VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Well that didn't take long. Leave it to engadget to make a stupid comment at the end though. :lol
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.
- Thread starter HyperionX
- Start date
- Status
The Main Event
Member
VanMardigan said:
The Engadget website is becoming such a joke.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Color me Not Surprised. As I said, even if some contract somewhere were up/over, it means squat until titles are announced.
The way I see it, even if one format "wins," it may not truly succeed DVD the way we'd like it to. Hardware prices are too high (especially on the Blu-ray side), and disc prices are unpalatable as well. I'm totally sold on HD movies, but I just can't bring myself to pay $34.99 for a FOX BD title, much as I might want it. (Come to think of it, $24.99 for an HD DVD title is too much as well.)
The mass market doesn't give two shits about either format as of yet, and until prices of both hardware and software come way down, that'll continue to be the case.
In the meantime, I don't really care what happens as long as the movies keep coming and the lead times at Netflix aren't long.
The mass market doesn't give two shits about either format as of yet, and until prices of both hardware and software come way down, that'll continue to be the case.
In the meantime, I don't really care what happens as long as the movies keep coming and the lead times at Netflix aren't long.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The prices will come down extremely quickly.
DarkJediKnight
Member
Kolgar said:
My dad bought a Toshiba DVD player for $799 and Twister DVD for $56.99 during Christmas 1997. New Technology isn't cheap. DVD will be around for a while until the studios notice that they can live off of HD format. Then they will start giving special editions, unrated cuts through seamless branching on HD only and the theatrical cuts on DVD. They'll find a way to make you spend the extra money to get HD. It happened with DVD and it'll happen again.
True, but I've encountered friends and acquaintances who've become outright hostile at the thought of a new format. As if DVD is the end of the line, they've got their collections, they're happy with the quality, and they'll be damned if they'll buy anything else.
Perhaps that's normal during a format transition; I haven't lived through very many of them. But man, some of the reactions have been pretty ferocious. :lol
Perhaps that's normal during a format transition; I haven't lived through very many of them. But man, some of the reactions have been pretty ferocious. :lol
Kolgar said:
DVD players and DVD movies were comparable in the early years of that format.
If you're sold on HD movies (and HD in general), then the death of DVD is a foregone conclusion.
The only legitimate competition to Blu-Ray dominance is digital downloads, and I personally don't believe consumers are going to be ready for that any time soon.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
theBishop said:
The confidence. It's overwhelming. Why the hell is HD DVD even wasting it's time?
:lol
VanMardigan said:
The studio support is overwhelming. The low price of HD-DVD is fairly irrelevant since Blu-Ray players are available at a comparable price and HD-DVD movies typically cost more than the same Blu-Ray movie because of the hybrid technology. And Blu-Ray players will come down quickly once the format begins to hit the mainstream.
- technically superior
- better studio support
- larger installed base
What is HD-DVD offering again?
Warm Machine
Member
Technically superior hasn't been shown yet. Movie encoding is at best as good as HD-DVD. Sure it has all the extra disc space but that hasn't been used for anything thus far besides MPEG2 encoding. Basically right now Blu-Ray is setting people up for tons of double dipping as once the Java stuff gets worked out they will re release titles with all the features.
Install base is arguable based of tie ratios but I agree that the more players in homes the more you are likely to win over the long term.
Studio support is key to much of this and there is no arguing that the BR camp has lions share of the good support.
Install base is arguable based of tie ratios but I agree that the more players in homes the more you are likely to win over the long term.
Studio support is key to much of this and there is no arguing that the BR camp has lions share of the good support.
ChrisJames
Member
theBishop said:
-The only way that Blu-Ray is technically superior is in its disc capacity. In the image quality and audio quality departments, the two formats are essentially identical. Not to mention that many dual format releases (Warner Bros.) have better audio on the HD DVD disc. In addition, HD DVD has the ability for interactive features (U-Control) and can produce HD DVD/DVD combos. I hardly call that Blu-Ray technically superior.
