GreyHorace
Member
Despite the overall cynicism of this tweet, it made me laugh.
An addendum, if you think the guy is a sexist pig.
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Strong Female Characters...
- Thread starter GreyHorace
- Start date
- Social Opinion Clickbait
Despite the overall cynicism of this tweet, it made me laugh.
An addendum, if you think the guy is a sexist pig.
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
It's true.
Shizumapower
Member
Alien came out in 1979. I have watched it 100 times and bought on every format (recently in 4k). Ripley is a great character in an great movie.
Great Movie. Great Character. Simple as that. Since 1979...
also..man -edit- women, they, xe, did I love Fury Road.
Great Movie. Great Character. Simple as that. Since 1979...
also..
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GreyHorace
Member
What makes Fury Road great is that Max and Furiosa are pretty much equals. Furiosa is obviously the main character since it's her arc which drives the plot forward, but she's only able to win the day with Max's help. His name is on the movie's title but it's through his eyes we watch Furiosa's story unfold and he obviously plays a big part in it. His character isn't demeaned to make Furiosa shine more.
Shizumapower
Member
Perfectly said. Love the little bit at the end... of, will he stay? Nope, he's on to next story and this was Furiosa's. Also, her introduction. of being branded on the neck (owned) tells the story so quickly. George Miller has great main character introductions.
DunDunDunpachi
Banned
It's almost as if the ideologues used fringe / spurious accusations to smear millions of people for the sake of silencing criticism. 
You have to wonder how trustworthy this lot is when they'd rather slander their customers and pretend criticism doesn't exist instead of... you know... self-reflecting.
Ideology aside, why would you want to purchase any product from any business that behaves in such a way?
You have to wonder how trustworthy this lot is when they'd rather slander their customers and pretend criticism doesn't exist instead of... you know... self-reflecting.
Ideology aside, why would you want to purchase any product from any business that behaves in such a way?
HellforLeather
Member
Yep this. Perfect characters are never very interesting. This is why everyone likes Batman but only weirdos like Superman.
GreyHorace
Member
Sometimes with the same character even.
Carol Danvers in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is a badass pilot turned superhero. She's excited by the prospect of joining the Avengers and becomes one of their strongest members but still defers to Captain America as the leader. She's friendly with the other members and a team player.
Carol in the MCU however...
Well... I guess I don't need to elaborate.
Superman is hardly smug nor is he perfect. When penned by a good writer he comes across as a man who feels burdened by the responsibility of trying to help anyone he can with his powers. He tries his best to hide this insecurity so as not to worry people. Garth Ennis of all people got this aspect of him right in the issue of Hitman where he guest starred.
Batman on the other hand can come across as the worst kind of Mary Sueish edgelord in the hands of lesser writers.
HellforLeather
Member
Sometimes with the same character even.
Carol Danvers in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is a badass pilot turned superhero. She's excited by the prospect of joining the Avengers and becomes one of their strongest members but still defers to Captain America as the leader. She's friendly with the other members and a team player.
Carol in the MCU however...
Well... I guess I don't need to elaborate.
Superman is hardly smug nor is he perfect. When penned by a good writer he comes across as a man who feels burdened by the responsibility of trying to help anyone he can with his powers. He tries his best to hide this insecurity so as not to worry people. Garth Ennis of all people got this aspect of him right in the issue of Hitman where he guest starred.
Batman on the other hand can come across as the worst kind of Mary Sueish edgelord in the hands of lesser writers.
Totally agree, it was more of a tongue in cheek comment. Not serious
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Japan does "strong" women better than Hollywood outside select movies. Kill Bill comes to mind but that was more of weeb movie than anything.
Shizumapower
Member
From 2017
23 secrets....
If we were anywhere close to Roddenberry's vision, this would not even be a topic.
www.google.com
4. Diversity, diversity, diversity.
When producer Bryan Fuller came on board Discovery, one of his biggest pushes was to keep the sense of forward movement in casting and diversity Gene Roddenberry's original vision brought to Star Trek. Fuller eventually left steering the ship full time, in favor of showrunners Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg, but that push remains.
