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[trembli0s]

He's pretty spot on for this. I watched the marathon and loved the movie in the theater with an audience but watching it at home is a drag.

Han Solo dying sucked. But it didn't suck because of what he represented in this movie, but because of our past connection to him from prequels which gave him a true soul.

Chewie's reaction to his death is the heaviest emotional moment in the movie because we understand what he feels at that time.

You could have killed off every main character in this movie and found yourself nonplussed because the characters really had nothing to attach you to them. The only one who had any depth was Kylo.

 

[Ross61]

Even though I disagree with the whole thing, I can understand some of the points man. Still disagree.

 

[DavidDesu]

Well... I think TFA was a pretty great film all round. Fun, easy to watch, moves along at a great pace so it's eminently re-watchable. Loved Finn and Rey, and Po. BB-8 was absolutely perfect. Yeah it retreaded a hell of a lot of old ground, but I can forgive them just wanting to make a decent Star Wars film after the dirge that was the prequels.

I tend not to watch A New Hope much these days. It is where this all started but I find it to be quite a dull film overall. It obviously has some great moments and introduces us to these characters, but it was from Empire where I feel Star Wars really found itself and Empire in particular just absolutely nailed it.

I feel this is where we are at. We have our New Hope, we have our cast of heroes and villains, and we have questions that need answered. I think and hope that Johnson's Episode 8 does another Empire in terms of giving us a new direction for this universe, something deeper and more meaningful, something that can retroactively also help to build up what came before.

Star Wars has always felt greater than the sum of its parts, some intangible depth that you only feel, it's in your imagination and not something literally committed to film. We all fill in the gaps just a little and make it our Star Wars, I feel the universe built in TFA has scope for the future. It was well made too and visually stimulating, something I really think the prequels categorically failed on. And I'm not talking about ship designs or planet concepts, I mean the literal way it was put on screen, the layering, the lighting, everything was dynamic and felt tangible in a way the prequels completely got wrong and felt out of step with the universe we'd grown to know and love in the original trilogy.

I'm confident TFA will be a great first entry into a potentially fantastic trilogy once all is said and done.

 

[brandonh83]

You could have killed off every main character in this movie and found yourself nonplussed because the characters really had nothing to attach you to them. The only one who had any depth was Kylo.

I liked Rey, Finn and Poe plenty. I find them very likable. Rey is very sweet, as is Finn. They're polite and caring characters. Poe is just cool as shit, so I can like the dude on those merits. However, what you're saying, I think, ultimately isn't terribly fair and I think your perception of Han's death is off. It's fine for you to have that opinion, but if I may-- yes, we care about Han mostly because of the previous three episodes. But that's the thing; he had three episodes worth of character development. I would argue, though, that Episode VI doesn't really develop his character too much. Han pretty much reaches the tip of his arc in Episode V.

What's not fair to me in this case is that we've only had one film with the new characters, so of course they're not going to immediately have the impact of Han's death, if one of them were to die in Episode VII. But they didn't, and they have at least two more films worth of development. What I appreciate about Han's death is that, again, I felt that he didn't get much, if any development at all in Return of the Jedi. His character peaked in Empire, full-stop. What Force Awakens does is throw something interesting for him into the mix: his son. We learn they're estranged, but Han still very much cares about him. Kylo cares about Han as well, deep down I think, but he's clouded by the dark side and is being torn in like a thousand different directions. I didn't get the sense that he wanted to kill Han, but he's under the scrutiny of Snoke.

What The Force Awakens did for me in terms of Han's character was finally give him one last oomph of character development before his sendoff, and I found it emotionally resonant. Han didn't just die-- his death directly contributed to a pivotal piece of development for our new villain. It wasn't a pointless, throwaway death at all. What I expected the new trilogy to do was to introduce a new set of characters that will be the real flesh and blood of the new story, while the older characters contribute in some way to their development. Han contributes to Kylo Ren. Luke contributes to Rey and her destiny. We've yet to see how the Luke thing plays out, but I have confidence that they'll find something very poignant to do, ultimately, with his character.

As for Finn, again, two full movies to go. This was absolutely the introductory episode for these characters, and I don't feel like I should judge their entire character arc based on what is the equivalent of the first act of three. I wasn't upset with Han's death just because I was very familiar with him, or because he's an iconic character that I've known most of my life. Surely the impact is helped by that, but I found it more tragic because of the reason behind his death. In any narrative with a villain, I think it's important that the villain does something absolutely heinous to get the audience to root against him. For Kylo, this was killing Han Solo. For Han's character, Episode VI left things pretty hunky-dory for Han and Leia. I didn't really care for that. I recall Kasdan and Ford both talking about how they tried to get Han killed off in VI, because there's really not much else for him to do.

Instead, they used it for VII, without Lucas being around to disregard the idea and finally do something with that character. It just felt right-- it gave Han more detail, it made sense, it established an emotional connection between Han and the characters, and again was very pivotal to Kylo Ren's character as our new villain. It served several purposes.

edit: apologies for the length of this post, I'm sure it could've been written more efficiently, but I like getting into the nitty gritty of things and sometimes that's not always so clear-cut and simple to explain. I'm not asking for some huge rebuttal of what I've just said, this is just how I saw things personally.

I do agree with you that Kylo had absolutely boss character writing in this. He's by far the most interesting villain for me so far in the series. Vader is obviously iconic and amazing, but relative to ANH and TFA, Kylo runs circles around him as a character, and this is also because of Han.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

This two more films to go stuff is nonsense. We, as movie goers, deserve to have a complete movie that can stand on it's own and not this trilogy bullshit.

