DrROBschiz
Member
There is a cozy balance to be found here somewhere
These first two DLCs are going to ber very interesting
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A critique of Destiny 2's issues (power, loot, end-game) by one of the top players
- Thread starter The à¹ÛBronx
- Start date
There is a cozy balance to be found here somewhere
These first two DLCs are going to ber very interesting
That claim cannot be substantiated - I am loving D2.
Ordinaryundone
Member
I don't have too much to say about the PvE, I generally like it and think it's an improvement over D1 (though it'd be nice if some of the old strikes and raids were in the game just for variety). However, his point on the Crucible is spot on. It really isn't very fun anymore.
It seemed like it worked because the "Destiny without the bullshit" review likely motivated many people to buy it that otherwise would have ignored it. Casuals and mid-level players are a large audience that buy games too and you'll have to live with that.
Toe-Knee
Member
When my son was born playing d1 went straight out of the window. I couldn't keep up with my friends and it just made the game no fun.
He's now 2. I feel like I've had my money's worth with d2 as I've done most of the raid got a lot of exotics and been able to play with my friends and that's only playing 4-5 hours a week.
I missed out entirely on the roi raid due to my friends getting to it months before me and not wanting to play it anymore by the time I got to the required light level.
However I do miss some of the tedium of d1.
I just realised that I haven't played a strike in d2 yet.
He's now 2. I feel like I've had my money's worth with d2 as I've done most of the raid got a lot of exotics and been able to play with my friends and that's only playing 4-5 hours a week.
I missed out entirely on the roi raid due to my friends getting to it months before me and not wanting to play it anymore by the time I got to the required light level.
However I do miss some of the tedium of d1.
I just realised that I haven't played a strike in d2 yet.
GlamFM
Banned
I don´t think the problem lies in the core progression.
Having a clear (and easy) path to max light is fine - having nothing beyond that is not.
I think what people want out of random rolls could be achieved with a deeper mod system.
I also think that cosmetics could be tied to a deeper, longer grind.
He´s a quick idea I came up with:
To unlock an ornament for an exotic you have to get 10.000 kills with it in STRIKES.
You fix 3 things at once!
-A reason to play at all
-A reason to use an exotic
-A reason to play strikes
Stuff like this would not disrupt the user-base and go a long way for people who want stuff to do.
Niceguydan8
Member
The jury is still out on that front. Over 12 million players played the first game.
Those sorts of numbers suggest that mid-level and potentially even some casuals were already on board with at least giving Destiny a shot.
Crimson_Gold
Member
I don't have the vitriol I expected to have towards Destiny at this stage of the game. I was wrong about D2 in some ways....I expected less content. Some of the QoL changes have been nice (although the vault re-ordering itself after depositing / withdrawing is crazy incompetent on Bungie's part). I am not angry I bought and pre-ordered the game.
HOWEVER....Slayerage is also right. The endgame and PvP is a dumpster fire.
The raid itself is cursed in two ways. The loot is garbage and the raid itself doesn't really have a lot of replayability. I joked with buddies that I bought a shooter game to shoot things and the raid really minimizes that. Once you're in a group that knows the gimmicks...and yes, they're gimmicks / arbitrary restrictions, you're pretty much good to go. And some of the small changes, like rez a teammate within 30 seconds or wipe? Infuriating and doesn't make the raid more fun for me.
I honestly think Crota was a better raid at this point.
PvP is in a bad spot for reasons I find interesting. Bungie is really big on consistency. They want guns / weapons / abilities to behave similarly or the same across game modes because they find it jarring for the player. That argument makes sense. One can disagree with it (why not 60 fps for PvP? etc), but it has merit on its own....
And then they go and change PvP by a huge amount between D1 and D2.
In D1, you could be a lone wolf. 6 vs 6 was chaotic and more importantly, abilities and movement was a lot faster. You could escape bad situations, engage quicker, and generally carry a lot better. Oh sure, if the game became lopsided, 4 vs 6, 3 vs 6, you'd still be teamshot into oblivion....but the speed + power allowed lone wolves. For better or worse, all the guys I play with fit this mold for the most part.
