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[drtomoe123]

I don't think breaking through ideology is as simple as you seem to suggest. We're talking about people who are stubborn about the way they see the world, it's going to take much more than a person/event/thing helping them realize the errors of their way. We're talking about breaking someone's viewpoint of the world, and that's very sensitive considering one's life experiences built up to that kind of thinking. That's not to say there haven't been people who broke free from poisonous ideology. The point is that no matter if you're pro-death/anti-death, at the end of the day, you still have to deal with people who are so deeply entrenched in that kind of toxic thinking that it's impossible to rehabilitate them back into society. It's not something that can be easily corrected, so how are you supposed to solve that problem?

It may not be simple, but I think it's possible (just like I think it's possible to move past things like racism and sexism). At their core, ideologies are built around interpreting certain beliefs as true -- unfortunately, in a lot of situations, these "truths" are solidified through experiences, especially traumatic ones. Isn't believing that people are so entrenched in their toxic viewpoints that they're beyond help or rehabilitation in itself one of those self-fulfilling truths? Everyone (and I truly believe that this applies to every single person on this planet, no matter what they do) has some sense of humanity, even if it's buried deep inside for whatever reason. We just have to believe that it's there or else we won't even be able to recognize it when it's staring us straight in the face.

I agree, it's very difficult to break through these ways of thinking, but if anyone truly believes that people and society can truly change for the better, we have to believe that it's possible or else any change we do get will just be temporary.

 

[Piggus]

I feel the same way I feel about the Boston bomber. Let the shitstain rot away for the rest of his sad excuse for a life.

If--like the Boston bomber and others like him--he ends up in ADX, he'll be glad he was granted death.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Yup. Should have got life in jail.

Roof may thrive in jail as the leader of a white supremacist gang.

 

[Audioboxer]

Far from it. There have been numerous cases of individuals taking up to an hour or more to die from lethal injections in the last few years while suffering from severe pain. In part, this is due to a drug shortage (particularly of sodium piothental) which has forced states to begin experimenting with alternative anaesthetics.

Another GAFer said this to me in which case if it happens in more cases than not then there is a moral argument why the fuck are we injecting things in people we know don't do their job correctly (or at least from what you guys are saying are underfunded/poorly mixed and a recipe for disaster)? A death sentence isn't supposed to be a torture sentence.

If a state cannot humanely carry out a death sentence with 95%+ precision then it should be argued it shouldn't be carrying out a death sentence. That has zero to do with Roof, more to do with us evaluating the methods in which we use to carry out supposedly morally taking a life.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Lot of people seem to think that legalised torture is a correct sentence in here

 

[Infinite]

Lot of people seem to think that legalised torture is a correct sentence in here

I don't really give a fuck. He deserves to die

 

[michaelius]

Another win for retribution, another loss for humanity.

One day we'll figure out that killing people doesn't undo their crimes or the hurt they caused.

No but it makes sure they won't kill anyone in the future.

Lifetime in prison gives no such certainity.

In Poland we had some extremly disgustin criminals (along the line of pedophilia against 4 year old kids + murder) sentenced to lifetime during the time where we were Soviet vassal state.

Then when we regained indendependence some idiots in parliament made an amnestia and changed those lifetime sentences into 25 years - now those people started leaving prisons and they already commited some sexual crimes despite being under near constant surveilance by police.

 

[Spuck-uk]

I don't really give a fuck. He deserves to die

How's it go? 'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind'?

 

[Infinite]

How's it go? 'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind'?

Like I said I don't give a fuck. I hope he burns

 

[Clefargle]

Don't like the death penalty, but it could happen to better people I guess...

 

[MisterFalcon]

How's it go? 'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind'?

Is that like 'locking up kidnappers makes us all prisoners' or 'fining thieves makes us all poor' ?

 

[Gloggins]

I wonder what would cost more in the long run, the appeal process of a death penalty or dumping this turd in a cell for the rest of its life.

 

[Audioboxer]

I have always been torn over death sentences, on one hand why does another human being deserve to live after taking another human beings life especially in cold blooded murder? In this case, 9 lives.

