Aliens and UFOs
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Romulus
Member
Probably not. Maybe the kids being born in the 2030s and forward will be brought up without the stigma and subconsciously attaching UFO wacks like Corbells and Lazars to everything that could be legitimate.
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haxan7
Banned
Corbell is a wack? You know he was instrumental in setting up the congressional hearing right?
Crayon
Member
Wack or no, respect for what he's done over the last few years. I haven't been suspicious of any deceit from him. Acts like I would expect a hipster-techbro who really cares to act. If he's chased some bum leads I'd don't hold it against him because that's extremely hard to avoid with this stuff.
Romulus
Member
It's 2 different things.
He absolutely deserves credit for pushing the subject, but he's on the extreme side of "everything is alien!" He always steers the conversation to his conclusion that is alien origin.
It's not though. Most have a natural explanation.
He's the exact opposite of skeptics who are secretly fearful of the unknown and scream "everything is explainable through human science!" Then they'll go on to admit science is mostly incomplete in the next breath.
I can't stand either side. Often hypocritical and lack perspective.
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SF Kosmo
Banned
There's a difference between believing something that is theoretical but not proven, and something that has been actively disproven a million times over (like the Judeo-Christian religious texts).
You seem awfully self assured for someone with no proof.
I don't claim to know what's going on with these accounts or these programs, but I don't see why aliens is a less plausible explanation than incredibly anachronistic future tech by humans.
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Crayon
Member
Same here. I don't think aliens would necessarily be the wildest answer. I'd be more surprised if we had some multi generational leap in technology for the last 50+ years. Possible I guess, but I'd be shocked.
Grildon Tundy
Member
Jeremy Corbell is a self-important goober-weirdo, but also genuine in his enthusiasm.
His proximity to Bob Lazar makes me question his credibility, though.
Draugoth
Gold Member
It seems like a lot of people were straight up afraid to talk to anyone about the incident because of potential serious repercussions. You should check out "Moment of Contact." It's on Crackle so you can watch it for free
The coroner who made the necropsy on the soldier came foward after the documentary, he said that the soldier died of a bacterial infection (i dont remember what the scientific name was) which he implicity stated that the cause of death wasn't natural as the bacterium didn't behave like you would expect from it. The hospital staff and military specifically told him to adulterate the obituary which is why the soldier's death was disconsidered by the general public.
Other witness came foward after the documentary aired but you would have to speak portuguese to understand their testimony.
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sono
Gold Member
Link to a declassified 2021 report from the United States Office of The Director of National Intelligence on UAP.
While containing a lot of details some of the headlines are
"UAP clearly pose a safety of flight issue and may pose a challenge to U.S. national security.
..
144 reports originated from USG sources. Of these, 80 reports involved observation, with multiple sensors. Most reports described UAP as objects that interrupted pre-planned training or other military activity."
..
And a Handful of UAP Appear to Demonstrate Advanced Technology In 18 incidents, described in 21 reports, observers reported unusual UAP movement patterns or flight characteristics. Some UAP appeared to remain stationary in winds aloft, move against the wind, maneuver abruptly, or move at considerable speed, without discernable means of propulsion. In a small number of cases, military aircraft systems processed radio frequency (RF) energy associated with UAP sightings.
After carefully considering this information, the UAPTF focused on reports that involved UAP largely witnessed first hand by military aviators and that were collected from systems we considered to be reliable. These reports describe incidents that occurred between 2004 and 2021, with the majority coming in the last two years as the new reporting mechanism became better known to the military aviation community. We were able to identify one reported UAP with high confidence. In that case, we identified the object as a large, deflating balloon. The others remain unexplained." (The report says out of 144 confirmed reports we couldnt identity 143 of them!)
"objects in this category pending scientific advances that allowed us to better understand them. The UAPTF intends to focus additional analysis on the small number of cases where a UAP appeared to display unusual flight characteristics or signature management." (So this government report is saying the technology used is beyond our current understanding)
So the 2023 congress meeting contains information that the government already knew and was already available to Nasa since before 2021 : "multiple sensors" "collected from systems we considered to be reliable"
While containing a lot of details some of the headlines are
"UAP clearly pose a safety of flight issue and may pose a challenge to U.S. national security.
