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[Alexios]

Reiterating a thing or two because Dreamcast slander & PS2 overhyping is down like it's 1999 with all gaming (and not) media on Sony's advertising payroll (since the previous generation with known results & naive casuals unaware believing bs made them console warriors).

Note that it was never said no PS2 launch games looked better or didn't do anything DC couldn't, just that the difference wasn't as hyped, it didn't make it obsolette or look like CG with human emotions and it took long after DC's death to distance itself more.

These (and others, Shenmues, MSR, SC, Daytona, MDK2, Tokyo Xtreme Racer 2, etc.) weren't a generation behind or bad just because they aren't the era's most advanced & PS2 soon wasn't the highest spec (and then it wasn't all about power, the irony & gall).

Edited the timestamps a bit, Crazy Taxi 2's last mission takes you through a whole city (at impressive speeds & 60 fps), Skies of Arcadia's intro is amazing but the timestamp shows one of many cool effects, F355's intro is sweet but so is the Long Beach course.

But anyway, back to the topic, really hoping for the best though that best probably isn't going to be most of the games shown, maybe with the exception of Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi or if Golden Axe somehow surprises, the others are just obviously not exactly big investments.​

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Dunno how anyone alive at the time could miss the hype about movie quality 3D graphics in real time (said prior to Dreamcast's western launch as you say sight unseen).

the millions of people who bought N64? PSX? Fun fact, the PSX was the best-selling console in 2000 lol. PS2 sales only increased in 2001 when Dreamcast had already pulled the plug.
Dreamcast games 2000: RECV, skies of arcadia, Jet Set Radio, MvC2,PSO, Grandia 2, Doa 2, MSR, Spawn, Ecco the Dolphin, MDK2, Sega GT, Test Drive Le mans, Super Magnect Neo, kof.

Again PSX was the best-selling console in 2000 even N64 outsold (almost) Dreamcast month by month. try to forget Saddam Hussein.

Do you realise that ? people wanted to launch missiles with a cartridge console or have the amazing movie quality, with standard texture warping quality than play Crazy Taxi on the Dreamcast.

 

[Alexios]

PS2 sales only increased in 2001

Wow, really, PS2 sales only increased after it actually launched? Crazy! Indeed, next gen starts when Sony says so was part of the same fud, no shit PS2 didn't sell before then as it hadn't launched in most of the world before the end of 2000 (while in Japan it was selling out). Love how you claim DC had just Crazy Taxi people didn't want too (waiting for the kindergarten retort in how it had many games people didn't want). Oh well, keep derailing threads with your delirious Sega opinions, like that Sega was so different to Saturn's (which sold similarly over more years and games in the market) Sega you love so much you want to boycott them so they make a mini everyone sane knows despite all DC wasn't even doing badly, just not good enough to keep Sega afloat. If gamers find it cool & edgy (enough to try and berate those pointing out that) a system didn't just sell better on its merits but cockblocked competition with marketing overselling the hell out of it sight unseen that's on them, the same folks hyping its success as proof its marketing tactics weren't bs and everything was decided by the others' failures later panned Wii for outselling all on its merits & games

 

[Crayon]

I was so excited for that PS2 i got it home and realized I didn't even own any missiles.

 

[T-0800]

Shinobi is made by the guys who did Streets Of Rage 4, so it will be amazing don't worry.

Day 1.

 

[ManaByte]

Wow, really, PS2 sales only increased after it actually launched? Crazy! Indeed, next gen starts when Sony says it does was part of the same fud, no shit PS2 didn't sell before then as it hadn't launched in most of the world before the end of 2000 (and in Japan it was selling out already). Love how you wanna pretend it had just one game people didn't want too. Oh well, keep derailing threads with your delirious Sega opinions, like that Sega was different to the Saturn (which sold similarly over more years and games too) Sega you love so much you want to boycott them so they make a mini

He sounds like another alt of that guy who used to make giant anti-Sega essays here.

