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[nkarafo]

So i'm flipping through some mid 90's game magazines for fun, currently looking at Playstation/Saturn/early N64 era and in the UK CVG magazine there's a small "retro" section, complete with vintage looking aesthetics. The games featured in this page are stuff from the early to late 80's. Basically just a decade earlier.

Same thing goes for some PC magazines at the time. We are in the mid 90's, Quake being the best PC game and the early voodoo 3D accelerators just appearing. And at the time, the editors would sometimes ponder at the "good old times" they had a home computer such as the Amstrad or even the Amiga and use those memories to show how technology has progressed to "today". And i realize, again, it's only just a decade ago.

Which makes sense because the difference between something from 1986 to Quake is massive. Like, completely different look, feel, gameplay, tech, etc. And several orders of magnitude more powerful hardware, to the point where using 10y old hardware in the mid 90's makes absolutely no sense. Completely obsolete even at casual levels, you couldn't do anything with it, at all.

Nowadays a 10y old game looks like this:

Kinda doesn't look "retro" does it?

Even if you go another decade further into the past, you are still getting games like Crysis. Is that retro?

Plus, a 10y old hardware now, let's say a skylake PC build or something, still does the exact same things a current day PC does, just a bit slower. Like there's nothing it can't do. And you can still play modern games with it at somewhat lower settings. Imagine playing a slightly downgraded version of Quake on the NES. Something like that.

Not sure i would label anything after the PS2 generation as retro, tbh. It doesn't feel like such a massive jump as Super Mario Bros 1 to Quake 1.

Not sure if this is discussion worthy, just something fun that stuck out to me by reading those magazines.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Things progressed way faster back then. I know that’s a “no crap” statement but I think that skews perception

 

[BlackTron]

Diminishing returns: the Thread

 

[nkarafo]

Diminishing returns: the Thread

I know but seeing it through old magazines it makes it way more impressive.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Things progressed way faster back then. I know that’s a “no crap” statement but I think that skews perception

Yep, in the span of 10 years (1987 to 1997), there were 7 main Final Fantasy games, but between 2006 and 2016, only 3

 

[Guilty_AI]

 

[March Climber]

Diminishing returns: the Thread

3 threads in one day.

Which magazine issue was it OP?

 

[nkarafo]

Which magazine issue was it OP?

Any issue during the 5th gen coverage has the retro section page.

 

[Rentahamster]

Kinda doesn't look "retro" does it?

To be fair, the high end was a GTX 980 I think? Most gamers wouldn't be playing with those settings at that resolution in your screenshot.

 

[nkarafo]

To be fair, the high end was a GTX 980 I think? Most gamers wouldn't be playing with those settings at that resolution in your screenshot.

A GTX 980 is similar to a 1060. I played the game at high settings/1080p @ 40fps stable with that card.

 

[MrCunningham]

I would say that the first wave of nostalgia hit right around the time the PS1 and Sega Saturn were on the market. Most of it was for the early 1980's generation of arcade machines and the Atari 2600 era of games. That's also when we started seeing retro collections of games show up.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Retro is more of a design philosophy than an age designation at this point.

The difference, I think, is that games from the PS2 era and before tended to have a certain focus to the gameplay and aesthetics that changed when we hit the 360 era and beyond. Games from the 6th gen and before tended to be narrower in scope (in terms of piling on millions of gameplay systems, among other things) and smaller in scale since open-world hadn't become the monster it would be in Gen 7. There were games that tried to be cinematic, but it wasn't as much of a driving factor as it was after Gen 7 began. I'd also argue that Gen 6 was the last time when it felt like games were almost exclusively made by nerds, for nerds, and when there was an assumption of significant familiarity with gaming. Gen 7 did a lot more to be approachable and you had a lot more stuff that felt like babby's first [insert genre here].

It's a lot of generalities, but answering this question was always going to rely on that. Either way, I think that's the shift that determines "retro" vs not, and I think that approach has held up over time.

 

[BlackTron]

3 threads in one day.

Which magazine issue was it OP?

