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[KojiKnight]

Indeed. I meant it as a paid product. That would be just exploiting modders in a very dirty way.
If they make it free..that's whole different matter.

That's not how it works. Source code alone does not make a game. Assets are a necessary part (the models, textures, sounds, text, etc) and those likely will not be released for free.

This means people would still have to buy the game (assumed legally) to get the assets still.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Yo guys this is DF here, not some obscure indie dev, we are not pulling the plug!!"


That's not actually what they said. They said they wouldn't *silently* pull the plug. i.e. stop development and just not say anything and let it rot with customers unsure as to what was going on.

This is still kinda shady, though.

 

[TemplaerDude]

This is why I have nothing to do with early access or kick starter. It's nice that there are a lot of people out there willing to bite the bullet, but I can't be throwing money at promises. Double Fine has lost a lot of my respect lately and this only catapults it further down.

 

[Prime crotch]

double fine keeps letting me down, maybe that monster hunter ish game brad muir showed is gonna be good

 

[chrominance]

As someone who bought the game but has not yet played it (backlog grr), I'm torn on this. On the one hand, it's shitty that Double Fine came out with a long list of potential updates, did some of them, and then just halted development and said "yeah this is pretty much the final product!" when clearly that isn't the case. On the other hand, and again I'm in no position to judge, if the final product IS a reasonable finishing point (we didn't get to everything on the giant list but we can safely call this a "completed product") then the real question becomes whether it's the game you thought it would be when you paid for it.

It seemed unrealistic to expect a lengthy support period if the game didn't sell well or wasn't selling as well as hoped, or if the money just ran out. That's how game development works. On the other hand, Double Fine could have been more upfront about their expectations. The radio silence from a month ago should have been more like what we got today: hey, we're going to prep a v1 release and then wind down, here's what we're planning to include. And they should have telegraphed sooner and more obviously that the end of support was near.

On the one hand, people have no trouble giving money and support to Dwarf Fortress, which has basically never been finished. On the other hand, Dwarf Fortress is free and development continues years (even a decade?) after the first version was released. On the other other hand, Dwarf Fortress is made by two people living a fairly spartan lifestyle, and Double Fine is not.

I don't know. I'm not angry about this. Maybe a little disappointed.

EDIT: back to finish my thought. I'm not angry, maybe a little disappointed. This does seem like a failed experiment, but I don't know if it changes my opinion of Early Access so much. Does it change my opinion of Double Fine? Yeah. I'm more ambivalent about them now. I'm not going to boycott their games or anything, but Broken Age seems pretty clearly a one-off crowdfunding success to me that they will be hard-pressed to repeat, if DF-9 is any indication (I know Early Access isn't crowdfunding in the same way, but it does have similarities). Ironically, it makes me far less inclined to trust them unless it's in the context of a more traditional publishing arrangement--I'm not worried, for example, about Costume Quest 2.

 

[Interfectum]

I'm beginning to see why they had so much trouble with big name publishers.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Double Fine really needs a hit. None of their games make much money, so they have to always think about the business aspects of even smaller projects. Spacebase probably hasn't generated much revenue in early access, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to keep developing it much further. It absolutely sucks for gamers and for Double Fine's reputation, but you can't run a studio on no money.

Who cares about Double Fine's reputation? This is the danger with something like this, instead of the publisher or the developer taking the risks, now it's the consumers/gamers, this early access thing doesn't seem so great now.

 

[KojiKnight]

Who cares about Double Fine's reputation? This is the danger with something like this, instead of the publisher or the developer taking the risks, now it's the consumers/gamers, this early access thing doesn't seem so great now.

While there is truth to this, there are also quite a few games that we'd never see without it because developers would be unwilling to take the risks on them.

 

[nbthedude]

This seems like a bit of a weird Catch 22:

On one hand, if the game wasn't early access and the projected budget was cut or projected cutbacks deemed it unprofitable to be pursued, the game would have been outright canceled or released as a paired down product from the start.