 

[ManaByte]

Dunno how anyone alive at the time could miss the hype about movie quality 3D graphics in real time (said prior to Dreamcast's western launch as you say sight unseen). Or PS2 being bought by boogie man Hussein of Iraq for military purposes as better/more accessible than supercomputers and depriving red blooded American patriots of their right to buy one by derailing the already too limited to meet demand supply. No fud there, no sir. Or general gaming media being Sony ads front to back (or start to finish for TV shows) instead of covering all platforms if not equally then at least showing the less amount of gems they were getting instead of any junk not on them. Like what? It was all over the place and as with the Iraq shit not confined to gaming related media alone either. Must have lived in some parallel dimension or something as was mentioned earlier. People believed that shit and it was said for people to believe it and not the usual "advert vs reality" like a burger and we were bombarded with it 24/7 in and out of gaming media and it wasn't even close to any kind of truth and spread to kneecap the competition that was raising eyebrows with its real qualities.

There is an extensive amount of revisionist history about the console market in both the PSX/Saturn and PS2/GCN/Xbox gen, mostly from people who weren't around for it and see those as "Retro" consoles now. Sega launched the DC in late 1998 in Japan and the system was fighting a phantom console NO ONE had seen for nearly a year. Sony continuously denied they were working on a PS2 until March of 1999 when they confirmed it, but they didn't reveal the console itself until TGS on September 20th, weeks after the Western launch of the DC. Having to compete against a console no one had even seen for nearly a whole year is pretty much the definition of FUD.

That's what really hurt the system in Japan, but in the US a combination of that (again, which is why they missed their 5 million target) and EA's boycott was the death blow.

But in a way DC got its revenge on EA in a small way from the grave as NBA 2K murdered EA's NBA Live series.

 

[deriks]

Roast the fuck out of me and they'll never do it but I'd buy a new Sega console.

Dreamcast 2 confirmed

 

[RickMasters]

Welcome back sega....We been waiting a long time

 

[Fat Frog]

Source code of Saga was lost. A remaster would be near impossible. It'd need to be a ground-up remake.

Panzer Dragoon Creator:

" I stole the source code from Sega, LOL"

1: Futatsugi is stupid for admitting it.

Or

2: Futatsugi has an agreement with Sega for something Panzer Dragoon related.

My guess is #2...

 

[Fat Frog]

All if that noise just to NOT announce a new Virtua Fighter is crazy.

Sega said they want to make a more dramatic new Virtua Fighter...

 

[cireza]

We were all there and we remember the same things. The PS2 was possibly the most hyped console in history while Saturn didn't make it to the end of the gen. It seems like the only place we disagree is that you guys call it fud and I don't.

It wasn't really fud. Sony had basically bought the entire communication scene at that point, and they had bought third party partnerships as well. There wasn't room for competitors to have any relevancy. Namco made Soul Calibur on DC mainly to remember Sony to throw more money at them. They made a fantastic game, thanks Namco, but the intentions were also always clear. Unlike a company like Capcom which really intended on supporting SEGA, and not simply use it as a lever.

Square-Enix are doing the exact same thing currently with Xbox and other platforms, to get more money from Sony by the way.

Sony said to people to keep their money and wait for PS2, despite having no games to show and no exact release date when saying this. They simply had to say that, the deal was already sealed anyway. Of course there were the usual lies and bullshit about what the console was going to be able to do, which was basically a strategy built up with PS1 advertisements anyway (displaying only CG), largely used during PS2 and PS3 era, and something that is still used to this day (specifically the We Believe In Generations only to release cross-gen titles afterwards). These should be considered common strategies for Sony and they brought them where they are right now, which is a pretty comfortable place.

 

[Arsic]

A new Virtua Fighter has me so excited! Jet Set Radio is amazing of course, but I am also so happy that Tekken will stop copying V trigger and 2D fighting games to compete. I am pumped for this game.

You really think a new VF won’t have some kind of super move or come back mechanic ?

 

[Solidus_T]

You really think a new VF won’t have some kind of super move or come back mechanic ?

I think they can make it dramatic for spectators without adding those mechanics. They recently released VF5U for the PS4 and the biggest criticism people had for it was its presentation, sound effects, etc are dated but the core game itself is amazing. From the interview, it sounds like Utsumi wants to keep it more 'realistic' than other fighters while giving some flashy moves for spectators.

While they are at it, SE should also bring back Tobal as well - I can hope! Fun fact: Tobal used the same motion capture studio as Tekken, hence blue sparks being in Tobal games and its successors like Ehrgeiz.

 

[Facism]

Shinobi got me dripping. Hoping they expand on Shinobi 3 systems without going too far away and making it a 2D DMC game.

