Support NeoGAF

[Schrödinger's cat]

Prove it.

Allegations without proof?
Accusations without evidence?

Just another normal day.

 

[Yoshi]

Here in Germany, raping your wife was legal only 50 years ago.

22 years ago it was legal and we still have conservative members of parliament who voted against it, among them the current secretary of interior, Seehofer.

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[Scopa]

Such vitriol, so unbecoming of your average GAFer...and a new account with only 7 posts, all of them in this thread. Now if I were a betting man...

They do it every time. Accuse us of being alt-right, violent evil people and then they send one of their brainwashed idiots over here with a burner account to sow the seed and false evidence.

It’s pathetic.

 

[Flintty]

Hello NeoGaf! I just self nuked my account on ResetEra, I could no longer take the mob mentality and group think social justice types that would not bend on an honest to God rational opinion that was different than theirs. The suicide of Alec pushed me over the edge. I was more of a lurker here than anything, but I figured now would be the time to make my presence known.

Welcome! Any half decent person on that site should be questioning their ongoing presence there. It’s not a healthy site to participate in conversation.

This bitch just removed how much money she gets from Patreon or how many patreon she has. Guess she doesnt want the world to know its shrinking.

I put some grabs up earlier in this thread. A 67% drop in income from when at its peak. Who knows where it goes from here.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's also massively hypocritical for the Conservatives here to pretend they are somehow less bad than the left in terms of online harassment. Places like 4chan/8chan, Stormfront, T_D and Kiwifarms have massive kill counts that dwarf shitlib twitter, brag and laugh about how they've gotten mentally ill people to kill themselves and the right just as often, if not more engage in mobbing and "kill yourself" abuse against mentally vulnerable people. It's where the "join the 40%" right wing meme comes from. (The high number of Transgender suicides).

It's a bit rich watching the pearl clutching from Conservatives over this, especially when just days ago as well people on the right were throwing Alec under the bus because he was a "SJW Dev" as well.

The issue is absolutely online mob/vigilante culture, but people on both sides are desperate to turn this political.

Also political compass is full of shit, doesn't understand that politics is philosophy and that specific basic one puts pretty much everyone in the bottom left corner when boards like T_D and /Pol/ did it they were all in the bottom left when they should be high/blue. It's because it improperly weights very basic moral questions into the bottom left.

Receipts please.

And clever way to open with your first sentence in attempt at grouping this place, with your accusations of those others places.

A place in which you too yourself, are a member of and randomly partake in.

So provide the receipts that this place has earned the alignment you are attempting to paint.

 

[Naru]

According to google checks, she was born female as Chelsea Van Valkenburg in 1987, so technically a female. But wants to be called a "they"

Why would you change your name from "van Valkenburg" to Zoë Quinn?! I guess because van Valkenburg sounds kinda majestic which she certainly is not.

 

[brap]

It's on page 6. Before Alec died.

LMAO THAT LONG ASS FUCKING NOVEL I SURE AS HELL WASN'T GONNA READ THAT
Sorry.

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[Halo is Back]

Lol these comments are a fun read.

Zach Kaplan in particular is just dying for a crumb of pussy.

Edit: Wait a minute, brap is that you? You sneaky sumbitch.

Woooooooow she took the money and fucking ran

 

[DeepEnigma]

Woooooooow she took the money and fucking ran

 

[Halo is Back]

It's also massively hypocritical for the Conservatives here to pretend they are somehow less bad than the left in terms of online harassment. Places like 4chan/8chan, Stormfront, T_D and Kiwifarms have massive kill counts that dwarf shitlib twitter, brag and laugh about how they've gotten mentally ill people to kill themselves and the right just as often, if not more engage in mobbing and "kill yourself" abuse against mentally vulnerable people. It's where the "join the 40%" right wing meme comes from. (The high number of Transgender suicides).

It's a bit rich watching the pearl clutching from Conservatives over this, especially when just days ago as well people on the right were throwing Alec under the bus because he was a "SJW Dev" as well.

The issue is absolutely online mob/vigilante culture, but people on both sides are desperate to turn this political.

Also political compass is full of shit, doesn't understand that politics is philosophy and that specific basic one puts pretty much everyone in the bottom left corner when boards like T_D and /Pol/ did it they were all in the bottom left when they should be high/blue. It's because it improperly weights very basic moral questions into the bottom left.

