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Alan Wake 2 reportedly runs at 840p 60 FPs on the PS5 Pro; Remedy responds, no confirmation, more details coming
Midn1ght
Member
Thanks for the answer. Had a similar experience here in Belgium in the 90'. I was 10 and would spend the summer camping in the Ardennes with my family next to a river. We used to play in the river with my friends, building small dam with rocks. One day my friend picked up an old rusty grenade with the safety pin still on. We had the police and a military bomb squad on location within 15 minutes. Good time
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DrDryRub
Banned
If the game runs smoother that's all I care about but I'm not playing it so I really don't care. I'm not replaying the same games again to experience "60" fps mode or to have a slightly sharper image. Give me some new stuff. There's too many games to play to even think about replaying any of these pro enhanced games
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Give it a rest already lol.
The Direct is now out, they cover how it was easy to pixel count in the AW segment.
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Dorfdad
Gold Member
So wish armchair engineers would just stop yapping. So many people putting misinformation and their assumptions out as facts. You don’t know how this was designed or what it’s actually capable of. There are going to be some massive improvements and some meh implementation of this technology. It’s all going to come down to tools and experience.
I’m personally wanting pssr to get to the point where developers can design every game at 1080p with all the bells and whistles internal resolution and have pssr / dlss etc upscale to 4k. Hopefully PS6 will allow this.
I’m personally wanting pssr to get to the point where developers can design every game at 1080p with all the bells and whistles internal resolution and have pssr / dlss etc upscale to 4k. Hopefully PS6 will allow this.
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PaintTinJr
Member
You tell me, what's more likely?
Non-technical Wichard and Alex that can't develop and program their own ML AI upscaler because they don't understand the maths of the tech can accurately deconstruct and pixel count a new cutting edge spectral analysis ML AI technique ? Or they have a source? Or are guessing using a flawed methodology?
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think the fact of the matter is that if you are charging $700 for a pro console, you cannot afford to have even internal resolutions dip below 1080p. it's a matter of having standards. yes, 864p reconstructed to 1440p will look decent on a 4k screen but you have to do better than that on such an expensive console if you are trying to hit 60 fps with fidelity settings.
Fidelity modes in PS5 almost never drop below 1080p internal resolutions so why is this thing dropping below that? Fidelity modes also reconstruct to 4k. this will still reconstruct to 1440p then have tv upscale to 4k adding its own upscaling artifacts.
have some fucking standards. They shouldve never allowed resolutions of 720p or below on the PS5 and XSX. If you cant do 60 fps at at least 1080p, get fucked and skip the 60 fps mode. Same thing here. No one should be playing fidelity modes at 864p. I have been gaming on these RTX DLSS cards for the last 6 years now and i dont care what anyone says, games being upscaled from below 1080p settings look soft, blurry and cheap. they lose all their next gen shine. they still resolve jaggies and shimmering well, but thats no way to play a next gen game.
I can run cyberpunk PT at 60 fps using 1440p dlss performance, 720p internal resolution, but it simply doesnt look that great compared to 4k dlss performance at 30 fps. hell, even dlss performance isnt that great compared to dlss quality. i run most games at dlss quality now even if i have to settle for 30 or 40 fps on PC. thats how ordinary reconstructing from 1080p can look. 864p is like half the pixel count of 1080p.
PS5 gamers will see when they finally get their hands on the console and compare these modes to the native 4k or even 4k fsr quality modes to these new performance modes. The sharpness is gone. The crisp clear image is gone. that next gen sheen is gone. 1080p shouldve been the base.
Fidelity modes in PS5 almost never drop below 1080p internal resolutions so why is this thing dropping below that? Fidelity modes also reconstruct to 4k. this will still reconstruct to 1440p then have tv upscale to 4k adding its own upscaling artifacts.
have some fucking standards. They shouldve never allowed resolutions of 720p or below on the PS5 and XSX. If you cant do 60 fps at at least 1080p, get fucked and skip the 60 fps mode. Same thing here. No one should be playing fidelity modes at 864p. I have been gaming on these RTX DLSS cards for the last 6 years now and i dont care what anyone says, games being upscaled from below 1080p settings look soft, blurry and cheap. they lose all their next gen shine. they still resolve jaggies and shimmering well, but thats no way to play a next gen game.
I can run cyberpunk PT at 60 fps using 1440p dlss performance, 720p internal resolution, but it simply doesnt look that great compared to 4k dlss performance at 30 fps. hell, even dlss performance isnt that great compared to dlss quality. i run most games at dlss quality now even if i have to settle for 30 or 40 fps on PC. thats how ordinary reconstructing from 1080p can look. 864p is like half the pixel count of 1080p.
PS5 gamers will see when they finally get their hands on the console and compare these modes to the native 4k or even 4k fsr quality modes to these new performance modes. The sharpness is gone. The crisp clear image is gone. that next gen sheen is gone. 1080p shouldve been the base.
Dorfdad
Gold Member
Did you slip and hit your head on the toilet after a night of long drinking??