D2 is a jarring change, by comparison. 4 vs 4, we move slower, we can't escape as easily, and the slower speeds + MIDA EVERYWHERE = radar that people use to easily see people coming. Lone wolfing is, objectively, the wrong way to play. If you're not sticking with your team you're doing it wrong.
It doesn't make D2 PvP worse than D1....but if you liked D1 PvP, it's a jarring change, and a lot of people hate change.
As for loot? There either needs to be a LOT more loot or randomized perks. Hating on randomized perks because you hate grinding is fine. Having no randomized perks and such a low amount of viable top tier gear is a vicious double whammy that really does make it easy to go "Well....no reason to log in anymore."
HOWEVER....Slayerage is also right. The endgame and PvP is a dumpster fire.
The raid itself is cursed in two ways. The loot is garbage and the raid itself doesn't really have a lot of replayability. I joked with buddies that I bought a shooter game to shoot things and the raid really minimizes that. Once you're in a group that knows the gimmicks...and yes, they're gimmicks / arbitrary restrictions, you're pretty much good to go. And some of the small changes, like rez a teammate within 30 seconds or wipe? Infuriating and doesn't make the raid more fun for me.
I honestly think Crota was a better raid at this point.
PvP is in a bad spot for reasons I find interesting. Bungie is really big on consistency. They want guns / weapons / abilities to behave similarly or the same across game modes because they find it jarring for the player. That argument makes sense. One can disagree with it (why not 60 fps for PvP? etc), but it has merit on its own....
And then they go and change PvP by a huge amount between D1 and D2.
In D1, you could be a lone wolf. 6 vs 6 was chaotic and more importantly, abilities and movement was a lot faster. You could escape bad situations, engage quicker, and generally carry a lot better. Oh sure, if the game became lopsided, 4 vs 6, 3 vs 6, you'd still be teamshot into oblivion....but the speed + power allowed lone wolves. For better or worse, all the guys I play with fit this mold for the most part.
D2 is a jarring change, by comparison. 4 vs 4, we move slower, we can't escape as easily, and the slower speeds + MIDA EVERYWHERE = radar that people use to easily see people coming. Lone wolfing is, objectively, the wrong way to play. If you're not sticking with your team you're doing it wrong.
It doesn't make D2 PvP worse than D1....but if you liked D1 PvP, it's a jarring change, and a lot of people hate change.
As for loot? There either needs to be a LOT more loot or randomized perks. Hating on randomized perks because you hate grinding is fine. Having no randomized perks and such a low amount of viable top tier gear is a vicious double whammy that really does make it easy to go "Well....no reason to log in anymore."
DrROBschiz
Member
The need to make more guns and have less loot in the same pools across multiple vendors
Having Iron Banner drop old legendaries is fucking annoying
Planets, Strikes, Public events, Vendors, etc etc etc should ALL have separate loot pools with unique items
Even Lost sectors should have exclusive loots. Adventures should have more LORE heavy loot.
Give us a REASON to run through every nook and cranny of the game!
Razzmatazzer
Member
Seemed like it worked? Where's the proof? I know plenty of people that skipped D2 because they assumed it was like D1.
And regardless, I 100% agree that low/mid-level players make up a huge audience. Us D1 fans are not saying to screw them over and out of an awesome experience. But how can you not grasp that the people that loved D1 wanted some of that experience to carry over?
Bungie clearly has a pretty good game for the low/mid level players now, seems pretty easy for people to "keep up." But why were the hardcore fans, the ones that kept Destiny alive for 3 damn years, pretty much ignored?!
Dreams-Visions
Member
Thanks for the perspective. Considering cancelling my PC preorder.
GlamFM
Banned
We´re no-lifers, sub-humans, we´re worthless and our opinions don´t matter and should not be taken into consideration.
BTW, I notice a pattern in this thread. The "no lifers" try to come up with ideas that work for EVERYBODY while the super awesome and superior "life people" are straight up going "leave it like it is and fuck the hardcore".
Unfortunately, some people seem to think that is the answer. And they may as well just quit the game now because Bungie is never going to bring back that over the top RNG from Year 1.