On the other side, is it the correct thing to do, taking a life for taking a life? Justifying murder with murder?

I don't know, I am conflicted, if someone murdered someone I loved I don't think I would have the ability to forgive them, I would want them to die so they could feel the suffering I feel for the loss and the suffering the people I lost felt but on the other hand is it justifiable? Or does that just make me a monster for wanting those people dead?

My overall thought is that a long prison sentence where a person has to think about what they have done for the rest of their life is more tortuous but then what if they always lack the empathy to feel guilty about their crimes? Is it really a punishment? Or is it just a way to feed them and keep them sheltered for the remainder of their lives?

I know prisons are vile places but still, I don't know, like I said, I am confused.

It doesn't make you a monster for feeling that inside. However it's the reason our imperfect law system tends to try and have people not linked to, and obviously not family, stand over coming to a conclusion for justice. If we just had a world where family got to make their mind up in the moment we'd have the wild wild west.

Forgiveness as a concept often takes time, and it is often not so much about forgiving the criminal, but forgiving yourself from your feelings of hate, resentment and loss so you can move on with your life.

Remember as well for capital punishment we need to administer some sort of death. Until it could be fully done by AI a human being or human beings need to be responsible for "killing" someone. Sure they know that is part of their job, but it's still the side effect to capital punishment. I guess even if robots did do it one day, we'd as their "masters" still be issuing the command.

 

[entremet]

How's it go? 'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind'?

I mean the guy needs to pay somehow. Should we just tell him, "don't massacre nine innocents next time!"

In this case it's the State that is administrating the punishment.

 

[Systolique]

What you people who live in countries which still advocates death penalty need to understand is that it makes you no better than the murderers you execute.

You are no gods, you don't get to choose who lives and who dies.

This thread is sickening to read, especially those posts with weak rhetoric ; being against death penalty and weeping for the judged are two completely different things -- I hate this guy with every single cell I'm constituted with, yet I will not wish for his death.

 

[entremet]

What you people who live in countries which still advocates death penalty need to understand is that it makes you no better than the murderers you execute.

You are no gods, you don't get to choose who lives and who dies.

This thread is sickening to read, especially those posts with weak rhetoric ; being against death penalty and weeping for the judged are two completely different things -- I hate this guy with every single cell I'm constituted with, yet I will not wish for his death.

I'm anti the Death Penalty due to bias and wrongful convictions.

However, Roof clearly murdered 9 innocent people and he wrote his own punishment doing that.

I'm not using this vile man as a springboard for campaigning against it. He deserves death as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm anti the Death Penalty due to bias and wrongful convictions.

However, Roof clearly murdered 9 innocent people and he wrote his own punishment doing that.

I'm not using this vile man as a springboard for campaigning against it. He deserves death as far as I'm concerned.

But you're either in or out. It's like defending free speech. Often you have to take the good with the bad. Hence why objectively here to debate the death penalty it's not so much about Roof, but the fact the act of the death penalty has been sanctioned to be carried out again. That is why it gets spoken about, it's another time it is going to be legally carried out.

If you start getting into well some people deserve it, then how do we go about drawing up the almost insanely complex reasoning we need to have for who gets executed? Is it 5 killings and above? (basically some arbitrary number we set) All Church killings? When families grieve the most? When the nation grieves the most? Racist killings? These are many of the questions surrounding the morality of taking a life that come up as to execute someone you need to justify it. Often the family of the victim of a killer who only strikes once is just as upset and distraught as the killer who manages to strike multiple times. There's a very real chance that one family want the killer executed just as badly as the 7 families of another killer. Then we come in and say well, sorry, we're not executing the killer of one person, they're not evil enough on our pre-set scale of how evil you need to be to be executed. 7 families? Yes, that person is to be killed by the state.

Hence why capital punishment is severely debated and not legal everywhere.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

What you people who live in countries which still advocates death penalty need to understand is that it makes you no better than the murderers you execute.

You are no gods, you don't get to choose who lives and who dies.

This thread is sickening to read, especially those posts with weak rhetoric ; being against death penalty and weeping for the judged are two completely different things -- I hate this guy with every single cell I'm constituted with, yet I will not wish for his death.

