DmC thread backfire

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Amir0x said:
He IS right about what he said (except the perceived fanbase did exist).

The only problem is making a game for yourself in this case means making the game Tameem and Ninja Theory want to make, and they're unfortunately a bunch of talentless hacks. So for them, probably not the greatest idea.
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Well, that's a bit hyperbolic and I haven't even played any of their games. Talentless hacks would be reserved for Zynga who just steal other games wholesale, while Ninja Theory clearly has talent for some things like cinematics that Naughty Dog would then iterate on with Uncharted.

Different question but without Enslaved doing the nature overgrown urban, would The Last of Us and Crysis 3 look as they do now?
 
neptunes said:
Dahbomb, what was your reaction to DMC2? Assuming you we're avid DMC fan during the time of it's release? We're you this angry?
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I am not even close to being angry at DmC. I like this game. It's an above average action game at the minimum and I am very happy to have played another solid game in the genre. I don't love it or think it's godly but I don't hate it either.

I fucking HATED DMC2. If I could've cried out of actual disappointment of a game, I would've cried over that game. The $60 I lost getting the game pales in comparison to the crushing blow that game dealt me. Never mind that DMC2 is an awful DMC2 game... it's a terrible all around action game as well. The best way to deal with DMC2 is to pretend it never existed. I thank the stylish gods every day for the existence of DMC3 because I honestly thought Capcom killed the franchise with DMC2. Manly tears were shed when DMC3 was unveiled at E3 wit that godlike trailer.

Where have some of you been this veneration? 2 million units for a AAA blockbuster is nothing to write home about this generation. It's not a failure, but "lackluster" seems appropriate.
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DMC has never been an "AAA blockbuster" type game. Capcom doesn't put nearly as much resources/budget into a DMC game as it does with a RE game. All DMC games have done well for themselves average 2 million per game with DMC4 selling the most at 2.7 million. The series was showing healthy growth after being at serious risk of dying out from the colossal shitfest that was DMC2.

Capcom projected DMC4 to sell 1.8 million and it EXCEEDED their expectations. And early on in the generation you didn't have as bloated budgets on games so getting that 2.7 million for DMC4 was extremely good (it's top 5 best selling games for Capcom this generation). I never get tired of comments about DMC4 selling lackluster when it was the best performing game in the series and after GoW the best selling action game.
 
Inorigo said:
Where have some of you been this veneration? 2 million units for a AAA blockbuster is nothing to write home about this generation. It's not a failure, but "lackluster" seems appropriate.
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Devil_May_Cry_sales_figures.png


It will probably end up selling less than DMC3

the question now is... did DmC destroy the brand?
 
GMN said:
no, the perceived demographic of the developers themselves.

reading the entire post is fun. you should try it sometime.
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What does that even mean? the demographic perceived by the developers? if so how didn't they perceived that the demographic of the game wanted stylish and technical gameplay?
 
Metalic said:
Guys, come on, what's done is done and there is no turning back now, I mean Capcom did this because they wanted the series to go to a new direction, they could've easily outsourced it to another studio and let them continue with the old series, but they wanted the series to be fresh again whether us the fans liked it or not, what happened was going to happen with or without Ninja Theory.
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What evidence is there they went in a new direction, though?

With all that has been said about DmC, I barely ever see anyone say it's a radical departure from the conventions of the series. Criticisms seem to centre around more minute issues like combat, character, and level design. Nothing that one would call a fundamental and immediately discernable change to the very core of the franchise.

Which at once makes the ferocity of some criticism seem a bit hyperbolic, but also raises the question of what Capcom was hoping to achieve with this reboot. Because aside from story and characters, it's not really a reboot even then. Just the same old conflicts and characters but presented differently. If anything Nero was more of a reboot because it actually represented an entirely new protagonist for the series. Even if Capcom didn't follow through with that completely in DMC4.

Pachterballs said:
It will probably end up selling less than DMC3

the question now is... did DmC destroy the brand?
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That DMC4 figure is old, it's at 2.7 million shipped according to Capcom.
 
Erethian said:
What evidence is there they went in a new direction, though?

With all that has been said about DmC, I barely ever see anyone say it's a radical departure from the conventions of the series. Criticisms seem to centre around more minute issues like combat, character, and level design. Nothing that one would call a fundamental and immediately discernable change to the very core of the franchise.

