this is kind of hilarious
that internal SSD is pure overkill it seems - there are obviously other bottlenecks keeping it down
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[DF] Can the Slowest PS5 SSD Upgrade Run Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart?
- Thread starter 3liteDragon
- Start date
- Analysis Hardware
that internal SSD is pure overkill it seems - there are obviously other bottlenecks keeping it down
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
I've literally said this, months before the release. People would get big mad at me for stating the obvious. And now when it gets proven, I can finally get my redemption.
Shmunter
Member
Sorry, but VFX has no idea. The i/o aims to eliminate ram constraints, it is nothing to do with the GPU.
Having unfettered access to e.g 50 gig worth of assets quickly does not equate needing to render 50 gig worth of assets within a single frame. It’s all about new design flexibility.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
A diagnosis with a single data point, amazing doctor. Almost as if you would take anything if it took PS5 down a peg eh
? Schlong doing the same, but sure… fill your boots .
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absolutely this the GPU in will bottleneck it long before we talk abo maximizing data streaming.....
Mister Wolf
Member
I swear man. I wish Sony didn't put restrictions on what the system would allow so they can test any SSD.
and please could you tell us what 50 GB (or even just 22 GB) would be needed instantly if not for some complex rendering? ..... enlighten us...netcode? ai? audio files loaded just one time ? 50gb!!!!!!?
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rickybooby87
Member
Resident Evil Village Full Game Performance a Bit Better on XSX, PS5 Has Loading Time Edge
Analysis for the full Resident Evil Village shows advantages for both XSX and PS5, and that RT mode is more impressive than advertised.
wccftech.com
Heck, the PS5 even beats PC in loading times, how do you explain that?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
We will see, one early next generation gaming and wild extrapolation, but it is easier to wink at the drive being almost 2x over specced… making a statement of absolute fact without evidence and then asking evidence from others a post later.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Like with earlier discussions, looking at 50 GB of data transferred quickly instead of lots of small data chunks loaded very very quickly with a very low latency.
Shmunter
Member
ok, how about something basic like traversal through varied and dense environments.
The environment doesn’t need to be more geometrically complex while having changing scenery and detail without cut and paste assets
Snake29
Banned
You're starting to get a bit of an irritating big mouth. You don't have much to say at home do you? You entered the threading and spreading a lot of gut feelings around.
What is it with you? You ignore what people already have said. Insomniac has always stated that it was not possible on the PS4. They never said “it was not possible on any other next-gen device”. Why would they? It’s not relevant ar that point since R&C is developed for the PS5 and nothing else.
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John Wick
Member
The SSD wasn't expensive anymore than any other. It's the IO unit and the amount of lanes they are using.
John Wick
Member
They gave up 18% teraflop performance for IO and cost saving.
John Wick
Member
The console hasn't even been out one year yet people expect it to be utilised fully?
The crossgen games should give you a hint as to why the games aren't even close to using the systems properly
Rea
Member
Do you understand what's bottleneck is?
not just 18% GPU - they are also not paying for the full RDNA2 spec so a couple of years down the line when mesh shaders and possible some sort of AI resolution enhancer it could be more lost than just 18% brute rendering speed...
.... and going by these test it seems that putting all their money towards a superfast ssd probably was not the best choice.. obviously there are other bottlenecks
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John Wick
Member
Neogaf is full of engineers and game programmers like MonarchJT
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The truth is, Sony is best not to chase after console warriors that want to prove that the PS5's SSD isn't needed. They are such a stupid bunch anyway. What reasonable person that knows a little bit about computer hardware couldn't understand that a fast SSD along with the other I\O hardware in the PS5 will allow games to be made that couldn't be made on the PS4?
John Wick
Member
Are you dense? They haven't put the money towards the fast SSD. It's the IO and 12 lanes that give it the speed.
The full RDNA2 spec? You mean the one for PC? Sony don't need it. They have their own implementations of certain things.
Is that why the PS5 Disc drive model is no longer making a loss?
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I think we eventually will see some games use this speed at some point but who knows when or even if that happens.
I will say this several of us watched the road to ps5 reveal and the actual PS5 full reveal and even then some higher up people within Xbox laughed and said that SSD was way too overpowered and Sony spent way too much time and money on it as it would never become the norm outside of a small handful of games MAYBE
We shall see someday
Shmunter
Member
Funny thing is, you don’t even need to be one if you can simply read and have high enough aptitude to understand info that’s readily out there. Pretty cringe some of the comments.