 

[Crayon]

It wasn't really fud. Sony had basically bought the entire communication scene at that point, and they had bought third party partnerships as well. There wasn't room for competitors to have any relevancy. Namco made Soul Calibur on DC mainly to remember Sony to throw more money at them. They made a fantastic game, thanks Namco, but the intentions were also always clear. Unlike a company like Capcom which really intended on supporting SEGA, and not simply use it as a lever.

Square-Enix are doing the exact same thing currently with Xbox and other platforms, to get more money from Sony by the way.

Sony said to people to keep their money and wait for PS2, despite having no games to show and no exact release date when saying this. They simply had to say that, the deal was already sealed anyway. Of course there were the usual lies and bullshit about what the console was going to be able to do, which was basically a strategy built up with PS1 advertisements anyway (displaying only CG), largely used during PS2 and PS3 era, and something that is still used to this day (specifically the We Believe In Generations only to release cross-gen titles afterwards). These should be considered common strategies for Sony and they brought them where they are right now, which is a pretty comfortable place.

I understand. Like probably most of us, I've been part of these relitigations many many times. I thought the use of fud as a term was new, and now I see it traces back to a kind of recent Peter Moore interview. Like I said above, I remembered a lot the same way. I don't say fud, and additionally I should say of course I have a different balance of the contributing factors in my head and my own projections on what would have gone differently with more or less with some factors.. But regardless, Sega had no leverage and was vulnerable to talk about the PS2. Let alone the PS2 itself.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Yes coming off the back of the PS1, with its ongoing support, third party studios and everything Sony could have said nothing and it would still win by default. People knew PS2 was coming, they knew Square, Namco, EA, Ubi, Konami etc were there in full force. For many PS2 was the de facto choice before it was unveiled simply because PS1 was their system of choice already.

Ultimately Sony simply had the backs of the most crucial third parties and had IP that actually sold well. The support of Namco on DC was thin at best, they had Soul Calibur (which I think kind of did lacklustre in the Arcade), Mr Driller and something else. They would move TTT, RR and their other IP to PS2 anyway. Capcom too, they had RE CV and a ton of fighting games Sony likely even blocked since they weren't too keen on 2D anymore, but their bigger projects Onimusha, DMC etc were all PS2.

And even the PS1 enjoyed a very strong 1999 and even 2000, and outsold the DC by a good margin anyway.

 

[Dr_Salt]

Panzer Dragoon Creator:

" I stole the source code from Sega, LOL"

1: Futatsugi is stupid for admitting it.

Or

2: Futatsugi has an agreement with Sega for something Panzer Dragoon related.

My guess is #2...

Make him work on a spiritual succesor to Phantom Dust.

 

[Fat Frog]

Make him work on a spiritual succesor to Phantom Dust.

I think he'll work with Sega again (Grounding released a Space Channel VR lately).
On top of that, Panzer Dragoon performed well:

Orta topped japanese charts on Xbox One.

The remake was bankable on Switch.

Panzer Dragoon: Remake revenue from first weekend more than doubled cost of development

Panzer Dragoon: Remake appears to be off to a strong start. According to publisher Forever Entertainment, revenue earned during the first weekend following launch more than doubled the cost of development. That includes sales from the eShop as well as pre-ordered from Limited Run Games’ physical...

nintendoeverything.com

In other words, a new Panzer Dragoon could be published by Sega soon.(it's popular and performed well...)

 

[Crayon]

Hmmm this is making me want to revisit jsr... Any known issues with the steam version?

 

[ManaByte]

Hmmm this is making me want to revisit jsr... Any known issues with the steam version?

I think the music is changed like Crazy Taxi but there should be mods to fix it.

 

[Crayon]

I think the music is changed like Crazy Taxi but there should be mods to fix it.

Those motherfuckers.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

For many PS2 was the de facto choice before it was unveiled simply because PS1 was their system of choice already.

For many too, the successor to the Snes was the de facto choice before it was unveiled. So what happened?