I honestly don't care about whether you are sickened or "we aren't god" or blah blah blah. I am not gonna get up and post outrage over a guy who went to a black church and mowed them down while they invited him into their community is getting the death penalty.

This guy isn't worth the god damn effort. I'm not moral grand standing his right life because I really do not give a fuck if he lives or dies. Trash like this is not deserving of the consideration. You wanna be high and mighty. All the piwer to ya. But life in prison is not some higher ground. It's state sponsored punishment and it isn't designed for empathy. It is entirely about retribution.

 

[entremet]

But you're either in or out. It's like defending free speech. Often you have to take the good with the bad. Hence why objectively here to debate the death penalty it's not so much about Roof, but the fact the act of the death penalty has been sanctioned to be carried out again.

If you start getting into well some people deserve it, then how do we go about drawing up the almost insanely complex reasoning we need to have for who gets executed? Is it 5 killings and above? (basically some arbitrary number we set) All Church killings? When families grieve the most? When the nation grieves the most? Racist killings? These are many of the questions surrounding the morality of taking a life that come up as to execute someone you need to justify it. Often the family of the victim of a killer who only strikes once is just as upset and distraught as the killer who manages to strike multiple times. There's a very real chance that one family want the killer executed just as badly as the 7 families of another killer. Then we come in and say well, sorry, we're not executing the killer of one person, they're not evil enough on our pre-set scale of how evil you need to be to be executed.

Hence why capital punishment is severely debated and not legal everywhere.

I disagree.

Humans are not robots. We don't follow perfect logic. 100 percent philosophical consistency is not something we do very well. Many of us aim to.

But you not asking the right the question either.

If it was in my power to eradicate the DP, I would.

Most of us are just saying that Roof getting the the DP is gonna happen. We can't change it and we're not feeling sorry for him.

Moreover, as I said before, rotting in solitary for life is even less humane. If we want to go down moral grounds.

 

[Audioboxer]

I disagree.

Humans are not robots. We don't follow perfect logic. 100 percent philosophical consistency is not something we do very well. Many us aim to.

But you not asking the right the question either.

If it was in my power to eradicate the DP, I would.

Most of us are just saying that Roof getting the the DP is gonna happen. We can't change it and we're not feeling sorry for him.

Moreover, as I said before, rotting in solitary for life is even less humane. If we want to go down moral grounds.

In or out as in you support it or not. To say "I support it in some cases..." is to be in. It can't be made illegal in a country, but a country say every now and then it's legal because "x".

You've clarified what I meant anyway when saying

If it was in my power to eradicate the DP, I would.

Moreover, as I said before, rotting in solitary for life is even less humane. If we want to go down moral grounds.

Solitary should only really be used for people who are a threat to themselves or the prison. However, debates around life-long solitary are for another topic. Personally, I don't support it unless as I said it is 110% needed. I will be working with mental health so I know the serious damage solitary can cause when abused. Often those in solitary in many prisons get totally fucked over, in that there's not even an acceptable amount of interaction by the staff/professionals to try and stave off mental issues coming in incredibly quickly. It's an incredibly difficult situation to balance and handle, but if you've watched any prison documentaries 1 hour a week in a cage outside, even if any time outside at all, is not enough to try and combat mental deterioration.

Having a "life" in prison is still a life. It's a terribly shitty one but its punishment for something you've done to deem yourself a threat or not worthy of having the freedoms all of us do. It's our imperfect way of trying to separate those from society that do irreversible damage, but it's not the same as killing them so their life totally ends.

 

[entremet]

In or out as in you support it or not. To say "I support it in some cases..." is to be in. It can't be made illegal in a country, but a country say every now and then it's legal because "x".

You've clarified what I meant anyway when saying





Solitary should only really be used for people who are a threat to themselves or the prison. However, debates around life-long solitary are for another topic. Personally, I don't support it unless as I said it is 110% needed. I will be working with mental health so I know the serious damage solitary can cause when abused.

