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[JackMcGunns]

You just didn't deserve my energy lol

Me: "Different games will hit the bottlenecks of each system differently"


You in a fit of rage: " If that's so why this different game run differently on the 2 consoles?" "Tell me that?"

Fit rage? hyperbole or projection?

What you said is no secret, the issue is trying to use Sea of Thieves as a benchmark for that. It's disingenuous for a game that has a completely different timeline and build. This is more like build 1.2.5 that was recently beta tested, is running better than build 1.2.0. It has very little to do with hardware limitations, both PS5 and XSX are capable of much more.

 

[onQ123]

Fit rage? hyperbole or projection?

What you said is no secret, the issue is trying to use Sea of Thieves as a benchmark for that. It's disingenuous for a game that has a completely different timeline and build. This is more like build 1.2.5 that was recently beta tested, is running better than build 1.2.0. It has very little to do with hardware limitations, both PS5 and XSX are capable of much more.

The hell? I didn't use SOT as a benchmark I pointed out that the shadows are better because of PS5 ROPs setup using the older RBE which has 2x the depth ROPs vs Series X ROPs setup .

 

[JackMcGunns]

The hell? I didn't use SOT as a benchmark I pointed out that the shadows are better because of PS5 ROPs setup using the older RBE which has 2x the depth ROPs vs Series X ROPs setup .

So you're not saying that shadows can look better on PS5 due to hardware differences and using Sea of Theives as a bechmark here?

Why not acknowledge that newer builds can have more refinements, rather than going down the ROPs rabbit hole with a 2018 game? Instead lets take the time to appreciate the good work the devs have done with the PS5 version of Sea of Thieves, it's a fun game. Let's be glad we didn't end up with a Grounded-like port.

 

[onQ123]

So you're not saying that shadows can look better on PS5 due to hardware differences and using Sea of Theives as a bechmark here?

Why not acknowledge that newer builds can have more refinements, rather than going down the ROPs rabbit hole with a 2018 game? Instead lets take the time to appreciate the good work the devs have done with the PS5 version of Sea of Thieves, it's a fun game. Let's be glad we didn't end up with a Grounded-like port.

PS5 having better shadows is a common thing

 

[Banjo64]

Dude, this is not a power issue. Different development times will generate different results, it's not like Sea of Thieves was in development at the same time. The code was originally created to run on Xbox One, then minimal coding was needed to make it run on Series X. PS5 would require an entirely different and more intricate process and more development time. There's no reason for the team to go back and do the same optimizations on an already finished Xbox Series X game just for the few warriors who are going to highlight an DF comparison, it's silly. The current code running on PS5 is better because it's newer. What's your excuse for Alan Wake 2? That's a current gen game with highly impressive visuals that's simply superior on Series X, now what? where will you move the goalposts to?

This is one limp answer.

 

[Havoc2049]

Stop the GAF on GAF violence!

 

[adamsapple]

PS5 having better shadows is a common thing

Eh, not really a 'common thing'.

Grounded has quote unquote sharper shadows on PS5 but it results in obvious stair stepping artifacts where SX's 'worse' shadows are diffused and look better TBH.

 

[onQ123]

Eh, not really a 'common thing'.

Grounded has quote unquote sharper shadows on PS5 but it results in obvious stair stepping artifacts where SX's 'worse' shadows are diffused and look better TBH.

They said this problem is also on PC Ultra setting

 

[JackMcGunns]

They said this probably is also on PC Ultra setting

You said PS5 having better shadows is a common thing, but here shadows look better on Series X.

 

[onQ123]

You said PS5 having better shadows is a common thing, but here shadows look better on Series X.

Did you watch the video? The shadows are higher quality but has a problem that make them look worse at times

 

[Buhaj]

Well, even though I will probably not play this particular game, I am glad I went with Playstation this gen - better performance in games with Xbox titles included anyway. No reason to own an Xbox for a typical user (yes, I know, Game Pass, yes, I know, Back Compat, but still - average Joe won't care).

 

[Darkkahn]

Eh, not really a 'common thing'.

Grounded has quote unquote sharper shadows on PS5 but it results in obvious stair stepping artifacts where SX's 'worse' shadows are diffused and look better TBH.

You could've just typed "sharper shadows".

 

[CityHunter1981]

It’s funny that even the first party studios are not able to make the performance on XBOX much better than on PlayStation. I still remember how Microsoft advertised their better specs on paper compared to PlayStation, but in the end it didn’t showed in most games. Either in Playstation the components compliment each other better or developers don’t even try to push the series X to its limit, since they anyway also have to make sure that they run on Series S.