Star Wars was not guaranteed to have another film, and that's why it ends on that medal ceremony. I understand Star Wars is why we are shoved into this trilogy bullshit these days (but it was 3 really good standalone films back then!), and it is ironic that it is probably the worst offender of trilogism.

 

[brandonh83]

This two more films to go stuff is nonsense. We, as movie goers, deserve to have a complete movie that can stand on it's own and not this trilogy bullshit.

Star Wars was not guaranteed to have another film, and that's why it ends on that medal ceremony. I understand Star Wars is why we are shoved into this trilogy bullshit these days (but it was 3 really good standalone films back then!), and it is ironic that it is probably the worst offender of trilogism.

ANH left loose ends, though. Vader wasn't killed, and he was the primary villain. But I mostly disagree with this because, yes, it's a different climate. This is a planned trilogy. It's like calling bullshit on Fellowship of the Ring, or The Two Towers. ANH does feel like more of a complete thing because of your reasoning, absolutely, but that was a different time where nobody knew how the thing would end up doing. No studios wanted it to begin with, so it made sense for it to be a more confined thing.

I don't think Luke, Han or Leia got any better or more in-depth development or character arcs than the new characters. You're welcome to feel that way, but this is a different thing. They planned out a new trilogy in a time where they know people are going to want more Star Wars. They weren't just going to make Episode VII and say, well, hopefully people like this and we can make more. It's just... such a different thing.

Episode VII is the first act. Episode VIII will expand upon things just as Episode V did. It isn't some cardinal sin or anything out of the ordinary.

 

[BocoDragon]

Based on how it's portrayed in TFA? If anything the superhero powers aspect has been toned down massively since the prequels.

One of the most frustrating things about criticizing TFA is that you can always answer each criticism with "at least it's better than the prequels". You're not wrong, but I thought we were setting the bar higher than that.

Yes, the prequels fucked up the Force with its midchlorian count (a.k.a. power levels "He's over 9000!") and leaning into the genetic destiny crap. (I can accept that the son of a mystic would also be a good mystic, just as the son of a musician would be a good musician... but something IS lost when you make it pure "genetics").

My bar of quality is set with the assumption we know the prequels are crap and is actually answering to the assumption that TFA "restores Star Wars to greatness". I think the one area it did not succeed was in failing to re-spiritualize the Force.

ANH was a movie that philosophers and mystics could use as an analogue for the spiritual journey. The Matrix was like that too. TFA....? Well no, concentrating hard until your magic powers are unlocked is not exactly the mystic experience. That's more like "yer a wizard Harry" level personal development. Willing your mutant powers to awake

The Force needed a philosophical re-introduction to the series (like a brief "It surrounds us and binds us....") and I'm very surprised they left that bit out when "remaking" ANH. Without it, I'm left thinking it's a series about wizards with magic superpowers, rather than a series about people getting in tune with the universe.

The subtext of Star Wars was that spiritual mastery could conquer tyranny and technology. The Force without spirituality or philosophy is just another kind of technology. "Magic powers can beat technology" is just banal fantasy, not a metaphor for a personal journey.

I don't think it's irredeemable. Episode VIII probably will have some analogue to Yoda's wisdom (Luke's wisdom, I'd imagine). I'll be impressed if the spiritual angle returns.... because if it just becomes a full on magic power universe I think they will have quietly destroyed what makes Star Wars special.

 

[brandonh83]

One of the most frustrating things about criticizing TFA is that you can always answer each criticism with "at least it's better than the prequels". You're not wrong, but I thought we were setting the bar higher than that.

I thought the bar was higher than the prequels. The performances and likability of the characters were far above it, and I like the prequels (for the most part). I felt like VII absolutely addressed most issues. Sucks that you didn't like it, but I'd place this well ahead of the prequels and it's not even close. Rey, Finn and Poe blow away the prequel characters in about every way, if not in every way.

One definitely does not need to say "well it's better than the prequels" to defend or critique the film. It's wholly unnecessary.

 

[SleepyJohn11]

Hulk's summed up opinion of TFA on twitter in case some are not reading his article:

The Force Awakens doesn't have a drop of functionalism[*], but it's sweet talking, highly aware, and super cool. It also works despite itself.

[*] Dramatic clarity. Character motivation clarity. Earning changes and purposeful story choices. That stuff.

Also:

Moving fast is a distraction, not an answer. And it's terribly fleeting which why so forgettable.

 

[brandonh83]

I do think it gets to moving too fast. I felt like there needed to be more in the second act. That'd be my major criticism against it. The first act is really perfect, the second act just sort of goes over a bunch of stuff pretty quickly. I think it picks itself up mostly though by the third act/climax, but it's a legit criticism to be had for sure.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I think it's weird that even though they have planned a trilogy, they rush the characters and the plot. If they're offloading character development to the next movies when TFA had an entire sequence dedicated to rathtars, then that's dumb.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

ANH left loose ends, though. Vader wasn't killed, and he was the primary villain. But I mostly disagree with this because, yes, it's a different climate. This is a planned trilogy. It's like calling bullshit on Fellowship of the Ring, or The Two Towers. ANH does feel like more of a complete thing because of your reasoning, absolutely, but that was a different time where nobody knew how the thing would end up doing. No studios wanted it to begin with, so it made sense for it to be a more confined thing.

I don't think Luke, Han or Leia got any better or more in-depth development or character arcs than the new characters. You're welcome to feel that way, but this is a different thing. They planned out a new trilogy in a time where they know people are going to want more Star Wars. They weren't just going to make Episode VII and say, well, hopefully people like this and we can make more. It's just... such a different thing.

Episode VII is the first act. Episode VIII will expand upon things just as Episode V did. It isn't some cardinal sin or anything out of the ordinary.

