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[adamsapple]

I'm saying some facts would be nice for the historians and those other fanboys trying to push that angle but you're too caught up in wars to understand that.

I like that you say that I'm caught up in the wars while accusing only the 'fanboys on the other side' talking about Concord's $400m loss.

Facts would be nice, you should contact Sony to reveal them officially. Hell, we don't even know what price Firewalk were acquired for, unlike say Insomnaic, where the figure was revealed publicly very quickly.

Until we have the 'facts' as they would satisfy you, we only have things like Colin's unnamed source who worked on the game or Kotaku's separate reporting from their own source(s) about the game's budgets.

Leave Sony Alooooooone!

Shush you fanboy from the other side, you.

 

[Bernardougf]

I like that you say that I'm caught up in the wars while accusing only the 'fanboys on the other side' talking about Concord's $400m loss.

Facts would be nice, you should contact Sony to reveal them officially. Hell, we don't even know what price Firewalk were acquired for, unlike say Insomnaic, where the figure was revealed publicly very quickly.

Until we have the 'facts' as they would satisfy you, we only have things like Colin's unnamed source who worked on the game or Kotaku's separate reporting from their own source(s) about the game's budgets.



Shush you fanboy from the other side, you.

 

[Three]

I like that you say that I'm caught up in the wars while accusing only the 'fanboys on the other side' talking about Concord's $400m loss.

Facts would be nice, you should contact Sony to reveal them officially. Hell, we don't even know what price Firewalk were acquired for, unlike say Insomnaic, where the figure was revealed publicly very quickly.

Until we have the 'facts' as they would satisfy you, we only have things like Colin's unnamed source who worked on the game or Kotaku's separate reporting from their own source(s) about the game's budgets.



Shush you fanboy from the other side, you.

Um what no, I said the threads existence is due to Men In boxes being a GaaS fanboy, I said outside of it the people who bring up concord are usually those gloating at its failure not those defending it. You've had a tough week warring I know. I'll let you be.

 

[adamsapple]

 

[KimDongHwan]

The most popular games on PlayStation are GaaS.

Yep that's why I said "core audience". Those people that promote your console, the ones that were cheering on E3 announcements, the ones that went nuts when The Last Guardian was re-introduced, or the first trailer of Uncharted 2, or the FFVII Remake announcement etc, they are not the majority but they are the loyals that will be there once trends go down

 

[wipeout364]

It has to be over 200 million when you take into account Sony dissolved Firewalk. I actually think it was insane that they shut the studio down.

I don’t think anyone thought concord was poorly programmed or badly designed. It had some Derivative elements but from all the videos I watched it played as a solid game.

Concord had two major issues the art and narrative direction and the ridiculous decision to charge upfront for the game when it should have been Free to play. The first issue is the reason I was not interested in the game and could not be bothered to download the demo.

 

[Roufianos]

Adam Boyes is in a position to refute this? Big fatty hasn't worked at Playstation for a long time.

 

[Sushi_Combo]

Until an official rep can come out and spill the beans, this is just all speculative.
Adam hasn't been at Sony for a while I think.

 

[Kotaro]

does it really matter now? the fact that Sony nuked it to another dimension, the game and the studio, tells you it's failure of biblical proportion. And the person in charge of it all, Herman Hultz, got demoted from CEO position in less than a year

 

[poppabk]

How to spot the charlatans

What?
No-one thinks they spent nothing on Concord for years and then charged a one off $400 million the day it released.
In that $4 billion gap between sales and operating income there is a lot of room for $50 - $100 million a year on Concord.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Sony has a responsibility to tell us how much shit they ate.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Don't be silly. Even fanboys know it was a huge failure of a game. Bizarrely it's fanboys on the other side who care and constantly bring up concord. The $400M is their way of making it "the biggest failure ever, lol". Reality is that it didn't even show in PS' financials and they had a 12% growth that quarter. Not that how much they lost or their growth should be of any concern to most anyway but if people are going to be using those talking points for their fanboy fodder at least getting some actual facts about it would be nice.

those are completely unrelated points...

obviously I don't have any of the details on cost, but:

a) the costs are incurred over a number of years
b) assuming those are internal costs and not contractors, they would simply be accounted as part of labor costs, again over a number of years
c) was there a payment to buy the studio, if so i) how much it cost and ii) was it done in installments over a number of years?
d) the profit could have been that much higher on the books if they didn't have this mega flop to deal with


basically it's entirely normal that Sony had a good profit at the end of the quarter and for this game to have cost 400M for the years it was being worked on

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Whatever it cost, it was obviously a significant amount of money. It caused the closure of the studio, the cancellation of multiple other Sony GaaS projects, and the reorganization of management for the Japanese branch of Sony to retake control of the PlayStation division which they have been letting the Americans run ever since the PS3 debacle

What I'm saying is it might not have lost $400 million but it definitely lost a bunch

 

[Ristifer]

Anyone defending Concord is like this pathetic kid in school, trying to convince their parents that their failing grade was no big deal and it’s everyone else’s fault. Same energy.