Having a "life" in prison is still a life. It's a terribly shitty one but its punishment for something you've done to deem yourself a threat or not worthy of having the freedoms all of us do. It's our imperfect way of trying to separate those from society that do irreversible damage, but it's not the same as killing them so their life totally ends.

I think that's the train of thought of most here.

The DP sucks, but we can't affect it in this case. The sentence was given, nor is anyone gonna protest to save the life of this vile POS.

 

[NeonBlack]

And so he becomes a martyr.

A martyr to who? And how would being in jail for life prevent that?

 

[Systolique]

Moreover, as I said before, rotting in solitary for life is even less humane. If we want to go down moral grounds.

Don't assume not being for barbarous methods of killing implies wishing for "solitary for life", this is nonsense.
You can be cut from society without being put in solitary.

The idea is to heal people with mental disorders, not enforce them and break their very consciousness by making them spend their life in those solitary cells.

 

[Staf]

Good.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think that's the train of thought of most here.

The DP sucks, but we can't affect it in this case. The sentence was given, nor is anyone gonna protest to save the life of this vile POS.

That's the in our out predicament. It doesn't matter who is getting sentenced to death or however horrific their crimes, you can't really stop saying you're against it if emotionally every now and then you are going to sit back and say "well, this person is a huge POS so I'll sit back on this one".

Hence why the debate is really about the act of capital punishment, rather than the individual. This is a high profile case though, so understandably many are getting involved now where in general their daily news might not have had other death penalty cases filter through to them. I mean it says online it is legal in 31 states, so some will live in states where it isn't legal.

It's the way American goes, in that state-level laws can be different state to state. Many other countries simply have to subscribe to in our out, as in legal for the country, or illegal. Which undoubtedly makes it a bit more complex in America.

This is how it looks on a global scale, far more countries with it abolished now

 

[entremet]

Don't assume not being for barbarous methods of killing implies wishing for "solitary for life", this is nonsense.
You can be cut from society without being put in solitary.

The idea is to heal people with mental disorders, not enforce them and break their very consciousness by making them spend their life in those solitary cells.

Does Roof have mental disorders, though? I'm sure he was diagnosed by professionals during his processing and charges.

Not getting your argument here. Millions suffer with mental disorders and don't massacre innocents.

Again, I'm anti DP, but there needs to be punitive measures for what he did.

He doesn't need healing. Sorry.

That's the in our out predicament. It doesn't matter who is getting sentenced to death or however horrific their crimes, you can't really stop saying you're against it if emotionally every now and then you are going to sit back and say "well, this person is a huge POS so I'll sit back on this one".

Hence why the debate is really about the act of capital punishment, rather than the individual. This is a high profile case though, so understandably many are getting involved now where in general their daily news might not have had other death penalty cases filter through to them. I mean it says online it is legal in 31 states, so some will live in states where it isn't legal.

It's the way American goes, in that state-level laws can be different state to state. Many other countries simply have to subscribe to in our out, as in legal for the country, or illegal. Which undoubtedly makes it a bit more complex in America.

This is how it looks on a global scale

I get this.

However, this case does involve the fate of one infamous man.

It is very personal and this the reason it's not a wholly academic discussion.

Those are fine, but don't be surprised that people will have real human reactions beyond the academic.

 

[Systolique]

Hence why the debate is really about the act of capital punishment, rather than the individual.

You should have typed this bolded and in capital letters, those "pick & choose who dies" guys don't seem to even begin to understand this idea.

 

[Audioboxer]

Does Roof have mental disorders, though? I'm sure he was diagnosed by professionals during his processing and charges.

Not getting your argument here. Millions suffer with mental disorders and don't massacre innocents.

Again, I'm anti DP, but there needs to be punitive measures for what he did.

He doesn't need healing. Sorry.

I get this.

However, this case does involve the fate of one infamous man.

It is very personal and this the reason it's not a wholly academic discussion.

Those are fine, but don't be surprised that people will have real human reactions beyond the academic.

As I said to Phil0sophy it doesn't make anyone a monster for having feelings, but our systems of law and punishment do largely have to be academic, scientific and based on our best principals of morality and dealing with humanity.