 

[Lysandros]

It’s funny that even the first party studios are not able to make the performance on XBOX much better than on PlayStation. I still remember how Microsoft advertised their better specs on paper compared to PlayStation, but in the end it didn’t showed in most games. Either in Playstation the components compliment each other better or developers don’t even try to push the series X to its limit, since they anyway also have to make sure that they run on Series S.

With either system 'pushed to limits' the overall results would still be evenly matched due to inherent specs. Microsoft dropped the 'most powerful console' marketing a long time ago.

 

[DenchDeckard]

why isn't Lysandros and O onQ123 in threads like the alan wake 2 one going into depth about why the xbox is performing better in next gen engines?

...

 

[Die Namek Ability]

why isn't Lysandros and O onQ123 in threads like the alan wake 2 one going into depth about why the xbox is performing better in next gen engines?

...

What you are inferring is misplaced. They have been very consistent with thier messaging. Both platform perform similarly some games favor one and some favor others, this is because of the difference each system has with strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Some people cannot handle that one system is NOT more powerful than the other. Because they refuse to acknowledge a power advantage or disadvantage overall people like yourself try to engage in petty console wars.

 

[DenchDeckard]

What you are inferring is misplaced. They have been very consistent with thier messaging. Both platform perform similarly some games favor one and some favor others, this is because of the difference each system has with strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Some people cannot handle that one system is NOT more powerful than the other. Because they refuse to acknowledge a power advantage or disadvantage overall people like yourself try to engage in petty console wars.

SO, why are they never in the threads about Xbox ports "winning" describing to us lamens what part of the clearly superior handling of specific elements in the Xbox series X design is that creates those performance deltas?

 

[Die Namek Ability]

SO, why are they never in the threads about Xbox ports "winning" describing to us lamens what part of the clearly superior handling of specific elements in the Xbox series X design is that creates those performance deltas?

Assuming you are being factual, who knows? It's possible they have no interest in those games. Or before they have had a chance to reply the reason has already been identified.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Assuming you are being factual, who knows? It's possible they have no interest in those games. Or before they have had a chance to reply the reason has already been identified.

It's pretty obvious "why".... but anyway.....PS5 pro is going wide and fast this year so it should beast mode everything.

 

[Die Namek Ability]

It's pretty obvious "why".... but anyway.....PS5 pro is going wide and fast this year so it should beast mode everything.

Instead of passive aggressive attitude, directed through implication, why dont YOU state WHY and back up your claims with evidence? Otherwise you just come off as one of the people that are upset that one console isn't running away with the power narrative and feel the need to discredit others to dismiss the merits of the other console.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Instead of passive aggressive attitude, directed through implication, why dont YOU state WHY and back up your claims with evidence? Otherwise you just come off as one of the people that are upset that one console isn't running away with the power narrative and feel the need to discredit others to dismiss the merits of the other console.

I don't have the technical knowledge, or claim to and I do find it interesting when I hear about ROPS advantages and all these other things I do not understand...It's just you only see those comments about Playstation on this board for some reason. Those same posters do not share the insight into Xbox series X platform and where it's strengths lie. Im sure plenty of posters would like to read that reasoning as well.

 

[avin]

SO, why are they never in the threads about Xbox ports "winning" describing to us lamens what part of the clearly superior handling of specific elements in the Xbox series X design is that creates those performance deltas?

It's possible they're not unbiased, and it shows in the threads they post in. But it's also possible to be both biased and right.

And although I agree it would be interesting to understand some of this better, there's clearly noise in platform-specific tooling and implementation so that we can't trust any single data point. And, these consoles seem close enough in their performance that I have come to the tentative conclusion that we're unlikely to understand this better than we currently do.

avin

 

[Die Namek Ability]

I don't have the technical knowledge, or claim to and I do find it interesting when I hear about ROPS advantages and all these other things I do not understand...It's just you only see those comments about Playstation on this board for some reason. Those same posters do not share the insight into Xbox series X platform and where it's strengths lie. Im sure plenty of posters would like to read that reasoning as well.

So instead of the approach you took, I recommend the following.

"Poster 1 and 2, I am really interested in understanding these different architectures and have noticed you have made several indepth posts for games A,B and C. Do you think you can provide insight into games D and E where it seems there are other consoles strengths are at play? Thanks!"

No need for the behavior you have displayed towords these users especially if you want THEM to educate YOU.

 

[Ashamam]

Those same posters do not share the insight into Xbox series X platform and where it's strengths lie

Personally I think it comes down to generally speaking devs don't (edit: fully) leverage the Series X. I blame it on a common GDK, so Xbox titles are really just another PC target essentially, followed by the inconvenient problem that if they do push the X they will run up against S limitations, so in the end they don't bother. Easier to just pick a point in between that allows an S version to ship and then just scale the X as far as it will go.

