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[kevm3]

We will still sin even after being saved. Even a disciple denied Jesus 3 times. If you sin and repent, meaning turn away from the sin, then I believe the Spirit of God will remain with you. However, if you continue on in the sin, then you cast away God and invite demonic spirits into your presence.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Nah. I bet 99% that if there is a god, when you die you are given a choice to follow god and go to heaven, or to not and essentially go to hell.

Even if you were a serial killer. Even if you're hitler. It's the only way to be fair because a lot of people don't get the choice to believe in god while alive.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Could be. Every knee shall bow every tongue confess. But I think that the life you live determines wether you’re living in hell or paradise while you live and then at rest or left wandering til judgment after death.

 

[Breakage]

Serious question: where do you guys go to meet genuinely devout Catholic girls? Do they even exist in this day and age?

 

[Bluntman]

I'm a protestant Lutheran and I'll always be glad for my parents for it. It was such a nice way growing up with group of nice people, going to sunday schools and summer camps and whatever. To this day, when everyone became succesful in their own career we can count on eachother and get help from eachother.

Also our pastor, Peter, was the best man I've ever known. He died (RIP) at the age of 85 but in all his life he was building this great community in our town with his wife (who also devoted her life to this, and still putting in the good work). He had such a deep, thunderous voice from smoking pipe (and drinking some) that every worship in church left a deep effect on you.

You could go to him (I haven't had to fortunately) any time if you felt you were in a dark place. Even if you turned up at his house unannounced at 3am he would get out of bed and talk with you for hours. I personally know many people who can thank their life to him. They didn't stupid shit or worse, commit suicide and now they are happy, functioning, working people.

 

[the.acl]

I'm a protestant Lutheran and I'll always be glad for my parents for it. It was such a nice way growing up with group of nice people, going to sunday schools and summer camps and whatever. To this day, when everyone became succesful in their own career we can count on eachother and get help from eachother.

Also our pastor, Peter, was the best man I've ever known. He died (RIP) at the age of 85 but in all his life he was building this great community in our town with his wife (who also devoted her life to this, and still putting in the good work). He had such a deep, thunderous voice from smoking pipe (and drinking some) that every worship in church left a deep effect on you.

You could go to him (I haven't had to fortunately) any time if you felt you were in a dark place. Even if you turned up at his house unannounced at 3am he would get out of bed and talk with you for hours. I personally know many people who can thank their life to him. They didn't stupid shit or worse, commit suicide and now they are happy, functioning, working people.

He sounded like a very good and righteous man. God rest his soul.

 

[John Day]

I'm a protestant Lutheran and I'll always be glad for my parents for it. It was such a nice way growing up with group of nice people, going to sunday schools and summer camps and whatever. To this day, when everyone became succesful in their own career we can count on eachother and get help from eachother.

Also our pastor, Peter, was the best man I've ever known. He died (RIP) at the age of 85 but in all his life he was building this great community in our town with his wife (who also devoted her life to this, and still putting in the good work). He had such a deep, thunderous voice from smoking pipe (and drinking some) that every worship in church left a deep effect on you.

You could go to him (I haven't had to fortunately) any time if you felt you were in a dark place. Even if you turned up at his house unannounced at 3am he would get out of bed and talk with you for hours. I personally know many people who can thank their life to him. They didn't stupid shit or worse, commit suicide and now they are happy, functioning, working people.

I felt i couldn’t reply in this topic personally because of my changing beliefs over the years.

But i must say, this triggered memories in me of the church And community I grew up in (roman catholic, a close knit neighbourhood then). As many doubts I may have about religion at all, I am fully grateful to my parents and family for such upbringing. Me and my siblings grew to be people of good, not perfect, but of good.

Times have changed, we have all moved along and have grown a bit separated (not me and siblings, but friends of the community and local church), but the connection deep in our chests is still strong.

 

[Bolivar687]

Today is the Ascension of the Lord.

The eccliastical provinces celebrating today as a Holy Day of Obligation are: New York, Newark, Boston, Hartford, Philadelphia, or Omaha; OR you attend Mass in the EF or Anglican Ordinariate. Everyome else will commemorate it on Sunday. Every Catholic in those provinces should make an effort to make it to the Sacrifice of the Mass today. Check your parish website for Holy Day mass times.

The Gospel reading for the Ascension this year is the conclusion to St. Mark's Gospel.

 

[VAL0R]

Today is the Ascension of the Lord.

The eccliastical provinces celebrating today as a Holy Day of Obligation are: New York, Newark, Boston, Hartford, Philadelphia, or Omaha; OR you attend Mass in the EF or Anglican Ordinariate. Everyome else will commemorate it on Sunday. Every Catholic in those provinces should make an effort to make it to the Sacrifice of the Mass today. Check your parish website for Holy Day mass times.

The Gospel reading for the Ascension this year is the conclusion to St. Mark's Gospel.

Going tonight at 7:00 after work!

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Ok what’s this one? What’s the ascension of the lord?

 

[48086]

It's very strange seeing a Christianity [OT] on gaf.

looking forward to jumping into the discussion!

 

[the.acl]

Ok what’s this one? What’s the ascension of the lord?

Commemorating Christ's ascension into heaven.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Commemorating Christ's ascension into heaven.

Why today? Didn’t that happen after his resurrection?

 

[VAL0R]

Why today? Didn’t that happen after his resurrection?

Yes, we celebrated Easter on April 1st. Christ ascended into Heaven forty days after Easter. That's why we celebrate the feast of The Ascension on the fortieth day of the Easter season.

