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[sportzhead]

the hardcore guys are the guys who end up buying the most merch, buy tickets for B-tier PPVs, and subscribe to shit like the WWE Network. They're also likely largest demographic of people tuning in for television at this point given WWE's dwindling ratings. Those fans count, but they're becoming more and more the minority, and part of the problem with Roman and WWE as a whole is that they're appealing to a dwindling audience.

I'm pretty sure the average age of a WWE viewer is also in their 30s - the teen/kid demographic has been dwindling in recent years which is a tell tale sign that they aren't really picking up any next generation viewers.

Understood. But there seems to be no pleasing the hardcore fan. If they are loosing fans now while trying to appeal to a broader base, how bad will things be if they just try and do fan service to the hardcore fans? They would loose the all the casual fans and kids, and the hardcore fans left would just complain about every little thing that didn't happen like they wanted it too.

 

[Gurrry]

Was at the show last night. I really enjoyed it. Im sure it was far better for me being there in person than it was for most of you who just watched it on TV. Its always different when youre at the show versus just watching it.

I really enjoyed the show. It didnt feel long at all and all of the matches were great. The rumble was the only real disappointment for me. Everyone around me was saying "We know all the people that are left except 1! Who is gonna be?!?!"

Everyone waited in anticipation for #30. Would it be Shinsuke? Joe?... Then we all know what happened.

The only disappointment for me was that and the lack of real surprises other than Tye. But even then, we have been saying Tye should come out at #10 since last year, so it was expected.

Also the fact that Cena won was a real bummer for me. AJ is my guy and seeing him lose and knowing we have Cena Orton at WM (maybe) is kind of boring. AJ vs Orton wouldve been alot more hype.

 

[Sephzilla]

Understood. But there seems to be no pleasing the hardcore fan. If they are loosing fans now while trying to appeal to a broader base, how bad will things be if they just try and do fan service to the hardcore fans? They would loose the all the casual fans and kids, and the hardcore fans left would just complain about every little thing that didn't happen like they wanted it too.

You can still appeal to hardcore fans while still appealing to the more casual fans and kids, though. There are and have been plenty of stars that both demographics gravitate to - like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan. And, since the kid audience tends to gravitate towards whomever is the super babyface at the time, you could just push one of those hardcore fan favorites like Sami Zayn or Finn Balor and the end result would probably be kids embracing them too. The Attitude Era in the 90s was when Vince aimed everything directly at pleasing hardcore fans, and the end result was their biggest boom in company history.

But a big part of the reason hardcore fans are complaining, and ratings are dropping as people abandon WWE, is because WWE doesn't work as a basic television show. Some storylines dont make sense - like how anti-authority figure Roman Reigns manages to keep getting title shots or a spot in the Royal Rumble even though he just had a title match. They keep recycling the same story tropes from 15 years ago (see: heel authority figures). And WWE keeps using the exact same template for both its face and heel wrestlers. Nothing feels fresh, too much shit doesn't work at a fundamental storyline level. Even casual fans can see through that crap.

 

[sportzhead]

What exactly is your point? Are people in a thread about wrestling not allowed to talk about what annoys them about the product they just watched, and payed money for?

Am I telling anybody to stop talking? Are am I just asking questions?

 

[Mahonay]

Understood. But there seems to be no pleasing the hardcore fan. If they are loosing fans now while trying to appeal to a broader base, how bad will things be if they just try and do fan service to the hardcore fans? They would loose the all the casual fans and kids, and the hardcore fans left would just complain about every little thing that didn't happen like they wanted it too.

We aren't making the shit product. They are. They are losing fans on their own. Get it right.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Understood. But there seems to be no pleasing the hardcore fan. If they are loosing fans now while trying to appeal to a broader base, how bad will things be if they just try and do fan service to the hardcore fans? They would loose the all the casual fans and kids, and the hardcore fans left would just complain about every little thing that didn't happen like they wanted it too.