You should have typed this bolded and in capital letters, those "pick & choose who dies" guys don't seem to even begin to understand this idea.

Maybe a bit harsh, many are just posting emotionally. Which is understandable. I think most do understand, right now though feelings trump wanting to have a debate around the death penalty. It's a tough one for many, and as a few have said its legal in America so until that changes if ever, it can be carried out and will be carried out.

 

[entremet]

As I said to Phil0sophy it doesn't make anyone a monster for having feelings, but our systems of law and punishment do largely have to be academic, scientific and based on our best principals of morality and dealing with humanity.

I'm just saying there are different strands to a discussion.

It can be personal and intellectual. Right now, many are choosing the personal angle. And that's fine. Not everyone wants to discuss this academically.

Academically we are in lockstep.

Emotions aren't a bad thing. We're human after all and Roof's act we're incredibly vile.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

How's it go? 'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind'?

That quote was always a poorly thought out or overly simplified load of shit.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm just saying there are different strands to a discussion.

It can be personal and intellectual. Right now, many are choosing the personal angle. And that's fine. Not everyone wants to discuss this academically.

Academically we are in lockstep.

Yeah that is totally okay on a messageboard. That remark is more that those at the top of the decision making do need to discuss things academically. It's why as I said above we don't appoint a juror of family and friends in a court case. Emotions have to come second in Law most of the time. Especially when talking about the debates up top of whether government sanctioned executions are the way to handle criminals. America itself is obviously split on this as as I said above it seems to only be legal in 31 states. Which is a majority, but it's not the whole country.

 

[MisterFalcon]

This is how it looks on a global scale, far more countries with it abolished now

But the majority of the world's population live in a country that carries out the death penalty.

 

[Audioboxer]

But the majority of the world's population live in a country that carries out the death penalty.

China? I guess you mean America, but yeah, China has the largest population and unsurprisingly seems to execute the most


Total executed(2015)

China 1,000+
Iran 977+
Pakistan 326
Saudi Arabia 158+
United States 28
Iraq 26+
Somalia 25+
Egypt 22+
Indonesia 14
Chad 10
Yemen 8+
Taiwan 6
Sudan 5+
Bangladesh 4
Singapore 4
Japan 3
Sudan 3
Jordan 2
Oman 2
Afghanistan 1
India 1
United Arab Emirates 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country

 

[Systolique]

But the majority of the world's population live in a country that carries out the death penalty.

I am not sure about the pertinence of this argument, when most countries that still enable death penalty use it to kill people they don't like instead of people that are guilty of the most despicable crimes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/countries-that-still-have-the-death-penalty/

 

[Spuck-uk]

Like I said I don't give a fuck. I hope he burns

..and becomes a Martyr. Working out well in the middle east, that is.

 

[Spuck-uk]

That quote was always a poorly thought out or overly simplified load of shit.

Much like the death sentence.

 

[Systolique]

Does Roof have mental disorders, though? I'm sure he was diagnosed by professionals during his processing and charges.

Not getting your argument here. Millions suffer with mental disorders and don't massacre innocents.

Again, I'm anti DP, but there needs to be punitive measures for what he did.

He doesn't need healing. Sorry.

And so continues the cycle of death you Americans wish for, don't change a thing please it's all going so well.

So you think people are born murderers?
You think this guy is a perfectly stable human being, and he just got struck by an unlucky thought of mass murder?

No, let's not try to heal people, be it before or after they've done something wrong.
Let's just sit there and kill them when they started killing, that's how you embrace and glorify the fabric of society ; you don't try to understand the issue at the source nor try and resolve it afterwards, you just cut off what you don't like and don't look back.

I'm not sure what is the most saddening thing to read ; your continuous emphasis on being anti-DP yet advocating for it, or your inability to understand what anti-DP stand for and the mental state of people that choose to kill.

 

[UCBooties]

I oppose the Death Penalty for a number of reasons but I am conflicted in cases of clear guilt such as this. I suppose I am having a hard time overcoming the instinct for retribution.

 

[jeenaudx]

Humanity was a mistake it's nothing but trash.