It starts with the main cast, of course, but continues with the day players: Harberts noted that he's "very proud" of the incredibly diverse Toronto-based actors they've brought in to fill out the bridge of the Discovery (as well as the other ships). "It's amazing the depth of talent we've been able to mine here," Harberts added.
23 secrets....
If we were anywhere close to Roddenberry's vision, this would not even be a topic.
23 Secrets We Learned on the Star Trek: Discovery Set | TV Guide
You might say we... Discovered them
www.google.com
4. Diversity, diversity, diversity.
When producer Bryan Fuller came on board Discovery, one of his biggest pushes was to keep the sense of forward movement in casting and diversity Gene Roddenberry's original vision brought to Star Trek. Fuller eventually left steering the ship full time, in favor of showrunners Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg, but that push remains.
It starts with the main cast, of course, but continues with the day players: Harberts noted that he's "very proud" of the incredibly diverse Toronto-based actors they've brought in to fill out the bridge of the Discovery (as well as the other ships). "It's amazing the depth of talent we've been able to mine here," Harberts added.
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Pejo
Member
RainblowDash
Gold Member
Strong female protagonists can't overcome horrible horrible writing...
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Was Rey really the problem with the ST? I mean maybe a problem, but surely not THE problem?
Katee Sackoff said it best a couple years ago
“Battlestar Galactica didn’t have to tell you that Starbuck was a woman, she just was.”
Same goes for Ripley in Alien/Aliens
These are the standards that new female leads should be written toward
Katee Sackoff said it best a couple years ago
“Battlestar Galactica didn’t have to tell you that Starbuck was a woman, she just was.”
Same goes for Ripley in Alien/Aliens
These are the standards that new female leads should be written toward
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
It's the execution that is lacking these days.
We've always had strong female characters, that both men and women gladly root for and enjoy watching, and we still do. But lately writers are getting lazy as fuck and just tossing out boring, flawless, empty shells like Captain Marvel, who have no journey, face no measurable adversity, overcome no odds, experience no failures, learn absolutely nothing and are cool, smart and capable because the writer said so.
And then as the juicy cherry atop the icing of the shit cake, they tell us that we have two options. Love the character without question or be denounced as hateful, misogynistic pigs.
It's absurd, when you think about it.
We've always had strong female characters, that both men and women gladly root for and enjoy watching, and we still do. But lately writers are getting lazy as fuck and just tossing out boring, flawless, empty shells like Captain Marvel, who have no journey, face no measurable adversity, overcome no odds, experience no failures, learn absolutely nothing and are cool, smart and capable because the writer said so.
And then as the juicy cherry atop the icing of the shit cake, they tell us that we have two options. Love the character without question or be denounced as hateful, misogynistic pigs.
It's absurd, when you think about it.
EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.001
Confirms a lot of peoples theories, I think they're preparing for Captain Marvel 2 and finding the sweet spot with fans.
Shizumapower
Member
I forgot ... I forgot just how cringey it all is.
Timestamped.
Timestamped.
TUROK
Member
Yeah, I know the turbonerds are upset by them cause their lives consist entirely of consuming geeky fiction, but that don't mean shit. Only money matters.Japan does "strong" women better than Hollywood outside select movies. Kill Bill comes to mind but that was more of weeb movie than anything.
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brap
Banned
More like a rip off of Lady Snowblood.
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Did that movie have a racist chinese guy that was unironically based?
HellforLeather
Member
When you have good writing, it doesnt have to be. I know Ripley gets brought up a lot but if you really watch her character, shes definitely not the gung-ho action star...in fact, those people all get killed off pretty quickly.
Alien - basically becomes a traumatized victim.
Aliens - she realizes that she has to not only face her fears to overcome them, but is also driven by a sense of duty since she is one of the only people who really understands the threat. These reasons, along with her empathy for the colonists, is why she joins the mission on LV-426.
The finale is her basically reaching her breaking point. This threat has ruined her life, taken everything from her, and now its trying to take her surrogate family and any future that she could hope for and she aint having it....