 

[the.acl]

Why today? Didn’t that happen after his resurrection?

40th day after Easter Sunday. Acts Chapter 1.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

40th day after Easter Sunday. Acts Chapter 1.

Ok I was thinking Luke 24. Acts seems to give more detail.

 

[zoechu]

GOOD JOB!

 

[VAL0R]

Historically I have not been a teary eyed emotional person by any means (my wife thinks I'm an emotionless robot half the time and she jokes that I have "no feelings.") So I don't know what my deal is recently. Maybe it's age, maybe something else, but I find myself getting unusually emotional around things that strike me as beautiful or inspirational, such as mass. I was actively trying to suppress tears last night sitting there with my family, all my precious children and my wife who I love, in God's Church, in peace, singing a beautiful hymn, thinking of what Christ has done for me and about sharing eternity with them, with him.

I wonder if I'm becoming a more sensitive person. I don't know if I like it, haha.

 

[appaws]

Serious question: where do you guys go to meet genuinely devout Catholic girls? Do they even exist in this day and age?

I guess by being involved in Church activities. Joining Knights of Columbus and seeing who has daughters (jk, kind of). There is Catholic Match, but I have never used it and can't say anything one way or the other.

Historically I have not been a teary eyed emotional person by any means (my wife thinks I'm an emotionless robot half the time and she jokes that I have "no feelings.") So I don't know what my deal is recently. Maybe it's age, maybe something else, but I find myself getting unusually emotional around things that strike me as beautiful or inspirational, such as mass. I was actively trying to suppress tears last night sitting there with my family, all my precious children and my wife who I love, in God's Church, in peace, singing a beautiful hymn, thinking of what Christ has done for me and about sharing eternity with them, with him.

I wonder if I'm becoming a more sensitive person. I don't know if I like it, haha.

That happens to me a lot. But I am the opposite of you, I guess. I'm an overly emotional Italian. Mass, Eucharistic adoration, even just praying the Rosary...sometimes I just feel so close to the Lord. Not always though, sometimes the world just has "got me" in its grasp and I can't let go of work or some personal problem or whatever.

I have to say that as far as masses go, I never had nearly the same "feels" at the Novus Ordo mass as I do now at the Tridentine mass. Maybe it is the chant, or the silent moments that add such solemnity to it all. Or the knowledge that you are involved in the same mass that all of the incredible saints of the past were involved in. It is powerful. I think we could convert a lot of Protestants back to mother church if they could experience the Tridentine mass.

 

[VAL0R]

Yes, I love the Latin mass, but the nearest one to me is about an hour drive. Thank God I have a fantastic saintly priest who does Novus Ordo beautifully. It is so reverent with chant and incense, etc. My oldest serves with him at the altar.

 

[VAL0R]

Can we get a list going of Christian GAF consoles/gamertags?


VALOR: X1X w/ Game Pass, Gamertag: VA1OR

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Hey guys. Looks like it’s been a bit since a post has been made. What do you make of Hebrews 1 regarding Christ being the Son of God and not God himself? Here is the text from Aramaic translated into plain English.

1From the first, in all parts and in all forms, God spoke with our fathers by The Prophets, 2And in these last days he has spoken with us by his Son, whom he ordained The Heir of all things, and by him he made the universe. 3For he is The Brilliance of his glory, The Image of his Being, and upholds all* things by the power of his word; and he in his Essential Being has accomplished the purification of our sins, and he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. * 4And This One is altogether greater than the Angels, according to how much more excellent than theirs is The Name* which he possesses.
5For to which one of the Angels did God* ever say, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you", and again, "I shall be to him The Father and he shall be to me the Son."?

6Again, when he brings The Firstborn into the universe, he says, "All the Angels of God shall worship him."

7But he spoke in this way about the Angels: "He makes his Angels the wind and his Ministers the burning fire."

8But concerning The Son, he said, "Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom."

9"You have loved righteousness and you have hated evil; because of this, God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of a joy beyond your companions."

10And again, "You have laid the foundation of The Earth from the beginning and the Heavens are the work of your hands."

11"Those shall pass away and you remain, and they all shall wear out like a robe,"

12"And you shall fold them up like a cloak; they shall be changed, and you are as you are*; your years shall not end."

13But to which of the Angels did he ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies as a footstool under your feet"?

14Behold, are they not all spirits of service, who are sent into service for the sake of those who are going to inherit life?

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

...by him he made the universe. For he is The Brilliance of his glory, The Image of his Being, and upholds all things by the power of his word

I mean, that's a classically high Christology, not a low one -- Christ as the glory / image / and Word of God, pre-existing even the foundation of the world. The author is distinguishing Christ from angels or other lesser beings of the heavenly host; some others, whom he is correcting, wanted to see Christ as a generic secondary deity rather than the emanation of God carrying His majesty / power / authority.

"Son of" also carried so much more weight at that time; saying for example that someone is a "son of righteousness" would mean that they embody it, belong to it, etc -- so the two titles of Jesus (son of Man, son of God) both say so much more than "descendant of", and indicate something a bit closer to "the realized embodiment of ..." instead.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Serious question: where do you guys go to meet genuinely devout Catholic girls? Do they even exist in this day and age?

Yes.

Visit the southwest for maximum success. Folks of Mexican heritage are almost 100% culturally Catholic.