 

[The Kree]

I oppose the Death Penalty for a number of reasons but I am conflicted in cases of clear guilt such as this. I suppose I am having a hard time overcoming the instinct for retribution.

I'm not conflicted. Killing people who kill people to dissuade people from killing people seems hypocritical, and in more practical terms the death penalty is unnecessary costly to the state and isn't guaranteed to be totally humane.

But at the same time, I won't lose any sleep over this particular instance.

 

[linkandzelda]

The death penalty is barbaric. He, and others guilty of similarly heinous crimes, should get life in prison and nothing more.

.

 

[Audioboxer]

And so continues the cycle of death you Americans wish for, don't change a thing please it's all going so well.

So you think people are born murderers?
You think this guy is a perfectly stable human being, and he just got struck by an unlucky thought of mass murder?

No, let's not try to heal people, be it before or after they've done something wrong.
Let's just sit there and kill them when they started killing, that's how you embrace and glorify the fabric of society ; you don't try to understand the issue at the source nor try and resolve it afterwards, you just cut off what you don't like and don't look back.

I'm not sure what is the most saddening thing to read ; your continuous emphasis on being anti-DP yet advocating for it, or your inability to understand what anti-DP stand for and the mental state of people that choose to kill.

There's actually a lot less executions in America than I thought, and I done some more digging after the 28 in 2015

Total since 1976 (including 2016): 1442 Executions in 2015: 28
Executions in 2016: 20 Executions in 2014: 35

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year

20 in 2016. Heck China has done nearly more in 1 year than America since 1976... smh.

There's a list of the states here and what can get you the penalty

Alabama - Intentional murder with 18 aggravating factors (Ala. Stat. Ann. 13A-5-40(a)(1)-(18)).

Arizona - First-degree murder, including pre-meditated murder and felony murder, accompanied by at least 1 of 14 aggravating factors (A.R.S. § 13-703(F)). [First-degree murder is defined in A.R.S. § 13-1105. Aggravating and mitigating circumstances are set forth at A.R.S. § 13-751.]

Arkansas - Capital murder (Ark. Code Ann. 5-10-101) with a finding of at least 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances; treason.

California - First-degree murder with special circumstances; sabotage; train wrecking causing death; treason; perjury causing execution of an innocent person; fatal assault by a prisoner serving a life sentence.

[California's death penalty provisions are set forth in Cal. Penal Code §§ 187-199. Section 187 defines first-degree murder. Section 190.2 sets forth the "special circumstances" that make a first-degree murder death-eligible.]

Colorado - First-degree murder with at least 1 of 17 aggravating factors; first-degree kidnapping resulting in death; treason. [First-degree murder is defined in C.R.S. § 18-3-102. First-degree kidnapping is defined in C.R.S. § 18-3-301. Aggravating factors are set forth in C.R.S. § 18-1.3-1201(5).]

Connecticut - [Abolished the death penalty in 2012]

Delaware - First-degree murder (11 Del. C. § 636) with at least 1 statutory aggravating circumstance (11 Del. C. § 4209).

Florida - First-degree murder; felony murder; capital drug trafficking; capital sexual battery.

[The U.S. Supreme Court declared Florida's capital sentencing statute unconstitutional in January 2016 in Hurst v. Florida. However, the portions of the statute defining capital murder and aggravating circumstances were unaffected by that ruling. First-degree murder is defined in Fl. Stat. 782.04. Aggravating circumstances are now set forth in Fl. Stat. 921.141(6).]

Georgia - Murder with aggravating circumstances; kidnapping with bodily injury or ransom when the victim dies; aircraft hijacking; treason.

Idaho - First-degree murder with aggravating factors; first-degree kidnapping; perjury resulting in the execution of an innocent person.

Illinois - [Abolished the death penalty in 2011]

Indiana - Murder with 16 aggravating circumstances (IC 35-50-2-9).

Kansas - Capital murder with 8 aggravating circumstances (KSA 21-3439, KSA 21-4625, KSA 21-4636).

Kentucky - Capital murder with the presence of at least one statutory aggravating circumstance; capital kidnapping (KRS 532.025).

Louisiana - First-degree murder; treason (La. R.S. 14:30 and 14:113).

