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Eurogamer "Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora is another PS5 Pro patch that arguably looks worse than the standard PS5 version. What's going on?"

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch



In this week's DF Direct Weekly, we talk about the mooted PlayStation handheld (spoilers: it won't run native PS5 games) but it's our second news topic of the week I'll be writing about in more depth today. Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora has arrived on PlayStation 5 Pro and its spec points look impressive - you're getting the quality mode visuals of the base console version at 60fps. There's just one problem: the Pro version looks a lot worse than the standard console's quality mode and even its performance mode has some quality advantages over the Pro version. In which case, what's the point?


We should expect to see some outlier software with the arrival of any enhanced console - games that aren't quite delivering what they should. In fact, we saw it with the launch of PlayStation 4 Pro back in 2016. If memory serves, The Last of Us Remastered could run at a lower frame-rate on Pro than it did on the base PS4 - and Watch Dogs 2 also had similar issues. However, these were generally exceptions and were quickly patched. While the quality of Pro versions could vary dramatically, a noticeably worse image wasn't the issue - and yet, this is clearly happening with PS5 Pro. So many titles are affected now that many users are asking for the ability to run PS5 Pro-enabled games without the Pro features enabled. Instead, those games would run with standard model features, with only the extra CPU and GPU horsepower of the new console in use.


My personal feeling on this is that it's a short term "solution" of sorts to a problem that will likely be resolved in the medium term, but to understand the problem is to focus on Sony's machine learning-based upscaling solution: PlayStation Spectral Resolution, or PSSR. This is essentially the PlayStation team's answer to Nvidia DLSS or Intel XeSS, where game engine inputs and a lower resolution are fed into a neural network, delivering an upscaled output fit for a 4K screen.

Right now, the sense is that PSSR can be as detrimental to a game's presentation as it can be a boon - and that's a problem when you're selling an expensive enhanced console upgrade to the most dedicated fans in your userbase. The quality bar is very, very straightforward: a Pro-enhanced game cannot and should not ship if it's worse than the output of the standard model. In terms of quantifiable metrics, frame-rate shouldn't be lower and to be fair, we've not seen anything like that from Pro software so far. However, things are trickier when dealing with image quality where it's typically a more subjective appraisal. That said, Avatar is losing so much detail owing to PSSR 'noise' that a cursory A to B comparison should do the trick. Foliage (Jedi: Survivor) or RTAO (Dragon's Dogma 2) shouldn't be flickering noticeably when it does not do so on the original PS5. At some point the question needs to be asked: can't developers see what's going wrong here?

There has been some tacit recognition that PSSR isn't the complete solution right now and should perhaps be deployed more sparingly. Guerrilla Games didn't use it for its Horizon games and has delivered what we think is the best image quality we've seen in any console game. Both Santa Monica Studio and Polyphony Digital have delivered good PSSR support, but even then, have included the option to drop back to prior upscaling solutions. Meanwhile, with Fortnite on PS5 Pro, Epic has chosen to retain its own TSR upscaler - a technology deeply embedded and integrated with Unreal Engine 5.
The obvious conclusion is that Epic didn't feel PSSR is a good fit for UE5 right now - born out with the UE5-driven Silent Hill 2, where Bloober Team's swap back to TSR for its performance mode has ironed out its image quality issues. And yet, PSSR remains in the 30fps quality offering, which despite the higher resolution arguably looks worse overall than the 60fps performance alternative.


As mentioned earlier, a possible solution is to offer a system-level 'opt out' of Pro upgrades and allow for Game Boost to operate on the standard PS5 version of the game - and such an option is said to exist on development Pro hardware. However, introducing a kind of fallback solution to mitigate failed Pro upgrades sends the wrong message when it's down to developers, publishers and the platform holder to get it right with their software.
 

Nankatsu

Member
Make It Rain Money GIF by A Little Late With Lilly Singh
 

Vick

Gold Member
It's the usual RT AO flickering issues already seen and discussed to death, that winjer winjer could have found an explanation for.

The issue with RT and AO might be an improper setting of the resolution of each effect.
Similar to LoDs and Mipamaps, these effects depend on the base resolution of the game.
So when it's being used with a temporal upscaler, the dev has to create an offset to these effects to render at the proper resolution.

The issue with vegetation might be an issue with the game not generating motion vectors for the grass or vegetation.
Having a reactive mask, or a pass to output velocity for these objects, could solve some issues.
It also doesn't help that the performance mode renders at 720p. This resolution is very low for a temporal upscaler to deal with.

But Sony needs to intervene immediately to at the very least prevent developers like Massive to FORCE on users this immature tech with no other choice, which is completely unacceptable for the kind of users that would be interested in this kind of product in the first place.
 