Oddly enough, early vibes about LOTR was that the ending was bullshit. I actually came out of the theater surprised by how satisfied I was (though it's a road trip movie, so it's kind of different). I think it spent so much time establishing it's characters I didn't feel left in the dust as a viewer.

If you are down for a trilogy, that's cool. You are right, its the world we live in. I'm just over it. I think there is space for this universe to surprise us (Shadows of the Empire caught my imagination), but I now know the next "Star Wars" is probably not going to come from this series.

 

[LosDaddie]

REY HAS A SIMILAR PROBLEM, IN THAT SHE'S NOT SO MUCH A CHARACTER AS SHE IS A LIST OF POSITIVE ATTRIBUTES. THE WHOLE DISCUSSION OF HER BEING A MARY SUE IS TANGENTIAL TO THE FACT SHE JUST DOESN'T HAVE A REAL PSYCHE BEING PLAYED. HER CHARACTER CAN TOTALLY BE AN AWESOME WHIZ KID WHOSE GREAT AT STUFF, BUT WHAT'S HER TRUE WANT? WHAT'S STOPPING HER FROM ADVENTURE? WHAT IS SHE FAILING AT? WHAT'S HER FLAW? WHAT DOES THAT FAILURE OR REALIZATION ALLOW HER TO DO AT THE END OF THE MOVIE THAT SHE COULD NEVER DO AT THE BEGINNING? ALL LEARNING COMES FROM FAILURE, AFTER ALL. BUT DON'T SAY SHE LEARNS HOW TO "USE THE FORCE" BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T REALLY FAIL IN THAT PURSUIT. SHE JUST DISCOVERS SHE CAN USE IT STEP-BY-STEP "JUST BECAUSE." TO COMPARE, THINK ABOUT THE WAY LUKE FAILS WITH THE BLASTER AND THE WAY THAT MIRRORS THE GREAT DRAMA WITH THE FINAL TRENCH RUN. BUT WITH J.J.? SHE FAILS AT BEING ABLE TO DO A MIND CONTROL AND THEN IMMEDIATELY JUST TRIES AGAIN AND SUCCEEDS. LIKE, UM, WHAT DID SHE LEARN IN BETWEEN THOSE TWO EFFORTS? WHAT WAS DRAMATICALLY DEMONSTRATED? DID SHE JUST TRY HARDER WITH HER BRAIN? DID SHE JUST GAIN ABILITY IMMEDIATELY? HOW IS HULK SUPPOSED TO ACCEPT ANY OF THIS? IT'S SO SYMBOLIC OF J.J.'S WORST HABITS...

People made the same observations in the OTs for the movie, and were immediately labeled sexist and shouted down. "Why aren't you complaining about LUke then, huh? Because he's a guy, right?!?"

My personal favorite was when a few people suggested that Rey struggle with the Dark Side (which all Star War protagonists have done) in the new movies, and that was called sexist too.

Personally, I really enjoyed TFA. Watched it twice in the theaters, and bought the blu-ray. Despite being an 80s kids, I was never a huge SW fan. I just wanted a fun movie, and that's what JJ delivered.

REy is cool, if not a bit too-perfect. Finn's a bro. Kylo is the best developed character so far. Poe was a plot-device and nothing more. PHasma isn't/wasn't a character, and not worth mentioning.

 

[brandonh83]

I think it's weird that even though they have planned a trilogy, they rush the characters and the plot. If they're offloading character development to the next movies when TFA had an entire sequence dedicated to rathtars, then that's dumb.

I don't think they offloaded the development to future movies.

Rey, for example, gets plenty. She starts off scavenging a Star Destroyer. A nobody. Salvaging parts for one meal a day. You feel her struggle. You get your typical Star Wars chance meetings because of her deep down caring about BB-8. One thing leads to another. She goes from a nobody to defeating the leader of the First Order in a duel and locating Luke Skywalker. It isn't void of development nor is it any lesser than what you get in A New Hope by comparison.

You may not agree with this and some obviously don't. But Episode VII is clearly the first of three. It's almost like the movies themselves are a three act structure. The original trilogy ended up being just that, as all trilogies are. This was the introductory. Unlike ANH, they announced the new trilogy right off the bat, three episodes. It's in a different position. Episode VII sets it all up and introduces everyone. The following films will capitalize on it further and add more depth. That's how this works.

 

[Nerdkiller]

Except the scene makes complete sense to me and I haven't read a single Star Wars story with Finn.

It feels like people are going out of their way to make a very obvious character arc (Guy is scared shitless after coming close to death and the horrors of war, finds friends, overcomes fear for his friends) as complicated as possible.

I was mainly referring to the whole "those two were best buds as according to some extended universe fluff" thing that seems to assume that if you get that connection between the two, it makes the immediate movie better. Yes, I get that actions can say a lot, especially given that the bloody hand print was the turning point as to why he became a changed character from the get go, but if you're seriously trying to make it deeper by making a greater connection between the two in having to mention that they were friends in a completely different medium, then that just falls flat. That Stormtrooper as it was in the movie was little more than a faceless character to us.

 

[BocoDragon]

I thought the bar was higher than the prequels. The performances and likability of the characters were far above it, and I like the prequels (for the most part). I felt like VII absolutely addressed most issues. Sucks that you didn't like it, but I'd place this well ahead of the prequels and it's not even close. Rey, Finn and Poe blow away the prequel characters in about every way, if not in every way.

One definitely does not need to say "well it's better than the prequels" to defend or critique the film. It's wholly unnecessary.

I don't think we have a disagreement here.

I'm saying exactly that a criticism of TFA is not invalidated because "it's better than the prequels" when "of course it's all better than the prequels and don't we already know that?" So we agree on that.