Maryland - [Abolished the death penalty in 2013]

Mississippi - Capital murder (Miss. Code Ann. § 97-3-19(2)); aircraft piracy (Miss. Code Ann. § 97-25-55(1)).

Missouri - First-degree murder (565.020 RSMO 2000).

Montana - Capital murder with 1 of 9 aggravating circumstances (Mont. Code Ann. § 46-18-303); aggravated kidnapping; felony murder; aggravated sexual intercourse without consent (Mont. Code Ann. § 45-5-503).

Nebraska - [Abolished the death penalty in 2015]; formerly, First-degree murder with a finding of at least 1 statutorily-defined aggravating circumstance.

Nevada - First-degree murder with at least 1 of 15 aggravating circumstances (NRS 200.030, 200.033, 200.035).

New Hampshire - Murder committed in the course of rape, kidnapping, drug crimes, or burglary; killing of a police officer, judge or prosecutor; murder for hire; murder by an inmate while serving a sentence of life without parole (RSA 630:1, RSA 630:5).

New Mexico - [abolished the death penalty in 2009]

New York* - [New York abolished the death penalty in 2007]

North Carolina - First-degree murder (NCGS §14-17) with the finding of at least 1 of 11 statutory aggravating circumstances (NCGS §15A-2000).

Ohio - Aggravated murder with at least 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances (O.R.C. secs. 2903.01, 2929.02, and 2929.04).

Oklahoma - First-degree murder in conjunction with a finding of at least 1 of 8 statutorily-defined aggravating circumstances.

Oregon - Aggravated murder (ORS 163.095).

Pennsylvania - First-degree murder with 18 aggravating circumstances.

South Carolina - Murder with 1 of 12 aggravating circumstances (§ 16-3-20(C)(a))

South Dakota - First-degree murder with 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances.

Tennessee - First-degree murder (Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-202) with 1 of 16 aggravating circumstances (Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-204).

Texas - Criminal homicide with 1 of 9 aggravating circumstances (Tex. Penal Code § 19.03).

Utah - Aggravated murder (76-5-202, Utah Code Annotated).

Virginia - First-degree murder with 1 of 15 aggravating circumstances (VA Code § 18.2-31).

Washington - Aggravated first-degree murder.

Wyoming - First-degree murder; murder during the commission of sexual assault, sexual abuse of a minor, arson, robbery, burglary, escape, resisting arrest, kidnapping, or abuse of a minor under 16. (W.S.A. § 6-2-101(a))

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/crimes-punishable-death-penalty

A lot of them seem to be the act of murder, not even an abritary number (such as a spree). Which begs the question how much emotion is coming into some of these decisions? A bigger more high profile case and more chance for capital punishment? Should it work that way? That's for debating. Some states above undoubtedly seem more strict or specific than others.

 

[entremet]

And so continues the cycle of death you Americans wish for, don't change a thing please it's all going so well.

So you think people are born murderers?
You think this guy is a perfectly stable human being, and he just got struck by an unlucky thought of mass murder?

No, let's not try to heal people, be it before or after they've done something wrong.
Let's just sit there and kill them when they started killing, that's how you embrace and glorify the fabric of society ; you don't try to understand the issue at the source nor try and resolve it afterwards, you just cut off what you don't like and don't look back.

I'm not sure what is the most saddening thing to read ; your continuous emphasis on being anti-DP yet advocating for it, or your inability to understand what anti-DP stand for and the mental state of people that choose to kill.

Roof lost that when he decided to kill nine people.

So you don't believe in any punishment?

 

[MisterFalcon]

I am not sure about the pertinence of this argument, when most countries that still enable death penalty use it to kill people they don't like instead of people that are guilty of the most despicable crimes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/countries-that-still-have-the-death-penalty/

The argument is used that the death penalty of wrong because a majority of the countries do not have it. And that is a weak one considering how China and India are way more influential then Kiribati and San Marino. A world popular vote would most likely be in favour of the death penalty.