No one gives a fuck if it’s $400m or $4m. It’s a colossal GaaS failure and that’s all there is to it.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

We don't need Sony or anyone else to tell us (Sony would lie anyways). We can make educated guesses out of the available data.

- Highly paid devs have been working on it for 8 years. (5 years full time). By the time Firewalk was shut down, they had over 160 employees.

- ProbablyMonsters, the real winner here, collected +200M for videogame development before Firewalk's acquisition. That was their only project. (2 others were canceled shortly after).

- Sony made an extra push after buying the studio, adding manpower, marketing, merchandising, etc.

- Bend Studio's GaaS has been reported to cost over 250M (!!!!), being in the same location and with a lesser headcount than Firewalk, and working for a similar period of time.

So, if we put all this in the blender, the result is around 300-400M. It's impossible this flop cost "only" 150-200M. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up near half billion.

 

[Three]

those are completely unrelated points...

obviously I don't have any of the details on cost, but:

a) the costs are incurred over a number of years
b) assuming those are internal costs and not contractors, they would simply be accounted as part of labor costs, again over a number of years
c) was there a payment to buy the studio, if so i) how much it cost and ii) was it done in installments over a number of years?
d) the profit could have been that much higher on the books if they didn't have this mega flop to deal with


basically it's entirely normal that Sony had a good profit at the end of the quarter and for this game to have cost 400M for the years it was being worked on

clearly theyre not contradictory but you're getting the opinion of somebody who dealt with such budgets telling you not all the numbers you read online are real. it's somebody with first hand experience in product managment for that company. We do not have real numbers and again trying to show it in Sonys/PS financials turns up nothing but a profit. Sometimes you get a loss and its attributed to an acquisition or product but again nothing showed up in the earnings is the point.

 

[Three]

We don't need Sony or anyone else to tell us (Sony would lie anyways). We can make educated guesses out of the available data.

- Highly paid devs have been working on it for 8 years. (5 years full time). By the time Firewalk was shut down, they had over 160 employees.

- ProbablyMonsters, the real winner here, collected +200M for videogame development before Firewalk's acquisition. That was their only project. (2 others were canceled shortly after).

- Sony made an extra push after buying the studio, adding manpower, marketing, merchandising, etc.

- Bend Studio's GaaS has been reported to cost over 250M (!!!!), being in the same location and with a lesser headcount than Firewalk, and working for a similar period of time.

So, if we put all this in the blender, the result is around 300-400M. It's impossible this flop cost "only" 150-200M. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up near half billion.

Sony acquired Firewalk in 2023. They wouldn't have been paying employees for 8 years. Firewalk were founded in 2018 so 8 years wouldn't even make sense anyway no matter the hype people were trying to build prior.

 

[poppabk]

clearly theyre not contradictory but you're getting the opinion of somebody who dealt with such budgets telling you not all the numbers you read online are real. it's somebody with first hand experience in product managment for that company. We do not have real numbers and again trying to show it in Sonys/PS financials turns up nothing but a profit. Sometimes you get a loss and its attributed to an acquisition or product but again nothing showed up in the earnings is the point.

Nothing showed up in the earnings for all the other cancelled GaaS projects either including stuff like the Last of Us online which for sure must have burned a fair bit of money.
That's the point - successes can show up because that money is realized rapidly, failures just slowly drain money over years.

 

[Three]

Nothing showed up in the earnings for all the other cancelled GaaS projects either including stuff like the Last of Us online which for sure must have burned a fair bit of money.
That's the point - successes can show up because that money is realized rapidly, failures just slowly drain money over years.

those don't show because you have had those operating costs for years as that studio has existed for years as part of their expenses. Taking on new operating costs though through 100+ more employees would show. Especially if that studio had nothing to profit from in the meantime like ND has with TLOU and remasters.

 

[diffusionx]

clearly theyre not contradictory but you're getting the opinion of somebody who dealt with such budgets telling you not all the numbers you read online are real. it's somebody with first hand experience in product managment for that company. We do not have real numbers and again trying to show it in Sonys/PS financials turns up nothing but a profit. Sometimes you get a loss and its attributed to an acquisition or product but again nothing showed up in the earnings is the point.

Well, the money was already spent. Sometimes you will see a company attribute a weak quarter to a specific game, but companies don't go line by line in earning calls to talk about specific games normally, unless they have to. Like WB had to talk about Suicide Squad and how it tanked their finances. But Sony is not WB (thankfully).

And it needs to be said again, Boyes left Sony in 2016. Sony is a totally different company now, game budgets at these companies are totally different. A high-end game that he likely would have been significantly involved with was like, The Order 1886. Well Sony is now dropping $300M+ on Spiderman. It's a huge difference.

