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[AngularSaxophone]

The Catholic Church doesn’t even baptize people correctly. What use is baptizing an infant for one and for two what’s with the sprinkling? You don’t get “sprinkled” with the Holy Spirit, it’s poured upon you. You all can think whatever you want. As far as I’m concerned the Catholic Church is no different than the jehovahs witnesses and is responsible for leading many away from Christ instead of toward him. I sincerely hope that Brother Francis allows the spirit to speak to him and released your church from its chains of deception.

Since according to you I’m unable to understand these things on my own, can you please help me understand what’s going on here? Who is Christ talking to when he looks up? Why’s he need to talk to himself? Why does Martha call him the son of God?

“Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.””
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-27, 40-42‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

Other aspects of our identity are socially created. Sociologist Charles Cooley says “other people are the mirror in which we see ourselves.” In this world, our identities formed by the ways we encounter the 1 world, through the messages we receive from people we love and respect, including the church.

We have received many messages and cultural ideas of who we are and how we should be. But God calls us to a higher identity than our human-made constructs. In order to cast off limiting social expectations and step into our God-given identities, we have to lean more into who God says we are than we do what society expects us to be.

... Our God sees us, knows us, and hears us in our totality, not through any one characteristic, or identity.

This is roughly what I expected to see, and it helps to pinpoint what I find to be the incorrect background assumptions.

The above passages draw a marked separation between what is externally determined of a person (our gender - which while inner, is host to various externally imposed symbols and meanings; the home in which we were born; the people who we know / are known by under specific relational roles like mother, daughter, father, sister; etc) and what is some inner spark of God (each called by name to God, somehow beyond anything definite about us, beyond all our relations). That is very congruent with the surrounding culture's ideology -- in which we are never defined by or exhausted by our definite attributes or relationships, so that these names and roles are always limiting us in some way -- but it doesn't reflect a robustly Christian reading of personhood.

Many of today's heated disputes between progressive / liberal (re)readings of Christianity and classic or orthodox interpretations come down to this topic of personal identity and belonging -- and the interference of cultural noise in a highly individualist era is the main culprit. But Christianity is just as radically anti-individualist (by which I mean that it strongly opposes the notion that your "identity" is your inner personal possession and secret, apart from your defined relations to others) as it is radically demanding that each person bears God's image and dignity, even if that combination sounds like a contradiction to our ears today.

I'd put it this way, in response: the guiding picture of our completion as bearers of God's image is not a radical liberation from the expectations of others, nor an individualized fulfillment of some inner spark beyond the roles we have in our life, but is on the contrary represented by radically offering ourselves as a gift to the others in our life. To lay down your life in fidelity to the people to whom you have been given, and the position in which you have been placed, is the highest Christian expression of gratitude -- Christ gives himself on the cross in act of love by *not* resisting the unfair situation in which He was placed... in this He showed power, and overthrew the powers of the day, but precisely by not taking the route of resisting that which was placed upon Him, but bearing it in infinite compassion. Likewise, the picture of final consummation at the end of scripture is a marriage between God & mankind, in which the Church serves as the bride; and the various pastoral instructions in the New Testament are all centered upon recognizing what has been given to you in your current place, role, position, and gifts, and harmonizing those for God's glory, but never overthrowing them as some barrier to self-expression.

That's not to say that there isn't also another kind of language given by Christ and the NT, which points towards a vocation for the celibate, for those who leave family behind, etcetera -- although those vocations are like images of the Kingdom, and are never to be understood as loosening ourselves from human expectations towards more self-determination, but on the contrary, consist of giving oneself even more wholly to God, which few can attain. This is the reading that eg. Oliver O'Donovan gives of the 2 directions of the resurrection: one part redeems creation, and shows a better, more beautiful way to inhabit & recognize the good in the orders and roles we have in our world; the second points towards the Kingdom as a perfect consummation, and is a symbolic path open to those who take up a vocation to the Church, becoming a bride of God in some separation from their earthly stations. But the latter is a radical symbol for the few, and the main current of the resurrection is that we all recognize the good of rebirth in the mundane things and stations all around us, not attempting to overthrow determinate roles, positions, and names as only baggage atop some individual self-realization.

Rambled, but hopefully that is coherent.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I’ll pose another viewpoint or ask another question. So within Christ, could it be said that it was both his spirit(the water)and the spirit of God(the blood)within him at the same time? With God speaking directly through Christ at times yet Christ still dwelling within the same body? When it’s said that the Holy Spirit dwells within, I take that as the spirit that Christ was given upon his baptism. So within myself there’s my spirit along with the Holy Spirit guiding me to do God’s will instead of my own, just as God dwelled within Christ to perform His will hence both the blood and water spilling from his side when he was pierced at the crucifixion?