A lot more loot or RNG. Has to be one or the other. I'd prefer the former, but that requires a lot of work from Bungie.
Ive been quietly hoping Bungie held back some cool weapons and armor for the first dlc since everyone criticized TDB. It just feels like there are no endgame guns or gear atm. I need some ballin ass gear!
Niceguydan8
Member
Why do you seem to think that the only form of RNG is Destiny year 1 RNG? Especially after years 2 and 3 that addressed said RNG.
GlamFM
Banned
Razzmatazzer
Member
It's so weird to see so many people scared of rng in a LOOT game... Is this your first loot experience or something? RNG is not something to be scared of, it's pretty damn fun!
like your idea. needs to be more hard to achieve armor to make your progression stand out.
Why in the world strikes dont have cosmetic drops is beyond me. That was so huge in D1. The game is so short on cosmetic drops right now.
When I see D1 hardcores say things like they want clan rewards arbitrarily taken away it makes me think they are trying to gatekeep the experience for others who do things other than play Destiny on their consoles. I proposed a compromise where you keep the current D2 progression but have an optional vertical progression for those who want to be on the treadmill with the benefit being maybe choosing your weapon perks or something but it got lost because I said a phrase people didn't like, lol.
SuperBattleGenius
Neo Member
As a dude who played D1 extensively but only in crucible, I have to say, I love what D2 has done.
I played with a friend and we never would do Raids because we couldn't devote ourselves to it. We just played in one of two hour spurts with maybe two sessions per week due to our schedules... so it kind of made hitting endgame content tough for us because we couldn't be as dedicated.
I cleared my first Destiny Raid in Leviathan and it was awesome! I actually was gear-spec'd properly without having to sink in a ton of hours to do it.
I get why some people complain and see it as a negative, but personally, for me, I love that if I can get the luck of a draw and get a specific gun, I'm set. I don't have to worry about the stat rolls.
I played with a friend and we never would do Raids because we couldn't devote ourselves to it. We just played in one of two hour spurts with maybe two sessions per week due to our schedules... so it kind of made hitting endgame content tough for us because we couldn't be as dedicated.
I cleared my first Destiny Raid in Leviathan and it was awesome! I actually was gear-spec'd properly without having to sink in a ton of hours to do it.
I get why some people complain and see it as a negative, but personally, for me, I love that if I can get the luck of a draw and get a specific gun, I'm set. I don't have to worry about the stat rolls.
Niceguydan8
Member
I don't want to gatekeep, but I also think it's just kind of lame. Why do people get rewards for simply being in the same clan as somebody that did a raid?
I'll contrast it with Warframe, where my clanmates can decide together "hey, we should go for (x) weapon, want to do missions together to get the materials we need to be able to get the blueprint?" grinding aside, it encourages working together. Me getting a raid gun because my buddy did the raid doesn't accomplish that same thing. I think it also cheapens the value of getting a cool raid gun since one could theoretically just get it by never doing the raid.
I don't want raid rewards gone, I just think the way they work now doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
People wanting to take away clan awards is bizarre to me. That being said, when engrams were popping out at 10 power, I honestly thought that was by design. I thought it was a great idea. Here's loot that you got because your clan earned it for you, but you have to infuse it. Struck me as a great compromise.
Alas, no, just another way to speed us on our way of having no reason to log in (loot wise).
DrROBschiz
Member
The amount of weapon reskins they keep pushing out for Vanilla D2 is concerning
I thought the whole point of rebooting the engine and bolstering the team was to get fresh content to us faster
And yes the first expansion is coming fast but it better be BIG
Cuz otherwise I question what the fuck their 500+ staff is doing especially since they have plenty of funding and better tools
The clan rewards are just there to get more people to engage with the clan system that otherwise wouldn't I imagine. It seems to be a running theme: Bungie is trying to get those people who didn't engage with Destiny 1 to engage more with the sequel and if it's at the expense of some salty hardcores then they seem to be comfortable with that.
GlamFM
Banned
Same, lol.
I thought "that´s fair" and was actually surprised when they acknowledged it was a bug.