Sony acquired Firewalk in 2023. They wouldn't have been paying employees for 8 years. Firewalk were founded in 2018 so 8 years wouldn't even make sense anyway no matter the hype people were trying to build prior.

I don't know how Sony valued Firewalk, but the company who owned them likely did not let them go without getting a return on what they paid to make the game, and probably at a significant premium if Sony felt strongly about Concord which they seemed to. So Sony did end up implicitly paying those employees. So if Sony says they are going to be spending $5B on live service shit (I don't remember the exact number), well Concord's spend is part of that, Firewalk acquisition, everything.

The one thing we know for sure is that Sony talked about how they were significantly ramping up live service spending, and tossed out a huge number as part of that, and it was part of the leak IIRC, and Concord was part of that significant ramp up (as was God of War live, and Factions 2, and all the other failed shit).

 

[Three]

I don't know how Sony valued Firewalk, but the company who owned them likely did not let them go without getting a return on what they paid to make the game

This is the biggest unknown and likely where any meaningful cost came from.

 

[diffusionx]

This is the biggest unknown and likely where any meaningful cost came from.

Which is why I always say whether or not the rumored spend is true (we just don't know), but if it is plausible

We do know that at the same time Sony was getting Concord they bought Bungie with a price that even at the time everyone was saying was a ludicrous overpay, and has looked worse as time has gone on. Sony was on a live service spending spree that has pretty much just been a waste. It wouldn’t be the first time a company lost its mind and did this.

 

[rm082e]

I listen to Jeff's podcast every week. I was excited to see Adam on because he's had some interesting moments back in the Giant Bomb days.

But listening to this episode, it was a bummer. He explains he's started a new consulting company and his target customers are the large publicly traded companies who are making games. He says he's basically trying to help them figure out how they can make money sustainably without exploiting their customers through all the shitty practices they've gotten into.

While that sounds great, my first though hearing this is that he's going to softball and kid-gloves every question Jeff had about what's going on with big publishers and why the business is in such a crazy state right now. He then proceeded to do exactly that. In a few spots, his comments were frankly disingenuous.

 

[adamsapple]

Which is why I always say whether or not the rumored spend is true (we just don't know), but if it is plausible

We do know that at the same time Sony was getting Concord they bought Bungie with a price that even at the time everyone was saying was a ludicrous overpay, and has looked worse as time has gone on. Sony was on a live service spending spree that has pretty much just been a waste. It wouldn’t be the first time a company lost its mind and did this.

And make of it as what you will, but Bellevue WA, where Firewalk were based, is one of the most expensive places in the US. 60% more than the US average.

 

[diffusionx]

I listen to Jeff's podcast every week. I was excited to see Adam on because he's had some interesting moments back in the Giant Bomb days.

But listening to this episode, it was a bummer. He explains he's started a new consulting company and his target customers are the large publicly traded companies who are making games. He says he's basically trying to help them figure out how they can make money sustainably without exploiting their customers through all the shitty practices they've gotten into.

While that sounds great, my first though hearing this is that he's going to softball and kid-gloves every question Jeff had about what's going on with big publishers and why the business is in such a crazy state right now. He then proceeded to do exactly that. In a few spots, his comments were frankly disingenuous.

That’s the world of consulting, you have to convince a client that they’re simultaneously in trouble and not being run well but also being run well enough to hire you. Heck if I was him and trying to get Sony as a client I would probably say what he did even if I knew the numbers were actually totally 100% accurate.

And make of it as what you will, but Bellevue WA, where Firewalk were based, is one of the most expensive places in the US. 60% more than the US average.

And the game was being developed when costs were going up a lot.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Tell that to ya boy Men_in_Boxes who made this topic completely unprompted. He doesn't want people to forget about gaming's hindenburg.

Wouldn't I want people to forget about the Live Service Hindenburg?

Again, this isn't about Concord. It's about catching Colin Moriarty and throwing him in the vat of sludge alongside Tidux and Colt Eastwood.

The people are uniting against the charlatans. Rejoice!

 

[EN250]

Colin Moriarty needed to be brought to justice. Lock him up, fellas...

Why, cause he talked shit about your GAAS games you keep shilling about and time and time again keep flopping hard?

You should get your wins when you get them man and stop being so resentful about the rest that keeps telling you how shit GAAS really are

I read coomers are all over Marvel Rivals because them female characters got some ass they can fap too, peak gaming moment right there, amiright?

 

[SHAKEZ]

A few less millions on an absolute failure, now that's a difference, reopen the studio!

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Why, cause he talked shit about your GAAS games you keep shilling about and time and time again keep flopping hard?

You should get your wins when you get them man and stop being so resentful about the rest that keeps telling you how shit GAAS really are

I read coomers are all over Marvel Rivals because them female characters got some ass they can fap too, peak gaming moment right there, amiright?

