Nope. Even the marvel films (back when they were good) acknowledged that Cap represented America.
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Captain America: Brave New World | Official Trailer
- Thread starter HRK69
- Start date
Doom85
Member
When you’re having to resort to referencing ass jokes for your argument, that’s not a good sign.
I don't believe it. This film stands out as needing EXTENSIVE reshoots.
CAPTAIN AMERICA: BRAVE NEW WORLD Report Details Frustrating Reshoots, A Difficult Harrison Ford, And More
A Captain America: Brave New World crew member has shared intel on the movie's issues, detailing problems behind the scenes, with Harrison Ford called "one of the crankiest performers I ever dealt with."
Captain America: Brave New World Reshoots Reportedly Keep Piling Up After More Bad Test Screenings
Captain America: Brave New World reportedly needs even more work just months before its scheduled release date.
gamerant.com
‘Captain America: Brave New World’ Reshoots Underway With New Pages, New Mystery Character
Giancarlo Esposito joins the cast for part of a 22-day shoot as a villainous character.
www.hollywoodreporter.com
Captain America 4 Star Confirms Those Worrying Rumors About the Movie
After Captain America 4 went through major changes, one of its actors shared insight into what was adjusted.
thedirect.com
Marvel's First 2025 Movie Is Getting Rewritten & Reshot (Report)
Marvel Studios looks to make some substantial changes to its first MCU movie of 2025.
thedirect.com
Captain America 4 Is Reportedly Getting Extensive Reshoots After Negative Test Scores
Captain America: Brave New World is having some trouble behind the scenes according to new reports.
movieweb.com
More Reshoots: Test Audiences Still Don't Like 'Captain America: Brave New World' - Bleeding Fool
Here we go again! Just a few months away from the release of “Captain America: Brave New World,” and Marvel is still not done with their endless tinkering. Scooper Daniel Richtman reports that a third round of test screenings for the film recently took place, and, surprise surprise, the reaction...
bleedingfool.com
I tried to grab multiple reports from multiple sources over TWO YEARS as this disaster of a film has been hammered into something watchable. The only films I've heard with this kinda production shit was Rogue One and Solo, though apparently Dr. Stange 2 had issues as well (never finished that one). So either they have just been chopping up the existing footage over and over with rescoring and new CG leading to the "reshoots" rumors or they HAVE been redoing this film. I'm inclined to believe the latter.
Its the PERFECT sign. Captain America represents AMERICA so well his very ass is patriotic.
When you’re having to resort to referencing ass jokes for your argument, that’s not a good sign.
Cry in your cornflakes all you want, some notion that Captain America doesn't embody the average working Joe american and instead is some mythic "ideal american" is straight lunacy. He IS America, it's in his damned name! The MCU makes this very clear.
Doom85
Member
Funny, once again, were you chill about a certain large group with a four letter acronym slogan for the past decade screaming about how America isn’t “great” and needs to be made “great” again? Weird how they’re allowed to say all that shit
The comics, the source material itself, is on my side. Cry your misinformation somewhere else. The actual Captain America fans are getting tired of hearing it.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
The concept of "inheriting" the shield instead of earning it is atrocious. That, for starters. The idea is even worse if the chosen one is a guy with lame powers who in the minds of the audience is just a support character. This is as terrible as Rey being a skywalker, Spiderman in an Ironman suit or Robin becoming Batman.
Doom85
Member
Grant Morrison’s run where Dick Grayson becomes Batman is considered the highlight of an already beloved run. The Black Mirror comic, again with Dick as Batman, by Scott Snyder is another highly acclaimed arc.
Also, Nightwing, a supporting character?
Bro has lead the Teen Titans to victory against world-threatening villains and is considered one of the most inspiring figures of the DC universe.
Once again, this is why knowing the source material MATTERS.
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
The only multiverse / alternative timeline I believe in is one where Disney never purchased Marvel and Star Wars -- easily the worst thing to happen to the movies & pop culture in my four decades of life. The soul-crushing emptiness of everything modern Disney touches is simply unbelievable.
And nothing is more central to that soullessness than the "anyone can wear the mask" concept. Despite any narrative reasons provided, or laughable multi-timeline nonsense they sometimes introduce, it has only one hidden purpose and effect: to turn characters in pure brand commodities. Anyone can be Superman, Spiderman, Thor, whatever... because there is not character underneath, it's just a series of brand IPs that Disney manages -- eg "the purpose of the system is what it does." And that's all there is to it, running brands to pump out increasingly stupid films and worthless plastic.
I always think of the amazing intro to Wall-E (before Pixar also succumbed into the mediocrity of all things Disney) and those mountains of trash on earth, and it's obvious what that would/will really look like: mountains of baby yoda dolls, captain phasmas unopened and finally dumped from their third thrift store, endless superhero junk of every kind. Disney is literally the tangible embodiment of everything empty and consumerist, totally machine to its core.
That's why the political overtures they lace on top are so insultingly empty--it's a surface like when an aging boomer who lives in a mc-mansion and checks his stock investments daily goes to a weekend concert and bangs his head to old political ballads from the 1960s, as if he's part of some resistance rather than the very face of the worst excesses of empty capital. That's Disney now -- a worthless corporate lackey managing his IP portfolio, but wearing a Woodstock tshirt.
