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[Sentenza]

You know what? I'll keep going.
Especially since I can recycle what I already wrote in the past rather than putting the effort from zero.

Here's a take about the armor system in DOS 2.


The problem with the armor system in DOS 2 is that it makes hardly any sense in principle and it creates way more problems that it solves.
Discouraging mixed sources of damage (which it factually does, it doesn't matter if you can work your way around it) is only the tip of the iceberg. There's also the fact that makes a certain amount of utility skills/spells utterly useless (not "unreliable" as much as literally 100% pointless to even attempt) until a certain threshold of damage has been passed, etc.

Basically it's a system of HP bloat (now in three different flavors!) that favors direct damage dealing above any other strategy. And conversely once that threshold of damage is surpassed the exact opposite becomes true, and some of these crowd controls become 100% reliable.

I mean, sure, you can learn to live with that. We all did.
But holy fucking Christ if it doesn't go straight in the bottom tier among all the countless attempts at "simulating damage mitigation" I've experienced across the years in different rulesets.

The system is simply bad. It splits combat into two phases:
- One where you avoid using most skills to not waste status effects.
- One where everyone is spamming status effects, or at least those characters who aren't currently stunned, knocked down or polymorphed into poultry while bleeding and on fire.

It also fails to have any semblance to anything.
Ablative HPs are generally not particularly good armour mechanics.
Ablative armour over entire battle duration is just singularly awful and being combined with cooldowns and stupidly abstract and highly segregated damage system (odd chloroform notwithstanding) doesn't do it any favours.

Smaller split pools depleted and replenishing on per turn basis might actually be quite tolerable both in terms of gameplay (encouraging more tactical approach than non-status alpha strike followed by status alpha strike) and in terms of making sense (overwhelming combatants defenses by concentrating attacks on them), but the system as it is is just a huge clusterfuck of concentrated derp.

There is a lot to like in DoS2 including sizable chunks of combat system, but there is no denying that large parts of it are just inexplicably bad. This includes armour system, damage system, ease of traversing terrain with everyone having jump, flight or teleportation abilities trivializing all those nice area layouts Larian lovingly made as well as lesser things such as nearly inconsequential initiative.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

You know what? I'll keep going.
Especially since I can recycle what I already wrote in the past rather than putting the effort from zero.

Here's a take about the armor system in DOS 2.


The problem with the armor system in DOS 2 is that it makes hardly any sense in principle and it creates way more problems that it solves.
Discouraging mixed sources of damage (which it factually does, it doesn't matter if you can work your way around it) is only the tip of the iceberg. There's also the fact that makes a certain amount of utility skills/spells utterly useless (not "unreliable" as much as literally 100% pointless to even attempt) until a certain threshold of damage has been passed, etc.

Basically it's a system of HP bloat (now in three different flavors!) that favors direct damage dealing above any other strategy. And conversely once that threshold of damage is surpassed the exact opposite becomes true, and some of these crowd controls become 100% reliable.

I mean, sure, you can learn to live with that. We all did.
But holy fucking Christ if it doesn't go straight in the bottom tier among all the countless attempts at "simulating damage mitigation" I've experienced across the years in different rulesets.

The system is simply bad. It splits combat into two phases:
- One where you avoid using most skills to not waste status effects.
- One where everyone is spamming status effects, or at least those characters who aren't currently stunned, knocked down or polymorphed into poultry while bleeding and on fire.

It also fails to have any semblance to anything.
Ablative HPs are generally not particularly good armour mechanics.
Ablative armour over entire battle duration is just singularly awful and being combined with cooldowns and stupidly abstract and highly segregated damage system (odd chloroform notwithstanding) doesn't do it any favours.

Smaller split pools depleted and replenishing on per turn basis might actually be quite tolerable both in terms of gameplay (encouraging more tactical approach than non-status alpha strike followed by status alpha strike) and in terms of making sense (overwhelming combatants defenses by concentrating attacks on them), but the system as it is is just a huge clusterfuck of concentrated derp.

There is a lot to like in DoS2 including sizable chunks of combat system, but there is no denying that large parts of it are just inexplicably bad. This includes armour system, damage system, ease of traversing terrain with everyone having jump, flight or teleportation abilities trivializing all those nice area layouts Larian lovingly made as well as lesser things such as nearly inconsequential initiative.

I think you are overthinking it. Sure design is not perfect but it doesn’t matter unless I try to min max everything.

Also game doesn’t tell me everything rule it follows. Which is for the better, so I can focus on stuff I find to be fun.