 

[VAL0R]

A Muslim convert to Christianity discusses the Trinity and the deity of Christ in the clip. AngularSaxophone , please watch this and pay special attention to the section where he mentions how OT references to God alone are explicitly applied to Jesus in the NT.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

So why’d he bleed both blood and water?

 

[crobb991]

I may have dabbled in Christianity in my youth and found myself rebelling pretty quickly.

Not for any particular reason I just didn't feel it gave me anything

 

[AngularSaxophone]

5Who is he who conquers the universe but he who believes that Yeshua is The Son of God? 6This is he who came by water and blood, Yeshua The Messiah; it was not by water only, but by water and blood. 7And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth. 8And there are three testifying: The Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three of them are in one.

9If we receive the testimony of men, how much greater is the testimony of God? And this is the testimony of God which he testifies about his Son: 10Everyone who believes in The Son of God has this witness in his soul. Everyone who does not believe God makes him a liar because he does not believe the testimony that God testifies concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us Eternal Life, and that life is in his Son. 12Everyone who lays hold of The Son lays hold also of The Life, and everyone who does not lay hold of The Son of God does not have The Life in him.

 

[appaws]

I may have dabbled in Christianity in my youth and found myself rebelling pretty quickly.

Not for any particular reason I just didn't feel it gave me anything

How old are you now?

And what were you expecting it to give you?

 

[Airola]

5Who is he who conquers the universe but he who believes that Yeshua is The Son of God? 6This is he who came by water and blood, Yeshua The Messiah; it was not by water only, but by water and blood. 7And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth. 8And there are three testifying: The Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three of them are in one.

9If we receive the testimony of men, how much greater is the testimony of God? And this is the testimony of God which he testifies about his Son: 10Everyone who believes in The Son of God has this witness in his soul. Everyone who does not believe God makes him a liar because he does not believe the testimony that God testifies concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us Eternal Life, and that life is in his Son. 12Everyone who lays hold of The Son lays hold also of The Life, and everyone who does not lay hold of The Son of God does not have The Life in him.

What is it with you constantly bringing up that Jesus is the Son of God?
The people you are trying to argue with agree with that already.
They say God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Three parts, three persons, one being.

It's as if you think people who believe this would be surprised when you tell them how Jesus talked to the Father or when Martha said Jesus is the Son of God.
They already know all of that! And that doesn't make the concept of Trinity any less valid. Instead Trinity is a concept that perfectly explains how Jesus would refer himself as I AM and how John would say Word was with God and Word was God while at the same time saying he is the Son of God and all the mentions of the Holy Spirit and the Father. The Spirit, the water, the blood. The way, the truth, the life.

These people have already went through all of the passages you show that supposedly should disprove that concept of Trinity.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

You guys pick two debatable verses in the Bible out of more than a few others to prove that Christ was God. He wasn’t God. The spirit of God was in there with him at times but Christ is still Christ. When Christ was baptized God said from above this is my son in who I am well pleased. At that moment, God was above and Christ was here. Same as on the cross. Your blood. Your dna. Can’t it be said that you are in your father and your father is in you because you were born of your parents? He didn’t have the blood of Mary.

 

[crobb991]

How old are you now?

And what were you expecting it to give you?

I'm 28 now... I thought something would change and it would make my life better...

Came from a religious background and all I felt was that I was putting in more than was coming back

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I'm 28 now... I thought something would change and it would make my life better...

Came from a religious background and all I felt was that I was putting in more than was coming back

You don’t think Christ gave enough for us? Think about this. He gave so much that salvation has been upon the world for 2000 some odd years and it’s still here. It was here before any of us were. He didn’t have to come here, dwelt among people like you and I and was ultimately spit on, beaten and crucified for those that were and those that were to come. Love that transcends time. No one else will give like God did for us in sending His son. All the love and pleasures of this world we know of for the most part are trash.

To the others, why would God need to make Christ heir of all things if Christ is already God? So he’s handing over the throne to Himself? Name me one other king in the history of the world that handed the throne down to himself. Putin doesn’t count.

 

[Airola]

When Christ was baptized God said from above this is my son in who I am well pleased. At that moment, God was above and Christ was here. Same as on the cross.

