an Atomiswave game. Atomiswave is identical to Dreamcast sans the GD drive. All Atomiswave games were fan-converted to Dreamcast (without the source code or anything so it's not like Quake on DC or Quake 3 on Xbox). If it's a shining PS2 example then DC shines too, duh. Granted even in actual 480p games on PS2 (which are the minority and even 480i games are often in weird lower resolutions and aspect ratios that are then stretched in the final output) the actual video output quality was worse than Dreamcast so yeah, circumstances were far from ideal even when under the hood it pushed similar specs. It did look muddy and brown and monochrome in comparison. Of course when folks nowadays just see how it looks with hardware unavailable at the time to get the raw video output or worse deinterlace it with a fancy converter/upscaler or worse just use emulation to compare thinking it's all the same then the difference isn't great but that's not how things were. It's also because various low resolution post processing style effects were used for blur/AA/lighting/mood/cgi look/whatever made them think it's a good choice and folks lap it up.

Naming 480p games on PS2 doesn't make all the 480i or less disappear and even still many of those are considered among its best for all the other things they do while still having that deficiency among others. People can look past all that but apparently not the lack of some effects on DC.

Also, it's a spec fact that PS2 textures are only 16 colors for 4-bits and 256 colors for 8-bits palleted textures, that expert art directors worked around these limitations to great effect eventually (again with time and budget, see FFXII) doesn't change this. Again it only shows that there was room for DC to degrade its visuals to match PS2 output in turn freeing up more resources for use elsewhere to not fall as far behind (ie, use lower quality textures with its superior compression to free up vram for other things), but most developers chose not to do that (even when they could have done this with no loss in quality because their textures sucked anyway and there would be no perceived difference in the final output) just as most chose to run at 640x480 even if they could have gone for less. Another reason there was so much aliasing with PS2 is the lack of mipmapping, which might sound like a good thing, no lower detail textures based on distance, but its purpose is to reduce the shimmering evident in so many PS2 games because the resolution is too low to resolve that detail properly at a distance which means a blurrier version ends up providing a better image quality overall. The Shenmue games on Dreamcast apparently didn't make use of mipmapping showing their ancient development roots and are some of the most jagged/shimmering games on the platform despite running at full resolution as usual, it really makes a big difference (and apparently also affects performance, developers think with mipmapping they could maintain 30fps more, they also did all kinds of other calculations that could have been done away with like the physics mini games being affected by weather and the moon being an actual model correctly lit for the given date).

 

[Crayon]

I gotta ask, by 'ps2 fud', are we talking about fud in the typical sense of the word? Like all of you I've hade this convo a million times but I don't recall the term being applied. Usually it was 'ps2 hype' or something to that effect.

 

[cireza]

When they were both on the market in 2000, the PS2 never seemed out of line with the DC in the texture department. I only realized this supposed weakness of the PS2 after some Dreamcast fans pointed it out to me, why ? Why is it not self evident, and why is it not self evident ? simply because it is not true.

PS2 having blurry monochromatic textures, aliasing and shimmering that destroys your eyes was precisely what people got.

Sure developers eventually managed to output something decent in terms of visual presentation out of this thing, but it certainly wasn't straightforward as every early game was painful to look at. I still remember FFX displayed on my friend's CRT, and the feeling it was literally throwing daggers at my eyes.

You can't see it ? Or can't see it anymore ? Great for you I guess. Dreamcast displays much better textures and a much better picture, these are facts. PS2 has other things going for it, but certainly these two are superior on Dreamcast period.

 

[Kyo]

When they were both on the market in 2000, the PS2 never seemed out of line with the DC in the texture department.

That's just a ridiculous statement.

 

[ManaByte]

I gotta ask, by 'ps2 fud', are we talking about fud in the typical sense of the word? Like all of you I've hade this convo a million times but I don't recall the term being applied. Usually it was 'ps2 hype' or something to that effect.

Peter Moore is still angry about Sony “FUDing” the Dreamcast

Peter Moore is still angry about Sony "FUDing" the Dreamcast, which was Sega's last home console before shifting to third-party publishing.

venturebeat.com

20+ years on there is a lot of revisionist history people are pushing about how things were back then.