 

[Audioboxer]

The argument is used that the death penalty of wrong because a majority of the countries do not have it. And that is a weak one considering how China and India are way more influential then Kiribati and San Marino. A world popular vote would most likely be in favour of the death penalty.

So a ... popular vote on the death penalty? In this case I'm not necessarily quite sure how useful that would be given that outside of America some of the worst totalitarian/authoritarian governments that treat their population like shit are the ones that use it. Like China, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, also all at the top of the lists for executions. Which should be no surprise. There's probably quite a few women being executed in these countries, not to mention those for having the wrong religion or political beliefs.

I think it's better to look at the amount of countries who have made it illegal rather than playing with the populations. I don't even know if in these countries you'd even get most of the people in favour, it's just they don't have any say as the governments there do whatever they want and if you disagree, well, you might get killed. America is nothing like that, but the point I'm making is some fallacies in your popular vote argument being in favour of the death penalty.

 

[Ron Mexico]

A lot of them seem to be the act of murder, not even an abritary number (such as a spree). Which begs the question how much emotion is coming into some of these decisions? A bigger more high profile case and more chance for capital punishment? Should it work that way? That's for debating. Some states above undoubtedly seem more strict or specific than others.

So I agree here with the bolded and there are certainly issues with capital punishment as it stands today.

While I think it would be impossible to thread the needle perfectly, I had one thought-- Roof was sentenced in this case in Federal court, not state. Same as Tsarnaev (Boston Marathon) and McVeigh (Oklahoma City) amongst others. It's still tricky as crossing state lines(Gabrion), or committing a crime in a National Park (Rodriguez) can lead to a Federal case, but keeping capital punishment at the federal level might be the closest thing to a compromise that can be had.

 

[Systolique]

A world popular vote would most likely be in favour of the death penalty.

What a naive view of the world, ask people that are getting death sentenced because of the way they think or are if they're in favor of it.

Can't believe someone wrote this.

Roof lost that when he decided to kill nine people.

???

So you don't believe in any punishment?

When has life in jail stopped being a punishment?

 

[Xe4]

I don't think anyone is using the Roof case as a "springboard" about the death penalty. But those who are saying "I'm against capital punishment, but in this case it's OK" are not against the death penalty. You're against the death penalty for all cases but a few. It's a fine position to have, but you're going to open yourself for questions such as where to draw the line. Every piece of evidence I've seen of people "drawing the line" of him being guilty I have also seen used as "clear cut evidence" for many who were innocently accused of a crime.

Undoubtedly, Roof is guilty, there is simply far too much evidence to say otherwise. However, people have been put on death row for what seems like equal evidence to the common person (people have been coerced into a confession, witnesses have mis-seen people, evidence has been forged or taken down incorrectly, etc etc) that I cannot see any sort of line you could draw where you can execute Roof and people like him and not execute those who are innocent.

That's not even to get into the morality of the death penalty as a society, either. That's a whole other topic, and one equally pertinent to this thread, although somewhat harder to defend, given the nature of his crimes (though I still will use this argument). In my opinion, even if there was a perfectly 0% chance of an innocent person getting killed, I'd still be against the death penalty. I don't think it as just for a society to be ending peoples lives, regardless of the nature of their crimes.

I disagree that rehabilitation is pointless for someone convicted of a life sentence. I truly don't think it's possible for us to treat someone like Roof (although some day it will be) but if someone could be rehabilitated it would be better for there overall quality of life even if they remain in prison.

This is true again. No matter what the outcome, Roof would never society again, and that is absolutely for the best. There is no way he would ever be safe on the streets. That is not to say there is no way we could rehabilitate him, however. His life could be made so that one day he could try to make up for the damage he did. We certainly owe it to those who died to try. The purpose of prison should never be about revenge, which is the only thing the death penalty exists to extol, despite what advocates of it would have you believe.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

If it was cheaper to execute him I'd be for it but it's going to end up costing taxpayers more to give him the death penalty assuming it goes all the way through the appeals process. This kid murdered 9 people because of the color of their skin. Just get rid of him in the cheapest way possible.

 

[cpp_is_king]

How's it go? 'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind'?

Life in prison is more torturous than execution.

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone in the world is not a murderer