..
144 reports originated from USG sources. Of these, 80 reports involved observation, with multiple sensors. Most reports described UAP as objects that interrupted pre-planned training or other military activity."
..
And a Handful of UAP Appear to Demonstrate Advanced Technology In 18 incidents, described in 21 reports, observers reported unusual UAP movement patterns or flight characteristics. Some UAP appeared to remain stationary in winds aloft, move against the wind, maneuver abruptly, or move at considerable speed, without discernable means of propulsion. In a small number of cases, military aircraft systems processed radio frequency (RF) energy associated with UAP sightings.
After carefully considering this information, the UAPTF focused on reports that involved UAP largely witnessed first hand by military aviators and that were collected from systems we considered to be reliable. These reports describe incidents that occurred between 2004 and 2021, with the majority coming in the last two years as the new reporting mechanism became better known to the military aviation community. We were able to identify one reported UAP with high confidence. In that case, we identified the object as a large, deflating balloon. The others remain unexplained." (The report says out of 144 confirmed reports we couldnt identity 143 of them!)
"objects in this category pending scientific advances that allowed us to better understand them. The UAPTF intends to focus additional analysis on the small number of cases where a UAP appeared to display unusual flight characteristics or signature management." (So this government report is saying the technology used is beyond our current understanding)
So the 2023 congress meeting contains information that the government already knew and was already available to Nasa since before 2021 : "multiple sensors" "collected from systems we considered to be reliable"
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HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
As a German, I find most of this highly confusing. I don't know shit about American state law and how your billions of intelligence agencies work. It's easy to see that people like Greer are full of it (and probably psychologically unstable), but Grusch and Fravor? Fravor in particular strikes me as very believeable and sincere.
So, what happens next? If I'm not mistaken, Luna and Burchett got the middle finger by the IntelligenceCommittee Community (what's the difference?!) requesting access to a SCIF, no? Is there any news on the development on that front (how do they get into a SCIF)? Anyone still making a real effort here to get to the bottom of it? Or will this just be forgotten in about a week or so, while Grusch and friends can cash in on the story with books and speeches at ufologist symposium?
So, what happens next? If I'm not mistaken, Luna and Burchett got the middle finger by the Intelligence
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Romulus
Member
The denial to a scif is pretty recent.
It's been years since graves/fravor came out. No book deals. I highly doubt we see that from Grusch.
Chittagong
Gold Member
The Hill is saying essentially the same thing:
A monumental UFO scandal is looming
Either the U.S. government has mounted an extraordinary, decades-long coverup of UFO retrieval and reverse engineering activities, or elements of the defense and intelligence establishment are enga…
thehill.com
AcrosstheSea
Banned
He's been on record many times saying he doesn't know what they are his problem is covering up what the government does know and debunkers not even being open to possibilities.
HerjansEagleFeeder
No way this goes back in the bottle at this point. For one there's apparently further witnesses coming down the pipeline. The witnesses are rumored to be first hand witnesses of said reverse engineering programs. There's rumors of near 4k quality satellite imagery of spacecraft that they want to get released. Schumer's bill on this stuff now exists...
I don't think they can hush this away at this point. What I do expect is a lot of dragging of feet to make disclosure happen as slow of a pace as possible. This is probably for the best cuz if this is true it'll probably cause quite the ontological shock.
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Crayon
Member
The Hill is saying essentially the same thing:
A monumental UFO scandal is looming
Either the U.S. government has mounted an extraordinary, decades-long coverup of UFO retrieval and reverse engineering activities, or elements of the defense and intelligence establishment are enga…
You forgot option 4.
4 - It's a bird.
Grildon Tundy
Member
But only the US has crashes/sightings! Is what folks in this thread told me, and with such authority!
Crayon
Member
AcrosstheSea
Banned
Yeah the fact that this has been going on for decades all over the world should show something else is going on..
sono
Gold Member
I thought that the BBC tv not covering the Grusch story was notable in its absence, however they now have done a 5min Radio broadcast of an interview with David Grusch after the hearing
Replay available here
Replay available here
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Yes, that this is a flat earth level conspiracy. But instead of world powers hiding the ice wall, they hide aliens.