Obviously she overcomes the threat and secures some kind of future for herself and takes back control in her life. Shes ceases to be a victim. This is the reason why the beginning of Alien 3 is such a slap in the face; it feels needlessly cruel and kinda tosses everything she fought for into the trash. But her character isn't defined by violence. Her character is defined by resiliency, compassion, and courage.
Or at least that's how I always saw it.
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The Cockatrice
Banned
Star Wars is doing fine because of nostalgia and hope. Star Trek is not doing fine at all. Picard from what I heard has gone downhill and Discovery is barely watched.
Strong female characters have existed in movies and tv since the 1930s. The difference is they were just characters, just like the male characters. No one tried to push an agenda with them or make a point. They just made a movie is all.
Ripley in alien and aliens was strong and she was awesome.
Pam grier was all kinds of bad ass in the 60s and 70s and she was a black woman.
They call her one eye, switchblade sisters, nurse ratchet in one flew over the cuckoo's nest, Joanne Crawford, better Davis, Fayed dunaway, cicely Tyson, I forgot the name of it but there was a gangster movie in the 40s where a woman ran a tough ass gang and went down shooting.
The idea of there are no strong women in entertainment is completely false and only the ignorant or stupid who cant find hundreds of examples think so. And the best ones are always the ones where it isn't an agenda, they are just written like any other character instead of focusing on their genitals.
Today's tough chics in movies are a fucking joke.
Ripley in alien and aliens was strong and she was awesome.
Pam grier was all kinds of bad ass in the 60s and 70s and she was a black woman.
They call her one eye, switchblade sisters, nurse ratchet in one flew over the cuckoo's nest, Joanne Crawford, better Davis, Fayed dunaway, cicely Tyson, I forgot the name of it but there was a gangster movie in the 40s where a woman ran a tough ass gang and went down shooting.
The idea of there are no strong women in entertainment is completely false and only the ignorant or stupid who cant find hundreds of examples think so. And the best ones are always the ones where it isn't an agenda, they are just written like any other character instead of focusing on their genitals.
Today's tough chics in movies are a fucking joke.
GoldenEye Samurai
Member
Japan does "strong" women better than Hollywood outside select movies. Kill Bill comes to mind but that was more of weeb movie than anything.
Since when was Kill Bill Japanese? It’s a Quentin Tarantino movie.
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Hoya Destroyer
Member
Alita was great. The movie had a nice story, good action and a feminine female character. I like.
quickwhips
Member
Nancy from a nightmare on elm street.
Buffy the vampire slayer
All it takes is good writers who want to make good stories vs cash grabs.
Buffy the vampire slayer
All it takes is good writers who want to make good stories vs cash grabs.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Doctor Who didn't tank because it had a strong female character as the lead. It tanked because the writing has been shit and been on a decline in quality since before she even got there. Same goes for Star Wars. It didn't fail because of a female lead. It failed because Disney had no idea what they were doing.
I haven't seen the Star Trek series though so I can't speak to that.
I haven't seen the Star Trek series though so I can't speak to that.
GoldenEye Samurai
Member
You can have well-written female leads without going into woke territory.
Doom85
Member
-claims these female characters destroyed franchises.
-posts Alita as a counter-example
Um, pretty sure I've yet to hear any sign of an Alita sequel, just saying. The film managed to make a profit but barely.
Also, LMAO at this view of the Star Wars fanbase. I actually remember the late 90's-mid 2000's, where tons of fans were pissed off, throwing temper tantrums, etc. Jake Lloyd (kid Anakin) and Ahmed Best (Jar Jar) went nuts and developed suicidal depression for a year respectively for a reason, you know. To quote Battlestar Galactica: "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again." Star Wars isn't dead, not by a long shot.
Also, we really trying to pretend Star Trek Discovery would be the breaking point for people? I think Star Trek movies 5 and 7 (7 itself isn't that bad, just how Kirk dies) would be more likely to do it, and the franchise survived those. Granted, I think 9 is the actual worse film of the franchise but I know most seem to hate 5 the most.