Actually the very next thread I walked into, someone was immediately like "diminishing returns!" lol

But yeah this is definitely a big part of why games aren't as interesting. If it took us 10 years to go from SNES to SotN 2D, new hardware would have begun feeling like more of a hassle than celebratory.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Then we chased 4k and still can’t reach it.

 

[Rentahamster]

A GTX 980 is similar to a 1060. I played the game at high settings/1080p @ 40fps stable with that card.

I think that screenshot is 1440p. During your playthrough, were you also using a 2015-era/equivalent CPU?

 

[Gaiff]

I had a similar discussion with a coworker today. We were talking about computers and he said his was quite old. I asked how old and he said it has an 8700K with a 980 Ti. It's still able to play most games except the most demanding ones like Black Myth Wukong or Alan Wake 2.

If we were in 2008, a PC from 1998 wouldn't be able to play anything after 2003.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

It's a similar thing in the 2000s, SNES games were already considered retro even though they were also only around a decade old.

I personally would consider Xbox 360 era games retro, but yeah, at some point this simply tapers off, The Order 1886 and Arkham Knight are not "retro" games, they looked better than a lot of stuff today.

 

[Ozzie666]

Soon as 3D hit and was all the rage, 2D games became second class retro citizens. PC gamers experienced the same thing with Doom being retro once fancy Unreal and Quake hit.

I still don’t consider PS2 retro yet.

 

[nial]

Gen 7 did a lot more to be approachable and you had a lot more stuff that felt like babby's first [insert genre here].

People said this about 6th gen games back in the day.
Which I agree with, modern gaming starts in 2000-2001. Dreamcast (and very late support of PS1, think Boku no Natsuyasumi) was pretty much the last bastion of the old era.

 

[kevboard]

yup, when I was 10 years old, the SNES was already retro to me, even tho it was only 9 years old (8 years in Europe) and I played games on it all the time.

the PS2 was out, the Dreamcast was out, and the Xbox and GameCube were about to come out.
the difference in graphics and hardware power between these systems and an SNES is so massive, it's almost incomprehensible.

meanwhile the PS5 is... like... a bit more than twice as powerful as an 8 year old last gen system...
and games look maybe 50% better and sometimes in fact worse than games on that 8 year old console...

times have changed drastically. it's similar to the situation in Archeology, where there is a defined "present" (1950), and everything after that present started can't be carbon dated anymore due to nuclear pollution.
the Xbox One and PS4 were that event for video games. I think games will never really feel "retro" anymore unless a shitload of time passes and big changes in game design paradigms happen.

in movies that same thing happened during the mid 2000s.
can you really tell the difference between a film from 2008 or a film from 2020 if both are roughly the same in terms of quality? unless a movie has very contemporary technology in the movie, I bet you can't.
meanwhile in 2005 you could absolutely tell the difference between a movie from the year 2000 and one from 1988

 

[bender]

Soon as 3D hit and was all the rage, 2D games became second class retro citizens. PC gamers experienced the same thing with Doom being retro once fancy Unreal and Quake hit.

I still don’t consider PS2 retro yet.

I think I do. While that generation laid a lot of groundwork for standardization of things like controller layouts, camera systems, and design tropes, the majority of those libraries didn't adhere to those standards for better and worse.

 

[nkarafo]

I think that screenshot is 1440p. During your playthrough, were you also using a 2015-era/equivalent CPU?

I was using a 2013 era i5 4670 CPU.

But i think we are nit-picking here. 1080p or 1440p doesn't really matter for the point i'm trying to make.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Putting timing into perspective, there's almost a 20 year gap between now and the start of the 360/PS3 era.

That's roughly the same time as going from 2600 to Dreamcast.

 

[nkarafo]

I think I do. While that generation laid a lot of groundwork for standardization of things like controller layouts, camera systems, and design tropes, the majority of those libraries didn't adhere to that standards for better and worse.

Dunno, maybe the only genre i would consider retro during the PS2 era is the open world games. GTA3 does feel a bit retro compared to modern open world, because during 6th gen those games were at their infancy and now look very clunky.

But other than that, i don't think any other genre feels retro to me during that time.