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Xtib81

Member
It’s Sony’s fault that this dev did a poor job? 🧩

Damn, so Callisto Protocol, FFVII: Rebirth, the Resident Evils, Fortnite, F1, and many others being so good is a means for me to go Falcon Punch Sony into Oblivion!

Damn you, Kevin Butler!
I spent 800€ on a console where half of the enhanced games I want to play are broken. I certainly expect more from the devs AND Sony.
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
Certain devs need to just skip PSSR if it’s causing issues to their games! Yes, it’s immature tech - so use other tools provided by the Pro.

Of course, Sony could send techs to help (if they haven’t already), but in the absence of that as a solution, and none of your own, why not just skip the upscale?

Xtib81 Xtib81

Read here.
 
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It’s Sony’s fault that this dev did a poor job? 🧩

Damn, so Callisto Protocol, FFVII: Rebirth, the Resident Evils, Fortnite, F1, and many others being so good is a means for me to go Falcon Punch Sony into Oblivion!

Damn you, Kevin Butler!

On the 1X and PS4Pro even the laziest ports just leveraged the gpu upgrade for higher resolutions or increased detail.

The fact that it is possible for a dev to hit an "arguably" worse looking image with higher powered hardware would fall on Sony a bit.
Something with the machine or the software they've put together is making that an option. Likely the up-scaling tech isn't quite ready for primetime and will improve as time goes on.
 

Topher

Identifies as young
"Right now, the sense is that PSSR can be as detrimental to a game's presentation as it can be a boon - and that's a problem when you're selling an expensive enhanced console upgrade to the most dedicated fans in your userbase. The quality bar is very, very straightforward: a Pro-enhanced game cannot and should not ship if it's worse than the output of the standard model. In terms of quantifiable metrics, frame-rate shouldn't be lower and to be fair, we've not seen anything like that from Pro software so far. However, things are trickier when dealing with image quality where it's typically a more subjective appraisal. That said, Avatar is losing so much detail owing to PSSR 'noise' that a cursory A to B comparison should do the trick. Foliage (Jedi: Survivor) or RTAO (Dragon's Dogma 2) shouldn't be flickering noticeably when it does not do so on the original PS5. At some point the question needs to be asked: can't developers see what's going wrong here?"

That's a huge question. Why are these patches even being released?
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
On the 1X and PS4Pro even the laziest ports just leveraged the gpu upgrade for higher resolutions or increased detail.

The fact that it is possible for a dev to hit an "arguably" worse looking image with higher powered hardware would fall on Sony a bit.
Something with the machine or the software they've put together is making that an option. Likely the up-scaling tech isn't quite ready for primetime and will improve as time goes on.
Because there are so many examples of the Pro being used to produce vastly improved results, I’d say the hardware is less the issue and more management. That is, Sony could help more (again, assuming they haven’t) and teams could find other ways to leverage the hardware. In that regard, yes, both can shoulder some blame. Of course PSSR has improving to do, all new tech goes through that and Sony does need to get that ball rollin’ pronto!

But on the other hand, why push out a game with these issues in the first place? Cut your losses and make improvements elsewhere.
 
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Vick

Gold Member
It’s Sony’s fault that this dev did a poor job? 🧩

Damn, so Callisto Protocol, FFVII: Rebirth, the Resident Evils, Fortnite, F1, and many others being so good is a means for me to go Falcon Punch Sony into Oblivion!

Damn you, Kevin Butler!
The hotter the fire under Sony's ass, the faster PSSR actual shortcomings will be addressed, meaning Pro users ultimately being the ones benefiting the most from this kind of negative coverage.. which is mostly done with pure platform warring purposes.

At the current state, developers forcing games looking like this with no possible other choice should be borderline illegal if it the end results ends up worse than base PS5. It doesn't matter if Avatar has clear improvements over base PS5:

t01L9MF.gif


Better LOD, higher resolution and enhanced RT if at the same time, thanks the usual and common issue seen in games sharing technical characteristic, it's also sort of broken looking.

If we had flawless PSSR implementations in Sony's own games like TLOU and Ragnarok being optional toggles, third party hacks forcing it on people when it results in virtually broken games being the only possible choice, especially when it's not a Sony mandate or requirement, is nothing short of ridiculous.

As I've said yesterday, imagine if devs forced on Steam users DLSS from the beginning with no other possible choice..

This is dark side and sad reality of closed systems, you just have to accept everything that's being forced upon you. Which makes the desire of some individuals to take choices from console gaming away because "They're not a PC" all the more ironic.
 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
The hotter the fire under Sony's ass, the faster PSSR actual shortcomings will be addressed, meaning Pro users ultimately being the ones benefitting the most from this kind of negative coverage which is mostly done with pure platform warring purposes.