They could have left it the way it was - nobody complained.
Niceguydan8
Member
The point I'm making is that I think the way they are trying to get people to engage with the clan system isn't interesting. It doesn't have to be some massive grind like some Warframe weapons are but I also think handing people weapons for not even actually doing anything is not even close to the best solution either.
I want more people to engage with Destiny systems, but I think the clan rewards solution is not remotely interesting and half-assed.
Darryl M R
Member
I like this and I agree it solves what people really want when asking for RNG. A reason to drop more hours in.
DrROBschiz
Member
Yeah for sure
But D1 got really good by the time House of Wolves settled in and kept getting better with each expansion
Im hoping D2 hits that stride even faster
Papo Swing
Member
My personal opinion is that Destiny 2 is better than 1 at being Destiny, but it makes it worse.
Part of the struggle of the first game was the grind. Sometimes it really sucked running a raid/Nightfall and not getting what you want. At the same time this allowed me to meet a lot of people and complain in unison while having tons of fun.
Now in Destiny 2 the loots drops are fixed and I get a lot of stuff just from patrols and the public events feel a lot better but that has made it so a lot fo the grinding is not there or necessary. I thas also made me plays less of the Nightfall/Strikes/Raid because there rewards are good enough in Patrols.
Destiny 2 being better has also made me play less. I think after the initial hype and binge it is only this week that I will run out of stuff to be able to buy from Xur and I don't care. In Destiny 1 I barely had stuff to buy the guns fromXur at this point and even though it sucked there was fun in the struggle.
Part of the struggle of the first game was the grind. Sometimes it really sucked running a raid/Nightfall and not getting what you want. At the same time this allowed me to meet a lot of people and complain in unison while having tons of fun.
Now in Destiny 2 the loots drops are fixed and I get a lot of stuff just from patrols and the public events feel a lot better but that has made it so a lot fo the grinding is not there or necessary. I thas also made me plays less of the Nightfall/Strikes/Raid because there rewards are good enough in Patrols.
Destiny 2 being better has also made me play less. I think after the initial hype and binge it is only this week that I will run out of stuff to be able to buy from Xur and I don't care. In Destiny 1 I barely had stuff to buy the guns fromXur at this point and even though it sucked there was fun in the struggle.
Well, thats like walking into every major casino in Las Vegas and telling them that people dont wanna gamble anymore. There is clearly an audience for the gambling mechanics within Destiny, and they want more of it in D2. It remains to be seen whether Bungie adds more gambling mechanics (RNG) or not.
Personally, I made that mistake in D1, but never again. D2 is in a good RNG spot IMO, it just needs some tweaking for those people that wanna grind for hours.
Ehh, nope. I would not like that at all.
GlamFM
Banned
That´s ok though, and that´s the point.
You´d be missing out on an ornament - no big deal.
Hoho for breakfast
Member
Even if it were an actual exclusive exotic...so what?
I do not play Trials. I do not raid. If I miss out on something because of that I understand those are the breaks. I'm not calling for Bungie to make the Raid or Trials easier for me. I understand that if I want that gear then I would have to make time or practice more or whatever and go play that content.
Talking about bringing back the random perk rolls is particularly ridiculous. Rolls on top of rolls on top of rolls. Such a superficial waste of time that didn't matter much at all for any PvE content in D1. Bungie probably looked at the stats and saw most players weren't engaging deeply with that system.
Edit: Bungie should be thinking about how to make strikes and Ikora's challenges more relevant.
Edit: Bungie should be thinking about how to make strikes and Ikora's challenges more relevant.
And? There were still more casual players playing the game for those 3 years. That's how it works with popular titles. There is a vocal minority complaining there aren't enough time sinks and grinds while acting like they carried the game. That's a fact.
What made borderlands 2 (King of loot shooters in my opinion) so great was that balancing for pvp was non-existent. You could have auto pistols with unlimited ammo or a permanently charged shield.
Obviously Bungie isn't going to completely drop PvP but balancing has hamstrung PvE loot. But there's gotta be some middle ground
Obviously Bungie isn't going to completely drop PvP but balancing has hamstrung PvE loot. But there's gotta be some middle ground
Why do you keep changing the context? I'm referring to people talking about year 1.