And nothing is more central to that soullessness than the "anyone can wear the mask" concept. Despite any narrative reasons provided, or laughable multi-timeline nonsense they sometimes introduce, it has only one hidden purpose and effect: to turn characters in pure brand commodities. Anyone can be Superman, Spiderman, Thor, whatever... because there is not character underneath, it's just a series of brand IPs that Disney manages -- eg "the purpose of the system is what it does." And that's all there is to it, running brands to pump out increasingly stupid films and worthless plastic.
I always think of the amazing intro to Wall-E (before Pixar also succumbed into the mediocrity of all things Disney) and those mountains of trash on earth, and it's obvious what that would/will really look like: mountains of baby yoda dolls, captain phasmas unopened and finally dumped from their third thrift store, endless superhero junk of every kind. Disney is literally the tangible embodiment of everything empty and consumerist, totally machine to its core.
That's why the political overtures they lace on top are so insultingly empty--it's a surface like when an aging boomer who lives in a mc-mansion and checks his stock investments daily goes to a weekend concert and bangs his head to old political ballads from the 1960s, as if he's part of some resistance rather than the very face of the worst excesses of empty capital. That's Disney now -- a worthless corporate lackey managing his IP portfolio, but wearing a Woodstock tshirt.
Funny, once again, were you chill about a certain large group with a four letter acronym slogan for the past decade screaming about how America isn’t “great” and needs to be made “great” again? Weird how they’re allowed to say all that shit
The comics, the source material itself, is on my side. Cry your misinformation somewhere else. The actual Captain America fans are getting tired of hearing it.
He looks sooo.... American! Hard to imagine how he could look more....American!
Doom85
Member
This concept has been around since the 1950’s when Hal Jordan became the second Green Lantern and Barry Allen became the second Flash.
And no, they’re not the same characters. For example, anyone who thinks John Stewart and Guy Gardener are the same type of character because they both are Green Lanterns clearly has zero familiarity with either character. Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and Damian Wayne are all very different people despite all being Robins. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown could not be more polar opposites in personality when they each debuted as Batgirl.
And all these legacy characters I mentioned, and many others, debuted well before Disney owned some, and later, all of Marvel.
The person underneath and what they do is what matters. Getting this hung up on a code name and a costume shows a shallow view of these characters. Sounds like Tony Stark would have a few words for you.
Okay, pal, if you’re not actually capable of addressing any of my points and just want to throw out base level, superficial “observations”, I’d say we’re done here.
You've been cooked since we started. You can cite lots of comic strips but you don't understand well the underlying narrative and structure of what works and what doesn't about them.
You are confusing a deity superhero like Superman, for a human hero like Cap. Superman isn't human, he represents an idealized American because no human COULD EVER become like him.
But Cap, he IS an American. He is one of us, just the BEST of us. Marvel doesn't deal with mythic archetypes nearly as much as DC does, nor nearly as well. Their heroes are human, with flaws and weaknesses. Steve Rogers can't be a supreme idealized American because he is only human. But he is from an America that stopped the ultimate evil, worked together, was united, was optimistic in a way that a post-9/11 America can't be, but remembers being. THAT is his appeal, that he is the pure and uncorruptible version of an American because we WERE like that once, even if just in the stories we tell ourselves. So to say Captain America represents things, but "America" isn't one of them, is to betray the very notion of the character. But maybe that's Sams flaw, he doesn't have the HOPE Steve has and the ability to see the best in people. Maybe that's his journey as a character, to get that hope back and be great again. Falcon can be jaded, cynical, and snarky because he is just a sidekick. The HERO has to rise above that.
HoodWinked
Member
Alcibiades
Member
Got home from watching this in Cinemark XD (basically an off-brand lieMax).
Thought it was OK. The story was OK, acting was OK, actions scenes OK, etc... It had some bad moments and the comic book movie humor got old ages ago, but it could have been a lot worse (like The Marvels which was really bad).
+I remembered seeing Hulk in a trailer and kept on wondering when that super political actor was going to show up, then I thought it was the bad guy, then the President in the movie but he never turned when he could, so then I thought would it be the brainy guy? Would have been better if they left the Hulk character off the trailer, posters, etc... for it to be a complete surprise but at least I was kept guessing most of the time, although by the time the Indian Ocean naval scene came on I was like 90% sure it was the President.
+Mackie could have been a lot worse. The worst part about the performance is that it felt tired, like we've seen this before. The "woo is me I'm not worthy" story angle is more at fault for the performance than the actor I think.
+Harrison Ford was OK, also could have been a lot worse.
-Run time. I was surprised at how "short" it was at under two hours, but this would have worked really well as an even-shorter 90 minute film. Maybe cut an actor or two, remove that pointless cameo near the end, including all the "I'm not worthy" stuff. Would have been a great turn-off-your-brain action movie. I guess I should be grateful it wasn't a 2 1/2 hour film where the movie could end multiple times but doesn't.