Trinity is exactly the thing that explains this. The concept of Trinity was figured out to explain how Jesus can both talk to the Father yet claim "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
The best explanation to that kind of seemingly contradictious thing was that God is one being with several persons. That way all of those persons can do things distinct to their persons and be in "different places" while still being part of the same being.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Trinity is exactly the thing that explains this. The concept of Trinity was figured out to explain how Jesus can both talk to the Father yet claim "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
The best explanation to that kind of seemingly contradictious thing was that God is one being with several persons. That way all of those persons can do things distinct to their persons and be in "different places" while still being part of the same being.

One meaning IN AGREEMENT. Does a choir not sing as one even though there may be a lead singer? The mind of God is holy and everything from the Father was placed upon the Son.

 

[appaws]

I'm 28 now... I thought something would change and it would make my life better...

Came from a religious background and all I felt was that I was putting in more than was coming back

I would tell you that you will get infinity back from God. But that is not even the issue. In a real sense, the issue of Christianity is a historical claim, the claim that Jesus Christ was God (despite Sax), took human form, died and was resurected. It is a question of believing that or not. You believed it then, but apparently now you don't. Something changed your mind, something more than a balance sheet of what you were "putting in" and "getting back."

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I would tell you that you will get infinity back from God. But that is not even the issue. In a real sense, the issue of Christianity is a historical claim, the claim that Jesus Christ was God (despite Sax), took human form, died and was resurected. It is a question of believing that or not. You believed it then, but apparently now you don't. Something changed your mind, something more than a balance sheet of what you were "putting in" and "getting back."

So again you deny Christ as the Son of God. where are the roosters? Is God greater or lesser than the angels? Christ was made lesser than the angels. God wasn’t. And despite your claims Catholicism DOES NOT equal Christianity. Not many others can be held responsible for dividing the house with nonsense. Who the hell builds gothic buildings for the Holy Spirit to dwell in? Who says if you pay more money more sins can be forgiven? What does one need rosary beads for when we can pray for things in the same of Christ alone? I don’t recall Christ fashioning and giving rosary prayer instructions to his disciples.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

Christ was made lesser than the angels. God wasn’t.

The proper theological term here is "kenosis," which refers to the way in which God "emptied Himself" by taking on human flesh. This is the meaning of Christ being lower than the angels and yet still one part of the only God; the central Christian belief is indeed that God's intentional act of emptying and humbling himself into our own lowly flesh was a great act of grace.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

But that would completely void the purpose of Him sending His son. He didn’t send himself. He sent his only Son who was begotten of Him. Anyway I’m not going to argue it anymore. There’s enough information here for those seeking understanding to digest. God is WHOLLY apart from sin. That’s why Christ was necessary. If you can’t understand that then you’d be among those who believe the Holy Spirit can be in someone while they’re raping a person.

 

[luigimario]

This is a question for american christians, though I guess it can be applied to all religious people.

How do you reconcile your right wing political views, with the teachings of Jesus? Who was probably as left wing as they come....

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

This is a question for american christians, though I guess it can be applied to all religious people.

How do you reconcile your right wing political views, with the teachings of Jesus? Who was probably as left wing as they come....

Applying the term "Left wing" from today's politics to Jesus is an enormous historical error.

I think you're trying to be combative, but you'll need to set this up by specifying particular issues & conflicts between what you read Jesus as teaching and what you suspect his followers of believing.

 

[Airola]

This is a question for american christians, though I guess it can be applied to all religious people.

How do you reconcile your right wing political views, with the teachings of Jesus? Who was probably as left wing as they come....

That's a common misconception about Jesus.
People often want to point out that Jesus stopped people from stoning the adulterer but they gladly ignore him then telling "go and sin no more."
Even though you can connect some of his views as "left wing", some of his views were very much "right wing", especially his views about sexuality.

Maybe he was an extreme centrist

 

[luigimario]

Applying the term "Left wing" from today's politics to Jesus is an enormous historical error.

I think you're trying to be combative, but you'll need to set this up by specifying particular issues & conflicts between what you read Jesus as teaching and what you suspect his followers of believing.

Sorry I didn't mean to cause offense, and if I did, it definitley wasn't my intention.

I think one clear example is that Jesus championed the poor, whereas modern right wing politics demonise them. That's a clear disconnect no?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

"In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment. ... "

— Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians

So if there’s no lie within the Holy Spirit, and no error within God, I guess neither was present with Constantine that day since he was wrong.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

(Disclaimer up front: I'm not a Republican myself, though I'm very much not a Democrat either -- I don't really have a political home in the US, and I despise both of our existing parties. But I am "conservative" in some sense of that word, particularly on social issues.)