I have never nor will I ever condone cyber bullying. The people that do it are cowards regardless of the platform they use. I would not even justify if anyone on here harassed Zoe because that solves nothing. As far as I can tell no one on this thread has encouraged harassment

 

[Halo is Back]

The lesson here is kids, don’t give people money on Kickstarter.

 

[LMJ]

Yet another life snuffed out well before its prime...

The social media rage machine continues to chug along fueled with anger and bitterness at the world and lashing out at anyone they can, any surprise millenials are considered to be the loneliest and most identity driven generation ever?

Sad kids confused and looking for an outlet, any outlet for their woes, and sadly this is a huge part of the outrage culture, but the disheartening thing is the media is what is driving it...

People like Zoe (my bad) Chelsea are schiesters, but the so called "game journalists" feeding this bullshit are just as much to blame!

The truly sad part is that the alledged sexual assault isn't nor should have ever been game news, at most it should have been between Chelsea and Alec the authorities and maybe friends/co-workers...

We treat every day folks and people in our selected circles of interest like the paparazzi do celebrities and politicians and quite frankly its disgusting and stupid...

Whether he was guilty of the alledged crimes or not Alec didnt deserve this, my heart goes out to his family and friends.

 

[Hostile_18]

So Resetera piled on Alec and look what happened.

Now *some* users in this thread are doing the same to Zoe and making us look bad in the process.

Still no facts are known at this point. Jumping to conclusions either way about guilt or innocence isn't helping anyone.

We are better than this <3

 

[llien]

Thanks, man. I don't loathe you as well.


Also, I have finally figured out the cardinal directions of the political spectrum with this handy guide:

Shut up.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Shut up.

I’m in the green too, but the funny part is,
I recognize that real estate is the lowest risk investment gamble that one can make on average.

 

[captainraincoat]

So Resetera piled on Alec and look what happened.

Now *some* users in this thread are doing the same to Zoe and making us look bad in the process.

Still no facts are known at this point. Jumping to conclusions either way about guilt or innocence isn't helping anyone.

We are better than this <3

I don't think people have been attacking her....simply discussing that there are definitely some skeletons in her closet...The difference here is that people are not starting up lynch mobs and trying to dox...harass people...we are simply discussing which is allowed here

If people are coming here from ree trying to discuss and defend their viewpoint ask yourself....why have all threads on ree been locked and you are not allowed to discuss??

Edit
Not a dig at you but I agree with your point....we are better than certain hate filled places

 

[llien]

Western women have been treated horribly by men as a whole in the past.

Could you be more specific about it please. Which time period is to be regarded as such.
E.g. does World War I times count. World War II?
Time when neither men nor women had voting rights and 97% of population lived in misery, with infants mortality rate above 50%?
Who was ruling British Empire and Russian Empire for decades, when they waged wars left and right?

I don't challenge the oppression in the past part, but it almost never was as one sided as people normally paint it and was dictated as those in power solving their problems at hand, never a male conspiracy.

22 years ago it was legal and we still have conservative members of parliament who voted against it, among them the current secretary of interior, Seehofer.

It was legal both ways, although, of course we know which gender wants to have more sex typically.

 

[nush]

The scary part is how freaking organised that side of the movement is by some figureheads: the ones with blu ticked Twitter accounts repeating “Remember, DO NOT ENGAGE with GG, no reply’s, no mute’s, do not give them access to our followers... just block them and let’s build a block list” almost verbatim.

I could even almost understand that if lately being alt-right or GG meant more than just disagreeing with such figureheads on anything.

Here's what I don't understand as someone who didn't follow Gamergate originally or give a shit because it was some bullshit internet drama.

Is there a Gamergate.com or base of operations? It seems anyone can be accused and dismissed as being "Gamergate" because of what forums you post on or just by disagreeing with another perspective? If there was organized hate campaigns, wouldnt someone infultrate this group screencap and write an expose?? in 2019 it just feels like the GG corpse has been dug up to be paraded around as a boogieman.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Here's what I don't understand as someone who didn't follow Gamergate originally or give a shit because it was some bullshit internet drama.