 

[Insertia]

Question Christian GAF:

Lately God has been reaching out to me as I've gotten older. As God reaches out to me and makes my life better I can see the work of the Lord as I close my eyes. I see a white unattractive male pretending to be God and thinking because it is white it is above me. I had a dream and woke up hearing, "We're trying to connect to you. It(the white male) owes the world nothing."
This white male is jealous of me and wants to hurt me. Again I see it when I close my eyes.

Why is this white male interfering with Gods work in my life? Is this common when God reaches out to his followers.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I mean, that's a classically high Christology, not a low one -- Christ as the glory / image / and Word of God, pre-existing even the foundation of the world. The author is distinguishing Christ from angels or other lesser beings of the heavenly host; some others, whom he is correcting, wanted to see Christ as a generic secondary deity rather than the emanation of God carrying His majesty / power / authority.

"Son of" also carried so much more weight at that time; saying for example that someone is a "son of righteousness" would mean that they embody it, belong to it, etc -- so the two titles of Jesus (son of Man, son of God) both say so much more than "descendant of", and indicate something a bit closer to "the realized embodiment of ..." instead.

So did God anoint Himself? Is He his own God? And He sits at the right hand of Himself? God literally said this to Christ before creation

You are my Son; today I have begotten you", and again, "I shall be to him The Father and he shall be to me the Son."?

He wasn’t talking to himself

Question Christian GAF:

Lately God has been reaching out to me as I've gotten older. As God reaches out to me and makes my life better I can see the work of the Lord as I close my eyes. I see a white unattractive male pretending to be God and thinking because it is white it is above me. I had a dream and woke up hearing, "We're trying to connect to you. It(the white male) owes the world nothing."
This white male is jealous of me and wants to hurt me. Again I see it when I close my eyes.

Why is this white male interfering with Gods work in my life? Is this common when God reaches out to his followers.

Could be the same kind that masqueraded to Mohammad.

 

[Breakage]

Yes.

Visit the southwest for maximum success. Folks of Mexican heritage are almost 100% culturally Catholic.

Thanks for the tip, but I'm in the UK (London), and it is quite hard to find a good Catholic girl who actually lives her life according to the principles of the faith. I am not religious myself but my principles and values are much closer to the religious than the atheist hence why I asked.

 

[VAL0R]

So did God anoint Himself? Is He his own God? And He sits at the right hand of Himself? God literally said this to Christ before creation

You are my Son; today I have begotten you", and again, "I shall be to him The Father and he shall be to me the Son."?

He wasn’t talking to himself



Could be the same kind that masqueraded to Mohammad.

Again, you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Again, you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

I don’t understand Catholic doctrine because it’s nonsense. You’re like those people that Christ talked to where he spoke plainly but they still didn’t understand. It’s literally impossible to pull that Christ was God out of that passage. Does it not plainly say He(God)ordained His son heir of all things? Then you have the text you just quoted where God HIMSELF is saying I shall be to him the Father and to me he shall be the son, and YOU ARE MY SON I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU. This isn’t anyone else speaking. This is God HIMSELF.

I have to question whether Rome is trying to play God if they’re trying to change the understanding of scriptures.

 

[rokkerkory]

Finished my tattoo sleeve almost entirely religious piece

 

[Bolivar687]

I don’t understand Catholic doctrine because it’s nonsense. You’re like those people that Christ talked to where he spoke plainly but they still didn’t understand. It’s literally impossible to pull that Christ was God out of that passage. Does it not plainly say He(God)ordained His son heir of all things? Then you have the text you just quoted where God HIMSELF is saying I shall be to him the Father and to me he shall be the son, and YOU ARE MY SON I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU. This isn’t anyone else speaking. This is God HIMSELF.

I have to question whether Rome is trying to play God if they’re trying to change the understanding of scriptures.

Catholics worship the transcendant God who exists beyond physical reality. Our material brains do not have the cognitive tools to understand this entity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the best analogies we have to understand the different natures or manifestations of this one divine substance - the Lord, the creator and rightful authority of existence. The Father created us, provides for us, cares for us, gives us strict rules to make us better people, and wants to be in a relationship with us wherein we love Him, too. The second line of your Pauline quote above writes that the Father created the universe through the Son, which Catholics believe happened before all ages in our Creed. We also hold he was "begotten, not made," because he was generated from the Father, and not created, because all creation came through him. John calls this manifestation "the Logos," the preincarnate Jesus Christ, who "came down from heaven and became man," so that the world might be reconciled with the Father, which is a real and irreversible fact of human history. We hold that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and the New Testament provides that the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at Pentecost,(Acts 2) who then spread it to all of the early Christians through their teaching. In the Acts of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit is used interchangeably with God, whenever the divine truth of faith and morals are revealed to Peter.

This comes ultimately to the central problem with your theology: you can't accuse Rome of twisting and misunderstanding scripture because the Roman Church are the successors to the evangelists who wrote the scriptures, and the apostles, the men and women, who carried out Jesus' instructions, taught the truth of His divine ministry, and built the kingdom on earth which we now see today. The kingdom is not only the beautiful cathedrals and unparalleled creative achievements of the Catholic Church, but in its activities as the largest provider of education, health care, and overall human services both in the world today and throughout all of human history. The evangelists were either Jesus' disciples or their disciples and their successors were in turn the first Fathers and Doctors of the Church. Matthew was a disciple. Mark was writing down the sermons of Peter. John was also there and wrote his Gospel at the end of his life because he needed to spell out exactly what was going on with Jesus' ministry, because people were beginning to mistakenly believe erroneous doctrines, including some of the things you yourself are expressing now. Luke's Acts of the Apostles and the New Testament letters, especially those of John, constantly remind us that we can't understand this stuff on our own by interpreting the surface meaning of scripture according to our own preconceived biases. When Philip catechizes the Ethiopian/Nubian emissary in Acts, it's telling us that we need the magisterium, the followers of Jesus and the disciples they created in turn, to help us understand the Word (Acts 8:26-40). When the Greek orator Apollos learned a little bit about Christ and began preaching his own ideas, Priscilla had to take him to the side so she could correct him and explain the true meaning. (Acts 18:24-28). You cannot separate the New Testament from the magisterium.