But I do think it's fair to knock TFA for where it's not as good as the OT. And in the specific case of how they portrayed The Force, I believe that it falls short. It's not really about me not liking the movie, because I enjoy lots of it. But I think on this particular point, it is absolutely fair to say that The Force lost many of the 60s/70s-era "zen/spiritual/mystic philosophy" connotations that it had in the early films.

If you care about the portrayal of The Force, and that's one of the number one things I care about Star Wars the most, it's clear as day that there's been a shift from spiritual > magic powers. If you're more into all the other elements of Star Wars... maybe that element doesn't matter to you as much. For myself, as a little proto would-be mystic watching the series in the 90s, that's THE thing I took away from it. And it's not there in TFA. It's more like watching the powers in X-men or Harry Potter now.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I don't think they offloaded the development to future movies.

Rey, for example, gets plenty. She starts off scavenging a Star Destroyer. A nobody. Salvaging parts for one meal a day. You feel her struggle. You get your typical Star Wars chance meetings because of her deep down caring about BB-8. One thing leads to another. She goes from a nobody to defeating the leader of the First Order in a duel and locating Luke Skywalker. It isn't void of development nor is it any lesser than what you get in A New Hope by comparison.

You may not agree with this and some obviously don't. But Episode VII is clearly the first of three. It's almost like the movies themselves are a three act structure. The original trilogy ended up being just that, as all trilogies are. This was the introductory. Unlike ANH, they announced the new trilogy right off the bat, three episodes. It's in a different position. Episode VII sets it all up and introduces everyone. The following films will capitalize on it further and add more depth. That's how this works.

I get that, but I'd rather have a complete movie that doesn't end on a cliffhanger. The whole point of this movie is to find Luke and they find him at the very end and then "To be continued...". It's offloading the payoff to VIII. It doesn't sit right with me. You're right about the characters, though.

 

[brandonh83]

If you care about the portrayal of The Force, and that's one of the number one things I care about Star Wars the most, it's clear as day that there's been a shift from spiritual > magic powers. If you're more into all the other elements of Star Wars... maybe that element doesn't matter to you as much. For myself, as a little proto would-be mystic watching the series in the 90s, that's THE thing I took away from it. And it's not there in TFA. It's more like watching the powers in X-men or Harry Potter now.

Yeah, it's handled more modestly in the originals, but more than likely because of the situation Episode IV was in. Lucas had a great idea with the Force but wasn't sure if there'd be more sequels. I think this led to that. We don't really know much about Rey yet in terms of her lineage or why she's so attuned. I like to think of the Force as a cinematic element that can make characters feel larger than life. I don't think it has any particular representation that should be adhered to. I fully get what you're saying and your thoughts seem to be super grounded, so I don't necessarily intend to argue with you about it as it's not a bad argument.

What this film does is show a character, like Luke, that has a strong connection to the Force-- they just don't entirely know it yet. I felt like it was such a sense of discovery for Rey. Like I said already, she starts out to us as seemingly a nobody, and then starts pulling off feats. I liked this because it was different. With Luke, he slowly learns he's attuned to it. With Rey, she does as well, but it's kinda different in execution. The first major sign is how she pilots the Falcon out of Jakku. Finn inquires, "how did you do that?" and Rey responds, "I don't know!" It's a really nice moment where they're high on their success, but Rey has just did something crazy, something that she was able to feel herself through.

That for me is the point of the Force ultimately. With Luke, he had Obi-Wan to tell him, look, son. You're a badass, but you don't know it yet. But you will. With Rey, it wasn't until Maz began inquiring with her that she's special, and running into Luke's lost lightsaber wasn't a coincidence. What this does for me better than the prequels was that it brought back some of the mystery; Rey discovering she can do all this, her running into the lightsaber which acted partially as a fragment of the Force which gave her visions, and so forth. While the film doesn't answer all the questions yet, for me it at least raised questions concerning Rey and her connection to the Force.

All of this led to that beautiful moment when she pulls the saber hilt from the snow. It's a classic Sword in the Stone moment, or like the Mjolnir with Thor. She told Maz she didn't want any part of it, all of this stuff and those visions really spooked her to the point where she ran away and needed to be alone. But, it's her destiny, like any traditional hero. These things is what made Rey, for me anyway, a traditional hero just as much as Luke. There's still things to find out, but I'm definitely interested in seeing where it goes. I don't think the Force was treated in a lazy or haphazard fashion, but rather they simply wrote a character who has a new path to its discovery.

I get that, but I'd rather have a complete movie that doesn't end on a cliffhanger. The whole point of this movie is to find Luke and they find him at the very end and then "To be continued...". It's offloading the payoff to VIII. It doesn't sit right with me. You're right about the characters, though.

That's fair. For me it was pretty simple though: the opening crawl literally begins with "Luke Skywalker has disappeared." The movie ends with Rey finding Luke Skywalker. In that sense, the dilemma the opening begins with is answered, cleared up. Luke is found. We don't yet know much beyond that, but it at least ended with Luke's discovery. Had the movie ended without that, I may be more inclined to agree with the criticism. I thought this movie established itself as the beginning, introduced the new characters, what they're all about, and so on.

 

[BocoDragon]

Yeah, it's handled more modestly in the originals, but more than likely because of the situation Episode IV was in. Lucas had a great idea with the Force but wasn't sure if there'd be more sequels. I think this led to that. We don't really know much about Rey yet in terms of her lineage or why she's so attuned. I like to think of the Force as a cinematic element that can make characters feel larger than life. I don't think it has any particular representation that should be adhered to. I fully get what you're saying and your thoughts seem to be super grounded, so I don't necessarily intend to argue with you about it as it's not a bad argument.