-Nothing too exciting happens overall, outside of the President turning into Hulk which was pretty cool
-The movie is REALLY dragged down by trying to tie into a bigger universe. No need for the giant dead celestial, no need for that cameo, no need to mention the Widow program, or adamantium, or Wakanda mention.
Time to end this Marvel movie universe crap and take a different non-shared universe approach. The post-Endgame stories have been told and no one seems to care about all the loose ends. I remember being so intrigued at the ending scenes in The Eternals, but like that feels like it was so long ago I'm not sure I care anymore.
DC should also take this advice, stop with the shared universe. I actually wouldn't mind if DC finished up their last one because they didn't wrap things up properly, but please stop making new universes. People don't have time for that and in general it makes movies worse. Or at least, the Marvel ones, since I did appreciate how self-contained most of the X-Men and DC movies were - you didn't need to know too much. Like the last X-Men movie, The New Mutants, could be enjoyed 100% without having watched others.
And please keep X-Men stuff separate from Marvel. Say what you want about Fox X-Men movie quality, but with the X-Men/mutant franchise alone they got a ton of movies out over more than a decade. Imagine trying to cram in a dozen new movies and 50+ new mutant characters into an already-bloated Marvel universe. It's not gonna work and people are exhausted at the complexity (or at least I am).
EDIT: Meant to mention, I didn't really see this as "woke" or too political, at least not beyond what we've already seen from Marvel movies. Like I guess the President if you tried hard could be Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton in certain respects but he wasn't even doing anything THAT outrageous. He was a selfish asshole (like all politicians) and collateral damage is a given, but he seemed to want a peaceful world and acted pretty reasonable for the most part.
I've watched every Marvel movie in theaters ever since Ant-Man and I did consider skipping this one based on the stuff about Mackie's comments about Captain America shouldn't represent "America" as a value or whatever, but at this point I've just accepted most celebrities (and rich people in general) are basically living lives so comfortably that they have nothing better to do than delve into Anti-America (and western values in general) crap. I also think people are only making a fuss about this because of the last decade of hysteria politics and wokeness/anti-wokeness. If he said this in 2000 I think general audiences may have cared a bit less about this. Social media nowadays amplifies every controversial thing that's said. Sorta like in The Batman when Catwoman says something about white men, it's a slyly funny line meant to get a smile, but due to the racial tension over the last decade everyone made a big deal about it even though it was almost a throw-away line.
Thought it was OK. The story was OK, acting was OK, actions scenes OK, etc... It had some bad moments and the comic book movie humor got old ages ago, but it could have been a lot worse (like The Marvels which was really bad).
+I remembered seeing Hulk in a trailer and kept on wondering when that super political actor was going to show up, then I thought it was the bad guy, then the President in the movie but he never turned when he could, so then I thought would it be the brainy guy? Would have been better if they left the Hulk character off the trailer, posters, etc... for it to be a complete surprise but at least I was kept guessing most of the time, although by the time the Indian Ocean naval scene came on I was like 90% sure it was the President.
+Mackie could have been a lot worse. The worst part about the performance is that it felt tired, like we've seen this before. The "woo is me I'm not worthy" story angle is more at fault for the performance than the actor I think.
+Harrison Ford was OK, also could have been a lot worse.
-Run time. I was surprised at how "short" it was at under two hours, but this would have worked really well as an even-shorter 90 minute film. Maybe cut an actor or two, remove that pointless cameo near the end, including all the "I'm not worthy" stuff. Would have been a great turn-off-your-brain action movie. I guess I should be grateful it wasn't a 2 1/2 hour film where the movie could end multiple times but doesn't.
-Nothing too exciting happens overall, outside of the President turning into Hulk which was pretty cool
-The movie is REALLY dragged down by trying to tie into a bigger universe. No need for the giant dead celestial, no need for that cameo, no need to mention the Widow program, or adamantium, or Wakanda mention.
Time to end this Marvel movie universe crap and take a different non-shared universe approach. The post-Endgame stories have been told and no one seems to care about all the loose ends. I remember being so intrigued at the ending scenes in The Eternals, but like that feels like it was so long ago I'm not sure I care anymore.
DC should also take this advice, stop with the shared universe. I actually wouldn't mind if DC finished up their last one because they didn't wrap things up properly, but please stop making new universes. People don't have time for that and in general it makes movies worse. Or at least, the Marvel ones, since I did appreciate how self-contained most of the X-Men and DC movies were - you didn't need to know too much. Like the last X-Men movie, The New Mutants, could be enjoyed 100% without having watched others.
And please keep X-Men stuff separate from Marvel. Say what you want about Fox X-Men movie quality, but with the X-Men/mutant franchise alone they got a ton of movies out over more than a decade. Imagine trying to cram in a dozen new movies and 50+ new mutant characters into an already-bloated Marvel universe. It's not gonna work and people are exhausted at the complexity (or at least I am).
EDIT: Meant to mention, I didn't really see this as "woke" or too political, at least not beyond what we've already seen from Marvel movies. Like I guess the President if you tried hard could be Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton in certain respects but he wasn't even doing anything THAT outrageous. He was a selfish asshole (like all politicians) and collateral damage is a given, but he seemed to want a peaceful world and acted pretty reasonable for the most part.