You've debated me about this before, arguing Jesus did not create a priesthood or a religion, a popular belief among protestants and unbelievers, but this view is not reconcilable with the New Testament. In addition to commissioning his disciples to create new disciples and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:16-20 ) he also commissioned followers in his own lifetime to carry out priestly functions. (Luke 10). In the very first Gospel, Christ tells Peter he has been given the power to receive the truth of faith and morals directly from God and "upon this rock I will build my church," also giving him the authority to bind and loose, to forgive or retain sins. (Matthew 16:13-20). I previously quoted from John where he gave the poewr of forgiveness to the other disciples, which you refused to believe despite it being the well-settled truth of that passage. You once asked me if I was under the impression that the Catholic Church also exists in heaven. If you are a Christian who believes in the Gospel, you have to believe this is so. It's not that the Popes are always wonderful people incapable of lying, but that they have the unique ability to receive the truth of doctrine from God according to His will. This ability has Old Testament precedent, originally given to the Jewish High Priest, through the Urim and Thumm. (1 Samuel 14:41). John also notes that the High Priest of the Sanhedrin had the ability to receive prophecies through the sheer holding of his office, even if he himself was not necessarily a good person or able to understand it. (John 11:45-52). If you believe in the Father, and in His Son, then you can figure out for yourself who holds this office and has this ability today. I'm not trying to convert anyone and I can't imagine what nonbelievers might think reading this, but if you want to follow the Way, this is where it leads.

This is the best I could do to explain Christology and the magisterium to you. If you're still not convinced, then it's probably best we table this topic, unless you or anyone else has anything to add, because at this point it's just derailing our discussions of the larger topic of Christianity.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

The Catholic Church does not exist in heaven. Why would that even be true or make sense if the church that God is looking for isn’t made of human hands nor did the Catholic Church exist during the time of Moses or Abraham? Secondly, saying that Christ is not the Son of God would make God a liar. Do you really want to do that? Unwise. Thirdly, although God begat Christ before the world began, He was still born of a woman (rev 12 yet again)or should I say feminine spirit as physical bodies like ours don’t exist in God’s kingdom. My son is begotten of myself but he was still born of my wife. As far as derailing “your topic” from what the topic reads, this isn’t the OT of Catholicism. It’s Christianity. Now if you choose to ignore the knowledge I’m giving you then that’s your problem. Others may find it useful.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Thanks for the tip, but I'm in the UK (London), and it is quite hard to find a good Catholic girl who actually lives her life according to the principles of the faith. I am not religious myself but my principles and values are much closer to the religious than the atheist hence why I asked.

Woah.

Man...Christianity...not looking good in Europe. Might have to travel abroad a bit.

 

[appaws]

Again, you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

Nope. But he does not really want to understand. He has already decided on his own interpretation, and clearly he knows more than 2 millennia of scholars, saints, and believers.

I don’t understand Catholic doctrine because it’s nonsense. You’re like those people that Christ talked to where he spoke plainly but they still didn’t understand. It’s literally impossible to pull that Christ was God out of that passage. Does it not plainly say He(God)ordained His son heir of all things? Then you have the text you just quoted where God HIMSELF is saying I shall be to him the Father and to me he shall be the son, and YOU ARE MY SON I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU. This isn’t anyone else speaking. This is God HIMSELF.

I have to question whether Rome is trying to play God if they’re trying to change the understanding of scriptures.

On this trinity questions, it isn't just Catholics you are arguing with, it is all orthodox Christians. Even the Protestants, disagreeing with Rome on so many other things, do not disagree about this area.

Catholics worship the transcendant God who exists beyond physical reality. Our material brains do not have the cognitive tools to understand this entity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the best analogies we have to understand the different natures or manifestations of this one divine substance - the Lord, the creator and rightful authority of existence. The Father created us, provides for us, cares for us, gives us strict rules to make us better people, and wants to be in a relationship with us wherein we love Him, too. The second line of your Pauline quote above writes that the Father created the universe through the Son, which Catholics believe happened before all ages in our Creed. We also hold he was "begotten, not made," because he was generated from the Father, and not created, because all creation came through him. John calls this manifestation "the Logos," the preincarnate Jesus Christ, who "came down from heaven and became man," so that the world might be reconciled with the Father, which is a real and irreversible fact of human history. We hold that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and the New Testament provides that the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at Pentecost,(Acts 2) who then spread it to all of the early Christians through their teaching. In the Acts of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit is used interchangeably with God, whenever the divine truth of faith and morals are revealed to Peter.