On the PS side its a case of punching above its weight because its well architected and a single target with a reportedly good SDK that forces devs to think through how they utilise the hardware because they can't just fall back on DX12. And the market size means they can't skip the platform.

 

[SkyHighTrees]

fucking fanboys fuck all awwwf

 

[Lysandros]

On the PS side its a case of punching above its weight because its well architected and a single target with a reportedly good SDK that forces devs to think through how they utilise the hardware because they can't just fall back on DX12. And the market size means they can't skip the platform.

Okay but what's PS5's 'actual weight' according to you then? Did you account for the fact that its GPU is actually more powerful than XSX' in pure rasterization/fixed function throughput (besides other facets/customizations)? Can't it simply be that the system is performing as it should based on its hardware/raw metrics?

In software side of things the familiarity with PS5's GNM/X isn't a given. It can in fact require more time and effort to obtain acceptable performance/parity from the (potentially) lower level API compared to XSX' DX12 like you alluded. The issue i have is that PS5's own hardware strengths are most often overlooked to the point of non existence leading to faulty and arbitrary assessment. That is neither fair nor objective. That is the only reason why i put more emphasis to the hardware side of things for PS5. In contrast, XSX' higher compute ceiling is a very common knowledge.

 

[DenchDeckard]

So instead of the approach you took, I recommend the following.

"Poster 1 and 2, I am really interested in understanding these different architectures and have noticed you have made several indepth posts for games A,B and C. Do you think you can provide insight into games D and E where it seems there are other consoles strengths are at play? Thanks!"

No need for the behavior you have displayed towords these users especially if you want THEM to educate YOU.

You are absolutely right, and I have actually done this before. I have tagged and requested an explanation on the performance but never got a response. Maybe they never saw the messages though.

 

[Ashamam]

Okay but what's PS5's 'actual weight' according to you then? Did you account for the fact that its GPU is actually more powerful than XSX' in pure rasterization/fixed function throughput (besides other facets/customizations)? Can't it simply be that the system is performing as it should based on its hardware/raw metrics?

I should have said perceived weight. I'm in 100% agreement with you, the narrative can be a bit infuriating.

 

[Lysandros]

It's possible they're not unbiased, and it shows in the threads they post in. But it's also possible to be both biased and right.

In this context, i did post in Alan Wake 2 DF comparison:

XSX is noticeably ahead on this one apparently, no question. PS5 version needs some additional work to stabilise the performance.

Digital Foundry: Alan Wake 2 Xbox Tech Review - Excellent On Series X, But What About Series S?

Delayed a touch, owing to lack of review code and Xbox patches lagging behind other formats by a couple of days, we're happy to present our findings for the Xbox versions of Alan Wake 2, while also going into much more depth on what separates quality and performance modes, aside from resolution...

www.neogaf.com

And in plenty others using "next-gen engines" such as UE5 showing results favouring either system. That being said, i don't post in DF comparison threads featuring Tom's videos anymore (post Avatar). I do have a preference when it comes to design and an interest to assess those machines fairly but i don't care with with corporate success be it Sony's or Microsoft's. As an additional note, i own neither console and wouldn't buy a PS5 PRO even if i was a billionaire.

 

[avin]

In this context, i did post in Alan Wake 2 DF comparison:

To be clear, I didn't mean you specifically, although looking at the entire thread in context I see how one might draw that conclusion. I enjoy your posts, and have learned a lot from them, whichever thread you choose to post in.

avin

 

[onQ123]

With either system 'pushed to limits' the overall results would still be evenly matched due to inherent specs. Microsoft dropped the 'most powerful console' marketing a long time ago.

Actually nope they both have strengths & weaknesses so if a game is pushed in one consoles favor it might not run as well on the other.

A heavily data driving pipeline pushing the limits of PS5 would have to have cut backs on Series X & a compute driver game pushing the limits of Series X would have to cut back on PS5 ( both consoles also have small customizations that offset the numbers so it's not cut & dry) but we mostly get stuff in the middle

 

[UltimaKilo]

Getting the rivals' exclusives with seemingly no difference whatsoever is a big win for the PS audience. I don't mind supporting great games, I just don't want an Xbox, and now thanks to Phil I don't have to, now bring Forza Horizon and Hellblade 2 Phil.

The game is going on 7 years old, it was fully saturated on PC and console. The fact that you can squeeze extra revenue off such and old product would be incredible. I just don’t see who really cares to play such an old game, the people who wanted to play it, already gave.

It’s a fantastic game, though.