On the other hand, Greenlight grants it at least the possibility of finding a bigger audience and sustaining itself through a fuller development cycle.

I hear a lot of people in this thread decrying Double Fine, kickstarters or early access in general painting with a broad brush. I think the simple, more reasonable response is this: don't buy any game until it is fully enough developed that you'd be happy if it never recieved another update. I'm sure for some people DF-9 is already there so it makes a good purchase for them.

 

[R1CHO]

By the way, talking about investors and budget this seems relevant (maybe posted already):

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=718691&page=1

Double Fine's Spacebase DF-9 Recoups Investment In Two Weeks

 

[Rapstah]

How many other Amnesia Fortnight (???) projects have they even attempted to get past how far they get in those two weeks? I've only really played the prototype they released on Steam for donors of AF 2012 and that was obviously just a proof of concept. How far did they get with this final version at all?

 

[ProfessorMoran]

While there is truth to this, there are also quite a few games that we'd never see without it because developers would be unwilling to take the risks on them.

It's not your responsibility as a consumer to take the risks, maybe if they're unwilling to assume the risks than we won't see half-baked products like this one.

 

[Aaron]

How many other Amnesia Fortnight (???) projects have they even attempted to get past how far they get in those two weeks? I've only really played the prototype they released on Steam for donors of AF 2012 and that was obviously just a proof of concept. How far did they get with this final version at all?

Here's the latest dev video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkYSir6LWa4&list=UUQMxCuhm25CUS9MZKjZ2ihQ

 

[LiK]

This is why I never support Early Access games.

 

[More_Badass]

It's not your responsibility as a consumer to take the risks, maybe if they're unwilling to assume the risks than we won't see half-baked products like this one.

Supporting an Early Access game is about not assuming the risk, it's being able to take part in and influence the development process. That's the appeal.

And again, many many Early Access games have progressed to full fledged completed releases, aka not half-baked products like this one

 

[nbthedude]

While there is truth to this, there are also quite a few games that we'd never see without it because developers would be unwilling to take the risks on them.

Make that unable. Many simply would not have the funds. Period.

There are countless examples of great early-access and Kickstarter projects at this point. To paint with a broad bunch and conclude that this particular greenlight turned out bad therefore all greenlights are bad is as dumb a generalization as saying "this one videogame is bad therefore all video games are bad."

 

[More_Badass]

How many other Amnesia Fortnight (???) projects have they even attempted to get past how far they get in those two weeks? I've only really played the prototype they released on Steam for donors of AF 2012 and that was obviously just a proof of concept. How far did they get with this final version at all?

On the flip side of all this, Hack N Slash was a Fortnite prototype that was on Early Access and was fully released

 

[Rapstah]

Here's the latest dev video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkYSir6LWa4&list=UUQMxCuhm25CUS9MZKjZ2ihQ

Oh, well, at the very least they were planning to do more with it when they released that video two weeks ago, so it's not like this looks like a malicious thing planned over months.

On the flip side of all this, Hack N Slash was a Fortnite prototype that was on Early Access and was fully released

That's right, even the same year! Hack and Slash was a way weaker concept but I guess they may have had a more experienced team or something on it.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Supporting an Early Access game is about not assuming the risk, it's being able to take part in and influence the development process. That's the appeal.

And again, many many Early Access games have progressed to full fledged completed releases, aka not half-baked products like this one

Then you're saying this is the problem with Double Fine and not the process.

 

[nbthedude]

This is why I never support Early Access games.

I'm glad everyone isn't like you. Otherwise we wouldn't get great polished games like my current game of the year: Divinity: Original Sin, which was both kickstarter AND early access and benefitted tremendously from both.

 

[TheSpoiler]

This seems like a bit of a weird Catch 22:

On one hand, if the game wasn't early access and the projected budget was cut or projected cutbacks deemed it unprofitable to be pursued, the game would have been outright canceled or released as a paired down product from the start.

On the other hand, Greenlight grants it at least the possibility of finding a bigger audience and sustaining itself through a fuller development cycle.