Attitude Era was the period where they were doing the most to try and please the hardcore fans and it's the period where the drew the most.

 

[Marvel]

Roman will make a nice Heel one day, it was touched on in the past. Just wish his spear and superman punch weren't so lame.

I like the guy he can go despite what some say, but Babyface booking just doesn't feel right imo.

 

[Into the Light]

Was at the show last night. I really enjoyed it. Im sure it was far better for me being there in person than it was for most of you who just watched it on TV. Its always different when youre at the show versus just watching it.

I really enjoyed the show. It didnt feel long at all and all of the matches were great. The rumble was the only real disappointment for me. Everyone around me was saying "We know all the people that are left except 1! Who is gonna be?!?!"

Everyone waited in anticipation for #30. Would it be Shinsuke? Joe?... Then we all know what happened.

The only disappointment for me was that and the lack of real surprises other than Tye. But even then, we have been saying Tye should come out at #10 since last year, so it was expected.

Also the fact that Cena won was a real bummer for me. AJ is my guy and seeing him lose and knowing we have Cena Orton at WM (maybe) is kind of boring. AJ vs Orton wouldve been alot more hype.

100%.


Jesus Cena Orton 2017. Oh my Vince.

 

[Mahonay]

Roman will make a nice Heel one day, it was touched on in the past. Just wish his spear and superman punch weren't so lame.

I like the guy he can go despite what some say, but Babyface booking just doesn't feel right imo.

They are throwing money in the trash by not pushing him as a huge heel. It's insane.

 

[Lothar]

Attitude Era was the period where they were doing the most to try and please the hardcore fans and it's the period where the drew the most.

One thing you can't take away from Russo is that he listened to the fans.

 

[Sephzilla]

One thing you can't take away from Russo is that he listened to the fans.

McMahon and Russo was really a magical combination. Russo managed to convince McMahon to listen to the needs of the hardcore fans and Vince also filtered out many of Russo's more stupid plans. Too bad both of them got too big of heads and both thought their own individual ideas were better.

 

[Mahonay]

McMahon and Russo was really a magical combination. Russo managed to convince McMahon to listen to the needs of the hardcore fans and Vince also filtered out many of Russo's more stupid plans. Too bad both of them got too big of heads and both thought their own individual ideas were better.

They played off each other extremely well, and kept a lot of each other's stupid ideas in check.

 

[kiguel182]

They are going to do Shane vs Styles? Man, MAN.

Mania is going to be hard to watch. Even half watch with the rumored card.

 

[Anth0ny]

If that's the case, then why does Roman's merchandise sell so well if you all dislike him so much?

1. Roman's merch doesn't sell that well

2. Roman, as their chosen one, gets new merch pumped out constantly. At any given house show or live event, there will be tons of Roman Reigns merch for boys/girls/men/women, and less for any other wrestler. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Punk and Randy Orton have brought this issue up publicly.

When CM Punk was red hot and started to outsell the John Cena merchandise, I know people that work in the company in the merchandise department, I know people that work the arenas and sell the merchandise, and I can tell you exactly what WWE did: as soon as John Cena started getting outsold by CM Punk, they made 3 additional John Cena designs, they refused to make a second CM Punk design and they started undershipping the CM Punk design on purpose. For every CM Punk shirt they would ship to the arena, they would triple John Cena shirts and they would do 3 John Cena designs. So every 10 shirts in the arena, if 9 are Cena, only one is Punk. Punk is going to sell out right away because they didn't send enough and at the end of the night they're going "Oh John Cena quadrupled Punk's merchandise." Of course he did! Because you've purposely created a situation where it would be impossible for CM Punk to outsell John Cena.

 

[Mahonay]

They are going to do Shane vs Styles? Man, MAN.

Mania is going to be hard to watch. Even half watch with the rumored card.

Just a rumor/something overheard. No hard evidence yet. Hopefully they go against that idea.

 

[ReiGun]

I don't get Tye Dillinger. Maybe it's that stupid power rangers collar thing he wears though, but I think he's going to flounder on the main roster.