 

[Astray]

A lot of the shown games don't look like something I'd invest in tbh.

Are Valkyria Chronicles 5 and a Skies of Arcadia Remake edgy?
For the sake of getting them made, can they be?

A big part of Skies' specialness is that it's a very blue skies series about having an great adventure with your friends and discovering shit on the way. Sort of One Piece-like if you follow that series.

Going edgy would kinda ruin it imo.

 

[Astray]

Peter Moore is still angry about Sony “FUDing” the Dreamcast

Peter Moore is still angry about Sony "FUDing" the Dreamcast, which was Sega's last home console before shifting to third-party publishing.

venturebeat.com

20+ years on there is a lot of revisionist history people are pushing about how things were back then.

What kind of FUD was spread around on the Dreamcast exactly? The article just mentions it without any kind of elaboration on this.

 

[Shifty1897]

A lot of the shown games don't look like something I'd invest in tbh.


A big part of Skies' specialness is that it's a very blue skies series about having an great adventure with your friends and discovering shit on the way. Sort of One Piece-like if you follow that series.

Going edgy would kinda ruin it imo.

Agree, let's just call it "edgy" so Sega will touch the IP again.

 

[Astray]

Agree, let's just call it "edgy" so Sega will touch the IP again.

Skies is probably the only legacy SEGA IP that I care about, it's one of the most unique RPGs out there and is still unmatched in a lot of areas tbh.

 

[Elfstar]

I'm not really buying it. If they were actually returning to DC's "rebellious era", they would've come up with entirely new, fresh games, like they did back then, instead of tossing old ips to a bunch of cheap, no-name western developers or attempting to turn them into soulles live service cash grabs.

 

[SmokedMeat]

The thing that always made Sega different was their willingness to gamble on new IP. Yeah, I am excited to see JSR and Crazy Taxi come back, but if they really wanted to show me they're the Sega that made those games in the first place, they'd need to take chances on something new.

I suppose this is just an outgrowth of how expensive and risky game dev has gotten. It's not just Sega.

In this day and age spending money on a new Crazy Taxi, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, and Shinobi games is a gamble.

Most gamers today didn’t grow up with those.

 

[cireza]

I'm not really buying it. If they were actually returning to DC's "rebellious era", they would've come up with entirely new, fresh games, like they did back then, instead of tossing old ips to a bunch of cheap, no-name western developers or attempting to turn them into soulles live service cash grabs.

Only game to have a recent entry is Streets of Rage. Everything else is basically new at this point.

 

[SmokedMeat]

What kind of FUD was spread around on the Dreamcast exactly? The article just mentions it without any kind of elaboration on this.

That had nothing to do with Sony, and everything to do with Sega.

All Moore needs to do is look at 32X, Sega CD, and Saturn. Sega couldn’t follow up the success they had with the Genesis so their subsequent hardware was poorly supported and short lived.

Meanwhile Sony wasn’t chasing trends or throwing darts at a dartboard. They executed PlayStation perfectly kicking both Sega and Nintendo’s ass, and the buzz for PS2 was enormous.

If you’re a customer which are you going to buy? The sure thing or roll the dice on another Sega flop that you could already see wasn’t getting the big name support?

 

[Dr_Salt]

I'm not really buying it. If they were actually returning to DC's "rebellious era", they would've come up with entirely new, fresh games, like they did back then, instead of tossing old ips to a bunch of cheap, no-name western developers or attempting to turn them into soulles live service cash grabs.

Where are you getting this info from? Not saying its not true just want to know who these no name western devs are.
Last time one of these "no name devs" made a game they made arguably the best SoR game.

Also you missed the "and more" part. This is just phase 1 and announcement of the project. They are also spending a large amount of money on this considering this is the "super game initiative" they were talking about and said the combined budget is something around 800M.

 

[Madonis]

I just want to play that Shinobi game. Everything else is a bonus.

 

[Astray]

That had nothing to do with Sony, and everything to do with Sega.