I hear a lot of people in this thread decrying Double Fine, kickstarters or early access in general painting with a broad brush. I think the simple, more reasonable response is this: don't buy any game until it is fully enough developed that you'd be happy if it never recieved another update. I'm sure for some people DF-9 is already there so it makes a good purchase for them.

But for others, it isn't. When you put a long list of shit that you'd like to add, your consumers have every right to be angry, especially with content such as this. Just because some people might end up happy does not excuse the thoughts of those who aren't.

 

[TemplaerDude]

Supporting an Early Access game is about not assuming the risk, it's being able to take part in and influence the development process. That's the appeal.

And again, many many Early Access games have progressed to full fledged completed releases, aka not half-baked products like this one

That's a load of crap, you're putting money into something, it's a risk. That's the extent of your "influence".

 

[Ovek]

Don't buy unfinished games for god sake. Developers will keep raping you and your wallet like this if this ridiculous fucking trend continues.

 

[nbthedude]

That's a load of crap, you're putting money into something, it's a risk. That's the extent of your "influence".

Many early access games take direct feedback from their early users to improve the game. The guys at Larian are on record as talking about the huge improvements to their game as a result of early access.

 

[More_Badass]

Then you're saying this is the problem with Double Fine and not the process.

That's absolutely what I'm saying.

Blame the developer, blame the team, not the process because many other games and many dedicated developers either
1) passed through Early Access and been finished and released
2) or have consistent updates, consistent progress, and regular dev communication.

 

[Baron_Calamity]

What about their comments on the forum a month ago?

A MONTH ago!

Yo guys this is DF here, not some obscure indie dev, we are not pulling the plug!!

A month later, it's done guys!

Obviously something happened between these two dates, but they are acting like this is a totally cool thing to do.

Again, if they can't continue the development they should at the very least be humble and apologize to their fans and consumers.

My gut feeling is DF might be in crisis mode again. After several years with somewhat successful smaller titles, money hat kickstarters and generous contracts to make Kinect games, they have to be getting near the end of their rope. Their "big" current project is a minimum port of a 17 year old game and they are still fairly large for an indie company.

 

[nbthedude]

But for others, it isn't. When you put a long list of shit that you'd like to add, your consumers have every right to be angry, especially with content such as this. Just because some people might end up happy does not excuse the thoughts of those who aren't.

And they specifically noted that they HOPED and could NOT GUARANTEE those features would be implemented in that same list of potential features. There is nothing wrong with early access if people approach it reasonably and either like what they are already getting or fully accept that the project's development could change.

 

[inm8num2]

I'm not a fan of the general idea behind Early Access (or at least, the idea of how it might be abused), but this situation shouldn't necessarily be used as an indictment of EA overall. It's one case of a game not quite working out. There's been some good from EA, like Divinity: Original Sin or the soon to launch Wasteland.

It's too bad DF-9 didn't quite work out, though. Hopefully lessons are learned for future titles.

 

[Amir0x]

Man the more I ruminate on this, the more shady it feels. Double Fine really should institute some sort of minor exchange for people who purchased it, like they get the first episode of Broken Age free or some such.

 

[Archaix]

Fuck it. I'm just done with Double Fine altogether. This was the first time since Brutal Legend that I "preordered" one of their games. Took me almost 5 years to get over that, no chance I'm making that mistake again.


As for Early Access, I was already done with that when I saw other games failing. I said it before, but a single failed EA product that doesn't get finished absolutely destroys the service and makes it worthless.

 

[More_Badass]

That's a load of crap, you're putting money into something, it's a risk. That's the extent of your "influence".

You know how many levels and vehicles and features were added to Turbo Dismount due to the community feedback and suggestions? To Broforce, XenoRaptor, Door Kickers?

And those are only the ones I know personally because I've seen my suggestions implemented into the games

You really don't think that the community has an influence on how a game develops and expands during an Early Access period?

 

[Vargavinter]

I never thought DF would just let this happen and hoping that it would just fade out without anyone noticing.