Is there a Gamergate.com or base of operations? It seems anyone can be accused and dismissed as being "Gamergate" because of what forums you post on or just by disagreeing with another perspective? If there was organized hate campaigns, wouldnt someone infultrate this group screencap and write an expose?? in 2019 it just feels like the GG corpse has been dug up to be paraded around as a boogieman.

The list of GG’ers seems maintained by the self professed GG-spotters I was mentioning before... yeah I know... fucked up...

 

[joe_zazen]

Could you be more specific about it please. Which time period is to be regarded as such.
E.g. does World War I times count. World War II?
Time when neither men nor women had voting rights and 97% of population lived in misery, with infants mortality rate above 50%?
Who was ruling British Empire and Russian Empire for decades, when they waged wars left and right?

I don't challenge the oppression in the past part, but it almost never was as one sided as people normally paint it and was dictated as those in power solving their problems at hand, never a male conspiracy.

Most dont have a grasp on history, or the abject misery most people lived in once civilisation became a thing. I had one professor explain how he loved egyptology so much as a youth and was so disillusioned in his first physical archeology uni class where the prof went over what the bone remains told us about the lives and health of 99% of ancient Egyptians (men, women, children) and how they were treated by the powers that were, he almost changed areas. It is genuinely horrific. Pop history of his youth did not prepare him for that.

Anyone that thinks men had it any better than women except for the one percent of the one percent don't know shit. Civilisation was a mistake.

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[RokkanStoned]

It's also massively hypocritical for the Conservatives here to pretend they are somehow less bad than the left in terms of online harassment. Places like 4chan/8chan, Stormfront, T_D and Kiwifarms have massive kill counts that dwarf shitlib twitter, brag and laugh about how they've gotten mentally ill people to kill themselves and the right just as often, if not more engage in mobbing and "kill yourself" abuse against mentally vulnerable people. It's where the "join the 40%" right wing meme comes from. (The high number of Transgender suicides).

4chan/8chan/kiwifarms conservative? Lol.
Stormfront representative of Conservatives? Lol. Are eco terrorists supposed to be representative of "Liberals"?
T_D? I'm pretty sure they haven't a "kill count", when I browsed it for the memes and keeping tabs on the various movements in 2016 it was mostly just shitposting and memes and not targeted attacks to cancel someone and ruin their lives. Unless you count CNN or Hillary Clinton.

Needing to appeal to generally fringe sites doesn't really put up a good showing compared to something as mainstream as twitter. When those fringe sites tend to have something happen there, even if they weren't responsible and the general user base wasn't responsible, they'll face public scrutiny and often attacks on their ability to maintain their site.

That said, I have no doubt that there are a lot of conservatives that also do online harassment (I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise), but they don't come from a comparable acceptable side. I doubt you would find many people in the Conservative party who'd like 4chan/8chan/kiwifarms, as they generally stand for more socially conservative views of society and etiquette, which the chans definitely aren't. When it comes to conservatives I'd imagine radio shows and irl harassment would be far more relevant. Only social media I could imagine would be facebook, which I could see conservatives use for such.

I do agree with the poster you quoted that it's not about "left vs right", though I would say it's proportionally more towards the left, due to its mainstream prominence. It's the growing Cancel culture, mostly being weaponized because of growing polarization, but most of all made possible due to the cultural zeitgeist being obsessed about the online world. Social media especially has made Cancel culture grow strong and hasty, ready to bring anyone down for anything that's not mainstream acceptable dogma. That and social media has made "movements" a big thing in terms of social capital and people are always vying for attention and brownie points online, and mobs can quickly form and fall in line with a narrative. Really, it's just a display of the dark parts of humanity when faced with virtual globalization and it has no "left" or "right" to it, as if right-wing was mainstream, then you'd have the same thing just right-wing. What would otherwise be personal drama gets elevated to the highest stage. What would otherwise be a case for police to investigate or rumor spreading in a social circle, gets elevated to the highest stage of attention.
People need a way to escape, they need hope for a future, otherwise they might get pushed over the edge. With the ever present and ever looming behemoth of social media, that respite is gone. Whenever something happens we should remain level headed and do things the right way, instead of vying for attention and clout in social media. Both being given the benefit of doubt in lacking further corroboration and being given a path towards redemption is important. That's how it is with people accused of a crime, that's how it is with how ex-felons are supposed to be treated.