Romulus
Member
The problem is people who claim the world powers are hiding flat earth data have zero evidence of nations taking part in this. UAP studies are actually happening across the world, and have been for decades independent of one another.
midnightAI
Member
So you are saying Aliens definitely don't exist?
Exactly! And nothing tangible has come of it. But conspiracist are parroting how crashes have happened in several countries and there's a coordinated multiple nation effort to hide the alien truth - recovered crafts, alien bodies, reverse engineering efforts etc.
Maybe they exist, maybe even visited earth. I can't say that for certain. Give me evidence. I'm open to this being truth.
But the whole "recovered alien tech, bodies" part is a pure made up fantasy which took off with the whole Roswell incident. And the fact Grusch is trying to sell this stupid idea like recovered crafts by Mussolini etc. makes me think that his "evidence" is all the fake UFO lore built up since the Roswell. And his "sources" are all the same names you've see for years in UFO circles. The same names who are just spinning a yarn without any evidence.
"I know people who know people with evidence. I've seen evidence and even have some but can't show it..." Bla bla, same old stories.
What I find even more hilarious is this idea that governments have all the "evidence". Meanwhile rest of the world can't scrape together more than some lights in the sky. Oh boy, but the stories are amazing "So, I went home from work and then this giant black triangle appeared. From that moment I became a believer!", "Oh yeah buddy, I totally believe you because last year I saw it too."
Please...
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rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Seems to me strange that americans have (or believe to have) agencies so vast and big that they almost control whole world from the undergrounds.
FBI?! Nah man, there are deeper agencies that nobody knows about.
Like cmon... things would leak. You can't keep that a secret. Ofcurse usa and every other country have military secrets but that's probably about it.
And there is no way UFo would only crash in usa
Chiggs
Gold Member
MadAnon doing a fabulous job demonstrating the "no evidence is good enough" moving goal post argument.
They are leaking?
They are leaking?
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
If it was THIS huge, we would have more than 2-3 guys who just look like liars to me.
but maybe it is leaking in fact
Chiggs
Gold Member
I have to fundamentally disagree on the liars part. If we were talking about that wretched Dr. Steven Greer press club event back in June, I'd be in lock-step with you. Those people, sans the old man who was a U2 pilot, were complete liars.
In terms of the slow trickle of information, I realize it's frustrating as hell, but the threat of revocation of security clearance, the general cowardice of people, a distracted public, and a lot of idiots and liars crowding the scene certainly haven't helped. It's a shit show, no doubt about it.
But this...it just seems to be have momentum.
nush
Member
2 or 3 guys, just in the last month. It's not like anybody else has ever made these claims in previous decades.
You are thinking logically. That's not allowed in ufology.
Even Manhattan project was infiltrated and leaked like sieve.
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
Well, it is leaking since at least 1947 or so. It's also common knowledge that the US gov has repeatedly lied about what they know and did about the phenomenon (which, of course, doesn't proof anything).
Regarding the crash sites: I don't recall anyone claiming they only crashed in the States. In fact, David Grusch told the public that the first retrieved vehicle came from Italy and crashed there in the early 1930s.
Romulus
Member
Tangible to who though? The public? It would be like the US sharing the SR71 to the public, UK sharing their secret shit, and also Russian while it was in development. Anything potential piece of tech from another planet is a viable weapons platform first and foremost and I would wager it would take decades or centuries to reverse-engineer it. I don't see them openly talking about it or sharing how far their progress is.
I don't see many claiming that concealing of info is a worldwide effort. Seems more like a logical thought that this effort would be independent. You have crazy tech and so do we, neither of us discuss it because it shows our cards. That's not the same as all these countries having UAP programs for decades either, that's a very different and solid point.
Even though I think Lazar is full of shit, the idea that the government has to sit on a potential craft until technologies improve makes sense to me. It would be like gifting a 1700s-era scientist a consumer drone(even a cheap China one). Good luck with that for about 150-200 years!
It's not impossible that we are involved with these visitors in some way and we have their shit. Most of it is probably bullshit of course. Bodies etc seems far fetched, but I've been conditioned by scifi films there.