I've watched every Marvel movie in theaters ever since Ant-Man and I did consider skipping this one based on the stuff about Mackie's comments about Captain America shouldn't represent "America" as a value or whatever, but at this point I've just accepted most celebrities (and rich people in general) are basically living lives so comfortably that they have nothing better to do than delve into Anti-America (and western values in general) crap. I also think people are only making a fuss about this because of the last decade of hysteria politics and wokeness/anti-wokeness. If he said this in 2000 I think general audiences may have cared a bit less about this. Social media nowadays amplifies every controversial thing that's said. Sorta like in The Batman when Catwoman says something about white men, it's a slyly funny line meant to get a smile, but due to the racial tension over the last decade everyone made a big deal about it even though it was almost a throw-away line.
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Doom85
Member
I’m done responding to you until you actually address my many prior points that you failed to address. Also, now you’re just flat out flip-flopping. “Cap represents what America USED to be.” That is not what you’ve been saying up to this point. Deaf said it, but not you.
Also, the Allies stopped Nazi Germany, not just America. In fact, the main comic universe Steve Rogers flat out displays disgust towards those who mock the French as “cowards”, as it shows ignorance toward how hard the French people fought, and this is also referring to the infamous panel where the Ultimate (alternate) universe’s Steve Rogers mocked France.
Also, way to not get Superman. Superman is inspiring because of his compassion, selflessness, determination, etc.
Don’t be like Lex Luthor, who refused to get it, and failed to see how to become like Superman where it mattered. Lex only sought to match Superman’s power, and never his kind and understanding heart.
Lex Luthor: “I could have saved the world if it wasn’t for you!”
Superman: “You could have saved the world years ago if it mattered to you, Luthor.”
Seeing Superman’s power as an “obstacle” to become like Superman where it actually matters is short-sighted just like Lex was (though in your case, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not going full super villain).
Also, no, the comics matter. They are the source material. And you are now on my list in that matter, and in the future, the second you quote source material on an IP YOU care about, I hope you’re ready for some receipts to be handed to you.
TDiddyLive
Member
‘Captain America: Brave New World’ Is The Lowest Scoring MCU Movie On Metacritic
Captain America: Brave New World is actually the lowest scoring MCU movie of all on Metacritic, which is a very bad sign for the film and its lead character.
www.forbes.com
While the previews look like trash, I can’t believe this is worse than The Marvels. I guess I’ll wait for Disney+ to find out.
Alcibiades
Member
Oh and one thing that crossed my mind is they should have finally introduced a gay character in a major role. Like did Sam or his good-looking Hispanic sidekick (which I forgot about completely when I made my post above, tells you how forgettable some of this movie is and I watched it a few hours ago) have female romantic interests? Why not make them lovers or play up some sexual tension lol?
Like, we've had almost every type of diversity character out there but not a single major comic book movie has a leading or even sidekick gay character. I get it that comic action heroes don't need to be gay, but they don't need to be straight either and yet most have female love interests. Representation does matter and if you're gonna make a big deal about supporting Pride and LGBT stuff, then put your money where your mouth is. Someone please care about the gays please!?
I get Disney is going less woke but gay visibility and acceptance should not be a "woke" issue. I'm actually glad they are removing trigger warnings, but I hope they still push for gay representation in their movies. And not in a dumb way like some random guy in therapy in Endgame or some supposed background kiss in the last Star Wars. Like make the next Captain America full on gay, but also not like Star Trek Discovery which picked the stereotypical American coastal flaming gay. Pretend you're making any other comic film then change the love interest to a male thats it. No need to perpetuate stereotypes. Which I have nothing against and actually think femininity and flaming can be really cool, but we've seen enough in movies at this point and there isn't enough stereotype-breaking.
Make a otherwise regular standard superhero the same as the others but gay. Like, they should have made Ant-Man or someone of his level or higher gay. Oh, I just remembered about the Eternals black dude - what bothered me about that is that it felt VERY forced. Like why am I supposed to care about this dude's personal life? Also the guy wasn't very good looking. Make a leading hot dude the gay one!
I also thought this recently while watching The Flash TV show, like when they brought in Wally West would have been perfect to throw in a high-level gay character. Heck, I got an even better idea they could have made it a love triangle with both Iris and Wally in love with Barry.
OK rambling rant over maybe I'm a bit high from my edible.
Like, we've had almost every type of diversity character out there but not a single major comic book movie has a leading or even sidekick gay character. I get it that comic action heroes don't need to be gay, but they don't need to be straight either and yet most have female love interests. Representation does matter and if you're gonna make a big deal about supporting Pride and LGBT stuff, then put your money where your mouth is. Someone please care about the gays please!?