I think one clear example is that Jesus championed the poor, whereas modern right wing politics demonise them. That's a clear disconnect no?

There are a lot of things to distinguish here. First, those who truly demonize the poor (despise them, mock them for being poor) are at most going to be "cultural" Christians, just as there are cultural Catholics on the far Left who hold other views that go directly against Jesus's explicit teachings on marriage etc. I say this because you can't be a faithful follower of Christ and despise the poor, and even the most theologically conservative churches teach you to care for the poor.

However -- you can absolutely be a faithful follower, caring for the poor's situation and serving them in various ways, and yet still ardently oppose most State-led approaches to social welfare on principle -- and this is where most conservative Christians who are devout end up. Why? There are a variety of reasons, but in short, the idea is that the way a nation-state remedies poverty and social fragmentation (broken homes, etc) only further atomizes people and turns us all into independent wardens of a centralized management and substitute parent in the State. The Christian vision of care is based more on the neighbor, community, and very much on the closeness of family and church -- so the neo-liberal social welfare compromise (which says: be self-centered and live for yourself alone, but we'll add social programs on top) is seen to work only towards destroying the natural and local bonds that can make us belong to one another. In other words, welfare takes the problem of your immediate neighbors (including your given family, etc) and lets you push it far away, taking away the guilt of living in a self-centric way by reassuring you that those others will be cared for by the state -- but Christianity says, the person nearest to you is the one you lay down your life for, which means people like your spouse, your church family, or your aging parents, and to managerially outsource that central responsibly from each of us is inherently destructive of the common good.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

I should add that theologically-conservative Christians have historically created many social services, from hospitals to schools, and often have supported various State-led initiatives. But today many are rightly troubled by the way social services are used to re-engineer society on an individualist model rather to than heal communities and build strong families (see: the principle of subsidiarity).

 

[appaws]

So again you deny Christ as the Son of God. where are the roosters? Is God greater or lesser than the angels? Christ was made lesser than the angels. God wasn’t. And despite your claims Catholicism DOES NOT equal Christianity. Not many others can be held responsible for dividing the house with nonsense. Who the hell builds gothic buildings for the Holy Spirit to dwell in? Who says if you pay more money more sins can be forgiven? What does one need rosary beads for when we can pray for things in the same of Christ alone? I don’t recall Christ fashioning and giving rosary prayer instructions to his disciples.

Stop being ridiculous, you know what our doctrine is....it has been explained to you several times already by others in this very thread. As for rosaries and paying for forgiveness, there is that straw man again. I'm responding to that other poster, with orthodox Christian doctrine. Deal with it.

This is a question for american christians, though I guess it can be applied to all religious people.

How do you reconcile your right wing political views, with the teachings of Jesus? Who was probably as left wing as they come....

Dude, you can't apply modern ideological constructs to first-century Palestine. Or to a being of perfect knowledge and benevolence, for that matter.

I should add that theologically-conservative Christians have historically created many social services, from hospitals to schools, and often have supported various State-led initiatives. But today many are rightly troubled by the way social services are used to re-engineer society on an individualist model rather to than heal communities and build strong families (see: the principle of subsidiarity).

The Church is the biggest provider of charity of the world. Another sign of God's blessing. And we should always try to do more, for the love of Christ.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Catholicism, WOW. So convenient that you guys pick and choose which questions you want to answer as long as it can be tied to one of two verses. Not my doctrine so nothing for me to deal with regarding it other than disagreeing with it and pointing to scripture as to why it’s wrong.

 

[Bolivar687]

This is a question for american christians, though I guess it can be applied to all religious people.

How do you reconcile your right wing political views, with the teachings of Jesus? Who was probably as left wing as they come....

Christianity suggests it's impossible and even misguided for us to offload our responsibility to our neighbors onto the state.

In a way, Christianity is a radically apolitical ideology. Whereas the Old Testament was essentially a rulebook for how to run a government, the New Testament is virtually entirely concerned with the Way of living within your community. The sum of the relationship between the Christian and the state is expressed in Matthew 22:21 - "give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” The implication is that the state will inevitably demand things from each of us which do not rightfully belong to it. The depiction of the government in the New Testament, at best, is that of an unavoidable evil of the human condition.

The same could be said about poverty. Jesus counseled his disciples, "the poor you will always have with you." (Matthew 26:11). If poverty could be eliminated through state policy, surely someone over the thousands of years of civilization would have figured it out, at least in the hundreds of years since the industrial revolution, or after various scarcity hypotheses have been proven to be false.