 

[nbthedude]

I'm not a fan of the general idea behind Early Access (or at least, the idea of how it might be abused), but this situation shouldn't necessarily be used as an indictment of EA overall. It's one case of a game not quite working out. There's been some good from EA, like Divinity: Original Sin or the soon to launch Wasteland.

It's too bad DF-9 didn't quite work out, though. Hopefully lessons are learned for future titles.

Some videogames have turned out bad.

Fuck all videogames. I'm never buying one again.

That seems to be the reasonableness of many people's responses towards EA in this thread.

 

[LiK]

I'm glad everyone isn't like you. Otherwise we wouldn't get great polished games like my current game of the year: Divinity: Original Sin, which was both kickstarter AND early access and benefitted tremendously from both.

I've given a shitload of money to KS to get games made or finished. Divinity was already far into production and EA was done for polish, not work on crucial gameplay systems like most EA games on Steam. Most EA games are unfinished and still in development. Maybe you don't have a problem with paying full price for Alphas but I do.

 

[Steverulez]

Probably already played it but I loved Anno 1404 (not played the latest one that was future). Just a really nice, relaxed game with islands and ship trading and town building.

I've yet to pick up Banished for some weird reason. There was a reason but I can't remember what it was. I want to say I was waiting for a sale but I'm sure it's been on sale or something at least once?

You definitely need to play Banished! On sale (or was) on the Humble store, it lacks an end-game but I found if you expand it'll take you so long to get there you won't care, a really great game.

You've already played Caesar 3/Pharaoh/Zeus I expect?
I've heard Children of the Nile is good but haven't had a chance to play it yet.

Thanks for the responses guys, i'll check out the games you mentioned. I borrowed Children of the Nile off a friend once years ago and didn't really like it iirc but i'll have a look at the others.

 

[Odrion]

Man the more I ruminate on this, the more shady it feels. Double Fine really should institute some sort of minor exchange for people who purchased it, like they get the first episode of Broken Age free or some such.

So for one unfinished game they get another? :V

 

[Parsnip]

After reading this thread, I'm still not sure how much content there actually is. I hope someone who actually owns the game and has played it chimes in with a full list things that they think should be in the game for it to feel "complete".

What double Fine need is an accounter who will make sure that they will handle their budget better.

I think Justin Bailey (COO) has been their "money man" for 2 years or so now.

If you want to shit on Doublefine, ask why there haven't been updates for the second half of Broken Age since... well, actually there haven't been any updates to the second half.

There has been though, at least for backers.

 

[Goldenroad]

You have to realize that Early Access games are a gamble. I know I do. I've bought a couple, including Double Fine's newest one "Hack N Slash", and I feel I've gotten enough fun out of it to be worth my money at this point. If they never technically "finish" the game, I'm still fine with my purchase, but I think you have to go into early access games with that mentality, otherwise just wait until they are finished.

 

[CecilRousso]

and EA was done for polish, not work on crucial gameplay systems like most EA games on Steam.

Good point, and there is where the real problem lies, not with Early Access. The titles having problems are titles that are put there to soon, like this. It was just to basic when it was launched, and it really should have launched in the state it is now, or perhaps even more fleshed out, instead of playing catch up like this.

RPS pointed this out in their impressions of the EA version of Invisible Inc from Klei, that it had robust game mechanics already in the game, whereas games like Space Base still kinda struggles with what it wants to be.

It's early access done wrong, and while I think Double Fine boycott calls are hyperbole, Double Fine (and other devs) need to learn from this.

 

[deadfolk]

You know if you're looking for a good sci fi colony building sim/management game, you can't wrong with RimWorld. Game's on Alpha 6 and the dev has delivered with every release so far, each update adding big game-changing features.
http://rimworldgame.com

If I remember correctly, the Kickstarter was 1000% funded

I second this. Great so far, but beware...it's still under development, and afaik is developed by one (albeit very talented) guy. If you're worried about buying unfinished games after the DF-9 debacle. you should exercise caution.