No, 10,000 kills to be able to use an ornament is monumentally silly.
Put strike-specific gear back in the game and add in a heroic strike playlist. Making people play strikes over and over to use a single ornament out of many is bad game design.
ethomaz
Banned
No, that is a good analogy.
Here in Brasil we have artificial lakes where it is cultivated fishes to you catch but the fishes are left starving to make easy to everybody fish. It is ridiculous boring but most big city guys only had this artificial fishing experience so they see that like the real fishing experience.
The reward to stay on a river fighting to catch a fish after some hours of nothing is wonderful... you take pictures, shows friends, the emotion, the feeling... everything makes the hours of hours whorty of it.
Destiny vanilla made the reward thing a big, emotional event... it was an experience others games didnt give you.
After TTK the changes started and now we reached the bottom with D2. There is basically any meaning in being reward in D2... it is secondary.
There's a lot of interest in the ARPG style loot system where affixes roll from a pool that have a possible stat range. The concept isn't ridiculous. It's just a matter of taste.
A game like Diablo 3 in its current form does this well.
Many legendary items will always roll with a certain modifier/perk that makes it unique and will often times greatly influence your build. The item is still influential but there's the possibility of finding the same item with better stat rolls.
You start talking about a game with loot drops and being a "loot" game, I'd argue most people expect that kind of system.
Not liking that system is obviously personal preference, and that's great, but I think this speaks to the identity crisis that Destiny has.
Lanrutcon
Member
It's not my first loot experience, that's why I know RNG IS something to be scared of.
*3 hour raid*
*copy #14 of Wonder Pants*
*reconsider life choices*
or
*weekly whatever*
*item unique to event drops*
*sees rolls are utter shite*
*reconsider life choices*
GlamFM
Banned
Opposed to hoping for it to be in a bright engram or just buying it with real money? I don´t think so.
It´s a clear, but optional path towards something that will show how much effort you put into it.
My point from earlier stands:
I notice a pattern in this thread. The "hardcore" try to come up with ideas that work for EVERYBODY while the casual are straight up going "leave it like it is and fuck the hardcore".
Seems like there is nothing to gain from this thread.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
You edited out half his post that actually had suggestions?
The problem isn't that one side or another aren't suggesting shit. It's each side has different goals which easily conflict with each other.
Mods are the solution to make weapons more fun in pve. Weapons should have more mod slots. Maybe 1 to 3 depending on the weapon. Performance mods. Perk mods. Let's say you want to have an assault rifle specialized in killing cabal. You install the mod, kill 500 yellow centurions. You now have a cabal killer AR. Maybe the perks could be more creative like crit kills add "fear" debuff to nearby enemies lowering their rate of fire for a while.
Performance mods could improve the gun while adding a small penalty. Higher rate of fire, but less accuracy. Bigger magazine, but slower reload. More accuracy, but slower movement.
Maybe exotic mods with crazy perks. Turn your legendary into an exotic. Xur could sell tools to remove mods without destroying them. Maybe you're not happy with your cabal killer AR and want to place that mod in a hand cannon instead.
Disable mods in pvp and we're golden.
Mods need to have more depth.
Performance mods could improve the gun while adding a small penalty. Higher rate of fire, but less accuracy. Bigger magazine, but slower reload. More accuracy, but slower movement.
Maybe exotic mods with crazy perks. Turn your legendary into an exotic. Xur could sell tools to remove mods without destroying them. Maybe you're not happy with your cabal killer AR and want to place that mod in a hand cannon instead.
Disable mods in pvp and we're golden.
Mods need to have more depth.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Exactly. And every really good loot game I've played has had this semi-random affix pool. In that sense they aren't "random", a particular weapon type could have 5 possible affixes that fit that weapon type. There may be one that is the worst and one that is the best for an item, but if the pool is picked out intentionally by Bungie it will be more about synergy with other items and therefore what fits your build best. Problem is Destiny 1 didn't do that properly which is why so many people are saying "rng baaad" when it's actually great when done properly.