Responding to this is beneath me.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

clearly theyre not contradictory but you're getting the opinion of somebody who dealt with such budgets telling you not all the numbers you read online are real. it's somebody with first hand experience in product managment for that company. We do not have real numbers and again trying to show it in Sonys/PS financials turns up nothing but a profit. Sometimes you get a loss and its attributed to an acquisition or product but again nothing showed up in the earnings is the point.

Adam didn't refer at all to this figure, it was the most banal of comments he made in that video. Obviously he doesn't know either, so even if he did comment, he would be speculating as much as anyone else. The main point is, the entire base of this thread is pure retardium, as the guy doesn't actually deny and barely even comments on the topic.

Furthermore, he's been out of Sony for almost 10 years, costs have definitely gone up in the meantime, especially during the time this team was acquired.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Well, the money was already spent. Sometimes you will see a company attribute a weak quarter to a specific game, but companies don't go line by line in earning calls to talk about specific games normally, unless they have to. Like WB had to talk about Suicide Squad and how it tanked their finances. But Sony is not WB (thankfully).

And it needs to be said again, Boyes left Sony in 2016. Sony is a totally different company now, game budgets at these companies are totally different. A high-end game that he likely would have been significantly involved with was like, The Order 1886. Well Sony is now dropping $300M+ on Spiderman. It's a huge difference.


I don't know how Sony valued Firewalk, but the company who owned them likely did not let them go without getting a return on what they paid to make the game, and probably at a significant premium if Sony felt strongly about Concord which they seemed to. So Sony did end up implicitly paying those employees. So if Sony says they are going to be spending $5B on live service shit (I don't remember the exact number), well Concord's spend is part of that, Firewalk acquisition, everything.

The one thing we know for sure is that Sony talked about how they were significantly ramping up live service spending, and tossed out a huge number as part of that, and it was part of the leak IIRC, and Concord was part of that significant ramp up (as was God of War live, and Factions 2, and all the other failed shit).

yeah pretty much this right here

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

I genuinely hope whoever designed those characters have been put in jail

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Wouldn't I want people to forget about the Live Service Hindenburg?

Again, this isn't about Concord. It's about catching Colin Moriarty and throwing him in the vat of sludge alongside Tidux and Colt Eastwood.

The people are uniting against the charlatans. Rejoice!

man, you're so fucking off base I'm not sure it's trolling or borderline retardation... Adam didn't address any particular claim and most important of all, how the fuck would he know?
come on, do better...

 

[adamsapple]

The people are uniting against the charlatans. Rejoice!

To be fair, you were united against Collin's estimate from day 1. This is nothing new in that regard and I don't think this topic has swayed any/many people.

There's no way Boyes would even know the actual figures, he hasn't been at Sony for just about a decade now. His knowledge would be just the same as whoever Collin contacted, that supposedly worked on the game.

 

[Three]

Adam didn't refer at all to this figure, it was the most banal of comments he made in that video. Obviously he doesn't know either, so even if he did comment, he would be speculating as much as anyone else. The main point is, the entire base of this thread is pure retardium, as the guy doesn't actually deny and barely even comments on the topic.

Furthermore, he's been out of Sony for almost 10 years, costs have definitely gone up in the meantime, especially during the time this team was acquired.

He was talking about Concord I'm not sure what other number he was referring to to be honest.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

To be fair, you were united against Collin's estimate from day 1. This is nothing new in that regard and I don't think this topic has swayed any/many people.

There's no way Boyes would even know the actual figures, he hasn't been at Sony for just about a decade now. His knowledge would be just the same as whoever Collin contacted, that supposedly worked on the game.

Boyes strikes me as very connected in the industry and much more knowledgable about game budgets in general.

He also doesn't benefit from misleading people the way Colin does.

 

[TropicanaTwista]

Somebody fed colin bullshit before. In truth, bluepoint have been working on a live service god of war game that's now been cancelled!

“They’re re-releasing Bloodborne on PS5, as I understand it,” Moriarty said of Bluepoint’s current efforts. “But we’re going to get a sequel to Bloodborne as I have heard out of them after that.”

Bloodborne 2 Rumored to Be in Development for PS5

After releasing all the way back in 2015, it sounds as though PlayStation may finally be looking to bring about a full-blown sequel to the beloved action title Bloodborne. While many longtime fans of the FromSoftware-developed project have simply been hoping for a remake or remaster of the game...

comicbook.com

I'm familiar with that too. So over nearly 20 years of being in this industry he's been wrong (btw, not even sure if it's fair to call him wrong for this yet. I don't believe it but ya never know).

Idk, just seems lame. Feel like you can go to pretty much any reputable source in any field and they'll be wrong if they are there long enough on certain topics or stories. They're human.