Funny, before he hit 30, Bruce Wayne became one of the most gifted martial artists in the world, THE best detective in the world, knew how to use a wide variety of gadgets with expert use, could run a company effectively despite barely having much time to commit to it, etc.
Like, if we were to use the term Mary Sue, Batman fits the bill far more than Superman. Superman's powers came from a singular source and fits within the logic of the type of story. Bruce Wayne is just "so gifted" that he mastered a ton of shit that virtually anyone would be lucky to master one, MAYBE two of in that amount of time. It's as Woody Harrelson said in True Detective, that when you pick what you want to be good at you better be sure it's the right choice as you're unlikely to get a different choice later on in life.
This is of course ignoring how he's often treated when a part of the Justice League. Say what you will about Batman v Superman, but the Doomsday fight is the rare instance I've seen Batman handled right in such a DC verse fight. He can't do shit against Doomsday, he just can distract him while the actual heavy hitters, Superman and WW, do the real damage. Heck, even in Batman: Hush, they have him beat Superman (who's under control of Poison Ivy) BUT during the fight Batman is internally monologue-ing about how even the slightest misstep or timing off by a second will result in him instantly losing, and how the only reason he EVER stands a chance against Superman is that Superman would never kill him, even while under mind control his willpower to not kill an innocent is so strong he won't kill Superman but just capture him. If he were willing to kill Batman, even Kryptonite wouldn't save him. Batman could hold up a Kryptonite ring, and Superman could just speed-dash into him before the Kryptonite could take effect and Batman is just a large blood stain everywhere.
THAT is how Batman should be written. But too many writers let their inner-fans get a hold of themselves, and they don't write Batman, they write BatGod. Please don't write BatGod.
-posts Alita as a counter-example
Um, pretty sure I've yet to hear any sign of an Alita sequel, just saying. The film managed to make a profit but barely.
Also, LMAO at this view of the Star Wars fanbase. I actually remember the late 90's-mid 2000's, where tons of fans were pissed off, throwing temper tantrums, etc. Jake Lloyd (kid Anakin) and Ahmed Best (Jar Jar) went nuts and developed suicidal depression for a year respectively for a reason, you know. To quote Battlestar Galactica: "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again." Star Wars isn't dead, not by a long shot.
Also, we really trying to pretend Star Trek Discovery would be the breaking point for people? I think Star Trek movies 5 and 7 (7 itself isn't that bad, just how Kirk dies) would be more likely to do it, and the franchise survived those. Granted, I think 9 is the actual worse film of the franchise but I know most seem to hate 5 the most.
Funny, before he hit 30, Bruce Wayne became one of the most gifted martial artists in the world, THE best detective in the world, knew how to use a wide variety of gadgets with expert use, could run a company effectively despite barely having much time to commit to it, etc.
Like, if we were to use the term Mary Sue, Batman fits the bill far more than Superman. Superman's powers came from a singular source and fits within the logic of the type of story. Bruce Wayne is just "so gifted" that he mastered a ton of shit that virtually anyone would be lucky to master one, MAYBE two of in that amount of time. It's as Woody Harrelson said in True Detective, that when you pick what you want to be good at you better be sure it's the right choice as you're unlikely to get a different choice later on in life.
This is of course ignoring how he's often treated when a part of the Justice League. Say what you will about Batman v Superman, but the Doomsday fight is the rare instance I've seen Batman handled right in such a DC verse fight. He can't do shit against Doomsday, he just can distract him while the actual heavy hitters, Superman and WW, do the real damage. Heck, even in Batman: Hush, they have him beat Superman (who's under control of Poison Ivy) BUT during the fight Batman is internally monologue-ing about how even the slightest misstep or timing off by a second will result in him instantly losing, and how the only reason he EVER stands a chance against Superman is that Superman would never kill him, even while under mind control his willpower to not kill an innocent is so strong he won't kill Superman but just capture him. If he were willing to kill Batman, even Kryptonite wouldn't save him. Batman could hold up a Kryptonite ring, and Superman could just speed-dash into him before the Kryptonite could take effect and Batman is just a large blood stain everywhere.