I'm only speaking for myself but our recent history in America seems to validate this view. It seems inarguable at this point that Lyndon Johnson's Great Society, War on Poverty, and Civil Rights reforms have made the problems of inequality and social inelasticity worse than they were at the outset. Our most recent innovation, Ban the Box legislation, has made it harder for ex-offenders and minorities to get jobs, sometimes increasing inequality of outcome sixfold.

The more and more I look into this issue, the clearer it becomes that these are largely morally-driven problems, with family stability having the most bulletproof correlation to social outcomes, even across countries. And you can't legislate better morals.

For what it's worth, many of the most conservative evangelicals are the most committed to solving problems like AIDS and water scarcity in Africa.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

By the way, where’d all the Hebrew Catholics go? Seems odd.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Seems this takes place within that 40 days before Christ returned to heaven. Even they knew he was sent of the Father. OH HAY GUISE

But Bartholomew was troubled and fell at Jesus' feet and began to speak thus: O lamp that cannot be quenched, Lord Jesu Christ, maker of the eternal light that hast given unto them that love thee the grace that beautifieth all, and hast given us the eternal light by thy coming into the world, that hast accomplished the work of the Father, hast turned the shame-facedness of Adam into mirth, hast done away the sorrow of Eve with a cheerful countenance by thy birth from a virgin: remember not evil against me but grant me the word of mine asking. (Lat. 2, who didst come down into the world, who hast confirmed the eternal word of the Father, who hast called the sadness of joy, who hast made the shame of Eve glad, and restored her by vouchsafing to be contained in the womb.)

Were not all things made by my word, and by the will of my Father the spirits were made subject unto Solomon? 🗣

 

[AngularSaxophone]

So no one knows what the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is but it’s mentioned in Bartholomew

1 Bartholomew saith unto him: Declare unto us, Lord what sin is heavier than all sins? 2 Jesus saith unto him: Verily I say unto thee that hypocrisy and backbiting is heavier than all sins: for because of them, the prophet said in the psalm, that 'the ungodly shall not rise in the judgement, neither sinners in the council of the righteous', neither the ungodly in the judgement of my Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that every sin shall be forgiven unto every man, but the sin against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven. 3 And Bartholomew saith unto him: What is the sin against the Holy Ghost? 4 Jesus saith unto him: Whosoever shall decree against any man that hath served my holy Father hath blasphemed against the Holy Ghost: For every man that serveth God worshipfully is worthy of the Holy Ghost, and he that speaketh anything evil against him shall not be forgiven.

 

[Dice]

So you're saying... God made us. God made communication. God made our understanding of and relationship with him dependent upon understanding communication. God hand picked men to communicate and pass on the message to effect salvation of countless people from every tongue and tribe and nation in the world. God poured out his Holy Spirit upon the earth to grant life to the dead and guide men in truth, supernaturally assisting them in these purposes.... Yet God either somehow failed at crafting or communicating a message that would properly last or be understood and discerned from fabrications, failed to choose the right men who would rightly pass it on, failed to continue guiding them with the Holy Spirit to overcome evils conspiring against their efforts, or simply, for whatever reason, after giving his son to die for this redemptive purpose... willfully allowed it get so screwed up that the overwhelming vast majority of people are getting it wildly wrong and only a small handful such as yourself have it right?

 

[VAL0R]

AngularSaxophone , What do we care what some non-biblical pseudo-scripture like "Questions of Bartholomew" has to say about doctrine? No one recognizes this book as scripture, except possibly a meager handful the fringiest of fringe oddballs. When you pull your beliefs from all sorts of extra-biblical sources that you compile for yourself it's no wonder your theology is a complete heretical train wreck.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

So you're saying... God made us. God made communication. God made our understanding of and relationship with him dependent upon understanding communication. God hand picked men to communicate and pass on the message to effect salvation of countless people from every tongue and tribe and nation in the world. God poured out his Holy Spirit upon the earth to grant life to the dead and guide men in truth, supernaturally assisting them in these purposes.... Yet God either somehow failed at crafting or communicating a message that would properly last or be understood and discerned from fabrications, failed to choose the right men who would rightly pass it on, failed to continue guiding them with the Holy Spirit to overcome evils conspiring against their efforts, or simply, for whatever reason, after giving his son to die for this redemptive purpose... willfully allowed it get so screwed up that the overwhelming vast majority of people are getting it wildly wrong and only a small handful such as yourself have it right?