Tye is like the only guy who looks better just coming out in his merch shirt. Well, him and Ambrose, but in the latter's case, it's cause his merch clothes seem to be the only clean clothes he has.

Dillinger definitely has a ceiling, but I think he has enough charisma and talent to have a solid midcard run. Course, Vince dgaf about the midcard, so he's probably fucked.

 

[Mahonay]

1. Roman's merch doesn't sell that well

2. Roman, as their chosen one, gets new merch pumped out constantly. At any given house show or live event, there will be tons of Roman Reigns merch for boys/girls/men/women, and less for any other wrestler. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Punk and Randy Orton have brought this issue up publicly.

Breaking down the science!

 

[Anth0ny]

Breaking down the science!

The science of carny on full display.

 

[sportzhead]

.But a big part of the reason hardcore fans are complaining, and ratings are dropping as people abandon WWE, is because WWE doesn't work as a basic television show. Some storylines dont make sense - like how anti-authority figure Roman Reigns manages to keep getting title shots or a spot in the Royal Rumble even though he just had a title match. They keep recycling the same story tropes from 15 years ago (see: heel authority figures). And WWE keeps using the exact same template for both its face and heel wrestlers. Nothing feels fresh, too much shit doesn't work at a fundamental storyline level. Even casual fans can see through that crap.

I agree. I think the writing and stories need to be overhauled. That's what's letting down the product. But the wrestling, especially during PPV is always great. And Roman puts on a good show, of course some matches here and there can be duds, but the guy can bring it in the ring. That's why I don't understand why you all seem to blame him and hate him so much for what WWE writes for him or does around him. Tyler Breeze has been so disappointing in his move up because of the terrible writing and story lines they put him in. But you all don't hate him, you hate WWE creative for him being a bad, wasted character.

 

[Lothar]

McMahon and Russo was really a magical combination. Russo managed to convince McMahon to listen to the needs of the hardcore fans and Vince also filtered out many of Russo's more stupid plans. Too bad both of them got too big of heads and both thought their own individual ideas were better.

Like, imagine someone in the WWE doing this today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ax-eiYcJ60

He's actually in the crowd listening to tell if the segment is working.

 

[Sephzilla]

I agree. I think the writing and stories need to be overhauled. That's what's letting down the product. But the wrestling, especially during PPV is always great. And Roman puts on a good show, of course some matches here and there can be duds, but the guy can bring it in the ring. That's why I don't understand why you all seem to blame him and hate him so much for what WWE writes for him or does around him. Tyler Breeze has been so disappointing in his move up because of the terrible writing and story lines they put him in. But you all don't hate him, you hate WWE creative for him being a bad, wasted character.

To be fair I don't think a lot of the hate is for Roman specifically. It's more that Roman is a symbol for everything that's wrong with WWE today and booing him is effectively the same as booing Vince and creative. It's not all that different then when fans completely shit on Batista winning the Rumble when everyone felt Bryan should have been in that spot. You need to remember that the hatred for Roman didn't start until Roman got that super face push after the Shield broke up. Because it was another "Vince pick" getting pushed over bigger fan favorites.

 

[Mahonay]

I agree. I think the writing and stories need to be overhauled. That's what's letting down the product. But the wrestling, especially during PPV is always great. And Roman puts on a good show, of course some matches here and there can be duds, but the guy can bring it in the ring. That's why I don't understand why you all seem to blame him and hate him so much for what WWE writes for him or does around him. Tyler Breeze has been so disappointing in his move up because of the terrible writing and story lines they put him in. But you all don't hate him, you hate WWE creative for him being a bad, wasted character.

It's no different with Reigns. We hate WWE for putting him the position he's in. Pushing him as a company leading baby face while we are screaming boos and bullshit at him because he is a really bad character. FOR 3 YEARS.

Roman has his faults with bad promos and some cheesy moves. But he's a really solid worker. Most "hardcore fans" agree on that part. He has presence and would be a big draw heel if used correctly.