So you are saying that because of one test of a game that the devs themselves (who made the game) said they are only scratching the performance of the IO/SSD? And there is a lot of performance left. Yet you are making a conclusion that is was a wrong or bad choice? How do you know that?
Also how do you know Sony didn't make their our solutions about mesh shader and etc? Maybe they didn't want it because they would make their our solution? Can't that happen? Or the only reason is because they did not or couldn't pay for it?
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Shmunter
Member
People within Xbox laughed about people presenting PS? Gidouttahere!
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
No they laughed at which direction they took in the SSD not about people presenting PS sorry if I didnt come across clear enough
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
What cost savings? The console is $500 for disc edition just like Microsoft. If there were cost savings it didnt get passed down to the consumer then why should I worry about it?
And the IO does not take up much space at all. The PS5 APU is around 308 mm2. XSX APU is 360mm2. Thats around a 18% difference. That manifests in a 18% performance advantage. If the IO was so huge, their APU wouldve been much more closer to the XSX APU in size.
This simply isnt true. A faster SSD will always be more expensive. What's next? A faster RAM isnt more expensive? Then why did they go with only 448 GBps RAM bandwidth? Why not go with the 560 GBps? Because it's more expensive and they had already blew their budget on a SSD.
What other games Sony has shown that you see fully utilizing the SSD? Sony has literally shown games coming out in 2023 and beyond. That's 3-4 years into a console life cycle. Which game can only be done on the 5.5 GBps PS5?
Shmunter
Member
No biggie. Any such appraisal is still is enveloped in quintessential bias being direct competitors.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Its cute that people like to hold onto the notion that the upper managements of these mega companies are at odds with each other like fanboys are here in the forums
Rea
Member
Shmunter
Member
Depends on what sort of laughing it was - was it a mild giggle or a full blown HOHoHo? I imagine fat execs smoking cigars doing the HOHOHO, especially when laughing at tech
I am just stating that, going by this evidence, they should probably have put money towards a better GPU - since their expensive drive is not really used anyway
haha in fact if it is the IO and 12 lanes that makes the SSD fast you are basically arguing the same point I am - the current SSD is overkill and they are paying for stuff not really in use
are you offended personally by this?
How’s Discord? Do you all and Alex Bugagga always huddle together and dicide what video DF should do next?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I said this as well. You can have the fastest SSD and IO in the world pushing incredible amounts of detail per second, but the GPU still has to be powerful enough to render it. At what point does the 10 tflops GPU become the bottleneck?
I like the innovation in the I/O, I dont understand the fascination with a 5.5 GBps SSD that NO third party dev is going to use. Not even the ones they have contracted so far. Kena, Deathloop, Ghostwire Tokyo, Returnal before Housemarquee were bought out, Forspoken, FF16. That's a lot of timed or second party exclusives and no one used it like Insomniac did. Third party devs wont bother going over 2.4 GBps, if that. They will be limited by the SATA SSDs that top out at 500 MBps since internal NVME SSDs still arent mainstream yet.
So what they have done is conceded an 18% minimum advantage to the competition for an advantage in loading. Or an advantage in 1 or 2 games that we have not seen yet and we have seen 10 exclusives from them so far.
P.S The RAM bandwidth might be a bigger bottleneck than a 10 tflops GPU. The 448 GBps has to share the load with CPU which could explain why Hitman was locked to 1800p on the PS5 while the 5700xt a GPU with fewer tflops was easily able to run it at 60 fps on average at native 4k ultra settings no less. I think Cerny deserves a lot of criticism for the bandwidth decision alone. Especially since it came at the expense of a faster SSD.
You serious?????? Of course MS would say that. They have a stock standard SSD in their console. They would say anything to downplay PS5 advantages.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Nahh just to the point of saying it was overkill for gaming right now.
We will see what the future holds and how many games we get that actually requires those speeds.
yeah the RDNA2 features that only Xbox has could absolutely be marketing
time will tell i guess - noone here knows this for sure yet
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Nahh it was just said it was overkill right now and this DF seems to prove it for current games.
Trust me I am all onboard wanting to see what someone can do with these speeds but having been a console gamer since the first Atari I can tell you I am super thrilled with the SSD speeds in both my PS5 and XSX as is
Snake29
Banned
Ow it's Xbox, time will always tell. You're already trying to cover your ass. Just talk talk and talk talk. This will be no different the entire generation.
And since “none” knows it for sure, you guys keep spreading it as if this “FULL RDNA2” thingy is the final countdown.
So yes, that tweet from Xbox back then was pure marketing, since they couldn’t claim the “most powerful console” narrative anymore. They needed something else since their launch was also laughable bad with no games.
