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[Joe Lee]

The book made me cry. Did not know books had that power.

Yeah it's pretty powerful stuff so far. I'll probably pick up The Kite Runner once this semester ends and I actually have time to read it, haha.

 

[Winterfang]

From what I read in the topic it seems like the USA had the best intentions with the worse possible outcome.

 

[tino]

Worse than Spain or Germany? doubt it.

What wrong did USA did the Germany/West Germany? Educate me.

 

[Winterfang]

What wrong did USA did the Germany/West Germany? Educate me.

I think he meant what the germany/Spain did to the Caribbean.

 

[Violet_0]

well, they fucked up Central and South America, which is good enough

 

[Mgoblue201]

Why are people blaming Russia for this? US was the one who backed the Taliban and Bin Laden's Mujahideen when the Soviets backed PDPA during the Afghan War. When Soviets backed out and PDPA crumbled because of that, Taliban took the power, since there was a huge power vacuum in Afghanistan after PDPA fell, resulting in today's state of Afghanistan.

US was willing to back anyone regardless if they are extremists when it was all about killing red commies back then.

The Taliban didn't exist until the mid-1990s and, I believe, was never supported by the US directly. It's true that the US backed the Mujahideen during the war, but there is a long chain of events between US support of the Mujahideen and the eventual Taliban takeover. If anyone supported the Taliban, it was actually Pakistan, who used the Islamist regime to bolster their power in the region. As for Russia, there is certainly a question of whether they should have gotten involved with Afghanistan in the first place. The Mujahideen may have been supported by the US, after all, but they were born out of opposition to the Soviet-backed government.

 

[Canuck76]

Pretty crazy. There's a picture somewhere of Kabul university in the early 70's and the grass is green and there's young women from all different countries and all sorts of people.

Then there's a picture of it today abandoned and way crappier.

Really hope and pray they can have peace there after we leave.

As far as the U.S contributing to Osama Bin Laden as i've seen earlier that's untrue. During the Russian/Afghistan war their were two pipelines for support for the rebels one mainly from America/Nato and the other from Saudi Arabia. Osama was purely sponsored by Saudi Arabia while the U.S usually were funneling money,weapons and expertise to democratically oriented leaders. I read this in a book a while back i'll look for the title but look into the issue more if your interested.

 

[ginger ninja]

Soviets are the ones who helped build the country up and provided them with billions in aid beginning as early as the 1920s. After Afghanistan had their revolution in 78 they were pro-poor and had a socialistic agenda and continued to be very friendly with Russia. America couldn't stand for this even if it was what their people wanted, so Jimmy Carter signed a covert directive and started funding a terrorist organization that included Osama Bin Laden as one of its leaders with billions in training and weapons. Russia was reluctant to send in troops, but had signed a treaty with Afghanistan in 78 that promised military support, so after repeated requests by the Afghans they finally did and the country has been in turmoil ever since.

Yea, No...Osama didn't even came to afghanistan until after the occupation started and CIA never directly funded osama, he was their on his own like half of the other international jihadists...the idea of the russians being forced and pushed into invading afghanistan is downright laughable

 

[amrihua]

The soviets/afghanistan's communist government were partly responsible for Afghanistan's modernization to begin with (albeit with repressive attachments). Blame the US for Afghanistan's eventual descent into religious fundamentalism.

At the time the US thought religious fundamentalists are better than godless communists. Didn't turn out to be that way.

 

[ginger ninja]

also, people need to understand the situation in Afghanistan and this whole particular region is a lot more complex and is not outcome of things in particular like Foreign invasions.

Was soviet invasion the thing that fucked the country for years to come ? jury is still out on that one, but one thing is for sure though..The invasion and the US response of promoting global jihad did made the world the fucked up place it is today.

The story of iran is the story repeated throughout history, better yet conveyed in this quote:
"Be careful when fighting monsters, lest you become one"

In taking down a monster people become the very caricature they set out to destroy, many times it has happened before in revolutions through the history of this world. So people should not just consider it as omg them religionz sending as back to stone age but rather a more collective approach.

 

[ginger ninja]

I'll buy you a ticket so you can see how wrong it looks in real life too.