This comes ultimately to the central problem with your theology: you can't accuse Rome of twisting and misunderstanding scripture because the Roman Church are the successors to the evangelists who wrote the scriptures, and the apostles, the men and women, who carried out Jesus' instructions, taught the truth of His divine ministry, and built the kingdom on earth which we now see today. The kingdom is not only the beautiful cathedrals and unparalleled creative achievements of the Catholic Church, but in its activities as the largest provider of education, health care, and overall human services both in the world today and throughout all of human history. The evangelists were either Jesus' disciples or their disciples and their successors were in turn the first Fathers and Doctors of the Church. Matthew was a disciple. Mark was writing down the sermons of Peter. John was also there and wrote his Gospel at the end of his life because he needed to spell out exactly what was going on with Jesus' ministry, because people were beginning to mistakenly believe erroneous doctrines, including some of the things you yourself are expressing now. Luke's Acts of the Apostles and the New Testament letters, especially those of John, constantly remind us that we can't understand this stuff on our own by interpreting the surface meaning of scripture according to our own preconceived biases. When Philip catechizes the Ethiopian/Nubian emissary in Acts, it's telling us that we need the magisterium, the followers of Jesus and the disciples they created in turn, to help us understand the Word (Acts 8:26-40). When the Greek orator Apollos learned a little bit about Christ and began preaching his own ideas, Priscilla had to take him to the side so she could correct him and explain the true meaning. (Acts 18:24-28). You cannot separate the New Testament from the magisterium.

You've debated me about this before, arguing Jesus did not create a priesthood or a religion, a popular belief among protestants and unbelievers, but this view is not reconcilable with the New Testament. In addition to commissioning his disciples to create new disciples and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:16-20 ) he also commissioned followers in his own lifetime to carry out priestly functions. (Luke 10). In the very first Gospel, Christ tells Peter he has been given the power to receive the truth of faith and morals directly from God and "upon this rock I will build my church," also giving him the authority to bind and loose, to forgive or retain sins. (Matthew 16:13-20). I previously quoted from John where he gave the poewr of forgiveness to the other disciples, which you refused to believe despite it being the well-settled truth of that passage. You once asked me if I was under the impression that the Catholic Church also exists in heaven. If you are a Christian who believes in the Gospel, you have to believe this is so. It's not that the Popes are always wonderful people incapable of lying, but that they have the unique ability to receive the truth of doctrine from God according to His will. This ability has Old Testament precedent, originally given to the Jewish High Priest, through the Urim and Thumm. (1 Samuel 14:41). John also notes that the High Priest of the Sanhedrin had the ability to receive prophecies through the sheer holding of his office, even if he himself was not necessarily a good person or able to understand it. (John 11:45-52). If you believe in the Father, and in His Son, then you can figure out for yourself who holds this office and has this ability today. I'm not trying to convert anyone and I can't imagine what nonbelievers might think reading this, but if you want to follow the Way, this is where it leads.

This is the best I could do to explain Christology and the magisterium to you. If you're still not convinced, then it's probably best we table this topic, unless you or anyone else has anything to add, because at this point it's just derailing our discussions of the larger topic of Christianity.

Outstanding post.

 

[Breakage]

Woah.

Man...Christianity...not looking good in Europe. Might have to travel abroad a bit.

Yeah, that would be an understatement. In Western Europe – at least – Christianity seems to be on the decline.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Nope. But he does not really want to understand. He has already decided on his own interpretation, and clearly he knows more than 2 millennia of scholars, saints, and believers.



On this trinity questions, it isn't just Catholics you are arguing with, it is all orthodox Christians. Even the Protestants, disagreeing with Rome on so many other things, do not disagree about this area.



Outstanding post.

Men following the knowledge of men doesn’t make them knowledgeable no matter how many millennia pass. You guys are literally saying when God spoke to people wether it be himself, thru Christ or thru the spirit, they still didn’t understand and it wasn’t until the Catholic Church that they were allowed to or could. That’s both absurd, ridiculous and borderline blasphemous. As far as understanding the trinity, the doctrine of the trinity was locked in place BY the Catholic Church. Congratulations on spreading 1600 some odd years of falsehood I guess? I’ll say this once more. If God himself says Christ is His son, and you’re saying that Christ is anything other than that, you’re calling God a liar. You know there’s scripture about that too right? If the Catholic Church were so great, people wouldn’t be leaving it as they are nor would it be constantly bearing bad fruit. Perhaps you should send papa Frankie or one of his goons to talk to me personally. They know where I am.

 

[Airola]

Secondly, saying that Christ is not the Son of God would make God a liar. Do you really want to do that? Unwise.

Who is saying this? The concept of Trinity consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. People who believe God is Triune have always been saying Christ is the Son of God.

You constantly showing lack of understanding of what people mean when they are talking about Trinity and you attacking on that false idea you have created on your own about their beliefs shows that you really shouldn't make accusations like this because you absolutely fall in the same group of people:

You’re like those people that Christ talked to where he spoke plainly but they still didn’t understand.

 

[Straight Edge]

As an ex catholic and current non believer watching you guys argue is fascinating. “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”, indeed.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Christ being the Son of God does not equal Christ being God. God existed before Christ did. The concept you speak of is very Catholic in origin and the only reason the other churches speak it is because they follow Rome and its many councils. When you ask them about it they can’t even give you a straight answer. So these men, with the Holy Spirit within them supposedly, the spirit of TRUTH, are unable to give answers that don’t lead to confusion? Do you not understand the problem with that? And no I wouldn’t fall into that same group because the Catholic Church is neither God nor is it Christ.

 

[Airola]

I’ll say this once more. If God himself says Christ is His son, and you’re saying that Christ is anything other than that, you’re calling God a liar..