RafterXL
Member
I think my favorite is the "let's see what happens in three years" crowd. You geniuses realize that the console will be bottlenecked by other parts of the system long before they can saturate a 5.5gb/s drive during gameplay, right?
I'll go ahead and say it right now, we will not see a single PS5 first party game that will be an issue for this drive...not one. And even if it magically happens, who cares? You still have an internal drive, put this unicorn of a game on it and call it a day, which makes the FUD about slower drives even more hilarious.
Go read the threads, it's hilarious.
Cut the shit, bro. This is literally what you guys are doing in this thread and have been doing all year. Look in the mirror for fucks sake.
I'll go ahead and say it right now, we will not see a single PS5 first party game that will be an issue for this drive...not one. And even if it magically happens, who cares? You still have an internal drive, put this unicorn of a game on it and call it a day, which makes the FUD about slower drives even more hilarious.
Imagine how far the goalposts have moved since the PS5s release. None of y'all were pulling this "first generation game" bullshit last year, or even six months ago. He'll even a month ago you guys were claiming that a slower drive wouldn't run R&C up to par and yet here we are.
Go read the threads, it's hilarious.
No, it's actually NOT "much faster". No HMB on PS5 makes it significantly SLOWER than its rated spec. I bet money the XSX drive would run R&C exactly the same.
Cut the shit, bro. This is literally what you guys are doing in this thread and have been doing all year. Look in the mirror for fucks sake.
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attacking launch games too - totally out of context. nice!
This post should be saved as and example of well... crazy fanboy
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I'm sympathetic to the criticism that an innovation that can only be used for exclusive games does seem pretty compromised, but yeah, ultimately we're going to have to wait to see the results to really know If it was the right call.
If Sony just calculated that multiplatform games would run at a slightly lower resolution, but that their big games would look WAAAY better, then that might turn out to be a good trade off. It's not an implausible scenario.
MadchesterManc
Member
Where exactly did I say previously any of what you have just claimed for me to have moved goalposts. I'll wait
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The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
You'd think a new tech like this that has been hyped so much would be used in a game that was marketed as using it.
I understand what you are saying, and it has been true before.
But a tech this tailored into the platform should already show max potential from the beginning.
This isn't devs pushing better textures at the cost of other things like an acceptable framerate, but a specialised tech that should be used by a first party developer.
This is the stupid xbox one secret sauce all over again.
You won't get any redemption, because these cerny desciples will still call you an idiot and make some other excuse to why it didn't happen.
The most recent one is "well they port the games to pc and pc won't be able to play them if Sony used the secret sauce so pc holding ps5 back"
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Red_Driver85
Member
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Any concerns about ram or 10tf being bottlenecks were glossed over by gamers and Cerny's presentation. And very few people will think of bottlenecks or try to do math on what a system theoretically can do, cant do, and where things may get maxed out. SSD is at 5.5gb/s. If it was at 6, 7 or 10 gb/s would it make a difference? What if it was 4 gb/s, would anything change? Who knows.I said this as well. You can have the fastest SSD and IO in the world pushing incredible amounts of detail per second, but the GPU still has to be powerful enough to render it. At what point does the 10 tflops GPU become the bottleneck?
I like the innovation in the I/O, I dont understand the fascination with a 5.5 GBps SSD that NO third party dev is going to use. Not even the ones they have contracted so far. Kena, Deathloop, Ghostwire Tokyo, Returnal before Housemarquee were bought out, Forspoken, FF16. That's a lot of timed or second party exclusives and no one used it like Insomniac did. Third party devs wont bother going over 2.4 GBps, if that. They will be limited by the SATA SSDs that top out at 500 MBps since internal NVME SSDs still arent mainstream yet.
So what they have done is conceded an 18% minimum advantage to the competition for an advantage in loading. Or an advantage in 1 or 2 games that we have not seen yet and we have seen 10 exclusives from them so far.
P.S The RAM bandwidth might be a bigger bottleneck than a 10 tflops GPU. The 448 GBps has to share the load with CPU which could explain why Hitman was locked to 1800p on the PS5 while the 5700xt a GPU with fewer tflops was easily able to run it at 60 fps on average at native 4k ultra settings no less. I think Cerny deserves a lot of criticism for the bandwidth decision alone. Especially since it came at the expense of a faster SSD.
Literally 80%+ of it was SSD and Tempest audio, so thats what people remember and focus on. Anything about 10 tf or ram was shown fast and it was off to the next slide.