THAT is how Batman should be written. But too many writers let their inner-fans get a hold of themselves, and they don't write Batman, they write BatGod. Please don't write BatGod.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I'd put Marcy as a stronger female lead than just about any recent female character:
marriedwithchildren.fandom.com
She originally worked as a loan officer at the city bank (in a higher position than her husband, Steve) and then as the manager of the Kyoto National Bank from the second season. But for a brief time, she was demoted to drive-up window teller as punishment for approving a loan Al could not repay (in fact the purpose was to make Al able to repay a previous loan approved by Steve, but Al instead turned this loan into his "shoe hotline" project as well, and lost it too). She won back her old job after frugging on her boss's desk for 20 minutes, clad only in a slip, while the other drive-up window tellers tossed quarters at her. Marcy holds a Bachelor's degree in economics.
Personality
Initially, Marcy was a sweet, wholesome newlywed, but years of living next to the Bundys apparently warped her into a character almost as outrageous as the Bundys. She contemptuously bickered with Al, and reveled in his misery. One of the reasons for her hatred of Al is his chauvinistic view of women. Marcy seemed to have a disturbing dark side, and enjoys sharing her past memories with Peg, but often tends to get lost in them. At various points in the series, she is identified as a who looks down on the Bundy clan, but is also a environmentalist. Marcy is an active feminist, who seeks superiority over men based solely on the fact that as women they are automatically better than men. She is often portrayed being sexist towards men which is ironic since she frequently calls Al out on his chauvinism. She admonishes male strip clubs as demeaning women yet doesn't see anything wrong into going to one for women where men dance for them. During the dream arc, where she and Peggy were pregnant she and her pregnant women's group took over Al's garage/private room on the grounds that as women they can do anything they want and take whatever they want from men just because they are women, calling themselves W.O.M.B for (Women. Owe. Men. Bupkiss).
Marcy D'Arcy
"Well Steve, I guess much like our honeymoon, it's up to me to finish the job and pay the bill!" Marcy D'Arcy (played by Amanda Bearse), formerly Marcy Rhoades, is Peg Bundy's best friend, Al's nemesis, and the family's next door neighbor on the FOX series Married... with Children. Though she...
She originally worked as a loan officer at the city bank (in a higher position than her husband, Steve) and then as the manager of the Kyoto National Bank from the second season. But for a brief time, she was demoted to drive-up window teller as punishment for approving a loan Al could not repay (in fact the purpose was to make Al able to repay a previous loan approved by Steve, but Al instead turned this loan into his "shoe hotline" project as well, and lost it too). She won back her old job after frugging on her boss's desk for 20 minutes, clad only in a slip, while the other drive-up window tellers tossed quarters at her. Marcy holds a Bachelor's degree in economics.
Personality
Initially, Marcy was a sweet, wholesome newlywed, but years of living next to the Bundys apparently warped her into a character almost as outrageous as the Bundys. She contemptuously bickered with Al, and reveled in his misery. One of the reasons for her hatred of Al is his chauvinistic view of women. Marcy seemed to have a disturbing dark side, and enjoys sharing her past memories with Peg, but often tends to get lost in them. At various points in the series, she is identified as a who looks down on the Bundy clan, but is also a environmentalist. Marcy is an active feminist, who seeks superiority over men based solely on the fact that as women they are automatically better than men. She is often portrayed being sexist towards men which is ironic since she frequently calls Al out on his chauvinism. She admonishes male strip clubs as demeaning women yet doesn't see anything wrong into going to one for women where men dance for them. During the dream arc, where she and Peggy were pregnant she and her pregnant women's group took over Al's garage/private room on the grounds that as women they can do anything they want and take whatever they want from men just because they are women, calling themselves W.O.M.B for (Women. Owe. Men. Bupkiss).
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
What
sol_bad
Member
And that's what these threads should be focusing on when making these criticisms. Talk about the writers, not the characters themselves.
