kirby_cholo
Banned
I actually agree with you.
I have the (unpopular) opinion that he won't finish the books.
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A Song of Ice and Fire BOOK Discussion |OT2| Unmarked SPOILERS for Published Material
- Thread starter Basileus777
- Start date
I actually agree with you.
I have the (unpopular) opinion that he won't finish the books.
Given what I've read, and what Martin has said in the past, and how the books and story have grown. One could only conclude that it would not end at a 7th book. There is just too much, and it seems another book or two are needed to wrap things up neatly. Oh well.
I don't know how you can tolerate this series on audiobook. I usually like audiobooks but I can't stand the narrators here. Dotrice's regular reading voice would be fine but he tries to do voices and they all sound like different variations of 80 year old pirates, even Arya. It's awful. He also does weird things like pronounce Petyr as Pe-tire.
CopperPuppy
Member
This is an unpopular opinion?
As much as I hate to say it, GRRM seems increasingly disenchanted with writing new material every time he speaks publicly about doing so. I am becoming more skeptical that we will see the series end in a timely manner.
I used to think all the rumormongering about him not being interested in finishing the series was nonsense, and to a large extent I still do. That said, I think the rumormongering has combined with the series' heightened visibility to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts; the once-false rumors about his motivation have fed in to public pressure that is actually sapping his motivation.
Enosh
Member
I think he will finish it but the endings will be heavily influenced by what the TV show does, so i expect some nonsensical plot twist and characters doing 180°s from their previous characterizations
I even think that he said something to that effect several times already himself. Originally, he just wanted to write three books. Then the story grew, and then he had to split up story lines into book 4 and 5 because he could not manage the sheer amount of characters and events otherwise. Currently, he is struggling to finish book six, and his editor is already talking about a potential book 8. The reality of how the books are progressing has become so detached of his plans, it indicates that he is basically wrestling with the story instead of having a clear vision of how to arrive at the original end.
I also have the impression that he has enough of Westeros. He has been writing this story for over 20 years now. It's probably impossible to not get sick of it. I wouldn't be surprised if all of this has an impact on his motivation and writing efficiency.
Rand0m TAG
Member
any good books other than the main ones i should get or read? is their a set of main books with artwork?
Tell me about it. Arya chapters were the best part of those last books. Her chapters were always interesting, while chapters like Brienne and most of the Ironborns felt like filler and padding and more filler.
I hope he realises his mistakes in TWOW and kills everyone leaving only Arya alive.
Heh.
You know nothing, DKehoe.
I get the feeling he's happy to just let the show finish everything up now. The last book will just read "See HBO->"
I guess I don't see that. What Martin has done thus far is astounding. It takes a lot of energy and time to construct the world he has so it makes sense that books are taken five or more years to come out. I don't care how long it takes or how many books it expands to. I've never read anything as deep and nuanced as A Song of Ice and Fire. It really is incredible.
Basileus777
Member
I think he still loves the setting, it's why he can quickly write hundreds of thousands of words about the lore and backstory for a world book. It's the structural mess that is the main series that is his problem.
Don't forget the usual morbid "he's going to die soon probably" posts. The entitlement is absolutely disgusting.
And the more he writes, the more it seems he makes it even harder to bring everything together.
He's also spoken in some detail about his plans to write an anthology about the Targaryen dynasty, his GRRMarillion. Not to mention the fact that he's still a huge supporter of the show, despite the fact that HBO have pretty much eaten his lunch. AND he still has plans to write, like, five more Dunk and Egg novellas.
He loves Westeros, he loves the world he's created, but I think he would characterize his relationship with the ASOAIF series itself less affectionately. It's a burden.
There's clear evidence at the end of Dance of people and events being moved together. Storm (and the war of the five kings) separated people but Feast/Dance moved everyone into place for the next big events.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
"And the more he wrote the more he shat".
At this point, for all the jokes and shit, I am 100% legit concerned he will never get to finish the final book. And not because of his health or weight or anything, but just because he is writing so slowly and time is becomig a legit concern. Realistically, he will be 75 at the youngest when he completes the final book... That is if he finishes this one this year and starts writing the next one right away.
So yeah, I am preparing for never seeing the proper conclusion to this series.
And no, this isn't throwing shade at Martin, I hope he makes it to 100, but statistically, it is becoming a very legit possibility at this point.
So yeah, I am preparing for never seeing the proper conclusion to this series.