 

[ManaByte]

The game is going on 7 years old, it was fully saturated on PC and console. The fact that you can squeeze extra revenue off such and old product would be incredible. I just don’t see who really cares to play such an old game, the people who wanted to play it, already gave.

It’s a fantastic game, though.

The game is the #2 pre order on PSN after Stellar Booty.

 

[Lysandros]

Actually nope they both have strengths & weaknesses so if a game is pushed in one consoles favor it might not run as well on the other.

A heavily data driving pipeline pushing the limits of PS5 would have to have cut backs on Series X & a compute driver game pushing the limits of Series X would have to cut back on PS5 ( both consoles also have small customizations that offset the numbers so it's not cut & dry) but we mostly get stuff in the middle

I meant in grand scheme of things across (multiplatform) games with strengths and weaknesses canceling each other essentially, not that the results would be 'exactly' the same.

The gap in I/O hardware and speed far exceeds the moderate 18% of compute difference. Like you pointed out, i also don't think this is quite 18% in practice since this figure doesn't take compute efficiency into account, which i think is higher on PS5 due to a number of hardware factors. In this context, i personaly i don't see a ~10-15% difference in real world throughput leading to 'significant' cutbacks. As to PS5 I/O, i don't think it's even remotely being pushed to the extent described/intented in Road to PS5 by Cerny mostly due to 'generalist' engines not being tailored for it and Sony's own policies hampering the progress on that front somewhat.

 

[onQ123]

I meant in grand scheme of things across (multiplatform) games with strengths and weaknesses canceling each other essentially, not that the results would be 'exactly' the same.

The gap in I/O hardware and speed far exceeds the moderate 18% of compute difference. Like you pointed out, i also don't think this is quite 18% in practice since this figure doesn't take compute efficiency into account, which i think is higher on PS5 due to a number of hardware factors. In this context, i personaly i don't see a ~10-15% difference in real world throughput leading to 'significant' cutbacks. As to PS5 I/O, i don't think it's even remotely being pushed to the extent described/intented in Road to PS5 by Cerny mostly due to 'generalist' engines not being tailored for it and Sony's own policies hampering the progress on that front somewhat.

I think the achilles heel of being able to have a big data driven advantage is that we are in the digital download era so making a game that really has a lot of data to move would end up in the 200 GB - 1TB range

 

[UltimaKilo]

The game is the #2 pre order on PSN after Stellar Booty.

Well deserved. Excellent.

 

[ManaByte]

Well deserved. Excellent.

Uh huh.

I just don’t see who really cares to play such an old game, the people who wanted to play it, already gave.

 

[onQ123]

why isn't Lysandros and O onQ123 in threads like the alan wake 2 one going into depth about why the xbox is performing better in next gen engines?

...

I don't even recall watching the Alan Wake 2 video , why aren't you in the Alan Wake 2 threads going into depth about why the Xbox is performing better in next Gen engines?

I recall it being threads about how the Xbox was going to be the Power King so why do you need me to explain why it does better in some games?

 

[UltimaKilo]

Uh huh.

Uh huh, what? It's an excellent game. If people want to play it, dated and all, they should. I put well over 100 hours into it and still fire it every now and again to tuck on a ship and sink them while they do a fort.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I don't even recall watching the Alan Wake 2 video , why aren't you in the Alan Wake 2 threads going into depth about why the Xbox is performing better in next Gen engines?

I recall it being threads about how the Xbox was going to be the Power King so why do you need me to explain why it does better in some games?

You probably didn't watch it when you read the results... - Just kidding

 

[Physiognomonics]

I meant in grand scheme of things across (multiplatform) games with strengths and weaknesses canceling each other essentially, not that the results would be 'exactly' the same.

The gap in I/O hardware and speed far exceeds the moderate 18% of compute difference. Like you pointed out, i also don't think this is quite 18% in practice since this figure doesn't take compute efficiency into account, which i think is higher on PS5 due to a number of hardware factors. In this context, i personaly i don't see a ~10-15% difference in real world throughput leading to 'significant' cutbacks. As to PS5 I/O, i don't think it's even remotely being pushed to the extent described/intented in Road to PS5 by Cerny mostly due to 'generalist' engines not being tailored for it and Sony's own policies hampering the progress on that front somewhat.

Yes we probably are starting to see the I/O gap in a few multiplat games. Notably Avatar with those streaming freezes on Xbox totally absent on PS5. I'd say here this is a very noticeable difference. And the PS5 outperforming Xbox in those rare CPU limited games (BG3 and DD2) ? This is probably caused by all the dedicated I/O (and audio?) hardware on PS5 alleviating the CPU that can do others tasks. I mean in PS4 era the XB1 was actually outperforming PS4 in many of those games. What's happening on Xbox series here?