I get Disney is going less woke but gay visibility and acceptance should not be a "woke" issue. I'm actually glad they are removing trigger warnings, but I hope they still push for gay representation in their movies. And not in a dumb way like some random guy in therapy in Endgame or some supposed background kiss in the last Star Wars. Like make the next Captain America full on gay, but also not like Star Trek Discovery which picked the stereotypical American coastal flaming gay. Pretend you're making any other comic film then change the love interest to a male thats it. No need to perpetuate stereotypes. Which I have nothing against and actually think femininity and flaming can be really cool, but we've seen enough in movies at this point and there isn't enough stereotype-breaking.
Make a otherwise regular standard superhero the same as the others but gay. Like, they should have made Ant-Man or someone of his level or higher gay. Oh, I just remembered about the Eternals black dude - what bothered me about that is that it felt VERY forced. Like why am I supposed to care about this dude's personal life? Also the guy wasn't very good looking. Make a leading hot dude the gay one!
I also thought this recently while watching The Flash TV show, like when they brought in Wally West would have been perfect to throw in a high-level gay character. Heck, I got an even better idea they could have made it a love triangle with both Iris and Wally in love with Barry.
OK rambling rant over maybe I'm a bit high from my edible.
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Doom85
Member
She might not count in your eyes as she didn’t have a girlfriend yet, but Valkyrie is a lesbian.
DC and Marvel have some major LGBT characters, we just haven’t had film adaptations of them mostly yet, in DC’s case they’re usually in some of the shows so far. Doom Patrol was a well handled TV series adaptation of the DC comic title, and it has several LGBT characters. Batwoman was a poorly handled show but not due to the comic quality as the New 52 comic is solid (Batwoman focuses on dealing with supernatural threats giving her a unique spin in the Batfamily, and yes, she is a lesbian).
But no, I don’t think we need to make sexual orientation changes to major established characters like that, at least not for most characters who are old enough and would have come out by now in the comics if they were LGBT (Tim Drake, the third Robin, was still young enough that him coming out as bisexual was believable). It’s one thing to have certain comic characters played by a different race if it doesn’t contradict significant characterization or stories the character has (so no, a white actor playing Static or T’Challa for example wouldn’t work as those characters have their race be relevant in plenty of comic stories), like Domino in Deadpool 2 or Kingpin in Daredevil (2003) work regardless of the race of the actor or actress playing them, but it’s entirely different to have the script itself altered to make the character themselves a different sexual orientation.
Hey, I hear you, I’m all for representation, I just don’t think making for example Scott Lang gay instead of straight like he is in the comics is the best approach.
I also think Sam is a particular poor choice. If the writers don’t feel like he needs a love interest right now, then that applies to any love interest regardless of gender. Heck, even though they’re a thing in the comics, most fans hated the Steve Rogers and Sharon Carter kiss in the Civil War movie as most felt the actor and actress had no chemistry, hell, Sam and Bucky’s reaction as they watch in the car is the more genuine reaction!
Alcibiades
Member
Yeah I get it'd be better for there to be a pre-existing gay superhero but since none of the major/popular ones are I figure some artistic license wouldn't hurt.
At this point comic continuity seems to be completely out the window anyway. Like Days of Future Past changed the main character going back in time and it worked out really good anyway. Personalities can also be very different from comic to TV or movies so I figure sexual orientation is something they can play with too.
And now that I think about it maybe this movie could have used a love interest. Or maybe it would have been worse forcing one in. Love interests are usually part of the superhero package deal, but on second thought it may have bogged this down even more and the movie should have been 30 min shorter as is.
Blackage
Member
Watched it with a buddy, my normie friend liked it.
I thought it was a pretty bad movie in terms of structure, not as insanely awful as The Marvels was cut together and how it moved from plot point to location, but it was very apparent this movie went through many reshoots, I'm 99% sure that every scene with Anthony Mackie & Giancarlo Esposito were filmed separately and then edited together. The ADR is also incredibly apparent. I thought it had some cool action, neat world building, and decent performances, but the ending was really kind of awful with how it comes to be and how it's resolved. If Marvel is still designing movies like "yeah we want THIS scene in it, then we'll write around it!" they need to stop, cause the Red Hulk fight was stupid.
Anyway, not their worst movie, but also def not a return to form for MCU films. I hope some of the world building they laid out here leads to something cooler in their future films.
I thought it was a pretty bad movie in terms of structure, not as insanely awful as The Marvels was cut together and how it moved from plot point to location, but it was very apparent this movie went through many reshoots, I'm 99% sure that every scene with Anthony Mackie & Giancarlo Esposito were filmed separately and then edited together. The ADR is also incredibly apparent. I thought it had some cool action, neat world building, and decent performances, but the ending was really kind of awful with how it comes to be and how it's resolved. If Marvel is still designing movies like "yeah we want THIS scene in it, then we'll write around it!" they need to stop, cause the Red Hulk fight was stupid.
Like ok, people of this world know what the fuck a Hulk is, they're big angry rampaging monsters, so tell me why the secret service turns their guns on the fucking President after he turns into one. Bruce Banner exists, the Avengers exist, anyone assigned to fucking President Ross should have some idea of his history with the Hulk and what their options MIGHT be if he came after Ross, but for some reason the second he Hulks out THE SECRET SERVICE AGENTS START SHOOTING HIM DESPITE THE FACT HE'S PRESIDENT. Choppers show up out of no where to enrage, do you know how hard it is to get a plane in their air that quick around a President? lol Even Sam shows up and starts attacking him instead of trying to talk him down, and he only talks him down after their big dumb action set-piece fight using Naruto's talk-no-jutsu, it's so incredibly stupid.