 

[Hostile_18]

I don't think people have been attacking her....simply discussing that there are definitely some skeletons in her closet...The difference here is that people are not starting up lynch mobs and trying to dox...harass people...we are simply discussing which is allowed here

If people are coming here from ree trying to discuss and defend their viewpoint ask yourself....why have all threads on ree been locked and you are not allowed to discuss??

Edit
Not a dig at you but I agree with your point....we are better than certain hate filled places

Yeah I get what your saying. I guess it's just a fine line between questioning aspects and out right presuming guilt. I wouldn't like to think anyone outside of this forum takes action because of what they read here from our more "enthusiastic" members.

But just to be clear those are very, very few and it's easy to lose perspective in these emotional threads like Resetera clearly has in the opposite direction.

 

[Hostile_18]

I have to disagree. I know where you're coming from but I think this is an entirely different ball game. Alec Holowka got fired from his job, abandoned by his friends and pretty much un-personed from the industry before he killed himself. Zoe Quinn has deleted her twitter account and while there is a lot of shit being flung at her, her job writing comics is probably secure and no respected game journalist is going to cover this in any way that lays the blame for Alec's death at Chelsea's hands. Plus the twitter mob is by and large on her side, still... somehow.

And yes, I have been posting here for the last few days and in those posts (most of which were made before Alec's death) I outlined with proof, evidence as to Zoe Quinn's character and why I didn't necessarily believe her. You could argue I was rifling through the skeletons in her closet but at least 1 key detail: the review of her autobiography left by her mother, was something I saw happen in real time with my own eyes.

Also, a guy just fucking died over allegations that (at least in my personal opinion) are reasonably likely to be false or greatly exaggerated due to the person making those allegations. I had a low opinion of Zoe/Chelsea/Locke/whatever other name she comes up with before any of this happened. Now I am absolutely livid.

You are right that few facts have been properly established at this point but as someone who has watched Quinn's career and the borderline pathological lying, media circus and drama that goes with it, I have every reason to believe that at least part, if not all, of Zoe's statement is false. And without that statement Alec Holowka would probably still be alive today. I am not condoning harassment, I abhor harassment. I am however fucking livid and I think I have the right to speak my mind on an internet forum.

I agree with with your post detailing questioning her allegations etc and you offer very valid reasons why and explained it well. It's just too early to say 100% that she's lying or vice versa either way and nothing has been confirmed in a legal sense.

I especially agree with your sentiments on reactionary culture and its treatment of Alec in what was the very early stages of an accusation but let's not take that anger out on her at this point (it's far to early). Let the police take over and justice be served to whoever it needs to be served to.

 

[petran79]

Why would you change your name from "van Valkenburg" to Zoë Quinn?! I guess because van Valkenburg sounds kinda majestic which she certainly is not.

It sounds like an aristocratic anime villain and it would enstrange their supporters

 

[Kagey K]

It sounds like an aristocratic anime villain and it would enstrange their supporters

So I’m going to ask, because I can’t be bothered to actually google. But did Zoe Quinn actually have anything to do with any games being published under Zoe Mode?

 

[RokkanStoned]

Yeah I get what your saying. I guess it's just a fine line between questioning aspects and out right presuming guilt. I wouldn't like to think anyone outside of this forum takes action because of what they read here from our more "enthusiastic" members.

But just to be clear those are very, very few and it's easy to lose perspective in these emotional threads like Resetera clearly has in the opposite direction.

There are people that definitely presume guilt here as well and who hate Zoe Quinn a bit much (especially focusing a bit too much on her appearances, which I just think is a bit lazy and detracts from their point), but generally we have voices that try to balance that out. Just look at the Zoe Quinn kickstarter thread, whereupon some felt like calling it a scam right out the gate, while I tried to argue for a more cautioned approach (and that it might be, or it might not), and we had even one on the other side just outright defending her.
I think your careful approach is a good one and speaking against the masses/power is a good thing. Always be skeptical and make sure that one doesn't just perpetuate what you yourself found egregious. If you look into the abyss... well, you know the quote.