What this film does is show a character, like Luke, that has a strong connection to the Force-- they just don't entirely know it yet. I felt like it was such a sense of discovery for Rey. Like I said already, she starts out to us as seemingly a nobody, and then starts pulling off feats. I liked this because it was different. With Luke, he slowly learns he's attuned to it. With Rey, she does as well, but it's kinda different in execution. The first major sign is how she pilots the Falcon out of Jakku. Finn inquires, "how did you do that?" and Rey responds, "I don't know!" It's a really nice moment where they're high on their success, but Rey has just did something crazy, something that she was able to feel herself through.

That for me is the point of the Force ultimately. With Luke, he had Obi-Wan to tell him, look, son. You're a badass, but you don't know it yet. But you will. With Rey, it wasn't until Maz began inquiring with her that she's special, and running into Luke's lost lightsaber wasn't a coincidence. What this does for me better than the prequels was that it brought back some of the mystery; Rey discovering she can do all this, her running into the lightsaber which acted partially as a fragment of the Force which gave her visions, and so forth. While the film doesn't answer all the questions yet, for me it at least raised questions concerning Rey and her connection to the Force.

All of this led to that beautiful moment when she pulls the saber hilt from the snow. It's a classic Sword in the Stone moment, or like the Mjolnir with Thor. She told Maz she didn't want any part of it, all of this stuff and those visions really spooked her to the point where she ran away and needed to be alone. But, it's her destiny, like any traditional hero. These things is what made Rey, for me anyway, a traditional hero just as much as Luke. There's still things to find out, but I'm definitely interested in seeing where it goes. I don't think the Force was treated in a lazy or haphazard fashion, but rather they simply wrote a character who has a new path to its discovery.

I did not mind the self-discovery aspect of Rey's relationship to the Force. It meshes with what I thought about the Force back when. Anyone could have access to it if they look within. So I suppose that the "philosophy" aspect of the Force might have fallen by the wayside, as a consequence. There are less people to talk to about it when she's figuring it out on her own.

The ultimate portrayal of The Force in the new era of Star Wars of those things that I won't really know until future films. Maybe Luke will be the Yoda of a new generation and say some genuinely profound shit that can even resonate with someone in the real world (philosophy that works even outside of a "magical universe" in the same way that "there is no try" or "there is no spoon" works perfectly well in relating to our own world).

But I do have concerns that Disney/Lucas aren't really concerned whether their vision of Star Wars becomes "space wizards with magic superpowers" or not. It's perfectly Disney. It's perfectly sellable (see Harry Potter and Marvel). I could see the spiritual dimension to The Force getting lost in the shuffle... not out of any conscious intention. Just a lack of concern to preserve the Aquarian spirit that originally made The Force attractive to late 20th century audiences.

 

[brandonh83]

But I do have concerns that Disney/Lucas aren't really concerned whether their vision of Star Wars becomes "space wizards with magic superpowers" or not. It's perfectly Disney. It's perfectly sellable (see Harry Potter and Marvel). I could see the spiritual dimension to The Force getting lost in the shuffle... not out of any conscious intention. Just a lack of concern to preserve the Aquarian spirit that originally made The Force attractive to late 20th century audiences.

I get you. I don't want them to overdo it. I guess my thing is that I have a lot of faith in Rian Johnson and Trevorrow to not go apeshit with the Force. This first movie put Rey in a position of power, but I think it was intentionally done that way so that in the next film(s) she will end up somehow incredibly flawed. Like Episode VII felt too yeah gung ho with Rey's powers, but I think, especially with Rian Johnson doing the next one, that maybe she gets too high on herself and this could lead to something fucking terrible happening because she's not respective of the Force enough.

I hope this happens actually. Episode VII was a victory for her, as it was for Luke in Episode IV, but then... as with trilogies, that middle section introduces some heavy flaws and our protagonists make decisions that may or may not be right. I'm sensing a very dark Episode VIII.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I hope this happens actually. Episode VII was a victory for her, as it was for Luke in Episode IV, but then... as with trilogies, that middle section introduces some heavy flaws and our protagonists make decisions that may or may not be right. I'm sensing a very dark Episode VIII.

Rey's gonna tango with the Dark Side and love it

 

[ghst]

finn was supposedly brought up and indoctrinated into a pseudo nazi authoritarian death cult but there was precisely fuck all exploration of this potentially intriguing character foundation. within five minutes of taking off his helmet he's throwing zingers like you're favourite marvel bros.

the "character indoctrinated into evil fleeing their roots and struggling to find redemption" is a great trope, and was likely the geneis sof finn's inception, but he was reduced to a bumbling good time goof within minutes with only the occasional crisis of confidence.

 

[brandonh83]

Rey's gonna tango with the Dark Side and love it

I know a lot of people are really against Episode VIII potentially being a parallel to Episode V, but I do think that perhaps there will come a moment where Rey makes a choice and Luke, from experience, advises against it, much like how Yoda advised against Luke going to Bespin. I wouldn't mind this if handled in a different, intellectual fashion.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I agree that the film's biggest flaw is a lack of attachment. I didn't know what any of those worlds destroyed were, nor do I have any reason to care. Lucas was far better at world building, even in the prequels. He just badly needed someone to reign him in and edit his work.

I wish I'd seen his Episode 7 script through Abrams' lens, but we'll never know.

7 was massively disappointing, but I'm invested enough to hope the next two can do better.

 

[BocoDragon]

I wish they hadn't let their fear of prequel-like exposition cause them to cut all the scenes explaining the New Republic/Resistence/Hosnian Prime/Leia's role.

I think it harmed the film a tiny bit by losing that stuff. They were so close to making that stuff work but they chose to be cryptic about it.