 

[diffusionx]

We didnt realize it at the time but gaming essentially froze when the PS4 came out.

 

[nkarafo]

I would say that the first wave of nostalgia hit right around the time the PS1 and Sega Saturn were on the market. Most of it was for the early 1980's generation of arcade machines and the Atari 2600 era of games. That's also when we started seeing retro collections of games show up.

There were such collections during the 16bit era too

 

[Mokus]

Aside from the visuals the gameplay innovation from one generation to the other were significant that could impact (and improve) how you were playing the newer games. Game designs also could make games from previous gen feel outdated.

Since the PS360 era not much changed other than visuals.

 

[MrCunningham]

There were such collections during the 16bit era too

There were quite a few 16 bit collections. I just meant that the nostalgia for this era or arcade games started to become more common around the release of the Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn during 1995-ish or so. Which is when this Williams collection was released. A few years earlier; nostalgia hadn't quite set in yet.

 

[GateofD]

now 10 year old games just get a remastered release

 

[Walter Matthau]

It feels like there should have been another jump in gaming that never fully materialized.

10 years ago I think it was assumed it would be VR.

Instead it’s been more subtle changes in visuals, gameplay, and immersion.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

It feels like there should have been another jump in gaming that never fully materialized.

10 years ago I think it was assumed it would be VR.

Instead it’s been more subtle changes in visuals, gameplay, and immersion.

The diminishing returns had to kick in at some point going for photorealism. Realistically, as with the past 10+ years, we can just expect further density of foliage/objects, better draw distance, better modeling, better physics.. hopefully. I'm just glad I was here for pretty much the whole ride up.

 

[MrCunningham]

It feels like there should have been another jump in gaming that never fully materialized.

10 years ago I think it was assumed it would be VR.

Instead it’s been more subtle changes in visuals, gameplay, and immersion.

Sadly, the next big 'leap' (if you can call it that) will be driven by AI generated content. Or at least, that's where technology is trying to go. I feel like technology has overshot the scopes of what development teams are capable of.

Not even with over extensive outsourcing, can they really keep up. Which is why we are seeing these insane pushes towards AI generated content. Just to meet up with the demands of the hardware.

In some ways, I am glad that Nintendo does put a cap on what their hardware is capable of. They stay a few generations behind, because their own internal teams can't cope with high end tech.

 

[Shadowstar39]

I'm glad you brought this up as I was thinking this thr other day. Playing stalker 2 and realizing the first games were almost 20 years old but they don't seem that antiquated. Back in the day pc and console tech was crazy in thr jumps of tech. Mores law is dead.

 

[DavidGzz]

now 10 year old games just get a remastered release

Unless they're Bloodborne cause fuck that game. I cri erytiem

 

[Comandr]

In 1995, Playstation got these games.

Meanwhile in 1985 we had

Yeah. In the mid 90s, 10 years prior was retro af.

Today though, "retro" games for me are still 90s. Halo and Super Smash Bros Melee are definitely not retro to me. Old, perhaps, yes, not retro.

 

[Gp1]

In 10 years we went from this



to this




Plus the entire "gaming aesthetics" (art direction, etc) change pretty hard from late 80's/early 90's Nintendo/Sega era to early 2000's with the late Psone/ps2

 

[Hudo]

In the mid 90s, the "technical distance" between games released in the mid 80s to games released in the mid 90s was quite a lot bigger than the "technical distance" between games from 2015 and 2025.

Or in other words: You had early 8-Bit Nintendo games and C64 games in 1985, 1986 vs. Command & Conquer or 3D Playstation games.
As you have said, games from 10 years ago basically don't look that much different from games released today. It's combination of "diminishing returns", long-ass development times and conservative evolution of console hardware and PC hardware and development tools. "AI" won't give us better graphics in the sense that you might want but it will give us a toolset with which to, hopefully, cut down development times again. Because games taking 8+ years is not fucking normal and should worry every project manager in gaming.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Retro is basically 16 bit or lower. Or perhaps PS1 gen which didn't tackle 3D gameplay completely yet.