I do think most people are just showing their frustration with Zoe Quinn, mostly because there's a lot of dubious things about her. Nothing to "cancel" her over, she should be able to live happily and work, but enough to take a critical view of her and her behavior. It's not like she killed or forced Alec to commit suicide, but her reckless disregard for the consequences of using social media and her power to accuse him, without even taking any actions in regards to criminality, that was pretty shitty. It's not Zoe Quinn herself though that's the problem, it's the mob that forms and the companies/industries that'll throw you out to the wolves.

 

[Rien]

Why would you change your name from "van Valkenburg" to Zoë Quinn?! I guess because van Valkenburg sounds kinda majestic which she certainly is not.

Majestic? Its the most common sounding name I ever heared here in the Netherlands

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[llien]

There are people that definitely presume guilt here as well and who hate Zoe Quinn a bit much (especially focusing a bit too much on her appearances, which I just think is a bit lazy and detracts from their point), but generally we have voices that try to balance that out. Just look at the Zoe Quinn kickstarter thread, whereupon some felt like calling it a scam right out the gate, while I tried to argue for a more cautioned approach (and that it might be, or it might not), and we had even one on the other side just outright defending her they.
I think your careful approach is a good one and speaking against the masses/power is a good thing. Always be skeptical and make sure that one doesn't just perpetuate what you yourself found egregious. If you look into the abyss... well, you know the quote.

I do think most people are just showing their frustration with Zoe Quinn, mostly because there's a lot of dubious things about her they. Nothing to "cancel" her they over, she they should be able to live happily and work, but enough to take a critical view of her they and her them behavior. It's not like she they killed or forced Alec to commit suicide, but her them reckless disregard for the consequences of using social media and her them power to accuse him, without even taking any actions in regards to criminality, that was pretty shitty. It's not Zoe Quinn herself though that's the problem, it's the mob that forms and the companies/industries that'll throw you out to the wolves.

FTFY

 

[Hypereides]

Man, this entire situation has unearthed some things I never knew about Quinn. The photoshoot back in 00's, how she framed 4chan for hacking her tumblr, harassing a Kickstarter project about cyberbullying to shut it down, how she manipulated Wizardchan, to altering her mother's Amazon review... she sure has been busy.

As well as Alec suggesting how manipulative she is.

 

[JimmyRustler]

One major thing I get from all this is....

Western game development (and journalism) was a mistake, it is nothing but trash.

For the foreseeable future I will only buy used games from Western devs. Just cancel my MedEvil preorder. It was my only ongoing one from Western devs. From now on only Nintendo and Japanese devs get my $$$ directly.

For all I care Western game development can go up in falmes. What a shitshow.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

One major thing I get from all this is....

Western game development (and journalism) was a mistake, it is nothing but trash.

For the foreseeable future I will only buy used games from Western devs. Just cancel my MedEvil preorder. It was my only ongoing one from Western devs. From now on only Nintendo and Japanese devs get my $$$ directly.

For all I care Western game development can go up in falmes. What a shitshow.

Honestly, I've felt the same for quite some time.

I understand that gane dev's. dont like me (us). They dislike gamers, men, white men, straight white men.

 

[angelic]

Just as a massive generalisation, I find western indie devs to be utter prima donnas, with occasional exceptions like Thomas Happ. They want to be stars, not make games.

 

[cormack12]

I think the abilty to block people has been misused by a lot of these people. As well as 'don't @ me' and all the other shite. Online harassment is a real thing, but most of these frgaile progressives now equate 'questions' and 'critique' as harsssment. You'd have to be blind to not see it developing.

And all these empty alt-right statements - jesus christ. Politcally and emotionally stunted inviduals. The emergence of the safe spaces that allow everyone to converge around certain 'universal truths' and accept the discussion of more right aligned viewpoints only in terms of condemnation passes as 'free speeech' to them. There's a simple acid test, next time anyone says this, ask them to provide the name of a platform that they think offers fair and reasonable rpresentation to both ends of the spectrum and then laugh as they stutter and scrabble round frantically. It's not credible to paint everything as wrong without objective examples of what is 'right/acceptable'.

That tweet earlier about 4ch, GAF and KF as alt-right has been produced via indoctrination and built from social media tweets from other people. Labels applied with no personal responsibility or validation. Just passing the parcel to send up a flare they are 'for the cause!'