-Better studio support is subjective. You can't just count the number of studios and count that as better support. HD DVD has the Matrix trilogy, Batman Begins, and V for Vendetta exclusively from Warner at the moment. Also, Universal has a ton of great movies (granted, they are mostly catalog titles such as Jaws, Jurassic Park, and many other classics that have all ready been released). Ultimately, Blu-Ray does have better studio support, but each format has its perks.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
BluRay has superior bandwidth as well.
Using what's released as a measure of what's possible in disingenuous. A studio choosing not to include a feature or audio track is not indicative of the technology.
The only thing HD-DVD has on BluRay is combo discs at the moment, which actually exacerbates its other weakness, less space.
Using what's released as a measure of what's possible in disingenuous. A studio choosing not to include a feature or audio track is not indicative of the technology.
The only thing HD-DVD has on BluRay is combo discs at the moment, which actually exacerbates its other weakness, less space.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Midas said:
Well yeah, tell me again the reasons why Warner would omit the HD audio, that both Blu-ray and HD-DVD support, on the Blu-ray release?
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Moneyhats? Seriously, I have no idea, since other releases have that same audio that's missing.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
theBishop said:
*Does double take* HD DVD, by virtue of offering consumer choice and format competition, is offering us plenty. Aggresively lower prices is just the beginning. Sure, some would prefer if it's swept under the rug, but until BDJ and the studios get their act together, HD DVD is offering the better experience. And if dual format devices can drop in price fast enough, there is no real reason why either format should disappear entirely.
I honestly don't believe that consumer adoption would be dramatically better if there was only one format. For one, equipment and software prices would still be higher, and that alone would outweigh the "consumer confidence" effect of having just one format. I really don't see how acceleration would be any quicker AT THIS POINT with just one format.
chinmonster
Member
Odd, here the Blu-Ray is about 4x the HD-DVD selection.LM4sure said:
Fact.teiresias said:
I just don't see how any of you can even declare a "victor" right now. I have both, and way more movies have come out / are coming out exclusively on Blu-Ray than I care about on HD-DVD.
DarkJediKnight
Member
VanMardigan said:
Fact of the matter is, for some reason, lossless audio is RARE on HD DVD. It could be bandwidth, disc space or both (King Kong). There is no such issues with Blu-ray. In fact, there have been discs with lossless and uncompressed audio on Blu-ray.
To me, the cost of the disc is the same for both formats, so if one format is to survive, I want the one that has the most potential.
ChrisJames said:
Patently false. BD has higher Video and Audio bitrate capability. Beyond that, the new AVC codec Sony has provided is actually more efficient than VC-1.
Couple those together, and you certainly have the ability for better video and audio.
(Another interesting possibility is that Sony will add DeepColor to the AVC encoding/decoding. This isnt a definite though, so obviously it should really be part of the decision making process just yet.)
Admittedly there hasnt been much to show this bit-rate and encoding efficiency advantage off just yet (at least video-wise). This is due to many of the neutral studios using the same transfer, as well as the BD-only studios simply not being up to speed with the transfer technology. This latter is to be expected, as we saw a similar situation with DVD. MPEG2 encoding, tools, and general engineering abilities increased over the years. It should also be noted that the new AVC codec was only recently released to studios.
This has been gone over several times. It is not just the quantity, but the quality or at least popularity.
The number of box-office hits (ie. movies that were high-grossing) is dramatically in favor of BD ... especially for the more recent titles.
While popularity does not a great movie make, it does increase the likelihood of a more popular platform. Remember, it all comes down to the almighty dollar, and BD simply is getting more titles that should sell in high volume.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
DarkJediKnight said:
Both have a ton of potential, but once a format dies, it will never reach its full potential. Both sides can add layers to create more space, and if HD DVD were to become the winner or hang around, you better believe lossless audio would eventually find it's way there. It's the same way that, if Blu Ray were to die TODAY, advanced interactivity on Blu Ray would be nothing BUT potential.