Anyway, not their worst movie, but also def not a return to form for MCU films. I hope some of the world building they laid out here leads to something cooler in their future films.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Exactly. For generations the Captain America represented the perfect ideal that USA was trying to sell to the world like the "american dream". Of course in the last decade or two, it has become bad in the western world (especially english speaking one due to guilt tripping, failing economies and so on) to take pride in your country, or respect it and so on thus there is (was) an attempt to sell the "universal values". But overall the Captain America is the american person, the american hero, the american good guy. Nobody who cares about Captain America associates it with the "Captain Italy" or whatever. It even has "America" in his name. If you want the universal hero, you can for example say that Superman is the one probably.
Plus, for some reason, on the west it has become edgy to treat every hero as a "not a good guy" because "there are no perfect heroes", that every hero had a dark side and so on.
Spiderman is still Spiderman though. Though I agree that the idea of inheriting stuff is nonsense and is mostly coming from the fact that IP holders just cannot let the character go because he is too popular. The same reason why studios bring back dead characters.
In case of MCU they are in a constant self perpetuating loop - a lot of success with the same characters -> trying to introduce new characters and they mostly don't land -> a lot of success with the same characters -> trying to introduce new characters and they mostly don't land. Rinse and repeat.
I am pretty sure that when asked who Batman is, most people, if not all, would say Bruce Wayne.
It matters for those who read it - most people don't read comics that much at all. And how many movie goers to MCU movies have even read the comics? A lot of countries did not even have comics in retail for years.
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ManaByte
Member
The THR article you linked to says this:
Read past a headline before posting a link.
Again, the 22 days of reshoots were to add Esposito to the movie while removing Seth Rollins. It was three scenes over those 22 days:
The opening scene in Mexico
Sidewinder ambushing Sam
Sam talking to Sidewinder at Norfolk.
They also cut like 20-30 min of plot from it to get it to two hours (the SAME thing happened to Thor 4 and Doctor Strange 2). Removing whole characters and plot lines.
In the original cut Sabra had powers and a suit (she has it under her jacket in the third act and you can see the blue/white Israeli coloring). She had a line where she explains her powers are a Mutation and she first noticed them as a teenager in Tel-Aviv. That whole plotline was cut, and they added ADR dialog to Falcon explaining that she trained in the Red Room and was a former Widow.
They also cut out Amadeus Cho, who like Sidewinder was meant to set up a future movie (WW Hulk). He was played by Logan Kim (Podcast in Ghostbusters: Afterlife and Frozen Empire), and apparently he was the scientist friend Sam's Navy SEAL buddy sent the pills to for analysis. The gamma in the pills would be what sparks his idea to replicate the Hulk and become a Hulk himself.
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ChuckeRearmed
Member
I think MCU had a good run with Disney for some time though. With SW it also had one good movie (not sure if cartoons were the part of Disney)
ManaByte
Member
Disney has owned Marvel since 2009. Literally the entire MCU except for Iron Man was produced under Disney.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
That's why I am saying that MCU had a good run Disney for some time - first three phases were good. Other than that some separate movies - like Wolverine - was also good. But MCU is nowhere near it used to be and Marvel is running everything into the ground these days. Let's see how F4 will perform.
Doom85
Member
The source material is the source material. Lack of familiarity with them is irrelevant, that’s like saying if they made a new video game based on the sci-fi show Firefly and the characters were in it were way out-of-character, that someone could be like, “well, the show had a cult following at most, so it doesn’t matter”. Disrespecting the original fans is NOT a good look.
Again, I highly doubt you’ve never brought up source material of an IP you care about. Source material matters, they flat out base many Marvel and DC movies on various runs.
“Most people” pre-2018 thought Aquaman was a useless loser because of the cartoon from the 70’s. Imagine if the DCEU had listened to your logic and never bothered giving him a movie because of that. I mean, no big loss, they only would have missed out on making easily their highest grossing DCEU film:
Aquaman
www.boxofficemojo.com
“Most people” pre-2014 did not know who the Guardians of the Galaxy were. And, once again:
Guardians of the Galaxy
www.boxofficemojo.com
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
www.boxofficemojo.com
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3
www.boxofficemojo.com
“Most people” pre-2018 would say they’re only familiar with Peter Parker as Spider-man. Your Honor, can we pull up the board one more time:
Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
www.boxofficemojo.com
Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse
www.boxofficemojo.com
Here’s a concept: maybe respect the original fans who always truly understood why and how these characters, concepts, and stories worked, and let’s stop putting this much stock into what the casual “most people” think.
skneogaf
Member
Just finished watching it, Sam Wilson is a regular human and has no place fighting super strength anything.
It was so stupid in the trailers and the full movie when he lands on his feet going faster than the speed of sound.
He's great as the falcon but that's it.