The other thing I'd like to know concerning your Grusch point. Elizondo and those guys were all part of a different time frame in the military, and there are other guys going back further than that. So how is it that every 10 years a different set of UFO wackos(with top secret clearances) infiltrate the government and make these same claims? That seems like a bizarre coordinated effort that spans different nations and eras.
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Chiggs
Gold Member
Or in your posts, for that matter.
It has been leaking. For years and years and years. The problem is--brace yourself--the topic was officially smeared by the United States Air Force via Project Blue Book, led by Dr. J Allen Hynek, (who then went on to completely disown the study for the sham it was). Ever since then, there's a targeted campaign to tarnish the topic via a steady stream of kooks and liars who crawl out of the woodwork to talk crazy and muddy the waters.
A lot has changed between the 1940s and now. Think of all the ways to spread misinformation. Think how readily available things like Photoshop and CG are to the mass market. Today's secret projects are not only covered by layers and layers of secrecy and bureaucracy, but are also given air cover by all the nuts and loons floating around out there...some of who are useful idiots and some of who are intentionally placed.
Also, I'm glad you saw Oppenheimer and want to talk big and smart, but if you can't figure out the differences between an intelligence leak in the 1940s...on a program where families were living with the scientists...then there's really no convincing you. But I'll give it one last try: do you think the tactics they use now are the same they used back then? Nothing has changed?
Romulus
Member
So no one can keep a secret but the military, but you don't think the military is involved in any potential UAP programs?
Secret keeping is not some across-the-board thing. It's a skill developed by different agencies and nations. I mean the nighthawk was flying since the 70s in testing and the "leaks" were about as credible as UFO stories/pics people constantly discredit.
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midnightAI
Member
I think you misinterpreted my post. You compared it to flat earth, which definitely isn't true. There is no cover up with flat earth because there is nothing at all to cover up.
(So I was just pointing out it's a bad comparison)
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What has been leaking for years? Alien crafts, bodies have been recovered and there are reverese engineering programs? You call that a leak?
And your comparison of "now vs 40s" is really bizzare when 40s is exactly when this whole "recovered alien craft" craze was born after Roswell. And only because one guy supposedly claimed that something not of this world crashed.
By the way, you completely whiffed with the whole Oppenheimer movie part.
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I will copy and paste a comment I saw on reddit...
"UFOs have been a part of US culture for the past 50 years. Many people grew up hearing stories and wanting to believe in UFOs. Roswell, area 51 are legendary. These people grew up and are now pilots and government officials.
Sensors can fail, and people can jump to conclusions. A pilot who thinks aliens are real is likely to attribute a mysterious event to aliens. An investigator getting stonewalled about crash retrieval is going to think about alien coverups. Maybe they will talk to others who are also believers in UFOs, who also have jumped to conclusions about the unknown.
Maybe the crashes they are retrieving is Russian and Chinese jets and drones, and some guy from the uap task force definitely doesn't need to know about that. Maybe other officials have heard rumours about the program, and speculated that they must be dealing with aliens.
Eventually all the speculators get together and share their rumours and stories, and grusch goes to Congress with the names of the people stonewalling him from this mysterious program."
Sounds familiar? Harry Reid and his beliefs in supernatural. His buddy Bigelow who also believes supernatural and lobbied Reid to fund these UAP resesrch programs. When I look at all the names, their involment with wacky skinwalker ranches etc., you start to connect the dots. And now you have Grusch who went to alien conferences with all these same wackos. Makes you wonder.
Crayon
Member
That's a reddit copy and paste, alright. Paragraph by paragraph: Pilot witnesses and anyone willing to investigate are "these people", Sensors and recording devices are no more reliable than "these people", maybe maybe maybe, a fantastical shot in the dark.
Seriously wtf was that. Wanting to believe and not wanting to believe will both have the same distortion on critical thinking.
Fighter pilots are about the best witnesses we can ask for and they literally swear they saw it. There was sensor data to back them up. There are weird things flying around. There was already a report admitting as much 2 years ago. That's all we know. The facts right now are not exactly mind melting. If you need to keep telling yourself everyone is crazy and the sensors are broken because (it can't be) aliens then who's jumping to conclusions?