At the current state, developers forcing games looking like this with no possible other choice should be borderline illegal if it the end results ends up worse than base PS5. I mean, Avatar has clear improvements over base PS5:

t01L9MF.gif


But at the same time, thanks the usual and common issue seen in games sharing technical characteristic, it's also sort of broken.

If we had flawless PSSR implementation in Sony's own games like TLOU and Ragnarok being optional toggles, third party hacks forcing it on people when results in broken games as only choice, especially when it's not a Sony mandate or requirement, is nothing short of ridiculous.

That looks blurry as shit both ways. 😂
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
The hotter the fire under Sony's ass, the faster PSSR actual shortcomings will be addressed, meaning Pro users ultimately being the ones benefitting the most from this kind of negative coverage which is mostly done with pure platform warring purposes.

At the current state, developers forcing games looking like this with no possible other choice should be borderline illegal if it the end results ends up worse than base PS5. I mean, Avatar has clear improvements over base PS5:

t01L9MF.gif


But at the same time, thanks the usual and common issue seen in games sharing technical characteristic, it's also sort of broken.

If we had flawless PSSR implementation in Sony's own games like TLOU and Ragnarok being optional toggles, third party hacks forcing it on people when results in broken games as only choice, especially when it's not a Sony mandate or requirement, is nothing short of ridiculous.
As usual, we agree, especially about PSSR and devs who release games in this state.

RoboFu RoboFu

Zoomed in obviously, but much less blurry on the Pro. 😉
 
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Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I’ll just quote Gaiff Gaiff (great poster btw).

The part that surprises me is that it made it through QA. Didn't they see that it wasn't acceptable before releasing it to the public?

That's what baffles me. You'd think devs would know better. They're the ones who are paid the big bucks to develop games. They're the ones with the tools and expertise to produce quality...but then you get this. How? An average gaffer wouldn't have greenlit this.
 
So far the PS5 Pro can take a game that already has a high resolution and makes it look better but isn't able to improve games with a lower resolution. The issue here is that is the point of an upscaler. The PS5 Pro doesn't have the power to run this at 1080p internally as with Alan Wake 2 etc so it all rests on the upscaler to deliver the image quality. There is no point if t can't upscale well from less than 1080p. Demanding games are going to be likely below 1080p going forward.
 

proandrad

Member
So far the PS5 Pro can take a game that already has a high resolution and makes it look better but isn't able to improve games with a lower resolution. The issue here is that is the point of an upscaler. The PS5 Pro doesn't have the power to run this at 1080p internally as with Alan Wake 2 etc so it all rests on the upscaler to deliver the image quality. There is no point if t can't upscale well from less than 1080p. Demanding games are going to be likely below 1080p going forward.
That’s not true, PSSR isn’t able to do what you just mentioned.
 
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Kinda fucked up situation, where the performance gap between PS5 and the Pro was going to be quite smaller than with the PS4-Pro one, but this would be offset by the new upscaler, which could make it even better than the previous gen's gap.

So developers are forced to either just use the not so big extra raster power from the PS5 Pro or use all it has with PSSR but risk breaking the image quality.

Funny tho that some developers don't even take a minute to check the final results from their patches, at least Bloober was quick to "fix" it and remove PSSR, meanwhile Remedy, EA, Ubi etc are sleeping.
 

Topher

Identifies as young
So far the PS5 Pro can take a game that already has a high resolution and makes it look better but isn't able to improve games with a lower resolution. The issue here is that is the point of an upscaler. The PS5 Pro doesn't have the power to run this at 1080p internally as with Alan Wake 2 etc so it all rests on the upscaler to deliver the image quality. There is no point if t can't upscale well from less than 1080p. Demanding games are going to be likely below 1080p going forward.

Alan Wake 2 could have run at a higher resolution had Remedy not decided to add more effects rather than simply increase pixel counts. Upscaling from less than 1080p is not ideal regardless of what upscaler we are talking about. Suggesting there is "no point" if it can't is simply not true. I mean.....why do Quality and Balanced modes even exist with DLSS if that is the case?
 
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HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
Vick Vick

Also, the platform warring stuff. As you see, it’s like selling free crack to a bunch of junkies.

Kinda fucked up situation, where the performance gap between PS5 and the Pro was going to be quite smaller than with the PS4-Pro one, but this would be offset by the new upscaler, which could make it even better than the previous gen's gap.

So developers are forced to either just use the not so big extra raster power from the PS5 Pro or use all it has with PSSR but risk breaking the image quality.

Funny tho that some developers don't even take a minute to check the final results from their patches, at least Bloober was quick to "fix" it and remove PSSR, meanwhile Remedy, EA, Ubi etc are sleeping.
SH2 still has its issues though, so I hope they improve further.
 