Also Harrison Ford can't act nowadays, he's far too old for these roles.
Mexican falcon actor Danny Ramirez is not interesting at all
5 out of 10
It was so stupid in the trailers and the full movie when he lands on his feet going faster than the speed of sound.
He's great as the falcon but that's it.
Also Harrison Ford can't act nowadays, he's far too old for these roles.
Mexican falcon actor Danny Ramirez is not interesting at all
5 out of 10
Neolombax
Member
Just came back from the cinema, i will say the movie started out pretty solid. And the action bits in the beginning was pretty good. The setup was kind of intriguing but midway it starts to become worse. The CGI was very bad in this movie, especially towards the end. What happened to the MCU?
Also I will add, although Red Hulk appears only for the finale, its nice to see a Hulk rampaging and not talking,making jokes and taking selfies. Unfortunately I also felt Anthony Mackie lacked the main character charisma, even when he was being serious.If I had to rate, I'd give it 5/10.
I dont like that Cap appears to be the President's lackey i mean, you want to save the ships from the rogue pilots, why do you need the president's go ahead? Just do it. Also, if the whatshisname can control people's thoughts, why not just let yourself out from the army base? Why wait until Cap is there? Also the mind control plot device was lazy I thought. And what was that final speech to the Hulk by Cap? Its like he was talking in front of a green screen, it looked so bizzare and amateurish.
Also I will add, although Red Hulk appears only for the finale, its nice to see a Hulk rampaging and not talking,making jokes and taking selfies. Unfortunately I also felt Anthony Mackie lacked the main character charisma, even when he was being serious.If I had to rate, I'd give it 5/10.
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ManaByte
Member
A CEO who wanted quantity over quality and a MCU producer who made every VFX house in the industry hate Marvel and deliver slop (both have been fired).
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Saber
Member
I honestly was expecting something like taking a serum or something like it to make him like a super human but no lol
And people still come with this "Captain America its just regular human too", maybe this movie is for them.
I honestly think its better than The Marvels, but good lord this isn't really a parameter for being a good thing. The Marvels is the epytome of rotting garbage for brainrot people. Nothing that was already said or predicted though.
skneogaf
Member
So much of the movie tries to justify Sam deserving to be captain america, it's all far too forced.
Hopefully he won't be as big a role in the future MCU, he wasn't even the main character in his own movie really.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
And the success of those movies - just like I said - had nothing to do with their source material. Would any of those movies GoTG a success standalone without being a part of MCU. People went to watch those movies because there were the part of MCU. Not because people loved GoTG (as you stated, nobody heard about them before).
The source material is the source material. Lack of familiarity with them is irrelevant, that’s like saying if they made a new video game based on the sci-fi show Firefly and the characters were in it were way out-of-character, that someone could be like, “well, the show had a cult following at most, so it doesn’t matter”. Disrespecting the original fans is NOT a good look.
Again, I highly doubt you’ve never brought up source material of an IP you care about. Source material matters, they flat out base many Marvel and DC movies on various runs.
“Most people” pre-2018 thought Aquaman was a useless loser because of the cartoon from the 70’s. Imagine if the DCEU had listened to your logic and never bothered giving him a movie because of that. I mean, no big loss, they only would have missed out on making easily their highest grossing DCEU film:
Aquaman
“Most people” pre-2014 did not know who the Guardians of the Galaxy were. And, once again:
Guardians of the Galaxy
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3
“Most people” pre-2018 would say they’re only familiar with Peter Parker as Spider-man. Your Honor, can we pull up the board one more time:
Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse
Here’s a concept: maybe respect the original fans who always truly understood why and how these characters, concepts, and stories worked, and let’s stop putting this much stock into what the casual “most people” think.
With SM situation is a bit different due to SM having a constant presence across wide medium including movies and cartoons and references in the games and stuff.
ManaByte
Member
He leads the Avengers in Doomsday and Secret Wars. Deal with it.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying it's a bad idea.
The Batman character is the result of a personal trauma that is not transferable to someone else. No matter how good that story arc is (Grant Morrison is a top writer, no surprises there) it's the concept that fails.
In the case of Captain America, it feels wrong that someone with an established look and set of skills suddenly "powers up" by adding the weapon of another established hero. I'd rather make a different character with some of the core attributes of Steve Rogers as the new captain.
skneogaf
Member
I read that unfortunately, I like him as an actor and the falcon so it's not going to ruin anything but it is never going to be as good as it can pushing for him to be the leader of the Avengers.
Fake
Member
I guess good actors and good writing make a difference.
ManaByte
Member
Dick Grayson watched his parents die in front of him just like Bruce Wayne.
Doom85
Member
Not to mention Bruce Wayne’s motivation is to make sure he does everything he can to prevent a tragedy like he experienced from ever happening again to the best of his ability. It’s wasn’t merely the result of the trauma, it was what he chose to do with that trauma.
He easily could have taken it in a far different, darker direction. As The Joker himself said, “all it takes is one bad day…..”
In fact, this is explored in the tie-ins in the Flashpoint story, where it’s revealed due to the changed timeline, Bruce was the one shot and killed on that fateful day, and Thomas Wayne became this timeline’s Batman, and Martha Wayne feel into grief and madness and become the Joker. Same trauma, different choices.