And no, this isn't throwing shade at Martin, I hope he makes it to 100, but statistically, it is becoming a very legit possibility at this point.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Has GRRM ever made a statement regarding ghost writers/ having another author help finish the series? At this point I feel that its the only way itll happen now.
That both the Star Wars prequel AND sequel trilogies will have come and gone before the series is over fills me with dread.
That both the Star Wars prequel AND sequel trilogies will have come and gone before the series is over fills me with dread.
Archaeopteryx
Member
He's said it won't happen.
As far as I know, the story is all in his head. No ghost writers, though I could see the publisher finishing the story regardless.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
i'm not a lawyer, but i would think they would need consent from his estate. and i would imagine his wife would respect his wish not to finish the series.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Then as Ripley said in Alien 3:
"Were fucked."
John Dunbar
correct about everything
I've never known a fandom to be so pessimistic. C'mon guys it's surely coming out this year; get hype!
my womb has not yet quickened.
I've never known a fandom to be so pessimistic. C'mon guys it's surely coming out this year; get hype!
The problem with hype is that it burns out over time.
Basileus777
Member
I've never known a fandom to be so pessimistic. C'mon guys it's surely coming out this year; get hype!
15 years of disappointment will do that.
Jack Scofield
Member
I still can't believe how much nothing Dany has amounted to so far. How naive I was while reading the first book thinking that she was actually going to land in Westeros by the end of the book.
Yeah. And Daenerys is not the only one. I generally have the feeling that the story—after five books—has just started, lol. Knowing nothing else, I would expect more than just two more books.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I unfortunately have to agree. It's depressing as hell. ASoIaF is my favourite book series and I love the world-building the best out of all fantasy worlds too. I clung to hope for so long, thinking that Winds would come out sooner since the Meereeneese knot is over etc. but it turns out it was really just an excuse and he's just really that slow.
Plus his staunch refusal to have someone else finish in his stead... sigh, I get why he's so protective of his work, really, I do, but as a fan who wants to see the end of the story (and not the HBO fanfic version abomination), it's really frustrating to think about. Surely someone he trusts, someone who's a good writer, like Daniel Abraham, could take the helm.
Of course we wouldn't need to talk about that if he just finished writing in reasonable amounts of time. xD
Yup. I read the first three books in 2000. Waited 5 years for AFFC, which had neither Tyrion or Daenerys and I was looking forward to their arcs the most. Then finally 6 more years later I read about them and their arcs dragged on so badly, they were the least enjoyable chapters for me, whereas Theon and Davos of all people were more interesting and they were my least favourite POVs in ACoK (go figure), not to mention their frustrating lack of momentum at the end (Tyrion doesn't even meet Dany which I had been hoping for for so long, Dany doesn't even begin to return to Westeros, etc.).
When I read the first book and found out that there were three more I thought the plot would go absolutely crazy, so much shit would happen and everyone would die twice.
This happens with pretty much all big media though.
I wonder how much GRRM has told HBO about the ending. Probably not that much, given that the producers of the show are thinking about a reduced number of episodes for the final season. Does not sound like the information he gave them would force them to cover a lot.
Jack Scofield
Member
Also, I firmly believe that fleshing out the rest of the world has lessened the importance of the White Walkers and the fear of winter. In the first few books, Westeros basically WAS the entire world for the readers. But learning about Essos, the far East, and the south, Westeros just looks like a quaint little island in comparison. I mean, does winter even have an effect on Essos? No one there seems concerned about it at all.
It would be like if the Lord of the Rings showed how the "known world" was actually just a tiny island and whatever happened there had no effect on anything outside of it.
It would be like if the Lord of the Rings showed how the "known world" was actually just a tiny island and whatever happened there had no effect on anything outside of it.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Hadn't Sauron basically conquered every other part of the world except Middle Earth?
Think Maybe GRRM should have done something similar (or at least have Essos be a far more hostile place) to heighten the impact of the White Walker invasion.
Roland_Gunner
Member
Wanting the story I've spent around $150 on to actually have a resolution is entitlement. Good to know.
I've never known a fandom to be so pessimistic. C'mon guys it's surely coming out this year; get hype!
I told a friend who only watches the show that Season 4 material was written in the year 2000. Season 6 is all new material because the author hasn't written even that far yet. And then she just laughed and laughed.
All pessimism and complaining is well deserved.