Which at once makes the ferocity of some criticism seem a bit hyperbolic, but also raises the question of what Capcom was hoping to achieve with this reboot. Because aside from story and characters, it's not really a reboot even then. Just the same old conflicts and characters but presented differently. If anything Nero was more of a reboot because it actually represented an entirely new protagonist for the series. Even if Capcom didn't follow through with that completely in DMC4.
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http://uk.ign.com/articles/2010/10/20/capcom-dante-needed-to-be-completely-different
 
Amir0x said:
I just won't ever understand what people see in them.


People tend not to bring up the gameplay, because it's usually pretty bad - Heavenly Sword was a shallow abomination of an action game that lasted 5 hours none of which were remotely entertaining. Fucking God of War has like a billion times more depth than Heavenly Sword, and God of War isn't even deep. Input lag issues. Framerate drops. Just a messy game all around.

Then Enslaved game, which had one of the worst stories I've experienced in a videogame this generation (dat gender stereotype, dat fucking ending), as well as just atrocious action combat gameplay with input lag so severe the game for me was a sluggish unenjoyable mess (especially when you add in the frequent frame rate drops; another holdover from Heavenly Sword). It was relatively pretty, but from the do-nothing platforming to the GOD WHY IS THE CAMERA ACTING LIKE THIS moments to the walk-and-snore combat system, it is a truly awful package.

Does one even need to go over how bad Kung Fu Chaos was? 'Cause if any of the games above were bad, this one was just unspeakably terrible.

And now we're here. I heavily suspect any parts of DmC that had any fun at all were a result of Capcom holding their hand through the process; but again it's a game that tries to live up to one standard, and fails to meet it. Devil May Cry 4 still has the infinitely superior combat system, the storyline is still as bad as any of the other games in the series (so, pointless to hire them for that 'talent') and the sales cratered and did nothing. So, what was the point of this exercise? Hire a mediocre dev who doesn't care what the fan thinks, get this result.


With all that said, Tameem is totally on the money about designing games for yourself. You just have to know however when what you want to make is bad... sometimes people don't have that talent. It's what separates bad devs from good ones.
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This needs to be brought up more, I never gave up a game faster than Enslaved.
It was so barebone generic & on easy auto-pilot on every platforming, combat & "puzzle" section.
They never really made any good games before, everything was the definition of mediocre.

The one thing I noticed reviewers who mentioned that they should have named DmC a different franchise so people wouldn't associate it with the previous games & appreciate it for what it is.
That was the exact same rationale reviewers who liked DMC2 & Ninja Gaiden 3 also said & those games sucked.
 
Inorigo said:
How about this: Capcom wasn't satisfied with DMC4's sales. Period.
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No DMC4 EXCEEDED their expectations going from 1.8 million projected to 2.7 million LTD.

What changed was that Capcom got hungry because they saw GoW3 selling 5 million and wanted a piece of that pie. Actually it was Inafune who proposed the idea of Westernizing DMC4. The exact quote was that DMC4 does very well in Japan but does not do AS WELL in US/Europe which was the basis for this reboot.

Also that DMC sales chart is outdated. Combined sales of the franchise is 10 million and that doesn't add up. Well it doesn't have DMC3SE sales either.
 
Diprosalic said:
it [shitty cutscene] had [shitty cutscene] no [shitty cutscene] flow [shitty cutscene], unless [shitty cutscene] you [shitty cutscene] enjoy [shitty cutscene] shitty [shitty cutscene] cutscenes.

it's basically unplayable because there is barely anything to play.
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So it's like every other Devil May Cry game? I found the pacing to be on par with the series, and the quality of those scenes improved... because man most of the cut-scenes in the previous games are total shit. Really dumb action with cringe-worthy dialogue. The new one isn't Tarintino, but it's an improvement.
 
Akainu said:
I wonder how much 4 would have done as a exclusive.
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Probably about the same. Sony warriors were nearly about to commit suicide when this game went multi. Shitstorms ensued. It went from "Fuck you Xtards, we got dat DMC!" to "THAT FUCKING WHITE-HAIRED FGT! I H8 HIM AND CAPCOMZ!"
When a shitstain like HS can break 1 million just because it's exclusive, you can only wonder what an actually decent game can do.
 
Erethian said:
I'm not talking about the initial PR reveal, but what ended up being the end product.
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Just like you said, mainly from a story and setting standpoint, the environments have a more urban aesthetic to them rather than the Gothic setting of before, gameplay is far more streamlined compared to the older games but that's about it though.
 