If you play a game such as Dead Space, Modern Warfare 1 on PS360 you can't really say they are retro. They have the same game logic as games from now, they just look less good on original hardware (but keep in mind similar looking mobile and even Switch games still come out). This is why its so easy to return to PS360 games, ofcourse, you have a worse performance and IQ on original hardware but the gameplay should feel familliar even though these are almost 20 years old.

 

[Soodanim]

I suppose it's not time but progression/evolution. GTA2 feels retro after just GTA3, but after that it all feels iterative to me. I will happily play the 3 trilogy over 5, and by doing so I'm not missing out on much. The graphics and shooting have changed, but all of the elements are there. Arguably in a leaner form, because as the series grew there was a need to keep adding things. To some that's bloat.

Resident Evil 1-CV aren't referred to as the retro games, they're referred to as the classic games. Their naming marks a gameplay shift, but we still don't treat them as retro.

I think after 3D stopped being an experimental prototype the biggest leap had been taken. Whether PS1 was still in that experimental 3D phase or not is up for debate as it's a mixed bag of results at times and things like dual analog were still being phased in, but PS2 onwards is well and truly past it. What changed after the DualShock? The left stick placement on some platforms.

Nowadays the industry is far more dictated by guaranteed profit, and that stifles change. You aren't seeing the sorts of games people have posted ITT invented now because that's a risky thing to do.

 

[Emedan]

NES > SNES > N64/PS1 > GC/PS2 were all massive leaps in graphical fidelity. Since we got another dimension it was even more pronounced. PS2 > PS3 generation too to some extent that it wen to HD but many early games for PS3/360 looked like upressed last gen games so it wasn't quite that staggering.

 

[MrCunningham]

Yeah. In the mid 90s, 10 years prior was retro af.

I don't recall Nintendo games being 'retro' by the year 1995. At that point, it was more about the second generation console stuff and early 80's arcade games. NEStalgia didn't set in until like 2005-2010. Right around the time the Angry Nintendo Nerd was gaining some popularity on the interwebz.

 

[rofif]

Well yeah. Imagine what 1995 game looks like in 2005. It’s not even 3d.
Now we still play dark souls and it still looks legit good. Not just serviceable

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

To put things in perspective: GTAV and Mario Kart 8 are still featuring in sale charts. They released in 2013 and 2014, respectively. Imagine Super Mario Bros being among the 10 best-selling games in the year of Tekken and Wipeout. Or Super Mario World in the year FF9 released.

Today there’s definitely a difference between “old” and “retro”. They are not the same thing. “Retro” also implies a stark difference in concept, themes, scope, interface and gameplay. As SkylineRKR said, games from the 7th gen may be old, but they definitely don’t feel retro. The overall template of games, and player’s expectations, haven’t changed that much since then. Meanwhile, going back to spending hours on Galaga or OG Donkey Kong was as unlikely in 1995 as it is today.

Games get “old” much faster than they get “retro”. I remember reading than when Nintendo introduced the Famicom in 1983, some commentators were like “What? You guys still doing Donkey Kong?” The game was barely two years old at that point!

We also have to consider that controls and user interface have been stagnating for a long time. The standard controllers we’re using today are, for all intents and purposes, the same controller PlayStation was already using in 1997. And gamers at large systematically rejected each and any attempt at shaking things up. This has been a factor in the lack of evolution, as much as the diminishing returns in graphics.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Stuff moved fast pre 00s, especially technology. Even 80s movies and clothes became somewhat retro in 90s.

It's hard to describe how much things slowed after the 00s and even more so after the 10s. We had it so good, we were not even aware. And how could we as most of us just knew improvement. No one could have known how much progress will be stalled at some point.

 

[MrCunningham]

Well yeah. Imagine what 1995 game looks like in 2005. It’s not even 3d.
Now we still play dark souls and it still looks legit good. Not just serviceable

I personally do not have to imagine any of these things. I was 14 in 1995, so I was there. I was in the target audience for gaming in general.1995 was a crazy time for console hardware, as well as arcade hardware and even PC hardware.