All Moore needs to do is look at 32X, Sega CD, and Saturn. Sega couldn’t follow up the success they had with the Genesis so their subsequent hardware was poorly supported and short lived.

Meanwhile Sony wasn’t chasing trends or throwing darts at a dartboard. They executed PlayStation perfectly kicking both Sega and Nintendo’s ass, and the buzz for PS2 was enormous.

If you’re a customer which are you going to buy? The sure thing or roll the dice on another Sega flop that you could already see wasn’t getting the big name support?

What I remember is that most magazines were talking about how great the Dreamcast was etc.

I don't remember much criticism of platforms back then, the game journalism scene was still in its infancy and focused far more on just being a product advocate than anything else.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

PS2 having blurry monochromatic textures, aliasing and shimmering that destroys your eyes was precisely what people got.
Dreamcast displays much better textures and a much better picture, these are facts.

My Dreamcast is different from yours. On my Dreamcast Shenmue 1 and 2, MSR, Super Runabot, JSR, HeadHunter in the city, even Virtua Tenis has all these things mentioned (it's worth mentioning) with negative emphasis on shenmue 2, which should in theory be the best built game on the system.

It's a shame that uploading images is broken for me, otherwise I would show that there are dozens of situations where PS2 has undeniably better textures and IQ. but it's not worth insisting, since you don't like the Playstation 2 you'll continue to believe what you want regardless of what I say. I end here.

 

[WhiteWaterM00se]

Sega needs to get a hold of some dev that can HD2D the original Phantasy Star 1-4. Make some modern quality of life adjustments and go from there. That would be amazing.

Since PSO is also mentioned as a rumor, a straight up “old school“ PSO experience to get players in the door and with each year they can add an expansion and branch out. This rumored PSO seems like a “lock’ to be one of their “live service” games if true.

VF, After Burner, Daytona, a larger budget Toejam & Earl, and Sega Sports games all need to come back as well.

 

[Crayon]

Peter Moore is still angry about Sony “FUDing” the Dreamcast

Peter Moore is still angry about Sony "FUDing" the Dreamcast, which was Sega's last home console before shifting to third-party publishing.

venturebeat.com

20+ years on there is a lot of revisionist history people are pushing about how things were back then.

Sony, however, is also excellent at the technique of generating a fear of missing its products. That is one of the reasons the company spends so much money on third-party exclusives like Deathloop, Final Fantasy VII Remake, and the upcoming Final Fantasy XVI.

I'm actually not sure where you stand on this, but this is not fud at all.

 

[SkylineRKR]

What kind of FUD was spread around on the Dreamcast exactly? The article just mentions it without any kind of elaboration on this.

Sony itself didn't spread much FUD I think. But they did tell you to wait for their next generation system, basically like Sega told you to buy the DC.

Is anyone is to blame, its Sega themselves by killing hardware prematurely and not fulfilling promises. Other consumers and some outlets would advise you to wait for PS2 and not get a Dreamcast straight away pointing out at how Saturn was ultimately handled. Which was legit advice, as Sega did fuck up the Saturn and 32x royally and also left the Genesis to die.

We all know how it ended up, after a bit more than a year on the western market Sega already killed the DC.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Sony itself didn't spread much FUD I think. But they did tell you to wait for their next generation system.

They said and no one obeyed, the biggest amount of PSX and N64 sales occurred between 1998-2001 . If some failed during this period, that's not the reason.

 

[ManaByte]

Sony itself didn't spread much FUD I think. But they did tell you to wait for their next generation system, basically like Sega told you to buy the DC.

Is anyone is to blame, its Sega themselves by killing hardware prematurely and not fulfilling promises. Other consumers and some outlets would advise you to wait for PS2 and not get a Dreamcast straight away pointing out at how Saturn was ultimately handled. Which was legit advice, as Sega did fuck up the Saturn and 32x royally and also left the Genesis to die.

We all know how it ended up, after a bit more than a year on the western market Sega already killed the DC.

Had Sega hit the 5 million target (instead 3 million) they probably would’ve fought longer. But they couldn’t hit the 5 million target with people being told not to buy a DC because the PS2 was coming.