Aaron said:
So it's like every other Devil May Cry game? I found the pacing to be on par with the series, and the quality of those scenes improved... because man most of the cut-scenes in the previous games are total shit. Really dumb action with cringe-worthy dialogue. The new one isn't Tarintino, but it's an improvement.
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The major difference in the pacing is the amount of unskippable scripted events peppered throughout the game which really hamper the replayability of this game. Everything in previous DMC games was skippable instantly, a lot of stuff in this game either takes like 2-3 seconds to skip or can't be skipped at all.
 
Dahbomb said:
No DMC4 EXCEEDED their expectations going from 1.8 million projected to 2.7 million LTD.

What changed was that Capcom got hungry because they saw GoW3 selling 5 million and wanted a piece of that pie. Actually it was Inafune who proposed the idea of Westernizing DMC4. The exact quote was that DMC4 does very well in Japan but does not do AS WELL in US/Europe which was the basis for this reboot.
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This is exactly right. People need to stop citing "poor sales of DMC4" as a reason for this reboot. It was strictly greed and a desire to capture the Western market.
 
Inorigo said:
How about this: Capcom wasn't satisfied with DMC4's sales. Period.
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In their financial report for the year ending March 31st 2008, Capcom called DMC4 one of their "hit titles". Specifically,

”Devil May Cry 4” released for Xbox 360 and PS3 became a mega hit shipping more than 2 million units."
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Source

I don't think there has ever been a clear indication from Capcom that they viewed DMC4's sales as poor.
 
GMN said:
the developers said attempting to hit a target demographic is futile, and the best they can do is just make a game they themselves would like to play.

you'd know that if you read the entire post.
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That's your take on his words because i totally read that as "it's bad doing a game for a demographic that doesn't exist (aka it's bad try to make an fps for people that don't like guns) so we make a game that we like to play" but since there is a demographic on what the series has been excluding their game this tells me that his/their take on the game is totally wrong (and sales are kinda proving that)
 
Dahbomb said:
The major difference in the pacing is the amount of unskippable scripted events peppered throughout the game which really hamper the replayability of this game. Everything in previous DMC games was skippable instantly, a lot of stuff in this game either takes like 2-3 seconds to skip or can't be skipped at all.
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That's something that would hamper a second run, and maybe the devs will patch it, but going straight through the first time it feels like Ninja Theory followed the pacing of the DMC games to the letter, while pulling back on some of the gross stupidity. I'm not a fan of the fedora personally, but it's better than getting a motorcycle chucked at someone.
 
Metalic said:
Just like you said, mainly from a story and setting standpoint, the environments have a more urban aesthetic to them rather than the Gothic setting of before, gameplay is far more streamlined compared to the older games but that's about it though.
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I think you missed (and by this post kind of confirmed) my original point. Which is that DmC doesn't represent a drastic new change in direction for the series, which is what one usually associates with a reboot.
 
Dahbomb said:
This is going to continue until the NPD and then when the Vergil DLC is released. After that the game is done unless there's another NT/DMC related announcement.

So yea just deal with it.
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Might be a good idea to have a FAQ ready, along with the things you have to constantly correct people on about the old series (DMC4 sales numbers, etc.) for the NPD thread.
 
Dahbomb said:
No DMC4 EXCEEDED their expectations going from 1.8 million projected to 2.7 million LTD.

What changed was that Capcom got hungry because they saw GoW3 selling 5 million and wanted a piece of that pie. Actually it was Inafune who proposed the idea of Westernizing DMC4. The exact quote was that DMC4 does very well in Japan but does not do AS WELL in US/Europe which was the basis for this reboot.

Also that DMC sales chart is outdated. Combined sales of the franchise is 10 million and that doesn't add up. Well it doesn't have DMC3SE sales either.
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This is what I always thought was the case. I remember them giving this reasoning.
 
LeleSocho said:
That's your take on his words because i totally read that as "it's bad doing a game for a demographic that doesn't exist (aka it's bad try to make an fps for people that don't like guns) so we make a game that we like to play" but since there is a demographic on what the series has been excluding their game this tells me that his/their take on the game is totally wrong (and sales are kinda proving that)
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"the worst creative crimes are made when you're trying to make a game for someone else."

"the only way to make a successful game is to make a game the developers themselves want to play."

when he says "some perceived demographic that, in all likelihood, doesn't actually exist" he is referring to the idea of hitting a target audience in general, in that he believes that the concept of a target audience is false. and judging by all the people in this thread who have stated they don't see the problem with what he said, you're probably the one who misinterpreted. or only read the part of the post that was highlighted in red since your entire interpretation stems from that.
 
Erethian said:
I think you missed (and by this post kind of confirmed) my original point. Which is that DmC doesn't represent a drastic new change in direction for the series, which is what one usually associates with a reboot.
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I agree, it's just a bit more streamlined experience in a new coat of paint, that's about it, the core of DMC is still in DmC.
 