And I'll say this once more:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

That's John 1:1
The very first thing in the New Testament. It can't be any clearer than that, that it is possible for the Word to both be with God and to be God.

Then comes John 1:14:
"The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Here it can't be any clearer than The Word refers to Jesus Christ, and that he is the Son.
In the beginning the Word, that is Jesus Christ, that is the Son, was both with God and was God.

I'm not a Catholic and I don't agree with all of the things Catholics believe, and I don't think it matters if you are a Catholic or a Protestant or an Orthodox to be saved, and I don't even believe you have to understand what the concept of Trinity is and I believe your beliefs about what the Trinity is doesn't matter either, but your understanding of how the concept of Trinity has been figured out from the Scriptures is not good. While it's ok that you don't understand it, it is not ok for you to attack a belief by making claims those who believe have never done.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

He was God as in he does what is instructed by his Father. If I tell you to do something, something that wasn’t even in your mind but now it is because I told you to do it and you do my will, Then who gets credit? Christ spoke of this many times. Doing what his Father told him, going to his Father, being sent from his Father. Again plain language that you fail to understand because you have no ears or are you just stiff necked? Another thing. When Christ left he said he’d send the comforter. Holy Spirit. So if they’re all the same, wouldn’t that just be Christ coming back again in a different form? Which would be the second coming? Not only is that out of order but it would also make Christ a liar because he’s not coming back until God sends him back. Not the Angels know, not the son, ONLY the Father. If Christ is God then he’d already know when his return would be.

 

[bad guy]

If Christ comes again, will he be an iPhone or android guy? I'm tipping iPhone because of the walled garden thing. But then again Apple is the forbidden fruit.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

If Christ comes again, will he be an iPhone or android guy? I'm tipping iPhone because it's a walled garden. But then again Apple is the forbidden fruit. ?

When Christ returns, just as all of this

The kingdom is not only the beautiful cathedrals and unparalleled creative achievements of the Catholic Church, but in its activities as the largest provider of education, health care, and overall human services both in the world today and throughout all of human history.

Will be destroyed, so will all phones. boasting of all these worldly “achievements” and not mentioning one soul being saved. That should be the FIRST thing on the list if you were spirit led.

 

[appaws]

Christ being the Son of God does not equal Christ being God. God existed before Christ did. The concept you speak of is very Catholic in origin and the only reason the other churches speak it is because they follow Rome and its many councils. When you ask them about it they can’t even give you a straight answer. So these men, with the Holy Spirit within them supposedly, the spirit of TRUTH, are unable to give answers that don’t lead to confusion? Do you not understand the problem with that? And no I wouldn’t fall into that same group because the Catholic Church is neither God nor is it Christ.

Actually, there is broad agreement among Christians, even of different sects who are in error about many other things. You are confused, the church is not.

just out of curiosity, what do you think of John 8:58....read in light of Exodus 3: 14-15...? Or of John 10:30....?

If Christ comes again, will he be an iPhone or android guy? I'm tipping iPhone because of the walled garden thing. But then again Apple is the forbidden fruit.

Apple. And a Bears fan, no doubt. Wasn't the forbidden fruit a pomegranate? I swear I heard that somewhere...?

 

[Bolivar687]

Men following the knowledge of men doesn’t make them knowledgeable no matter how many millennia pass.

What if those men were the original disciples of Jesus Christ and their successors?

You guys are literally saying when God spoke to people wether it be himself, thru Christ or thru the spirit, they still didn’t understand and it wasn’t until the Catholic Church that they were allowed to or could. That’s both absurd, ridiculous and borderline blasphemous.

The magisterium was created by Jesus Christ and assisted by the Holy Spirit. If you don't believe this is true, then you don't believe in the Gospel.

As far as understanding the trinity, the doctrine of the trinity was locked in place BY the Catholic Church.

It was locked in place by the apostles and the evangelists.

Congratulations on spreading 1600 some odd years of falsehood I guess? I’ll say this once more. If God himself says Christ is His son, and you’re saying that Christ is anything other than that, you’re calling God a liar. You know there’s scripture about that too right? If the Catholic Church were so great, people wouldn’t be leaving it as they are nor would it be constantly bearing bad fruit. Perhaps you should send papa Frankie or one of his goons to talk to me personally. They know where I am.

I think you're arguing in bad faith. You're saying we're calling God liar if we disagree with your own subjective and fringe interpretations of scripture. God calling Jesus his Son is consistent with orthodoxy because Jesus was generated and not created by the Father.

At the same time, you are calling John a liar for his express literal writings. If you want to argue "the Word was God" doesn't really mean the Word was God, then there's really no discussion we can have with you. The reason why John wrote his Gospel and began it like this is because people were making the same errors as you.

As an ex catholic and current non believer watching you guys argue is fascinating. “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”, indeed.

That phrase refers to debating minutiae in the shadow of larger questions. The nature of Jesus Christ is the most paramount of axioms in a discussion about Christianity.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, you can analyze his teachings and those of his disciples to learn what it all really means. If you don't, that's fine, but please don't insult us for wanting to get a better understanding of these mysteries.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Actually, there is broad agreement among Christians, even of different sects who are in error about many other things. You are confused, the church is not.

just out of curiosity, what do you think of John 8:58....read in light of Exodus 3: 14-15...? Or of John 10:30....?



Apple. And a Bears fan, no doubt. Wasn't the forbidden fruit a pomegranate? I swear I heard that somewhere...?