 

[Hero_Select]

I bet most of these are going to be mid. It's Sega after all

 

[Crayon]

Had Sega hit the 5 million target (instead 3 million) they probably would’ve fought longer. But they couldn’t hit the 5 million target with people being told not to buy a DC because the PS2 was coming.

Nobody needed to be told that, though. PS1 was a runaway success and saturn dead and gone. People are absolutley succeptable to marketing and whispers but how much of that is really needed to explain the outcome here?

 

[ManaByte]

Nobody needed to be told that, though. PS1 was a runaway success and saturn dead and gone. People are absolutley succeptable to marketing and whispers but how much of that is really needed to explain the outcome here?

I was was working retail during the DC launch. I saw it for myself.

 

[Crayon]

I was was working retail during the DC launch. I saw it for myself.

The fud, right? What did it look like?

 

[ManaByte]

The fud, right? What did it look like?

Back then stores had a VCR that was used to run tapes of game trailers. I had a Japanese DC and I made a tape with Sonic, Soul Calibur, Power Stone, and Sega Rally 2. People were seriously blown away by Sonic and Soul Calibur. It was a generational leap. But there were people who refused to even consider it, and it was like 20% people burned by the 32X and Saturn and like 80% buying into he PS2 sight unseen and buying into he “don’t buy a DC, the PS2 is coming” FUD. That’s what Peter Moore was talking about.

 

[Alexios]

Back then stores had a VCR that was used to run tapes of game trailers. I had a Japanese DC and I made a tape with Sonic, Soul Calibur, Power Stone, and Sega Rally 2. People were seriously blown away by Sonic and Soul Calibur. It was a generational leap. But there were people who refused to even consider it, and it was like 20% people burned by the 32X and Saturn and like 80% buying into he PS2 sight unseen and buying into he “don’t buy a DC, the PS2 is coming” FUD. That’s what Peter Moore was talking about.

Dunno how anyone alive at the time could miss the hype about movie quality 3D graphics in real time (said prior to Dreamcast's western launch as you say sight unseen). Or PS2 being bought by boogie man Hussein of Iraq for military purposes as better/more accessible than supercomputers and depriving red blooded American patriots of their right to buy one by derailing the already too limited to meet demand supply. No fud there, no sir. Or general gaming media being Sony ads front to back (or start to finish for TV shows) instead of covering all platforms if not equally then at least showing the less amount of gems they were getting instead of any junk not on them. Like what? It was all over the place and as with the Iraq shit not confined to gaming related media alone either. Must have lived in some parallel dimension or something as was mentioned earlier. People believed that shit and it was said for people to believe it and not the usual "advert vs reality" like a burger and we were bombarded with it 24/7 in and out of gaming media and it wasn't even close to any kind of truth and spread to kneecap the competition that was raising eyebrows with its real qualities.

 

[Crayon]

Back then stores had a VCR that was used to run tapes of game trailers. I had a Japanese DC and I made a tape with Sonic, Soul Calibur, Power Stone, and Sega Rally 2. People were seriously blown away by Sonic and Soul Calibur. It was a generational leap. But there were people who refused to even consider it, and it was like 20% people burned by the 32X and Saturn and like 80% buying into he PS2 sight unseen and buying into he “don’t buy a DC, the PS2 is coming” FUD. That’s what Peter Moore was talking about.

Dunno how anyone alive at the time could miss the hype about movie quality 3D graphics in real time. Or PS2 being bought in droves by boogie man Hussein of Iraq for military purposes as better/more accessible than supercomputers and depriving red blooded American patriots of their right to buy one of these amazing machines of their own by derailing the already too limited to meet demand availability. No fud there, no sir. Or general gaming media being Sony ads front to back (or start to finish for TV shows) instead of covering all platforms if not equally then at least showing the less amount of gems they were getting instead of any junk not on them. Like what? It was all over the place and as with the Iraq shit not confined to gaming related media alone either. Must have lived in some parallel dimension or something as mentioned earlier.

We were all there and we remember the same things. The PS2 was possibly the most hyped console in history while Saturn didn't make it to the end of the gen. It seems like the only place we disagree is that you guys call it fud and I don't.