Metalic said:
I agree, it's just a bit more streamlined experience in a new coat of paint, that's about it, the core of DMC is still in DmC.
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Yeah. Which makes all the effort they've put into DmC show how bad Capcom has become at handling their franchises. If they'd created some completely new gameplay concept that they could build on in future iterations, the lower sales might be worth it. Instead they've harmed the brand for no real gain.

And I'm not saying that that means DmC is a bad game, or a good one. Just that at the end of the day Capcom is left with a reboot that plays very similar to the old games, but now the franchise has much less consumer pull than it did when they started. Of course it's not like this is anything new for DMC, what with DMC2.
 
GMN said:
"the worst creative crimes are made when you're trying to make a game for someone else."

"the only way to make a successful game is to make a game the developers themselves want to play."
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You've done nothing to prove me that you are right... also your kind of reasoning applies more when you are doing a new game from scratch and way less when you are doing a sequel of a series that already have a fanbase

Edit: I've seen now your edit, i think i will remain with my interpretation but what i said in this post still stands, you have a target audience when you are making a new iteration of a franchise you don't have it if it's a new game.
 
Inorigo said:
How about this: Capcom wasn't satisfied with DMC4's sales. Period.
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you've been repeatedly proven wrong. They were more than happy with the sales.

I seriously can't imagine them thinking that teen-ifying dante and make him swear/give the finger, flip around naked while flyign through the air with bits like fish and what not covering his genitalia and having wackyass douchebag dante is the way to "capture the western/GOW3" market.
 
The only thing wrong with his quote is the "I don't care about sales" stuff.

He obviously does if he wants to keep making games.
 
Pachterballs said:
heavenly sword isn't a good game. It had PS3 hype being one of the early exclusive. I couldn't finish it. And I bought it at launch.

Enslaved isn't a good game. The combat was also repetitive and the glowing foothold that indicate where you should go is 3D gaming 101. Even mario didn't do that shit. It was very mediocre.
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Heavenly Sword was an okay game in my opinion. At the point I picked it up the price had dropped a lot, so for my 15 dollars I felt like it was worth it! I thought the general consensus was it was ok? --> 79 on Metacritic?


Pachterballs said:
somewhere btw design, development to going gold and release, DmC despite being a high profile release bomed. I think NT had a lot to do with it.
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I may not be the expert to ask, but I found Devil May Cry 4 to be pretty bland and that definitely had an effect on me. I know a few friends who feel the same. DMC has lost a lot of mindshare, it's just not a blockbuster franchise anymore. Only the first one and third one are any good.
 
Pachterballs said:
you've been repeatedly proven wrong. They were more than happy with the sales.

I seriously can't imagine them thinking that teen-ifying dante and make him swear/give the finger, flip around naked while flyign through the air with bits like fish and what not covering his genitalia and having wackyass douchebag dante is the way to "capture the western/GOW3" market.
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Have you forgotten what DMC3 was like? That shit was cheese balls. Then DMC4 came about, with the character taking itself way too seriously. With all those dramatic camera angles.

"Hey lets walk past this fiery monster all bad-ass-like and turn around all dramatic."

At least DmC doesn't have an identity crisis. We know Dante in this game is a douche, and acts like it.

OP, whats your beef with DmC? Its a great game.
 
JayDub said:
Have you forgotten what DMC3 was like? That shit was cheese balls. Then DMC4 came about, with the character taking itself way too seriously. With all those dramatic camera angles.

"Hey lets walk past this fiery monster all bad-ass-like and turn around all dramatic."

At least DmC doesn't have an identity crisis. We know Dante in this game is a douche, and acts like it.

OP, whats your beef with DmC? Its a great game.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pWvKx1x1pk

The Nero parts were pretty super serious tho.

And the re: the DaNTE from DmC being a douche thing... .did we play the same game?
 
Riposte said:
Well, they've improved in my book and that is only judging by the demo. Heavenly Sword and Enslaved were crimes against vidya.
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I bet there are people posting in these threads that think Heavenly Sword > DmC. Most of them probably haven't played the latter beyond the demo though. And in defense of Enslaved...I thought the story was at least interesting.
 
4 already damaged the brand and DmC was a (failed) attempt at fixing it. You don't take 4 years to sell another 600k if people were really hungry for more or satisfied with the product. 4 brought in a lot of people because of being HD, and being the first time it went multiplatform but the game had no tail at all even after the long tail of DMC3.
 
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