I say, the qualities of the Playstation were too good to be ignored by consumers and devs, so that optical media allowed devs a greater profit margin without the need to sell the game at $70 as happened with cartridges, it also allowed more producers entered the market as there was no need for control to print 100,000 units. Another advantage of the PS1 was the ease of programming, which allowed you to make more games in less time and make more profit. and yes less rigidity and moral control in games. In other words, the Playstation was not born dominating the market. Sega made a fatal mistake by making a console with lower quality 3D (it is a well-known fact that the Sega Saturn has less capacity in light effects, shadows, textures, polygonal count per frame than the Playsation. What does this mean? shadows , lighting, textures and polygons per frame - basically all the points that make a 3d game pleasing to the eye) Nintendo made the mistake of thinking that the generation would only start when the N64 entered the game giving the PlayStation almost 2 years of advantage. using a cartridge, less profit for the developer, more bureaucracy to print 100,000 copies, requiring more work for, again less profit. Underestimating a competitor's product is always the biggest mistake.
.

Sega only had two options.

1) not have multiplats, fill the Saturn only with exclusive games to avoid comparison
2) reduce the Saturn price below the Playstation.

If I am a customer migrating from the Genesis/32x to the new generation, why should I choose the one that runs third party games with lower quality?
If I'm a dev why should I opt for the one that requires more work and offers less profit?

So Sony managed to bring Square to the PS1 side, thus beating Sega and Nintendo in 5th gen. Nintendo survived due to the strength of its franchises and the processing power of the N64.

Ultimately Sony simply had the backs of the most crucial third parties and had IP that actually sold well. The support of Namco on DC was thin at best, they had Soul Calibur (which I think kind of did lacklustre in the Arcade), Mr Driller and something else. They would move TTT, RR and their other IP to PS2 anyway. Capcom too, they had RE CV and a ton of fighting games Sony likely even blocked since they weren't too keen on 2D anymore, but their bigger projects Onimusha, DMC etc were all PS2.

I believe that the primary responsibility for the success of a console lies with the manufacturer and its first party games. Namco was Sega's rival in the arcades, it would be strange to imagine Ridge Racer and Daytona USA on the Saturn and the Playstation without a racing game at launch. In fact we don't know why they released SC on the Dreamcast or RR64 on the N64 what we do know is that Namco was basically a first party to Sony in that era.

Sony and Sega sold at comparable levels until early 1996, the difference is that Playstation customers bought more games from the same franchise than Sega customers did on Saturn. Arc the Lad in June 1995 became popular selling 1M copies quickly, for comparison the first Sega game to reach 1M was VF2 released in November 1995 until 1998 it made 1.5M. The Saturn only has 3 games to reach 1M, for comparison the Dreamcast has 6 and the WiiU has 20 with a highlight being Mario Kart 8 where 70% of the base bought the game.

I don't think anyone doubts that Saturn would sell 1M Sonic games in 1995 if they had made one

And even the PS1 enjoyed a very strong 1999 and even 2000, and outsold the DC by a good margin anyway.

this is true, Final Fantasy, Driver, Silent Hill, Gran Turismo 2, Vagrant Story, Fifa 2000 many good games.
The Dreamcast would sell a lot of units if it contained the games that people wanted to play. What games would those be? I don't know, I just know that if the game had a DC-PS1 port, people would choose to play on the PS1 (as history has shown us).

The Dreamcast's only chance in my opinion was to repeat the Sega Genesis strategy.
total exclusivity, almost every game made by Sega, licensed games with celebrity names, licensed Disney characters. The only thing I would keep from the Dreamcast that we came to know are the 2k sports games, and Sonic.

 

[Fat Frog]

Lizardcube (Fiquet) liked this:

(Kid Chameleon has been trademarked in December 2023)

 

[Deerock71]

Gettin' the JSR team back together:

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I read somewhere that the producers of Phantasy Star Online 2 are involved in JSR and Crazy Taxi, if this is true these games will flop
I don't think anyone wants a gaas experience in these games.

 

[Fat Frog]

I read somewhere that the producers of Phantasy Star Online 2 are involved in JSR and Crazy Taxi, if this is true these games will flop
I don't think anyone wants a gaas experience in these games.

Jet Set Radio and Crazy Taxi staff moved from Division 4 to Division 3, which is different.

I don't think it's the same staff for PSO and Jet Set.

Kikuchi, JSR's creator is making the reboot... And i guess Kanno (CT) is handling Crazy Taxi reboot as well.

PSO and JSR's staff are doing their own stuffs...

 

[ManaByte]

For many too, the successor to the Snes was the de facto choice before it was unveiled. So what happened?