Arcade hardware was really the first to take steps into 3D, specially with Sega's Model 2 hardware and Namco's Playstation arcade hardware. On the home console front, There was the 3DO and Atari Jaguar with their early attempts at delivering '3D capable' consoles. There was also the launches of the Saturn and PSX in Japan and their first wave of 3D styled games. The N64 didn't arrive until 1996. On PC 3D hardware acceleration was still in its' infancy. some of the earlier micro computers attempted 3D as well.

I feel like 1996 was ground zero for 3D gaming taking over the market from 2D gaming. You had the second wave of 32bit console games, the N64, slightly more mature 3D acceleration hardware on PC, Sega releasing their Model 3 hardware in the arcades. There was a literal shift from 2D to 3D in the span of a year. It was pretty overwhelming at the time.

I also feel like that shift to 3D gaming caused nostalgia for the 'simpler times' of videogames. Also the NES was still being sold in stores up to 1994 and 1995. So there wasn't any real nostalgia for that console yet.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Stuff moved fast pre 00s, especially technology. Even 80s movies and clothes became somewhat retro in 90s.

I always had the impression that there was a collective, conscious effort to separate the 80s from the 90s. As soon as 1990 dropped, there was a quick shift in fashion, clothing, advertising, filmmaking. Even the fonts in ads and posters suddenly dropped all the serifs to look more “modern”. Everything got way more edgy in a very short time. The “we’re in the 90s now!” spirit was taken very seriously, and it showed in gaming too.

 

[kevboard]

Stuff moved fast pre 00s, especially technology. Even 80s movies and clothes became somewhat retro in 90s.

It's hard to describe how much things slowed after the 00s and even more so after the 10s. We had it so good, we were not even aware. And how could we as most of us just knew improvement. No one could have known how much progress will be stalled at some point.

that's also why the 80s is still the main decade people go for if they want to make something retro.
it's the last decade that seemed truly different.

GTA Vice City went 80s nostalgia all the way back in 2002... and the 80s retro wave is still going... whole fucking music genres are based on it.
modern hair metal bands, synth wave, Synth-pop, chiptunes etc.






and of course there's the entire Cyberpunk subgenre which is deeply rooted in 80s scifi iconography.

 

[nkarafo]

Also the NES was still being sold in stores up to 1994 and 1995. So there wasn't any real nostalgia for that console yet.

In my Country (Greece) the NES was officially released in 1991. Before that we had imports from UK or Germany. I remember both the Master System and NES still being sold in 1996. In 1995 we got a translated version of the American GamePro magazine and sometimes they would inject locally written reviews of 8bit games.

As a kid i didn't see the 8bit consoles as old/obsolete/retro. To me they were always like the cheap way to play videogames VS the expensive and fancier 16 bit (i was the poor kid so only a Master System for me up to 1994). As long as the games had scrolling, exploration and proper endings, i would consider them all modern. But i did consider the Atati 2600 kind games with infinite loops of the same thing and mostly single screen games as obsolete and that console was still being sold in the late 80's/early 90's.

After 3D became the norm with the PS1/N64, anything previously was becoming forgotten at a much quicker pace i guess.

 

[RoboFu]

In the 90s video games where barely over 10 years old as an industry and around 18 years when pong first landed anywhere.

 

[MrCunningham]

n my Country (Greece) the NES was officially released in 1991. Before that we had imports from UK or Germany. I remember both the Master System and NES still being sold in 1996. In 1995 we got a translated version of the American GamePro magazine and sometimes they would inject locally written reviews of 8bit games.

Oh neat. Yeah, the NES hung around for a long time in some regions of the world. Here in Canada the NES was officially discontinued in 1994. But the hardware was still being sold for like $75.00 or less. Maybe even $50. There were retailers who were still getting rid of old stock hardware. But by 1996, it was basically gone.

The Genesis (Yes, it was called that here, like the US) was discontinued in 1997, but Majesco sold the Genesis Model 3 in 1998. You could still find them in 1999-2000. The SNES hung around until 2000. In 1999 the Sega Dreamcast was released. Which was a big leap over the PS1 and N64. The Sega Saturn really was discontinued by 1998. It was a pretty big flop for Sega TBH, and the Genesis outlived it.