People are taught the sun is millions of miles away.

 

[VAL0R]

AngularSaxophone , OK I'll bite. How far away is the sun? And as a follow-up, is the Earth flat?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

AngularSaxophone , What do we care what some non-biblical pseudo-scripture like "Questions of Bartholomew" has to say about doctrine? No one recognizes this book as scripture, except possibly a meager handful the fringiest of fringe oddballs. When you pull your beliefs from all sorts of extra-biblical sources that you compile for yourself it's no wonder your theology is a complete heretical train wreck.

“What do we care” sounds like the spirit talking to me. If someone’s salvation is on the line, you ought to care. Apostasy is what the Catholic Church is the church of.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

AngularSaxophone , OK I'll bite. How far away is the sun? And as a follow-up, is the Earth flat?

I couldn’t tell you how far away it is but it’s in the sky. Just as it seems. Not millions of miles away. In scripture God makes the sun stop and makes it go backward. If you can trick the world into not understanding who Christ is, you can trick them into not understanding anything.

 

[VAL0R]

I couldn’t tell you how far away it is but it’s in the sky. Just as it seems. Not millions of miles away. In scripture God makes the sun stop and makes it go backward. If you can trick the world into not understanding who Christ is, you can trick them into not understanding anything.

So is the Earth flat?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

In truth it can’t be flat. It has hills and valleys. It doesn’t spin that’s for sure. Scripture doesn’t say that God made the earth stand still.

“Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon; And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.” So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the LORD heeded the voice of a man; for the LORD fought for Israel.”
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭10:12-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Dice]

So you're a geocentrist?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I’m just someone that has discernment. And valor since you’re here why don’t you answer the question I posed about Constantine earlier on this page.

 

[Dice]

R.C. Sproul taught nearly everything that you have denounced in this thread, so I'm not sure why you are then using a video of his, wherein he does not even make a case but merely throws assertions of condemnation against Catholicism. He is also demonstrating an astonishing ignorance of some of the most basic teachings of Catholicism, as well as the guy after him.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

What’s this “everything” that I denounce? Its one thing. Christ is the Son of God and not God himself. He was the representation of eternal life and the grace of God, as the Holy Spirit is the representation of there being no error in God as the spirit of Truth.

Back to scripture though...

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.”
‭‭I Timothy‬ ‭4:1-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Popes and bishops aren’t allowed to marry. The Catholic Church practices none of the Hebrew feasts. Hmmm...

 

[AngularSaxophone]

“We are all God’s children”

““I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭8:37-44, 46-47‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.”

 

[Dice]

I see no reason to even begin this with you when the fallacious understanding of the things you are bringing up and posting are addressed within the very documents cited out of context to condemn them. You also seem to have an ultramontanist view of the papacy, which is common yet still very ignorant of both the teaching of the Church and the views on Francis of many within it.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Well that’s cool I guess.

 

[Airola]

Anyway I’m not going to argue it anymore.

Ok.

Seems this takes place within that 40 days before Christ returned to heaven. Even they knew he was sent of the Father. OH HAY GUISE
........

Well...

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Hey I hadn’t read that book before. I get excited when the stuff that’s deemed “non canon” still has the same messaging. You’d think the adversary would want to teach a different message

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Hm. This doesn’t seem non canon either

You baptized your souls in the water of darkness ! You walked by your own whims! Woe to you who dwell in error, heedless that the light of the sun which judges and looks down upon the all will circle around all things so as to enslave the enemies. You do not even notice the moon, how by night and day it looks down, looking at the bodies of your slaughters! Woe to you who love intimacy with womankind and polluted intercourse with them! Woe to you in the grip of the powers of your body, for they will afflict you!. Woe to you in the grip of the forces of evil demons! Woe to you who beguile your limbs with fire!

Who is it that will rain a refreshing dew on you to extinguish the mass of fire from you along with your burning? Who is it that will cause the sn to shine upon you to disperse the darkness in you and hide the darkness and polluted water?" "The sun and the moon will give a fragrance to you together with the air and the spirit and the earth and the water. For if the sun does not shine upon these bodies, they will wither and perish just like weeds of grass. If the sun shines on them, they prevail and choke the grapevine; but if the grapevine prevails and shades those weeds and all the other brush growing alongside and spreads and flourishes, it alone inherits the land in which it grows; and every place it has shaded it dominates.

 

[VAL0R]

You're really just cluttering up the thread at this point.