I say, the qualities of the Playstation were too good to be ignored by consumers and devs, so that optical media allowed devs a greater profit margin without the need to sell the game at $70 as happened with cartridges, it also allowed more producers entered the market as there was no need for control to print 100,000 units. Another advantage of the PS1 was the ease of programming, which allowed you to make more games in less time and make more profit. and yes less rigidity and moral control in games. In other words, the Playstation was not born dominating the market. Sega made a fatal mistake by making a console with lower quality 3D (it is a well-known fact that the Sega Saturn has less capacity in light effects, shadows, textures, polygonal count per frame than the Playsation. What does this mean? shadows , lighting, textures and polygons per frame - basically all the points that make a 3d game pleasing to the eye) Nintendo made the mistake of thinking that the generation would only start when the N64 entered the game giving the PlayStation almost 2 years of advantage. using a cartridge, less profit for the developer, more bureaucracy to print 100,000 copies, requiring more work for, again less profit. Underestimating a competitor's product is always the biggest mistake.
.

Sega only had two options.

1) not have multiplats, fill the Saturn only with exclusive games to avoid comparison
2) reduce the Saturn price below the Playstation.

If I am a customer migrating from the Genesis/32x to the new generation, why should I choose the one that runs third party games with lower quality?
If I'm a dev why should I opt for the one that requires more work and offers less profit?

So Sony managed to bring Square to the PS1 side, thus beating Sega and Nintendo in 5th gen. Nintendo survived due to the strength of its franchises and the processing power of the N64.


I believe that the primary responsibility for the success of a console lies with the manufacturer and its first party games. Namco was Sega's rival in the arcades, it would be strange to imagine Ridge Racer and Daytona USA on the Saturn and the Playstation without a racing game at launch. In fact we don't know why they released SC on the Dreamcast or RR64 on the N64 what we do know is that Namco was basically a first party to Sony in that era.

Sony and Sega sold at comparable levels until early 1996, the difference is that Playstation customers bought more games from the same franchise than Sega customers did on Saturn. Arc the Lad in June 1995 became popular selling 1M copies quickly, for comparison the first Sega game to reach 1M was VF2 released in November 1995 until 1998 it made 1.5M. The Saturn only has 3 games to reach 1M, for comparison the Dreamcast has 6 and the WiiU has 20 with a highlight being Mario Kart 8 where 70% of the base bought the game.

I don't think anyone doubts that Saturn would sell 1M Sonic games in 1995 if they had made one


this is true, Final Fantasy, Driver, Silent Hill, Gran Turismo 2, Vagrant Story, Fifa 2000 many good games.
The Dreamcast would sell a lot of units if it contained the games that people wanted to play. What games would those be? I don't know, I just know that if the game had a DC-PS1 port, people would choose to play on the PS1 (as history has shown us).

The Dreamcast's only chance in my opinion was to repeat the Sega Genesis strategy.
total exclusivity, almost every game made by Sega, licensed games with celebrity names, licensed Disney characters. The only thing I would keep from the Dreamcast that we came to know are the 2k sports games, and Sonic.

Hi Eddie, nice new alt you have there.

 

[Isa]

I hope these turn out well and are fun enough. Still iffy on the Golden Axe art style but its not too bad. Just worried about Tyris lol. Should be fun though. I enjoyed and still have Golden Axe PS3/360 despite its flaws, and always wanted to try the Sega remakes from PS2 for it and Phantasy Star even though they were duds. I like the Shinobi direction and animation but like with Streets of Rage 4 I'm not keen on the heavy darkness. The classic games have a strong use of color even at night, there is a positive feeling even in dim spaces and against overwhelming foes, with a soundtrack to match that optimism.

Just nitpicking mind you. But I really do hope these turn out well enough and do well so I can get games beyond the arcade experience. As one might guess, I need some new Shining Force in my life. So many strategy rpgs over the years but so few give me what I want that my favorite franchise did. Gimme horse peple dammit! And start releasing those Sega classics in some kind of compilation or something, hell even individually I don't care just let me play them on a modern system with easy access instead of having to bend over backwards hoping some emulator will work. I want to pay them.

 

[cireza]

I read somewhere that the producers of Phantasy Star Online 2 are involved in JSR and Crazy Taxi, if this is true these games will flop
I don't think anyone wants a gaas experience in these games.

The smell of GaaS.