Also, it’s GOTHAM CITY, the idea that Bruce Wayne’s situation is unique and no one else could suffer a similar loss, or just feel motivated like he did in the same way purely by empathy and not tragedy, is objectively false.
Spyxos
Member
So he is still just a normal human fighting Hulk. I thought he would at least get some of the Superhuman serum, so that it doesn't get too silly. Yea, no thanks, I'll pass. I'd rather watch Thunderbolts then.
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Doom85
Member
You’d rather watch the movie where the heroes are even MORE outmatched against their opponent?
For clarification, the villain of Thunderbolts is:
The Sentry/Void (AKA Bob as seen in the first trailer). I’ve not read much comics with Sentry/Void, but to my understanding, he’s a good deal above any Hulk in power scaling.
ManaByte
Member
So you want to see a movie where a group of characters without superpowers fight Superman instead?
Spyxos
Member
I don't know anything about the Thunderbolts or their opponents. I liked the trailers. I didn't like Falcon and the Windersoldier series at all. And that looks just as bad. I finally wanted to go to the movies again and I was hoping that the movie would have something to offer.You’d rather watch the movie where the heroes are even MORE outmatched against their opponent?
For clarification, the villain of Thunderbolts is:
The Sentry/Void (AKA Bob as seen in the first trailer). I’ve not read much comics with Sentry/Void, but to my understanding, he’s a good deal above any Hulk in power scaling.
ManaByte
Member
You complained about a guy (in a super suit) fighting a Hulk and instead said you wanted to see a different movie where a group of characters without a super suit are fighting a villain 100x stronger than a Hulk.
Spyxos
Member
Why do you assume that everyone knows the characters? I know Falcon from the movies and the series. I had no idea who the opponent was or how strong he was in Thunderbolts. Nevertheless, I'll probably go to the movie because the trailers appealed to me.
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Biggest Trails Stan
Interesting that of the 6-7 articles, that was the ONLY one that said there was just one session of reshoots, yet THAT'S the article you take as gospel. Alllll the others, across YEARS, say there have been numerous reshoots. I put it in there to show that there is some confusion about this film's production, and no one, even the most positive, says its been a smooth ride. And what even counts as a reshoot these days? Most of the fight scenes are probably 95% cg, so "reshooting" those takes place in a server farm somewhere, not on the streets of Atlanta or a sound stage. The point isn't to quibble about how many re-shoots there were, but that the film was hacked and mangled beyond recognition, was helmed by a director waaaaaaaaaay out of his depth, was flawed at conception, and has been 'committee managed' into a pulp.
You clearly have some insider access, or just wait tables where marvel execs hang out and vent. But I don't think you necessarily put out 100% factual info and I don't think that this film ONLY had 22 days of reshoots nor that it ONLY cost 180 mill to make. It reeks of YEARS of tinkering, reshooting, cost over-runs, and editing nightmares.
I nominally agree with you on this, the source material is the bible and should trump "creative license" in most cases.
Buuuuuuuuuuut, for comics, particularly these marvel and DC ones, the source matierial is DECADES of stuff, almost all of it thrown together by multiple people under tight deadlines with no real concern for consistency, narrative focus, or character beyond some broad strokes. You can find almost ANYTHING about a character somewhere in the reams and reams of comics out there, almost all of it directly contradictory (hence all this multiverse silliness to try to beat it into a semi-coherent whole) so to say "it's in the source material" for comics is a nonsensical statement.
What the MCU is doing is playing Doctor Frankenstein by stitching together fragments of all these different comics into a man-like shape, hitting it with a massive jolt of marketing electricity, and then screeching "It's alive, It's ALIVE!!!!!" as the monster strolls away, or more often lately, dies on the table. Their technique CAN work, but it requires a deeper understanding of WHY these bits and bobs from across comics work. If you just page through the comics, find a reference you can then use to justify some rash decision for your film, its like a toxic memberberry or a rotten easter egg. It's not honoring the work, its exploiting it.
The sorts of IPs that can be better contrasted with their adaptations are things like novels from a singular source. Take the Dune novels, for example. I can use "the source" to pick apart shit from the Villeneuve or Lynch adaptations and it works because the novels came from a single person, the themes and ideas are largely consistent, and the body of work is small enough that it doesn't self contradict (you can go to the Brian Herbert stuff if you wanna do that). Same with Game of Thrones, Malazan, Wheel of Time, or other IPs that can get adapted to other mediums. Comics like these long running superheroes NEVER had that kind of development and can't be held up in the same way nearly as well. About all you can do is pick a specific run, say Miller's Dark Knight, and faithfully adapt the look, themes, and characterizations of JUST THAT RUN. Watchmen, same thing. And it's no wonder that if films do that, and hew close to that subset of "the source material", the end result is often much better because its a consistent experience with vetted narrative arcs and themes that resonate, not a stitched together hodgepodge of concepts that don't work together but can each be sourced to some random issue of a comic so folks like you can say "See, it's from the comics!!!!"
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