 

[Sloane]

Good point, and there is where the real problem lies, not with Early Access. The titles having problems are titles that are put there to soon, like this. It was just to basic when it was launched, and it really should have launched in the state it is now, or perhaps even more fleshed out, instead of playing catch up like this.

True. I assume they were hoping for it to become the next Prison Architect or whatever and when that didn't happen, they started to abandon it. Thing is, the original release was so barebones that it was just impossible it to recommend to anyone, but it never felt like they were actually trying to fix that misconception -- so the game was probably doomed from the very beginning.

On the other hand, according to that forum post last month, only 3 people were still working on that game full time, but DF couldn't even afford that anymore? That's... well.

 

[CecilRousso]

True. I assume they were hoping for it to become the next Prison Architect or whatever and when that didn't happen, they started to abandon it. Thing is, the original release was so barebones that it was just impossible it to recommend to anyone, but it never felt like they were actually trying to fix that misconception -- so the game was probably doomed from the very beginning.

On the other hand, according to that forum post last month, only 3 people were still working on that game full time, but DF couldn't even afford that anymore? That's... well.

Three developers full time costs DF somewhere about $30-45k each month.

 

[deleted]

True. I assume they were hoping for it to become the next Prison Architect or whatever and when that didn't happen, they started to abandon it. Thing is, the original release was so barebones that it was just impossible it to recommend to anyone, but it never felt like they were actually trying to fix that misconception -- so the game was probably doomed from the very beginning.

On the other hand, according to that forum post last month, only 3 people were still working on that game full time, but DF couldn't even afford that anymore? That's... well.

Maybe it's not that they could not afford to develop that game, but had to use the manpower to get Broken Age Part 2 to the finish line this year. The last episode made it clear, that this was a priority (they were also looking into finances for a new programmer) and not making it would tarnish their name (maybe as much or more than putting Spacebase on hold?!).
Maybe they thought it would matter less if they used their devs for a bigger project then miss this year with Part 2.

 

[TheSpoiler]

And they specifically noted that they HOPED and could NOT GUARANTEE those features would be implemented in that same list of potential features. There is nothing wrong with early access if people approach it reasonably and either like what they are already getting or fully accept that the project's development could change.

I never said there was anything wrong with early access. Shit will change, and that's fine.

But the consumer has every right to be mad at a list that was just dropped because of management. It's not outright stated that those things were on the way. Because of that, it's not false advertisement, but Tim isn't some noobie developer, and I'm sure he knows the goodwill is being squandered on stupid shit like this.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Apply Monkey Islands own sage-like wisdom to all future Double Fine products.

 

[Sloane]

Three developers full time costs DF somewhere about $30-45k each month.

I know how much it might cost, my point was, that it's a comparably small team.

Maybe they thought it would matter less if they used their devs for a bigger project then miss this year with Part 2.

Pretty sure they said it would be a miracle if it came out in 2014.

 

[Stallion Free]

Has anyone who has actually played the game picked through that original list and highlighted what actually didn't make it from that list into the game?

 

[JayEH]

sigh, can't trust anyone these days.

 

[deleted]

Pretty sure they said it would be a miracle if it came out in 2014.

They also said they would cut back on the original vision if they thought they can make it happen.

I don't think it will be happening neither, but I can see the significance for the whole of DF to bring the game out before this years holiday steam sale.
Have it review well, have it out by years end and it is destined to sell much more than any other time of the year - maybe this could even be the sweet spot for this game and it will never sell more at full price than during this period.

But we will have to wait and see if they adress that in the next episode.

 

[cRIPticon]

And I thought this would be safe because of Double Fine. Lesson learned, never buy another game even remotely related to them.

Seriously? Makes no sense. Early access is exactly that: early access to a game in process. You didn't get early access to a completed product.

If the game could not meet its design goals, feature list got to big, cost more to make than originally thought, etc. what would you do?

If anyone purchased the early access build and got something they could mess about with, they they got what they paid for. But to say that you would never purchase a game remotely related to them, finished, because they made a decision regarding a game they felt they could not complete? I don't understand this logic at all.