 

[Toxi]

I agree that the film's biggest flaw is a lack of attachment. I didn't know what any of those worlds destroyed were, nor do I have any reason to care.

You're talking about one three minute scene in a two hour movie.

While I agree the entire Starkiller Base sequence and plotline were poorly handled, if there's a lack of attachment for you as the viewer, it's not because they didn't tell you what a Hosnian Prime was.

I wish they hadn't let their fear of prequel-like exposition cause them to cut all the scenes explaining the New Republic/Resistence/Hosnian Prime/Leia's role.

I think it harmed the film a tiny bit by losing that stuff. They were so close to making that stuff work but they chose to be cryptic about it.

I'm not sure why you listed this along everything else. Leia's a general. She does military stuff.

 

[BocoDragon]

You're talking about one three minute scene in a two hour movie.

It may be irrelevant to Finn and Rey, though it was the turning point of the actual "star war" aspect of Star Wars.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm not sure why you listed this along everything else. Leia's a general.

Leia's a general .... and that's all you know, because most of her efforts in the plot were cut at the last minute.

It originally showed how she pushes the New Republic senate on Hosnian Prime to take the First Order more seriously, but has to do it in the shadows through a contact because it would make her a target. It explains why she would be a general in the Resistance despite being a former diplomat in Republic affairs: because she fears the aggression of The First Order but the halls of power are stubbornly blind to it.

Leia/The resistence/the New Republic and their relationship to The First Order were once elaborated on, now cut from the film.

I don't always think a cut scene deserves to be in a movie, but when I specifically felt that context for the conflict was conspicuously absent to a flawed degree, I do think this context should have been in the film.

 

[heliosRAzi]

While I agree the entire Starkiller Base sequence and plotline were poorly handled, if there's a lack of attachment for you as the viewer, it's not because they didn't tell you what a Hosnian Prime was.

It's definitely the fault of the film if it doesn't engage the viewer on something as simple as that. If it works for you, that's great. But it doesn't work for a lot of people.

 

[brandonh83]

I think it harmed the film a tiny bit by losing that stuff. They were so close to making that stuff work but they chose to be cryptic about it.

I can see that. I don't think it was really cryptic, though. The opening crawl explains that there's a new Republic and the Resistance, led by Leia, is an extension of it. In the 20 years since the fall of the Empire, the First Order rose from it and the Resistance was put into place by the Republic to combat any potential threat. I would have appreciated more exposition and I think the second act could have greatly benefit from maybe showing scenes where Leia communicates to leaders around the various Republic planets before the First Order blows them all to shit.

 

[BocoDragon]

I can see that. I don't think it was really cryptic, though. The opening crawl explains that there's a new Republic and the Resistance, led by Leia, is an extension of it. In the 20 years since the fall of the Empire, the First Order rose from it and the Resistance was put into place by the Republic to combat any potential threat. I would have appreciated more exposition and I think the second act could have greatly benefit from maybe showing scenes where Leia communicates to leaders around the various Republic planets before the First Order blows them all to shit.

I can't be the only one who thought "oh, it's Coruscant!.... WHAT? they blew up Coruscant??"

 

[cj_iwakura]

You're talking about one three minute scene in a two hour movie.

While I agree the entire Starkiller Base sequence and plotline were poorly handled, if there's a lack of attachment for you as the viewer, it's not because they didn't tell you what a Hosnian Prime was.

That's just the most glaring one, I could go on. Where the hell is the New Republic? How did they let the New Order run rampant? We have a 20 year time jump and we're expected to fill in the gaps on our own, or read a novel(which is the epitome of bad cinematic storytelling).

In the EU, the New Republic are a united front, not this silly 'Resistance / Republic' divide.

 

[MisterHero]

I can't be the only one who thought "oh, it's Coruscant!.... WHAT? they blew up Coruscant??"

I didn't want to believe JJ would blow up a famous planet in Star Trek and do the same in Star Wars... though the latter has a history of blown up planets. lol

The threat's gotta escalate somehow.

 

[Toxi]

That's just the most glaring one, I could go on. Where the hell is the New Republic? How did they let the New Order run rampant? We have a 20 year time jump and we're expected to fill in the gaps on our own, or read a novel(which is the epitome of bad cinematic storytelling).

I'm not sure why this is so galling.

Fun fact: "New Republic" is not mentioned once in the entire OT. The entire concept of the New Republic strictly comes from non-movie materials and from The Force Awakens itself.

In the EU, the New Republic are a united front, not this silly 'Resistance / Republic' divide.

If you mean the old EU, LOL not in the slightest.

 

[kame-sennin]

You don't have to work backwards or forwards to figure it out. It's spelled out clearly. It's a big deal because entire planets are being destroyed. You got some quips about Alderaan but I don't see how that makes that any better.

To each his own I guess.

This:

is what makes the destruction of Alderaan matter, and what is sorely missing from TFA.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

I was watching the movie and seeing how much they were copying the OT and was entertained enough.

Then Death Star III blew up a whole galaxy and the movie skipped over it instead of copying the 'Obi Wan feels pain over billions dead' moment.

So then I didnt know what was happening anymore.

 

[Laekon]

I don't think they offloaded the development to future movies.

Rey, for example, gets plenty. She starts off scavenging a Star Destroyer. A nobody. Salvaging parts for one meal a day. You feel her struggle. You get your typical Star Wars chance meetings because of her deep down caring about BB-8. One thing leads to another. She goes from a nobody to defeating the leader of the First Order in a duel and locating Luke Skywalker. It isn't void of development nor is it any lesser than what you get in A New Hope by comparison.