Ripley is an interesting example because she makes a fairly major mistake in Aliens that eventually gets Bishop and Newt killed and herself infected. She didn't HAVE to blow up the queens eggs, the whole place was gonna blow up anyway, and she didnt even save a round for the queen herself. But she did what I'd expect a woman to do in that situation and then had to deal with the consequences.
Cameron really knows how to portray strong women but retain key elements of their femininity and (usually) maternity. Sarah Connor, Ripley in Aliens, whatshername in The Abyss, etc. His characters are undeniably women, not male characters played by an actress.
Cameron really knows how to portray strong women but retain key elements of their femininity and (usually) maternity. Sarah Connor, Ripley in Aliens, whatshername in The Abyss, etc. His characters are undeniably women, not male characters played by an actress.
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Used to anyway.
H
The women in Avatar were all pretty good characters, Rodriquez's suicide attack not withstanding. I'm not sure how much input he really makes on a character level in stuff like Dark Fate (which I didnt really mind, hamfisted as it was. I can totally see Connor going all manhating, she was already leaning that way in T2) or Alita. Seems like he is more interested in the technical aspects to me.
Anyway, stuff like Captain Marvel could be interesting discussions about what women might be like if they were as physically powerful, if not more so, than all the men around them. Would they become conquering jerks like men or would their femininity temper them in some way? But instead we get a "I can punch as hard as you" boring sexless character arc. I like women like Cersei Lannister who use their gender gifts to dominate, rather than just magically swing a sword as hard as a man.
Paracelsus
Member
If the characters are woke, it means it's because the writers are woke.
If the writers are woke and the writing is trash, it's quite totally possible they were hired because of a woke agenda and not because they earned it through experience and because of their skills (Star Wars is a perfect example, as it's Marvel and DC comics).
So yeah, to put it bluntly, it's the same thing.
The gaming equivalent is Bioware.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Wonder Woman was "woke" and so was Captain Marvel and they were box office successes. That's because they were actually GOOD. The failure of Who and Star Wars may have been aided by "woke" female leads, but they were not the sole cause. As I said in the instance of Who the writing had been declining for quite some time before she even got there. And Star Wars is just a mess from a story standpoint.
VulcanRaven
Member
Rey didn't ruin the new trilogy. She was a good character in my opinion. The movies were bad for other reasons.
Paracelsus
Member
Wonder Woman wasn't woke, and Captain Marvel wasn't good. It sold for other reasons.
In many's opinion instead the biggest problem is that everything in the trilogy has to pander to her.
The quickest way to tell what's wrong with the ST is "Skywalker Rey". Ultimately that's all they wanted, the entire trilogy, as well as PT and OT, bend over backwards to cater to her.
She's so much of a mary sue that the bad guy fails to redeem himself, gets defeated, and then kills himself just so she can live in the spot that is his (Ben Solo is technically the last true Skywalker).
She's "what if writers took seriously Poochie from the Simpsons".
In many's opinion instead the biggest problem is that everything in the trilogy has to pander to her.
The quickest way to tell what's wrong with the ST is "Skywalker Rey". Ultimately that's all they wanted, the entire trilogy, as well as PT and OT, bend over backwards to cater to her.
She's so much of a mary sue that the bad guy fails to redeem himself, gets defeated, and then kills himself just so she can live in the spot that is his (Ben Solo is technically the last true Skywalker).
She's "what if writers took seriously Poochie from the Simpsons".
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Schrödinger's cat
Banned
It's almost as if the [bad] writing is more focused on preaching a particular sermon than serving the needs of the story and the characters.
Hmmm.
Gee. It's like those bringing up the topic of the writing are so close to connecting the dots to what's going on....
....but then they'd see where those dots lead and they have no choice but to NOPE the hell out of there.
Hmmm.
Gee. It's like those bringing up the topic of the writing are so close to connecting the dots to what's going on....
....but then they'd see where those dots lead and they have no choice but to NOPE the hell out of there.
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S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Wrong. They were box office successes because they are cape shit.
ThatStupidLion
Member
one of my favorite female lead characters ( i know its a game, but she definitely falls into the great female MCs of yesteryear)