I can understand BRD fans in wanting the format war to end (and vice versa for HD DVD fans), but to shrug off HD DVD as worthless or to question its existence is plain ignorant and hypocritical when you consider most of them play on Ps3 (which, if you apply the same argument, shouldn't exist).
VanMardigan said:
Actually, the HD-DVD spec only goes to dual-layer. In order to keep up with Blu-Ray, a 3-layer disc was developed. However, the spec must be updated to reflect this, and existing players may not be compatible with the 51GB discs.
Nobody is saying HD-DVD is without merit. As an HD video format, its perfectly serviceable. But it isn't offering anything that necessitates a drawn-out format war. Blu-Ray has HD-DVD beat technically and commercially, so there's no justification for HD-DVD continuing to muddy the waters and prevent HD video adoption among a broader market outside the "early adopter" crowd.
I could understand if HD-DVD was offering anything superior to Blu-Ray, and consumers were "getting it wrong" in voting BR with their wallets. But it isn't the case.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
theBishop said:
Unless you're speaking strictly about future potential, HD DVD offers the better experience right now. And it's not like BDJ will automatically trump HDi, especially as both continue to evolve.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
theBishop said:
Exactly. HD-DVD is also offering lower-priced players, but that's a transitory thing. I don't think anyone expects player prices to stay high for very long-- the only question is how long.
As far as the PS3 thing-- you may dismiss people playing BD on PS3, but that is at leadt half the reason I bought the PS3 in the first place. Otherwise, I would have waited or bought a 360.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
VanMardigan said:
Anyone buying for the "right now" factor without taking into account the future is a very foolish person, IMHO.
I went BluRay not bacuase of the movies available, but becuase of the movies that I knew would likely be. The back-catalog titles on HD-DVD are better overall (quality and quantity) than BD, but that's been rapidly shifting.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Van: would you characterize yourself as more pro-HD-DVD or anti BluRay?
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Ignatz Mouse said:
I was not dismissing people playing BD on Ps3, I was simply finding correlations between folks claiming HD DVD should die by using claims that (if used on the console front) would apply directly to Ps3 also needing to die. It's hypocritical IMO.
Van: would you characterize yourself as more pro-HD-DVD or anti BluRay?
The truth is neither. I currently own a 360 add-on and am very much enjoying the HD DVD experience. I wouldn't even defend the format if the arguments weren't tinged with snide overtones that question why HD DVD exists AT ALL or stating that it just just roll over and die because they're BRD fanboys. It's not at all like folks who mock people for buying a Ps3 instead of Xbox for the same reasons (Xbox has more dev support, larger userbase, and more blockbuster releases this year).
Still, I'm not adverse to purchasing a Ps3 and buying Blu Ray movies. I'm also not adverse to selling the add-on and using the money to buy a Ps3 if Blu Ray turns out to be the winner. I'm not anti-Blu Ray AT ALL.
Anyone buying for the "right now" factor without taking into account the future is a very foolish person, IMHO.
You say that as if the "right now" shouldn't be at least an equal factor, which is absurd.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
VanMardigan said:
The PS3 concern is different for a couple of reasons.
1) Consoles have much bigger differences in features/capabilities than movies players
2) Consoles have first-party games.
Believe me, if I thought there could be a one-console future and that the content would not be controlled by a monopolistic entity, I would be all for it. Since the dawn of licensing games to play on systems (the NES) this has not been true, and the market, IMHO, suffers for it. Thank god the same level of content control does not apply to DVD players, music players, etc.
As far as the "right now" factor-- foolish becuase the "right now" pales so severely with what is to come, for *any* format. There are what, about 500 titles for both formats *combined*? Compared to what will come in even a year, that's a pittance. Smart money bets on the format that will get the best of that future library, not just the best there is today.
edit:
Lastly, a lot of the BluRay "fanboys" are probably like me, who wouldn't care which wins but wants the format war over ASAP so that the titles can start flowing. I could give a shit about the intereactive stuff if it means I can't get half the movies I want in HD at all.