 

[billy beane]

Roman coming out at #30 was a masterful troll. It could've been anyone else and it would've gotten a better fan reaction. You could've had Bob Holly come out and people would've cared more.

 

[slightconfuse]

Roman is symbolic of everything wrong with WWE. Over produced and manufacturered . There is nothing original or organic about him

A walking focus grouo

 

[Mahonay]

ALL KIDS TOTALLY LOVE ROMAN

 

[sportzhead]

1. Roman's merch doesn't sell that well

2. Roman, as their chosen one, gets new merch pumped out constantly. At any given house show or live event, there will be tons of Roman Reigns merch for boys/girls/men/women, and less for any other wrestler. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Punk and Randy Orton have brought this issue up publicly.

Is that an alternative fact?

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Roman is essentially a walking trigger at this point.

You know how the glass shattering in Austin's theme always got monster pops? It was because the audience knew something cool was gonna happen.

Now, the opening percussion of Roman's theme gets monster boos because you know you're probably going to see something stupid.

Which is hilarious, because that opening got big pops with The Shield.

 

[Draxal]

It's no different with Reigns. We hate WWE for putting him the position he's in. Pushing him as a company leading baby face while we are screaming boos and bullshit at him because he is a really bad character. FOR 3 YEARS.

Roman has his faults with bad promos and some cheesy moves. But he's a really solid worker. Most "hardcore fans" agree on that part. He has presence and would be a big draw heel if used correctly.

Romans offense is his issue, but it's also the issue with alot of wrestlers in general.

Also, if he reunited with the Shield or some heel stable, he would benefit a ton.

 

[Mahonay]

Romans offense is his issue, but it's also the issue with alot of wrestlers in general.

Also, if he reunited with the Shield or some heel stable, he would benefit a ton.

I think if they paired the Authors of Pain from NXT with Roman as a heel stable that could be pretty great.

 

[Toki767]

Is that an alternative fact?

It's a Meltzer fact.

 

[Mahonay]

Roman is essentially a walking trigger at this point.

You know how the glass shattering in Austin's theme always got monster pops? It was because the audience knew something cool was gonna happen.

Now, the opening percussion of Roman's theme gets monster boos because you know you're probably going to see something stupid.

Which is hilarious, because that opening got big pops with The Shield.

Lol it is pretty hilarious when you look at it closely like that.

Is that an alternative fact?

You are free to keep believing your alternative fact that Roman Reigns is a good baby face.

 

[Anth0ny]

Roman is essentially a walking trigger at this point.

You know how the glass shattering in Austin's theme always got monster pops? It was because the audience knew something cool was gonna happen.

Now, the opening percussion of Roman's theme gets monster boos because you know you're probably going to see something stupid.

Which is hilarious, because that opening got big pops with The Shield.

Well said.



I think we see a shield reunion this year. Ambrose got tossed like a jobber yesterday and feels stale. Rollins has settled into heavily scripted WWE babyface mode and I get the feeling people aren't going to give a fuck about the build to the HHH match or what comes out of it. And the whole reunion is to make Roman look strong, of course.

 

[Sephzilla]

Well said.



I think we see a shield reunion this year. Ambrose got tossed like a jobber yesterday and feels stale. Rollins has settled into heavily scripted WWE babyface mode and I get the feeling people aren't going to give a fuck about the build to the HHH match or what comes out of it. And the whole reunion is to make Roman look strong, of course.

A good way to reunite The Shield would be to have Rollings goad HHH into a no disqualification match at WrestleMania. Then at some point during the match the Shield shows up and beats the shit out of HHH - basically revealing that Seth was, in fact, the Architect all along.

 

[The Silver]

Seth has flopped so hard as a "babyface". Feels like his balls have been cut off and he's just coasting. At least with Roman I know I'm in for some Vince fuckery, Seth I feel nothing but apathy.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Seth has flopped so hard as a "babyface". Feels like his balls have been cut off and he's just coasting. At least with Roman I know I'm in for some Vince fuckery, Seth I feel nothing but apathy.