I don't really get the hate about this...having been there personally, believe me when i say this that it actually feels magnificent and fitting beside the kabbah..Arabs gonna arab, they have the monies and they gonna show it off anyways. i hate the sauds with a passion but seriously, you don't see any whole sale discrimination inside haram rather the opposite, its multiculturalism of the next level(although borne out of necessity) All people walk and pray like equals, even outside on the streets..the rich poor divide isn't that noticeable. The kind of city it is with the temperature and geology, believe me tall building is what it fucking needs. Al sauds may be the spawn of evil but i do think their work in the expansion and care of the holy mosques needs to be appreciated...it's FAR from perfect though

And get this, i don't know how it is now but last year i was in medina and damn, they really gave them shia brothers some freedom of movement and practice i wasn't anticipating...the city is always more prone to sectarian tension because of the schism between two sides over jannut-ul-baqi and the graves of the companions of the prophet but i was generally to see the amount of people from Iran their, i wasn't expecting this kind of fair treatment from saudis.

Although it may look like it, kindly don't confuse me for an apologist..Just sharing what i saw for others, heck personally i don't even practice islam that much anymore

 

[leroidys]

But it was a huge involvement from the US, not just with weapons, which led to the rise of the Taliban. There were shoolbooks printed for afghan children just to invoke the idea of the Jihad as an actual way of war to mobilize afghans against the soviets. Then after the Mujahedin were armed, the country was left behind and they took over.
I think it is important to know these things.

Looks like you had trouble reading my post. Let me help you:

OK, I'll place the bulk of the blame on the US, but you guys are letting the Soviet Union off way too easily.

Was the crushing of the Hungarian revolution and Prague Spring legitimate just because those countries collapsing governments asked for help from the Soviet Union?

 

[Soyongdori]

The Taliban didn't exist until the mid-1990s and, I believe, was never supported by the US directly. It's true that the US backed the Mujahideen during the war, but there is a long chain of events between US support of the Mujahideen and the eventual Taliban takeover. If anyone supported the Taliban, it was actually Pakistan, who used the Islamist regime to bolster their power in the region. As for Russia, there is certainly a question of whether they should have gotten involved with Afghanistan in the first place. The Mujahideen may have been supported by the US, after all, but they were born out of opposition to the Soviet-backed government.

This is where you are wrong. Taliban existed since the beginning of Soviet involvement in Afghan War. They were backing Mujahideen as a bunch of political group and number of known Mujahideens including Bin Laden's MAK, which later became part of Al-Queda. They assumed control years after the power vacuum in Afghanistan when no stable government would successfully control the country.

And actually, Mujahideen were fighting the government prior to PDPA, even before the Saur Revolution after PDPA chased Republic of Afghanistan out of power. Mujahideen, of course hated the government of PDPA as well. The Mujahideen are basically bunch of mixed Arab and people from around Hindu-Kush muslims fighting for the rights of Islam and want to establish a muslim fundamentalism within Afghanistan. Their whole goal is to chase the foreigners out and establish predominant Muslim controlled country. Mujahideens were everywhere even in countries like Bosnia during the Bosnian War to do the very same thing they were trying to do in Afghanistan.

 

[ginger ninja]

Let me help you out their buddy:

During the power vacuum created by the Soviet troop withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989, the country was torn apart by warring mujahideen groups and the ISI of Pakistan grasped the chance to wield power in the region by fostering a previously unknown Kandahari student movement.[1] They continued to support the Taliban, as Pakistani allies, in their push to conquer Afghanistan in the 1990s.[2]
Taliban initially enjoyed enormous good will from Afghans weary of the corruption, brutality, and the incessant fighting of Mujahideen warlords.[3] One story is that the rape and murder of boys and girls from a family traveling to Kandahar or a similar outrage by Mujahideen bandits sparked Mohammed Omar (Mullah Omar) and his students to vow to rid Afghanistan of these criminals.