Zathalus
Member
That they pixel counted using the same methodology that have been using for years already. It’s worked for TAA, FSR, XeSS, DLSS, CB, and all other types of upscaling. Zero reason to doubt PSSR has some magical ability to prevent pixel counting. If the numbers were widely off base Sony or other developers would probably be first in line to correct them.
What the heck does the ability to develop their own ML AI upscaler got to do with anything? You don’t need to have a doctorate in machine learning in order to count pixels on a screen. I’m not a meteorologist, does that mean I can’t look outside and confirm that it’s raining?
Kvally
Member
No, I played Alan Wake 2 sober. Maybe I should play it drunk for it to be good? Good idea!
PaintTinJr
Member
If that was the case, then the ProRes file at 65GB to capture that detail using a variable rate decorder wouldn't have been needed at all. The file using VBR is averaging 110MB per second of footage. nearly 2MB per frame.
High quality stills on a camera aren't always bigger than 2MB, and unlike video a still can't save bandwidth by sharing repeated data between frames. That alone should tell you that IQ is far exceeding the implied quality by pixel counts.
Xaeroxcore666
Member
Resources on any corporation are finite. So if they focus more on releasing accesories, hardware upgrades and games like Concord, this is why we are still playing mostly PS4 games on our PS5 4 years after launch. PS5 hasnt delivered completely sofware sie what it´s supossed to be "next gen console" even today.
PaintTinJr
Member
It isn't a basic approach to ML AI. None of Sony's last 12 years of building Neural net upscalers for their TVs have been as rudimentary as DLSS/XeSS, why would PSSR?
The fact you don't see a problem with counting stairsteps on an ML AI image of unknown training and unknown upscaling algorithm - as far as DF are concerned - and are then just making a claim of a pixel count is most surprising, and still points to them having an actual dev source give them the number.
Zathalus
Member
Ah, ok DLSS is rudimentary now and Nvidia is obviously not nearly as advanced in machine learning vs Sony.
Do you not hear how ridiculous that sounds?
PSSR/DLSS/XeSS all behave in the exact same way. You can really pretend otherwise, but I’ve seen the PSSR footage myself and it’s quite obviously not some mythical ML upscaler that has no equal. You can watch the video yourself and see exactly how it look.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
This is another one of those akira_ situations where for your own sanity, I will suggest you stop replying to him.
Clearly he has his mind set in stone and nothing will change it. Regardless of year(s) of content of DF deciphering real internal resolutions from cases using DLSS etc.
sncvsrtoip
Member
Also whats the point of adding rt reflections to gt7 if pd had to drop from native 4k to pssr 1188p internal, game for sure will look worse than on basic ps5
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Concord... maybe... but you are somehow insinuating... or even believing, that them making PS Portal and PS5pro somehow is responsible for why their first-party studios haven't shown... or even finished the games they have been working on?
You still don't see the issue with this?
akira__
Banned
Do you have the same energy for videocards in that price range?
akira__
Banned
Ah yes, pixel counting upscaled images brilliant way to get the internal resolution./s
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PaintTinJr
Member
Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'behave'?
I'll elaborate on what I meant by 'rudimentary'. I'm referring to a solution that is largely depending on the quality of the training algorithm driven by obvious training strategies, say compared to the non-obvious stuff - which is a requirement to get a technique patented.
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Topher
Identifies as young
I'm watching the DF video and they are literally laughing at the tiny amount of footage they have to look at with Alan Wake 2.
They say the presumption is that the game is using PSSR simply because it was in the presentation.
Summarized by saying Remedy is "diverting GPU horsepower to more effects or quality of pixels if you like and then using PSSR to improve overall image quality".
So effects are being favored here at the cost of higher resolution.
They say the presumption is that the game is using PSSR simply because it was in the presentation.
Summarized by saying Remedy is "diverting GPU horsepower to more effects or quality of pixels if you like and then using PSSR to improve overall image quality".
So effects are being favored here at the cost of higher resolution.
REDRZA MWS
Member
700 dollars for this? Smh….. cmon Sony.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
How do you know this? Why say silly things like this?
sncvsrtoip
Member
df video analyze is now available and gt7 on pro with rt looks noticable lower res as I expected. To have 4k native quality you have to has internal res around 1440p (and pssr is not as good as dlss as in ratchet even from higher internal res it doesnt have quality of 4k native)
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I mean, DLSS does this very same thing. People cheer it on, but now they don't. Huh, funny that.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
thats insane. You couldve done that on the ps5 without pssr. the game already runs at native 4k 100 fps, why is it taking 3-4x of the GPU power to do some RT reflections especially on a 2-3x faster GPU in terms of ray tracing?
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PaintTinJr
Member
I've only played GT7 for a few hundred hours on PS5 on a ZD9 and I don't believe what you are saying for one second going by what was shown by Cerny in 3rd person car cam.
But then again most of what was shown by Cerny in regards of GT7 isn't how any capable player plays because the game at the top level challenges is hard enough to get bronze in track, bonnet or dash cam and gets stupidly difficult for gold awards with its moving percentile difficulty anyway, so car cam isn't even useful and the other camera modes provide better visuals, sense of speed and performance anyway, so will be a decent upgrade on the Pro, even though it already looks great on PS5.