Seth was much better as a sniveling, cowardly heel. Basically what Owens is now, while I think the role has kind of been a disservice to Owens, as awesome as he is.

 

[Sephzilla]

Seth's babyface run has flopped because the entire origin of his face turn was that he was angry he was no longer getting preferential treatment from The Authority

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Like, imagine someone in the WWE doing this today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ax-eiYcJ60

He's actually in the crowd listening to tell if the segment is working.

Are there many extreme behind the scenes videos like this?

 

[ReiGun]

I can't believe they really went through with not having Seth Rollins on the Rumble PPV at all.

I think if they paired the Authors of Pain from NXT with Roman as a heel stable that could be pretty great.

Pair him with the Heel Usos and just have them be a goon ass Samoan stable.

Bring back Hollywood Rock as their leader.

 

[kiguel182]

Seth's babyface run has flopped because the entire origin of his face turn was that he was angry he was no longer getting preferential treatment from The Authority

His baby face turn was so easy too since he was gone for a while. Instead he kept being an heel and was expecting HHH to handle him the title!

So bad.

 

[Lothar]

Are there many extreme behind the scenes videos like this?

I don't know of any. I don't even know where that's from. There's Beyond the Mat where McMahon comes up with the character of Puke.

 

[tchocky]

Are there many extreme behind the scenes videos like this?

That video is from the documentary Beyond The Mat (deleted scene I think it was an extra on the dvd) which is fantastic also worth watching is Wrestling With Shadows about Bret Harts last 6 monthsr in WWF

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

I feel like last year's rumble was better but not much.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Finn Balor's injury is the only reason they actually turned Seth Rollins. They have 0 credible heels on Raw right now. Owens is in the main event picture, but that's a promotion of necessity, not because he got a serious push to that level. That's also the reason why it was absurd that people believed Owens was going to be pushed like a legit Universal Champion. Because he isn't and was never actually presented as one.

 

[Marvel]

Yeah really not a fan of Owens' run. Built him up as a monster too when he burst on the scene. He's been made to look like more of a joke than ever Sethy-poo was.

At least the sniveling coward slimeball-scumbag suited Seth. He did it so well.

But then again it gaves us this awesome Jericho run lol

 

[Sephzilla]

Rollins and KO are basically proof that WWE creative (aka Vince) only know how to make one kind of heel these days. Rollins was supposed to be a clever heel and he got reduced to a chickenshit who hid behind Momma Steph and Papa HHH. KO started off as a monster heel who beat John Cena clean and was powerbombing fools into the ring apron, and then he turned into a chickenshit heel who hid behind Chris Jericho - who in tern is a chickenshit heel who at least gets some stupid shit over.

It seems like you get more creative freedom the further down the card, and further away from Vince, you are.

 

[Lyng]

Even if I would have preferred AJ to win, boy was that a good match.

 

[Sephzilla]

I actually don't mind the Superman punch that Roman does, but the problem is he spams the fucking thing more than a scrub Ryu player spams hadoukens

 

[Tall4Life]

Yeah, that something stupid is the "Superman punch" which is a level of cringe I have never seen before, everything about his move set other than the spear is cringe, Reigns is a perfect embodiment of everything "PG ERA."

We do seem to be slowly going back to a more adult product but it's taking time, I thought that enzo angle with Rusev in the hotel room was amazing, more of that and the Wyatt's and Rollins would make me happy.

A superman punch is a legit UFC move and it's called the superman punch there too, you mark.

 

[Lyng]

I actually don't mind the Superman punch that Roman does, but the problem is he spams the fucking thing more than a scrub Ryu player spams hadoukens

Yeah. I think the move could be pretty cool if it was something he did very rarely.
Spamming moves is never a good thing, it even made Lesnars Suplex boring for me.

 

[Sinatar]

It's the fist cocking that ruins the superman punch, not the move itself.