EddieVanHelgen
Banned
Ah we are back to the 'it would have leaked' argument. It has leaked. It has leaked for decades. Its the reason we have the X Files.
Romulus
Member
Yeah idk. This ia very different from your comment that it is possible that we're experiencing something unknown. That's seems reasonable.
This guy seeks to steer every possible thing away from the unknown without a shred of openness. I'm willing to entertain that it is some human phenomenon that we can't understand, however unlikely on my view.
The best case ever involves Com Fravor and he's the least 'UFO guy' guy I've ever heard.
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Chiggs
Gold Member
So there are no leaks, except for Roswell...which isn't a leak because it's a craze? Okay, you're a genius. Wow.
And Roswell is comparable to The Manhattan Project because they're both in the 1940s? Huh? You're off the tracks, man.
Think whatever thoughts are most comforting to you.
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MilkyJoe
Member
Well you heard about it before last week didn't you?
This is a drip feed over decades, you think people could take it all in one hit. No one cares cause everyone already knows
sono
Gold Member
This is what has changed in recent years due to more sophisticated equipment. Sensor data is cold hard factual not subject to mis conception or verbal testimony
Also
Identifying Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) with Michio Kaku. #shorts
Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku on the burden of proof when it comes to the government and UFOs/UAPs.
m.youtube.com
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
Has anyone stumbled upon this piece here, yet?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Seems to be an attempt at an estimation of some flight capabilities of these things by physicists.
Estimating Flight Characteristics of Anomalous Unidentified Aerial Vehicles - PMC
Several Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) encountered by military, commercial, and civilian aircraft have been reported to be structured craft that exhibit ‘impossible’ flight characteristics. We consider a handful of well-documented encounters, ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Seems to be an attempt at an estimation of some flight capabilities of these things by physicists.
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Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
From the articleHas anyone stumbled upon this piece here, yet?
Estimating Flight Characteristics of Anomalous Unidentified Aerial Vehicles - PMC
Several Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) encountered by military, commercial, and civilian aircraft have been reported to be structured craft that exhibit ‘impossible’ flight characteristics. We consider a handful of well-documented encounters, ...
Seems to be an attempt at an estimation of some flight capabilities of these things by physicists.
"Estimated accelerations range from almost 100g to 1000s of gs with no observed air disturbance, no sonic booms, and no evidence of excessive heat commensurate with even the minimal estimated energies. In accordance with observations, the estimated parameters describing the behavior of these craft are both anomalous and surprising. The extreme estimated flight characteristics reveal that these observations are either fabricated or seriously in error, or that these craft exhibit technology far more advanced than any known craft on Earth"
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
Professor Knuth seems like a nice guy, he did a podcast episode with Curt Jaimungal:
AcrosstheSea
Banned
I missed a lot in here but I swear to god if I hear someone say where's the evidence one more time I'm gonna lose my f'ing mind.
I'll repeat : THIS IS LITERALLY WHY DAVID GRUSCH TESTIFIED UNDER OATH ABOUT THIS. HE'S SEEN EVIDENCE AND HAS TALKED TO FIRST HAND WITNESSES OF THESE PROGRAMS, FROM VERY CREDIBLE PEOPLE.
THIS WHOLE PROCESS IS BEING DONE TO EVENTUALLY ( HOPEFULLY ) LEAD TO DISCLOSURE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND LIKELY CAUSE A SNOWBALL EFFECT ELSEWHERE.
let it play out and hopefully we will get the hard details that right now only the intelligence committee and inspector general has.
I'll repeat : THIS IS LITERALLY WHY DAVID GRUSCH TESTIFIED UNDER OATH ABOUT THIS. HE'S SEEN EVIDENCE AND HAS TALKED TO FIRST HAND WITNESSES OF THESE PROGRAMS, FROM VERY CREDIBLE PEOPLE.
THIS WHOLE PROCESS IS BEING DONE TO EVENTUALLY ( HOPEFULLY ) LEAD TO DISCLOSURE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND LIKELY CAUSE A SNOWBALL EFFECT ELSEWHERE.
let it play out and hopefully we will get the hard details that right now only the intelligence committee and inspector general has.
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