You may not agree with this and some obviously don't. But Episode VII is clearly the first of three. It's almost like the movies themselves are a three act structure. The original trilogy ended up being just that, as all trilogies are. This was the introductory. Unlike ANH, they announced the new trilogy right off the bat, three episodes. It's in a different position. Episode VII sets it all up and introduces everyone. The following films will capitalize on it further and add more depth. That's how this works.

I don't agree with this at all. She isn't struggling she just has a shit life like lots of regular people. She isn't struggling between helping to support a family or fulfill a dream like Luke was in ANH. She wasn't a gifted child being held back because she was a slave. She was a day labor scavenger for no reason. The fact we know nothing and learn nothing of her background in the movie makes it so that her character doesn't have a struggle.

I still can't get over the blowing up 5 planets for no effect on the story. The great Jedi Luke doesn't feel that and think he should try and stop it?

 

[Karak]

I don't agree with this at all. She isn't struggling she just has a shit life like lots of regular people. She isn't struggling between helping to support a family or fulfill a dream like Luke was in ANH. She wasn't a gifted child being held back because she was a slave. She was a day labor scavenger for no reason. The fact we know nothing and learn nothing of her background in the movie makes it so that her character doesn't have a struggle.

I still can't get over the blowing up 5 planets for no effect on the story. The great Jedi Luke doesn't feel that and think he should try and stop it?

I was wondering this because when Kylo meets her he says "The girl I have heard so much about?" ...but where and when?

I do have to say Finn reacted to Ray being kidnapped was a pretty good emotional moment. But other than that the entire thing is just dull from start to finish emotionally.

finn was supposedly brought up and indoctrinated into a pseudo nazi authoritarian death cult but there was precisely fuck all exploration of this potentially intriguing character foundation. within five minutes of taking off his helmet he's throwing zingers like you're favourite marvel bros.

the "character indoctrinated into evil fleeing their roots and struggling to find redemption" is a great trope, and was likely the geneis sof finn's inception, but he was reduced to a bumbling good time goof within minutes with only the occasional crisis of confidence.

Who then grabs a lightsaber and meets the only Stormtrooper with an antiquited anti-lightsaber weapon.

The thing about this to me is JJ isn't known for emotionally poignant or even overall complicated narrative. He is known for entertaining movies but of a different kind. Sort of expected this kind of stuff when it was announced he was involved.

 

[Monocle]

Well... I think TFA was a pretty great film all round. Fun, easy to watch, moves along at a great pace so it's eminently re-watchable. Loved Finn and Rey, and Po. BB-8 was absolutely perfect. Yeah it retreaded a hell of a lot of old ground, but I can forgive them just wanting to make a decent Star Wars film after the dirge that was the prequels.

I tend not to watch A New Hope much these days. It is where this all started but I find it to be quite a dull film overall. It obviously has some great moments and introduces us to these characters, but it was from Empire where I feel Star Wars really found itself and Empire in particular just absolutely nailed it.

I feel this is where we are at. We have our New Hope, we have our cast of heroes and villains, and we have questions that need answered. I think and hope that Johnson's Episode 8 does another Empire in terms of giving us a new direction for this universe, something deeper and more meaningful, something that can retroactively also help to build up what came before.

Star Wars has always felt greater than the sum of its parts, some intangible depth that you only feel, it's in your imagination and not something literally committed to film. We all fill in the gaps just a little and make it our Star Wars, I feel the universe built in TFA has scope for the future. It was well made too and visually stimulating, something I really think the prequels categorically failed on. And I'm not talking about ship designs or planet concepts, I mean the literal way it was put on screen, the layering, the lighting, everything was dynamic and felt tangible in a way the prequels completely got wrong and felt out of step with the universe we'd grown to know and love in the original trilogy.

I'm confident TFA will be a great first entry into a potentially fantastic trilogy once all is said and done.

Good post, I totally agree.

 

[EGM1966]

Don't like gimmick and caps but can't argue with points too much.

I liked TFA "in the moment" too but Starkiller base sub plot shouldn't have been there at all, the situation for protagonists and antagonists should have been much clearer and he nailed my main issue with the director in terms of failing to nail central tenants of narrative/character driven films.

That said the flaws were benefits for Disney and JJ was the right director to accomplish the defined mission: remake A New Hope, have old/new roles and give the audience what they want (Falcon, fun humour and some human drama) and avoid prequel association like the plague.

That said if they don't allow the franchise to Nilsson creatively with the next one my interest will drop sharply.

As for JJ I remain unconvinced he's a competent director of feature films with respect to narrative honesty and character honesty.

He cheats and shortcuts narrative progression any way that suits the moment and creates artifices that fall apart easily under criticism.

 

[platakul]

creates artifices that fall apart easily under criticism.

This I agree with. It's like how the geography doesn't work in Jurassic Park. No one actually cares because Spielberg is a master, but with JJ

 

[Skinpop]

One of the most frustrating things about criticizing TFA is that you can always answer each criticism with "at least it's better than the prequels". You're not wrong, but I thought we were setting the bar higher than that.

I don't agree with that criticism.. The prequels are deeply flawed in that they have crap dialogue, at times horrible acting and annoying characters. TFA on the other hand seems solid on those points and also does a better job at pushing all the nostalgia buttons(after all it's what they engineered the product to do), but I would still rather watch any of the prequels than rewatch TFA again. For all their flaws, the prequels have originality and doesn't seem to be made as a cash grab or for pandering to the fan base. Lucas had a vision and passion for his sw universe and stuck to it despite backlash and I'd trade TFA for a VII made by him any day even if it had the same issues as his later movies.