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Yes, let us be better than those shitheads on era.
Also, I'd consider my self leftist. But in no way I can understand what's going on with cancel culture and that SJW nonsense.

So that probably makes me "alt-right" as well..

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

Just as a massive generalisation, I find western indie devs to be utter prima donnas, with occasional exceptions like Thomas Happ. They want to be stars, not make games.

This too is a generalisation.

I think the question to be asked is "Did you become a game developer to make games, or to express a message?"

I have no issue with games used as allegories (Papers Please) or that can be morally ambiguous (Shadow of the Colossus).
I believe games are uniquely positioned, due to their interactivity, to make a stronger impression on the player than a non-interactive medium.

But if it's all about the message and the game itself is secondary to that - and you, as a developer, position yourself in the same way - then I would question if you are making games for others, or just for yourself.

 

[Teslerum]

Most dont have a grasp on history, or the abject misery most people lived in once civilisation became a thing. I had one professor explain how he loved egyptology so much as a youth and was so disillusioned in his first physical archeology uni class where the prof went over what the bone remains told us about the lives and health of 99% of ancient Egyptians (men, women, children) and how they were treated by the powers that were, he almost changed areas. It is genuinely horrific. Pop history of his youth did not prepare him for that.

Anyone that thinks men had it any better than women except for the one percent of the one percent don't know shit. Civilisation was a mistake.

.....

That's.... if you view everything under the lens of the 21st century. The problem is that's insulting in itself. If you talk about old egypt, if you talk about the 1900's, if you talk about.... whatever time period you're talking about you have to do so by taking a step back and not judge by your own preconceptions of how life should be.

That's not fair to history as its not fair to humanity. We don't live in a perfect world, we don't live in a magical land where you snap your fingers and everythings ok. Society has to go through changes. It's not like EVERYTHING was bad in those times either. And we tend to overlook that by making sweeping general statements, A vast maority of Men didn't go around constantly raping their wives a hunderd years ago either. Nor didn't women have zero power without voting rights. History is complex by our very nature.

 

[Halo is Back]

This too is a generalisation.

I think the question to be asked is "Did you become a game developer to make games, or to express a message?"

I have no issue with games used as allegories (Papers Please) or that can be morally ambiguous (Shadow of the Colossus).
I believe games are uniquely positioned, due to their interactivity, to make a stronger impression on the player than a non-interactive medium.

But if it's all about the message and the game itself is secondary to that - and you, as a developer, position yourself in the same way - then I would question if you are making games for others, or just for yourself.

I think most indie deva just want to makes cool games. However there will always be shit heads like Phill Phish

 

[Hypereides]

For the WizardChan incident I would recommend reading through this old Gaf thread from 2013. I want to make a couple of things clear though about the incident:
1. The thread was deleted as soon as Zoe went live with her claims. There is no archive to prove their innocence

(...)

That's partially true. I've noticed an image circulating around that seems to corroborate the validity of the incident. That said, it is unfortunate there doesn't exist an archive.

 

[hariseldon]

Don't forget Eastern Europe - lots of good stuff coming from them (Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come Deliverance being prime examples).

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[Halo is Back]

Found this interesting interview from just searching people talking about her.

Ironic for someone who fights online harassment. in the end she uses a social media platform with thousands of fans to defame someone who already apologized to her years ago.

 

[ExpandKong]

Found this interesting interview from just searching people talking about her.

Ironic for someone who fights online harassment. in the end she uses a social media platform with thousands of fans to defame someone who already apologized to her years ago.

She looks exactly like the type of woman you’d expect to drive a guy to suicide and then make it about her.

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[Robot Carnival]

had not been paying attention on this whole thing and didn't find out about the whole drama until just a little while ago. first of all, it's really unfortunate that the guy killed himself for this. second of all, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone on this, but I will never call someone "they" just because of some sort of self identity thing. if you don't like being refer to as he or she, make up something else then. it's a language thing and that's not debatable. and finally, I feel that all this can be avoided if the young lady only contacted the parties involve private and directly. the guy, the company he work with etc. take care of this privately, since I feel this is a very private matter. condolences to the deceased and his family. may he rest in peace.

 

[Shmunter]

Slightly to of to the side, but relevant...Andy Signore’s Cancel cancel culture...