This one story has been retold many times in many publications that in the begining taliban were just seminary students, the first action being revenge against a warlord who kidnapped or raped a women(something similar)

Fact is, taliban rose to power at the time when US just stopped giving a fuck about the whole country after providing billions in weapon and helping ISI(and arab governments) to create this global army of jihadists..Taliban specifically rose because of the chaos of civil war and regional power play..In fact, many foreign jihadists including OBL left Afghanistan when the civil war started because they considered it an unworthy cause i.e muslims fighting muslims

So no, you can blame US involvement for a lot of things, but not the rise of taliban..however their neglect pave way did for the civil war and regional proxy circus


edit: to the person above, i think you need to make this distinction..Taliban =/= mujaheddin, taliban specifically are made up of mostly pashtun ethnic people from the areas of afghanistan bordering pakistan...The rise to power is related to factors like Pakistani support, ISA involvement and even some general realization in the afghan fighters(not arabs or internationals)that enough is enough and they need to get their shit together

 

[Soyongdori]

edit: to the person above, i think you need to make this distinction..Taliban =/= mujaheddin, taliban specifically are made up of mainly pashtun ethnic people from the areas of afghanistan bordering pakistan..

I think you need to re-read what I posted, because I never said those two are the same.

I said Mujas are bunch of Muslim people from different countries and background, prominently Pakistani-origin and Arabs during Afghan War.

 

[ginger ninja]

This is where you are wrong. Taliban existed since the beginning of Soviet involvement in Afghan War.

i was replying to this..which makes no sense at all

 

[Soyongdori]

i was replying to this..which makes no sense at all

Their activity traces back to 1979 even before Saur Revolution.

 

[windowlurker]

Pretty sure there was a thread a couple of weeks ago on this.. but it never gets old. Amazing photographs.

Read that as "photoshops" and got a chuckle out of it.

 

[ginger ninja]

No bro, the group Taliban as we see today is quite different from the mujaheddin that fought the war. One was fighting against occupation while the other(intially at least) against chaos. Most of the foot soliders grew up in refugee camps in Pakistan living under terrible overall conditions and studying in religious seminaries. The word taliban comes from talib, which means student:

Following the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989 and the collapse of Najibullah's Soviet-backed regime in 1992, the country fell into chaos as various mujahideen factions fought for control. Omar returned to Singesar and founded a madrassah.[25] According to one legend, in 1994, he had a dream in which a woman told him: "We need your help; you must rise. You must end the chaos. Allah will help you."[25] Mullah Omar started his movement with less than 50 armed madrassah students, known simply as the Taliban (Students). His recruits came from sand madrassahs in Afghanistan and from the Afghan refugee camps across the border in Pakistan. They fought against the rampant corruption that had emerged in the civil war period and were initially welcomed by Afghans weary of warlord rule. Reportedly, in early 1994, Omar led 30 men armed with 16 rifles to free youths who had been kidnapped and raped by a warlord, hanging the local commander from a tank gun barrel. The youths were two young girls. His movement gained momentum through the year, and he quickly gathered recruits from Islamic schools. By November 1994, Omar's movement managed to capture the whole of the Kandahar Province and then captured Herat in September 1995.[26]

 

[Fusion Pizza]

This thread reminded me of an article I read about a town called Lashkar Gar in Helmand province in the 60's

Eight years ago, a 72-year-old American aid worker named Charles Grader told me a seemingly fantastical story. In a bleak stretch of Afghan desert that resembled the surface of Mars, several dozen families from states like Montana, Wisconsin and California had lived in suburban tract homes with backyard barbecues. For 30 years during the Cold War, the settlement served as the headquarters of a massive American project designed to wean Afghans from Soviet influence.

American engineers oversaw the largest development program in Afghanistan’s history, constructing two huge earthen dams, 300 miles of irrigation canals and 1,200 miles of gravel roads. All told, the project made 250,000 acres of desert bloom. The town, officially known as “Lashkar Gah,” was the new capital of Helmand province and an ultra-modern world of workshops and offices. Afghans called it “Little America.”

Foreign Policy Photos

Reuters Article

Interesting read.

 

[Smellycat]

.

fascinating........

 

[dripdripsplash]

*Sees Iran*

Nope. Not gonna believe it.

You do know that there was an Islamic state from the year 632 to 1924, regarded as the first wellfare-state in the world and also as the "Golden Era" of not only Islam as a religion but also the whole Middle-East region ?

Iran is only an Islamic state on paper.