Also while it doesn't necessarily change anything about the quality of the movie the fact that Lucas didn't write the story for VII means it has no legitimacy as the continuation to the sw saga so as a sequel it's inherently uninteresting though on its own I guess some might find it intriguing enough anyway.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

The world building in TFA was really bad, especially when there was so much already in place they could've worked with or expanded upon. The texts scrolls by at the beginning and we're already told about the Empire #2 First Order, what a weak retreat. And this make-shift order can annihilate large parts of the republic by building a humongous super weapon stronger than the Death Stars (hey, retreating yet again, how exciting!) within 30 years.

I mean, maybe there's some movie-external material explaining in detail how this all happened and why it isn't incredible lame but just being fed the gist of it at the beginning sure was underwhelming. Luke Skywalker being on the run / on exile and researching some Jedi temple isn't getting me pumped either.

Most of the world building concerning Rey, Kylo and Snoke is also either way in the past and awkwardly referenced or shrouded in mystery as of TFA. That stuff might turn out to be an interesting addition within the next two movies but fell flat here.

Man, even the new Stormtroopers feel generic compared to the clone troupes and what not. It's also kinda nonsensical how Finn is just this 'bro' type of character when we're told how strict their indoctrination and training is. "They're programmed from early on" and so forth, yet, Finn gets upset, deserts the First Order and appears to be just an average dude in matters of social skills and such? How is that even possible? You're telling me the First Order somehow doesn't have the means to produce properly brainwashed, loyal troops?

If you first tell me that their new methodology makes for much better soldiers then at least give us a reason as to why Finn is the special exception. Will he be force sensitive too or what? His character just doesn't make any sense in the context. He's a likable guy, sure, but with his origin story he shouldn't really be that.

 

[heliosRAzi]

This I agree with. It's like how the geography doesn't work in Jurassic Park. No one actually cares because Spielberg is a master, but with JJ

And you can go back and rewatch Jurassic Park many times even knowing that the geography doesn't work and still think it's a great movie.

 

[JB1981]

Lots to chew on here. The point that most immediately stood out to me is the lack of obstacles Rey faced in her arc as a character. She might not be a Mary Sue per se but she certainly didn't have a compelling struggle

 

[Interfectum]

After getting some distance from the film I'm definitely coming more to the side of Hulk's review here.

I still really enjoyed the movie and thrill Star Wars is back in the mainstream but there are big chunks of the movie that don't hold up under scrutiny and time.

The lack of exposition is a huge deal. You get no sense of the state of the universe in this movie. Who are the big players, what do they want and where are they going? And yes, pointing us to books and articles outside of the movie is a copout. That shit should have been in the film.

The Starkiller Base should not have been in the film. From creation to it's destruction it makes no sense and is there because "we need a Death Star." I've gone to countless Star Wars lore forums (god help me) to see how even the most avid Star Wars fans try to explain the Starkiller base and most can't.

Not enough time for exposition? Cut out some of the bullshit. The scene in the ship with the Rathars was completely unnecessary. We already have enough scenes that show how badass and smart Rey is, we didn't need another and it hurt the pacing of the movie. Meeting Han and chilling on the ship would have been some good downtime before the main event but instead we are treated to some CGI monsters doing wacky things.

Oh and I don't think anyone can argue how badly Captain Phasma was handled. I'm at a loss why she was even in the movie tbh. "First Order is awesome... now lemme lower the shields to the mega-base with barely any protest and get thrown in the trash." What a great character!

I'm hoping Episode 8 is a more nuanced and better paced movie.

 

[DavidDesu]

I don't think it's irredeemable. Episode VIII probably will have some analogue to Yoda's wisdom (Luke's wisdom, I'd imagine). I'll be impressed if the spiritual angle returns.... because if it just becomes a full on magic power universe I think they will have quietly destroyed what makes Star Wars special.

I find it odd you think the new trilogy is going to forget about the mysticism of the Force. Like seriously? Of course it's not. I don't see how Rey's use of the force, after being instructed by Maz that it will guide her once she lets it in (which she finally does at the end), is any different from Luke at the end of ANH. Luke, a farm boy with little combat experience manages to switch off his technological aid and just wings it, successfully blowing up the Death Star against all odds. That is apparently fine but Rey, who is a mystery as a character and clearly has some Force heritage she either doesn't know about or has suppressed, can't tap into the force to beat a heavily wounded and psychologically messed up villain in Kylo Ren.

 

[DAVIDHUXLEY]

His all caps are annoying and his criticism isn't worth the effort. It's try hard film criticism that wants to be more important than it really is.

Funny he was just on The Canon podcast and came across a bit milquetoast imo.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

The world building in TFA was really bad, especially when there was so much already in place they could've worked with or expanded upon. The texts scrolls by at the beginning and we're already told about the Empire #2 First Order, what a weak retreat. And this make-shift order can annihilate large parts of the republic by building a humongous super weapon stronger than the Death Stars (hey, retreating yet again, how exciting!) within 30 years.

I mean, maybe there's some movie-external material explaining in detail how this all happened and why it isn't incredible lame but just being fed the gist of it at the beginning sure was underwhelming. Luke Skywalker being on the run / on exile and researching some Jedi temple isn't getting me pumped either.

The most disappointing part of TFA for me is the squandered potential. They could have done something entirely new and far more interesting based on the struggles of a movement growing from the ashes of what was left after RofJ. Or any number of other things.

Instead, we got a quasi-reboot where it felt as if almost nothing that transpired in the first 3 movies mattered. That's what annoys me. They could have done so much more, but now we're left with a series of movies about an Empire 2.0.

Sigh

 

[heliosRAzi]

The most disappointing part of TFA for me is the squandered potential. They could have done something entirely new and far more interesting based on the struggles of a movement growing from the ashes of what was left after RofJ. Or any number of other things.

They played the story too safe.