John 8:58 is simple. Christ was here during creation as all things were made through him. Of course he was before Abraham. He was before Adam as well. John 10:30 goes back to The Father, Son and Holy Spirit being in agreement, Exodus is clearly God speaking to Moses. Go back to John 8 and you get this

“Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:54-55‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[Phoenix RISING]

appaws AngularSaxophone ResurrectedContrarian

I found the sermon notes on the talk that I mentioned from two weeks prior. Perhaps I was unclear in its message. I can reproduce them here, now:

Exploring a God-given Identity

Sunday, May 6, 2018
How our Identity has been Challenged

This sermon series has sparked difficult conversations. What, indeed, do the oppressed owe their oppressors? Mercy? Vengeance? Love? The opportunity to continue oppression? We frame oppression as actions and structures that both create and promote a warped view of our identities as children of God. Our identities represent who we are. What we answer to. Who we consider ourselves to be.

As Christians, we are image bearers of the Most High-our Creator. We are recipients of God’s mercy and grace; redeemed, set apart, and called to bring restoration to God’s creation. We are adopted into God’s family and have spiritual authority. These are messages from God’s Word about who we are.

Other aspects of our identity are socially created. Sociologist Charles Cooley says “other people are the mirror in which we see ourselves.” In this world, our identities formed by the ways we encounter the 1 world, through the messages we receive from people we love and respect, including the church.

In the Bible, God highlights women’s lives and Jesus himself integrated women into his ministry. God enters into our oppression. We see this in how God intimately encounters Hagar in her slavery (Genesis 12), Jesus heals the bleeding woman deemed unclean by Jewish standards (Luke 8:43-48), shares the story of the widow who gave all she had as told by Mark (Mark 12:41-44). Women have also heard messages pulled from the Bible on submission, marriage, and gender expectations. As women, these narratives has been both empowering and detrimental to our identity formation.

What messages have you received about who you are, and who you are supposed to be? Who taught you and with what tools (reward, punishment)? What would you like to keep; what would you like to let go?

Picture a leader. Who do you see? What qualities do you admire in them? How do they look, are they tall, short, older, younger? What gender are they?

Exploring Women in Leadership
From creation, God did not set up a “masculine” rule as the standard rather, the Lord set up both expressions of being a man or woman as a reflection of God’s image. When God created woman in Genesis she was called Ezer kenegdo which is often translated “helpmate.” The intent and meaning is much deeper than this and reveals a different perspective of women.

Of the 21 times ezer occurs in the Old Testament, 16 of those refer to God delivering Israel from their oppressors. It’s a powerful reminder that in God creating woman, God’s identity as a deliverer, or even a warrior who fights on behalf of others, is used to describe the first woman.

*1 Cooley, C.H. 1902. Human Nature and the Social Order. New York: Scribner’s.

(page 2)
Exploring a God-given Identity

Sunday, May 6, 2018

We see this empowerment of women’s identities in the story of Deborah (Judges 4). Deborah was called a prophet and a judge in Israel. In this chapter, Deborah was not an advisor, or low-level official; Deborah governed the nation of Israel. Men and women honored Deborah, sought her counsel, listened to her wisdom, and respected her authority. How do we translate this to today?

God calls us to “bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners” (Isaiah 61). God does not specify who should do this, and does not categorize who is able based on gender.

Ways to Empower Women in Leadership
1) First, give honor to women and women who lead. Ex: Junia (Romans 16:7)
2) Notice how we respond to women in leadership
3) Recognize the space you take up

Finally, in honoring women as they lead: we can take them seriously, instead of finding a reason to dismiss or devalue them. We can listen to what they’re saying even when it clashes how we’ve been taught women should behave. Lastly, we continue to create space for women and those at the margins, because in their liberation, we find our own.

Releasing Women’s God-given Identity
We have received many messages and cultural ideas of who we are and how we should be. But God calls us to a higher identity than our human-made constructs. In order to cast off limiting social expectations and step into our God-given identities, we have to lean more into who God says we are than we do what society expects us to be.

We have discussed the tension of our identity in Christ as being both known and accepted by God, and being called to transformation. First, we are known. Before we were born we were known and set apart. Our God sees us, knows us, and hears us in our totality, not through any one characteristic, or identity.

Yet, we are called to transformation:
● We must decide if the messages we receive from the world develop our God-given identity, or a skewed version of who we are in Christ.
● Transformation also means asking which stories or perspectives are being excluded in our lives
● Transformation calls us to repentance. In repentance, we name these actions and thoughts that have pushed others to the side, turn away from them, and work with the Holy Spirit to identify ways we can take part in God’s work of restoration and reconciliation.

Lastly, it means continuing these conversations. Our church community is diverse-- we are multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, and multi-generational. There are narratives and stories that must be told in order for us to truly understand who we are in Christ, and the ways we can move towards transformation and liberation together.

Now take this, with what I said before...my immediate response is to reject the idea of masculine rule as non-standard. Christianity, like most religions, is highly patriarchal. I do not perceive women in leadership as necessarily forbidden, but I do see that when women dominate in leadership, as the consequence of a fallen world where men have failed to lead.

Supplementary scripture:

Verses Affirming Our God-Given Identity

Start with meditating on Psalm 139

Verses to remind you who you are:

● Romans 8:14-17
○ 14) All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons and daughters. 15) You didn’t receive a
spirit of slavery to lead you back again into fear, but you received a Spirit that shows you are
adopted as his children. With this Spirit, we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16)The same Spirit agrees
with our spirit, that we are God’s children. 17)But if we are children, we are also heirs. We are
God’s heirs and fellow heirs with Christ, if we really suffer with him so that we can also be
glorified with him.