Warm Machine
Member
teiresias said:
Don't be mean man, I know that. I just said that the only the ones encoded in MPEG2 have used that extra space. The VC1/AVC encodes use less than 20gigs.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Ignatz Mouse said:
1. But isn't that what's being argued, the differences?
2. This format war is characterized by exclusive studios, which mirror what a first party dev means (exclusive content)
The second part of your post deals with sketchy guesswork about potential. The long and short of it being that if you're SO WORRIED about future potential over current experience, you shouldn't get either.
The last part of your post is simply false, since saying that folks here don't "care which wins" is laughable.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
VanMardigan said:
The format war is characterized by the same cancer that fosters system wars among consoles and makes me own several incompatible players to play the games I want. In no way do I want that for video also.
Worried? No. I expect one format or the other to win, and even better, it's probably the one I already own. Impatient? Yes. If I weren't imaptient, I would have gotten neither. Buy I have a nice HD projector and I want nice HD movies to go with. Now.
The last sentance is just your blind spot. People may care, but I'll bet money that most care faar more abotu the war being over than which format wins out. One reason things got rabidly anti-HD-DVD in January was that it started to look lipsided enough to think the shake-out might accellerate. If tomorrow HD-DVD won out, studios swapped sides, etc, I'd only have to get a player and new titles, and as I said, player prices (both formats) will fal quickly.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Well, as I said, I'd just get a Ps3 and go Blu Ray if it won out. See, I don't care either, but if folks are going to hammer at HD DVD like it shouldn't exist, then I post.
And if the posts I was responding to strike you as those coming from people who "don't care which format wins", I'll say I have to disagree. Strongly.
And if the posts I was responding to strike you as those coming from people who "don't care which format wins", I'll say I have to disagree. Strongly.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
VanMardigan said:
It's like Sparta, people want to toss the weak baby over the wall.
Seriously, there were a fair number of people acting the same way when HD-DVD was ahead, and I think for the same reason. One format future is the only one that makes sense, until the hybrid players come down in price. Even then, that's more confusing than just one format.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
VanMardigan said:
Looking back, it seems you mean DarkJediKnight and theBishop. Why don't we ask them?
Hey guys, which would you prefer, HD-DVD wins or a split market?
Which matters more to you, BluRay winning out or *either* format winning out?
fortified_concept
Banned
VanMardigan said:
Wow really I didn't know all that. You learn a lot in this thread. I've learnt that HD-DVD has momentum (Manabyte) that BRD studio(s) wanna go neutral and that X360 has more dev support (wow) and blockbuster releases this year but you personally have a big enough heart not to mock PS3 owners. Oh and that like Manabyte you're not anti-Bluray or anti-Sony at all.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DarkJediKnight said:
Your dad got ripped off, bigtime. When I went to the store to buy my first DVD player at Fedco (one of only two chains in San Diego to get players and software at launch as San Diego was not one of the initial seven cities chosen) the Toshiba 2006 was $499.99 and the Toshiba 3006 was $599.99. I bought Twister for $19.99. The first DVDs I saw for more than $19.99 were the first wave of four Sony titles in early May for $24.99.
DarkJediKnight
Member
TAJ said:
That's in Canadian Dollars. We get everything late and at a higher price.
TAJ said:
Fox is, Disney isn't. Disney is $5 cheaper. Also, Disney uses highbitrate AVC or VC-1 + PCM audio. Disney offers video and audio in the least lossy form available. How many HD DVD combo discs do that? I can count 3 off hand.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DarkJediKnight said:
I see. You got a better price on the players, though the prices might have come down a bit here by the end of the year when your dad bought his. I wouldn't know since I didn't buy my second player until late '98, for $199.99. You guys did get hosed on the price of movies.
DarkJediKnight
Member
TAJ said:
And around 97, the Canadian dollar was 68c to the US dollar I think. My dad isn't dumb. I know he shopped around for the best price. DVD prices were high here for a long time.
- Status