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HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
I'm sorry but this console is fucking shit. Maybe by the time the PS6 comes out PSSR will be ready to go, but right now it's a joke.
Yet it has more improved games on it than shit stains like Avatar.

So, we either look at everything in its totality or single out the handful that need improvement.

Is PC fucking shit because devs put out fucking shit ports? Something to think about.
 
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mrcroket

Member
As usual, we agree, especially about PSSR and devs who release games in this state.

RoboFu RoboFu

Zoomed in obviously, but much less blurry on the Pro. 😉
The thing is that a static image says nothing, FSR2 also looks great in a screenshot, but when it moves everything goes to shit. But hey, even if while playing you have an image full of noise and shimmering, you can make great screenshots where zooming in and out you can distinguish that it looks sharper than a PS5 screenshot, all for $699, enjoy! :messenger_winking:
 

PandaOk

Banned
Nvidia sent engineers directly to companies in the early days. Sony really should have done the same. They’re learning first hand, in part, what AMD suffered through with FSR.
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
The thing is that a static image says nothing, FSR2 also looks great in a screenshot, but when it moves everything goes to shit. But hey, even if while playing you have an image full of noise and shimmering, you can make great screenshots where zooming in and out you can distinguish that it looks sharper than a PS5 screenshot, all for $699, enjoy! :messenger_winking:
You either don’t have a Pro or were sippin’ on some J-Daniels when posting this.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Alan Wake 2 could have run at a higher resolution had Remedy not decided to add more effects rather than simply increase pixel counts. Upscaling from less than 1080p is not ideal regardless of what upscaler we are talking about. Suggesting there is "no point" if it can't is simply not true. I mean.....why do Quality and Balanced modes even exist with DLSS if that is the case?
What they did with Alan Wake 2 was dumb. They claimed they tried just upping the resolution and that they decided enhancing the visuals was the better alternative.

Alan Wake 2 has so much post-processing and is often so dark that it’s hard to see those improvements. A cleaner resolve, however, would have gone a long way. Instead you got better visuals…masked by the same low resolution and low-res post-processing.
 

Darsxx82

Member
Don't know why these dumbass devs don't just use the extra GPU power to increase the resolution if they can't get PSSR to work.
Because perhaps that option would give performance results vs PS5 that would not help give reasons to make the jump to a €800 hardware that plays the same games.

PSSR is the key piece in the PS5Pro framework. If this does not work or is not able to do it correctly..... it is a big problem and I suppose that is where SONY will be putting great effort into solving it as quickly as possible right now.
In the cases of PS4Pro and especially XBO X the extra processing power alone makes the difference. In the case of PS5Pro there are more variants that need to work correctly all at the same time because the extra processing power alone is not a sufficient factor.
 
Alan Wake 2 could have run at a higher resolution had Remedy not decided to add more effects rather than simply increase pixel counts. Upscaling from less than 1080p is not ideal regardless of what upscaler we are talking about. Suggesting there is "no point" if it can't is simply not true. I mean.....why do Quality and Balanced modes even exist with DLSS if that is the case?
I have seen DLSS upscale from below 1080p to 4k. Infact it was Alan Wake 2 and it looked like it could have been around 1440p if I didn't know. That's what makes DLSS so good. You will see this with the Switch 2 with games running internally running at 900p looking good. We will see after the Switch 2 launches how pointless it is if an AI upscaler can't upscale from a lower resolution.
 

Euler007

Member
Sony is doing a terrible job with that pro, that's baffling.
Please tell me you're being sarcastic.

Anyways, here's my take on how that went in internally:
Manager : The marketing department determined that having a Pro patch would increase sales, patch the game.
Project manager : Here's my estimate on the tasks, manpower needed and time required.
Manager : No, thats' too expensive and too late, the marketing department emphasize the importance of the getting the patch out before the end of november for the holiday season.
Project manager : We can't just enable PSSR and throw it out there, we have to run QA on it, probably tweak the engine, playtest it. It's a lot of work, you don't just download the new libraries and recompile it.
Manager : Just do it. I don't have time for excuses.
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
Because perhaps that option would give performance results vs PS5 that would not help give reasons to make the jump to a €800 hardware that plays the same games.

PSSR is the key piece in the PS5Pro framework. If this does not work or is not able to do it correctly..... it is a big problem and I suppose that is where SONY will be putting great effort into solving it as quickly as possible right now.
In the cases of PS4Pro and especially XBO X the extra processing power alone makes the difference. In the case of PS5Pro there are more variants that need to work correctly all at the same time because the extra processing power alone is not a sufficient factor.
Except that it is if either a. Your game worked well beforehand and/or b. You really know what you’re doing.

That doesn’t mean PSSR doesn’t need to improve, but devs need equal improvements on their pipelines.
 
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