● 1 Peter 2:9
○ But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people who are God’s own
possession. You have become this people so that you may speak of the wonderful acts of the
one who called you out of darkness into his amazing light.

● 2 Corinthians 5:17
○ So then, if anyone is in Christ, that person is part of the new creation. The old things have
gone away, and look, new things have arrived!

● 1 Thessalonians 5:5
○ For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the
darkness.

● Philippians 3:12-14
○ 7) But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8) What is more,
I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord,
for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9) and be
found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which
is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10) I
want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his
sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11) and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection
from the dead. 12) Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to
make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13) Brothers and sisters, I do not
consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and
straining forward to what lies ahead, 14) I press on toward the goal for the prize of the
upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

● Galatians 3:28
Rachel Terrell-Perica
Danyelle Reynolds
○ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for
you are all one in Christ Jesus.

When the devil lies remember:

● Isaiah 54:17
○ “No weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that
rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their
vindication from me, declares the Lord.”

● James 4:7
○ Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

● Ephesians 6:10-18.
○ 10) Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11) Put on the whole armor
of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12) For we do not
wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the
cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly
places.13) Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the
evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14) Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of
truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15) and, as shoes for your feet,
having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16) In all circumstances take up the
shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17) and
take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18)
praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with
all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints.

● 1 John 5:18
○ We know that everyone born from God does not sin, but the ones born from God guard
themselves, and the evil one cannot touch them.

● Isaiah 43:1-7
○ 1) But now thus says the LORD , he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. 2) When you
pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm
you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume
you. 3) For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your
ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you. 4) Because you are precious in my eyes, and
honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you, peoples in exchange for your life. 5)
Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will
gather you. 6) I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold; bring my
sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, 7) everyone who is called by my
name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

What if those men were the original disciples of Jesus Christ and their successors?



The magisterium was created by Jesus Christ and assisted by the Holy Spirit. If you don't believe this is true, then you don't believe in the Gospel.



It was locked in place by the apostles and the evangelists.



I think you're arguing in bad faith. You're saying we're calling God liar if we disagree with your own subjective and fringe interpretations of scripture. God calling Jesus his Son is consistent with orthodoxy because Jesus was generated and not created by the Father.

At the same time, you are calling John a liar for his express literal writings. If you want to argue "the Word was God" doesn't really mean the Word was God, then there's really no discussion we can have with you. The reason why John wrote his Gospel and began it like this is because people were making the same errors as you.



That phrase refers to debating minutiae in the shadow of larger questions. The nature of Jesus Christ is the most paramount of axioms in a discussion about Christianity.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, you can analyze his teachings and those of his disciples to learn what it all really means. If you don't, that's fine, but please don't insult us for wanting to get a better understanding of these mysteries.

The magisterium was not created by Christ and the Gospel is preaching that Christ is the Son of God and that he came to die for our sins and that he conquered death. Not sure what that has to do with the Catholic Church. Are you taking credit for what Christ did?

As far a the trinity being locked in place, that was 300 some years after Christ came. So you’re saying it took 300 years for them to figure that out after Christ came? As far as arguing in bad faith, I’m reading scripture exactly as it’s worded and using discernment to extract truth. If you’re going to tell me that the ones who wrote it had no idea what they were talking about and it has to be translated by the Catholic Church alone for people to understand it then again you’re playing god and that’s absolutely ridiculous.

 

[appaws]

John 8:58 is simple. Christ was here during creation as all things were made through him. Of course he was before Abraham. He was before Adam as well. John 10:30 goes back to The Father, Son and Holy Spirit being in agreement, Exodus is clearly God speaking to Moses. Go back to John 8 and you get this

“Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:54-55‬ ‭NIV‬‬

You are really missing the point (on purpose, I would guess.) Christ uses the same "I AM" construction that Yaweh uses with Moses. That was not a coincidence.

 

[Bolivar687]

The magisterium was not created by Christ and the Gospel is preaching that Christ is the Son of God and that he came to die for our sins. Not sure what that has to do with the Catholic Church. Are you taking credit for what Christ did?

As far a the trinity being locked in place, that was 300 some years after Christ came. So you’re saying it took 300 years for them to figure that out after Christ came? As far as arguing in bad faith, I’m reading scripture exactly as it’s worded and using discernment to extract truth. If you’re going to tell me that the ones who wrote it had no idea what they were talking about and it has to be translated by the church for people to understand it then again you’re playing god and that’s absolutely ridiculous.

I've already given you the citations for Christ creating the papacy, papal infallibility, the Old Testament precedent thereof, and commissioning the disciples to carry out priestly functions. John says the Son is God, Luke says the Holy Spirit is God, and Matthew ends with Jesus instructing his disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I don't know where you're getting 300 years from - this is what Christ and his disciples taught, what their students taught, carried through by apostolic succession, to what the Catholic Church teaches today. The apostles themseves ordained their students as the first bishops of the Catholic Church. There is no gap, the magisterium did not begin in 300 AD, it began in the lifetime of Jesus Christ. I've given you the citations demonstrating this and I just can't and won't keep arguing in circles with you.

You can't tell us "I'm reading scripture exactly as it's worded" if you refuse to accept "the Word was God" means the Word was God. There really is no path of discourse for us where we can get beyond that.