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sncvsrtoip
Member
Many top level drivers use chase camera, only camera view that is not competetive is cockpit view. Gold awards are rather easy on all cameras
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PaintTinJr
Member
Really? Have you got a link to any official GT7 competitive footage that shows that? Really never would have expected the 'Real Racing Simulator' to be so poorly made that using chase cam was the way for top competitors.Many top level drivers use chase camera, only camera view that is not competetive is cockpit view. Gold awards are rather easy on all cameras
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Real racing simulator? I suppose you put that in quotation marks for a reason? I’ve always heard that GT is simcade and the realest simulator is iRacing.
sncvsrtoip
Member
For example Valerio Gallo, ex world and olympic champ. Chase cam is not only way (bumper cam is most popular), but you just see more than for example in cockpit view
PaintTinJr
Member
I was drawing attention to the extent of the false marketing, assuming his claim about chase camera is true.
Can't say I've seen any capable GT7 player in any Youtube video use chase cam, so am going to be really shocked when he proves his claim.
PaintTinJr
Member
A link of him using it competitively would be cool, then.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
All the pro tournaments and actual IMSA/F1 car drivers as well, use bumper cam. What is even this conversation?
akira__
Banned
He is confused with forza motorsport. Racing youtubers used chase game exclusively for forza. No other game though.
Super gt normally races hood cam. Yet for Forza... totally not paid content.
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Killer8
Member
The key point to consider about "840p" is that they are taking this number from very circumstantial moments. They have to actively hunt for a rogue edge to pixel count to come up with that number, either along some random part of the scene that isn't getting the effect of PSSR, or a raw image which is visible for a split-second before PSSR has time to get applied eg. a scene transition. You aren't going to notice that at all during normal gameplay.
The better judge of the visuals is how effectively PSSR can work it's magic for the final output. I'm only about halfway through DF's video about the Pro but it seems obvious that PSSR is already pretty mature and can create DLSS-like results. It far exceeds something like FSR2. It's also worth considering what the "840p" is being used for. Alex from DF seems convinced it's using improved ray-tracing in the 30fps mode and looks visibly higher resolution than the base PS5 in the 60fps performance mode. So, mission accomplished then.
It's also worth noting just how extremely demanding this game is on PC.
The better judge of the visuals is how effectively PSSR can work it's magic for the final output. I'm only about halfway through DF's video about the Pro but it seems obvious that PSSR is already pretty mature and can create DLSS-like results. It far exceeds something like FSR2. It's also worth considering what the "840p" is being used for. Alex from DF seems convinced it's using improved ray-tracing in the 30fps mode and looks visibly higher resolution than the base PS5 in the 60fps performance mode. So, mission accomplished then.
It's also worth noting just how extremely demanding this game is on PC.
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Caio
Member
Let’s skip the whole ‘fanboy’ thing —> just someone who has no idea what they’re talking about. And, by the way, I never said Xbox fanboy.
PaintTinJr
Member
I don't know? just feels like de ja vu from the old Next-Gen thread at the peak of 12 vs 8 TFs and waves of fud spreaders relentlessly downing PS5's future.
That poster just claimed GT7 on Pro will be worse visuals than on PS5 and then said that GT7 gold challenges are easy, and finished claiming the game's best drivers all use chase cam.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Ignore the derpy TikTok generation tards.
akira__
Banned
Just came by this post
Thread 'Digital Foundry to stop counting Pixels in 2022.' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digital-foundry-to-stop-counting-pixels-in-2022.1627523/
Thread 'Digital Foundry to stop counting Pixels in 2022.' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digital-foundry-to-stop-counting-pixels-in-2022.1627523/
Bojji
Member
DLSS can look from amazing -> crap depending on how low you get with internal resolution. Same is true with PSSR.
Mr Moose
Member
Zathalus
Member
Which they promptly ignored the very next comparison video. Because pixel counting is what the masses want.
sncvsrtoip
Member
His twitch for some reaason doesnt have any videos from his streams but he also has youtube channel, here he was streamin gt7 2022 nations cup test season
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akira__
Banned
Your right they are brilliant, by smugly explaining why it's technically stupid and then continue to do said stupid pixel counting. Because people asked them to, shows that they are real experts/s
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tommib
Gold Member
That is bizarre. A year ago they made a video about how resolution became meaningless with AI upscaling and that they were going to stop pixel counting - but they’re still doing it (for the clicks I guess?).
mrcroket
Member
Just because the internal resolution doesn't have to be the native resolution of the screen to achieve good IQ thanks to AI, doesn't mean that the internal resolution is irrelevant for good IQ.
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They wanted to find an objective metric to measure visual fidelity as a replacement. But they weren't able to find such a metric.
Hence we now have pixel counting + objective analysis of particular image quality characteristics + subjective analysis about how "good" the overall image looks. Higher pixel counts do result in higher perceived fidelity, everything else being equal. The issue is that they're not a good metric for comparing different titles, where everything else is not equal.
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