3 Sansa chapters and 3 Bran chapters since the year 2000. Maybe 4 Arya chapters since the year 2000.
Archaeopteryx
Member
Essos is probably in danger from the Others, they have legends of the Long Night as well. It's speculated the Grey Waste is connected to the Lands of Always Winter, and the Five Forts serve as a similar protection as the Wall. Remember the legends of Azor Ahai originate from there as well.
Dash_Riprock
Member
At least he didn't post a link to that piss awful Neil Gaiman article.
I wonder if it is even possible to end the story without messing up the pacing. As you said, the Walkers have had relatively little prominence so far, and yet the battle between "Ice and Fire" is supposed to be the core theme. It really looks like GRRM has spend too much space on everything else, and now everything else is overshadowing the actual story and sabotaging the originally intended curve of suspense. As I said, if I did not know that the story is supposed to end after two more books, I would expect more than that. Too much stuff is still going on and the main story still seems to be at an early stage.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
But we see Essos, and the far east, and slavers bay all within the first three books, and hear plenty more about it, too.
It might get more fleshed out in Dance, but those elements were always there, and were a core part of Dany's journey. Not to mention that the legend of Azor Ahai, which is heavily tied into the story of the Others and the war for Dawn, is a legend originally from the east, and is tied up in a religion that is primarily dominant in that part of the world.
I think the east has always had a key role to play in this plot, between Dany's journey and the birth of her dragons, the Lord of Light in general, Melissandre, Qaithe, and more. I wouldn't be surprised if we wind up seeing the effects of the Others return on Essos before Dany even returns to Westeros.
Incandenza
Banned
I'm fairly confident it will be finished by this time next year.
I am ready to be crushed.
I am ready to be crushed.
Jack Scofield
Member
Fair enough. It's been so long since I've read these books that I don't even remember most of this stuff (like the Five Forts). I'm also not heavily invested in the lore so I'm not sure if a lot of this is covered there.
Heck, I have to keep reminding myself that the White Walkers are a threat and the main enemy in the series. They've been almost entirely nonexistant up to this point, it's hard to believe that they could be a threat to the entire world.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That's a good point. Although:
That is also a good point. Although, what are the Five Forts? I can't remember what those are now... man I used to be such a nerd I could name a bunch of obscure Houses and their sigils but now my memory of the lore is fading. xD [Fake edit: oh, they are from the Lands/World of Ice and Fire, that's why -- I haven't explored all of that material yet]
Anyway, I still wonder about the Others and Essos and the South. We know that they seem to bring the cold with them, at least, so I guess if they keep moving south, towards Dorne, they could still do damage. But how are they going to cross into Essos? Or, hell, the Summer Isles or Sothoryos? Or can they freeze over the ocean?
Looking at the maps now, I also don't know how the Grey Waste could possibly connect to the Lands of Always Winter. What we need is a globe map, not a regular map.
Ah, it feels good to talk about the lore again...
That's because they haven't been mentioned in the main books yet. Only showing up on the Lands of Ice and Fire maps, and possibly mentioned in the World of Ice and Fire book.
Here is a nice scan of the world map which has some Essos details, look to the eastern most part:
Is there anyone that actually thinks this series will be done in seven books? There's just no way, right.
What a sad prediction. Is there really no chance of it coming this year?
What a sad prediction. Is there really no chance of it coming this year?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I found this blog post that analyses the stuff about the Five Forts and the Grey Waste... super interesting:
https://maidenvault.wordpress.com/obs-merlings/oily-black-stone-and-merlings-part-ii-seastone/
They think that the Grey Waste could host another tribe of Others, instead of being somehow directly connected to the Lands of Always Winter, and I think that's a better theory:
lol @ "Planetos", I guess it's the fan monicker for the entire world of ASoIaF?
Man, I want to learn more about this stuff so bad...
https://maidenvault.wordpress.com/obs-merlings/oily-black-stone-and-merlings-part-ii-seastone/
They think that the Grey Waste could host another tribe of Others, instead of being somehow directly connected to the Lands of Always Winter, and I think that's a better theory:
lol @ "Planetos", I guess it's the fan monicker for the entire world of ASoIaF?
Man, I want to learn more about this stuff so bad...
Which article is this?
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Yeah, 8 books is pretty much a certainty in my eyes. Maybe more.
I think we can see the book this year. While Martin's update in January was certainly not the update people were hoping for, he certainly didn't shut the door on it, but only on it coming out before the season started. He said he had "months left", but that was months ago. And apparently a March release would have been possible if he had finished the book by New Years Eve. So we can see the book turned around and released in under three months from the publishing side.
I feel like there's a decent chance he can finish by August.