 

[Sentenza]

I agree with this. Was hoping BG3 will have BG2 level of awesome loot. But it failed to capitalise on that.

You "agree with this" and yet you reacted with a laughing emoji to a post that made this its entire point, criticizing Larian's previous attempts at randomized itemization?

That aside, itemization in BG3 may not reach the near-perfection that BG2 stroke, but it IS a lot closer to BG2 than DOS in principle.
And that's convincingly for the better.

In a scale from 1 to 10 if we make BG2 a "perfect 10" in itemization, BG3 would be a solid 7,5-8 and DOS 1 and 2 would be a fucking 4 or worse.
Not even a recent realization as far as I'm concerned. Since DOS 1 I spent almost 10 years commenting on how BAD the itemization in the DOS games was and how that aspect almost single-handedly crippled the quality of the progression curve for me.

 

[Sentenza]

I think you are overthinking it.

...Yeah?
that's what discussing game design and core mechanics is all about.
If you don't "overthink" about how the systems interact with each other (and what cascade effect they have on the way you play the game) you are not thinking about them at all.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

...Yeah?
that's what discussing game design and core mechanics is all about.
If you don't "overthink" about how the systems interact with each other (and what cascade effect they have on the way you play the game) you are not thinking about them at all.

I dont think about it cause game doesn’t encourage me to. I put more effort into learning a game when I hit a roadblock. Also that stuff isn’t in the game. I am strictly against using guides online myself so it puts a limit to understanding the rule set.

This I find to be enjoyable approach.

With that said, I think DOS 2 is superior in IM Sim elements and encounter design/difficulty balancing. Makes it a superior game to me.

 

[Sentenza]

No game ruleset with a steep leveling curve that basically forces you to follow a specific order may ever be a good basis for an "immersive sim" approach.
Which is exactly why DOS 2 wasn't.

Also, I'd be curious to listen to what type of "liberty of approach" DOS 2 had that you think is missing in BG3, because if anything Larian's last title was more reactive than in the past, rather than less.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Also, I'd be curious to listen to what type of "liberty of approach" DOS 2 had that you think is missing in BG3, because if anything Larian's last title was more reactive than in the past, rather than less.

Little stuff in DOS 2 like I could teleport npcs/ enemies to other areas to save them or put them out of fight etc. wasn’t possible in BG3.

Also some of the quests where stealth was mandatory, it wasn’t possible to sneak in without being noticed in BG3. Those felt much more open in DOS2.

Reactivity in BG3 was superior. It did a better job WRT companions being tied into main plot. DOS2 basically forces you to replay such huge rpg to see all companion stories. But still it wasn’t perfect cause it dictated a lot of choices I wanted to make in main story.

 

[Sentenza]

Little stuff in DOS 2 like I could teleport npcs/ enemies to other areas to save them or put them out of fight etc. wasn’t possible in BG3.

Also some of the quests where stealth was mandatory, it wasn’t possible to sneak in without being noticed in BG3. Those felt much more open in DOS2.

None of these claims is factual.
In fact both are wrong. The spell to "teleport other people" exists in BG3, you just need to be high level enough. Let alone teleport yourself, which is a basic level 2 spell.
And you can definitely sneak and be furtive basically anywhere in BG3 as well. In fact, it's the only game I can think of where NPC have CUSTOM REACTIONS and dedicated voice lines to being surprised by theft or a stealth ambush, so not only it is possible but the game explicitly and openly acknowledges it, which is an improved level of reactivity.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

None of these claims is factual.
In fact both are wrong. The spell to "teleport other people" exists in BG3, you just need to be high level enough. Let alone teleport yourself, which is a basic level 2 spell.
And you can definitely sneak and be furtive basically anywhere in BG3 as well. In fact, it's the only game I can think of where NPC have CUSTOM REACTIONS and dedicated voice lines to being surprised by theft or a stealth ambush, so not only it is possible but the game explicitly and openly acknowledges it, which is an improved level of reactivity.

You need a build for that. That specific character can use it.

Big departure from teleport pyramids that are usable by everyone.

Lack of open ended nature could be forgiven if hand crafted stuff was superior. Which I think was more or less comparable.

 

[Mozzarella]

I agree that DOS2 is not perfect, but holy shit it is miles ahead of all Bioware games in terms of gameplay and combat.

I can't wait to see what Larian game is next, after DOS2 and BG3 two masterpieces back to back, i am fully a fan of their work, they show nothing but improvement, unlike other CRPG devs who somehow keep downgrading.

 

[owandeseis]

Randomized loot from D:OS was great because it was limited, basically when you killed hard enemies or found new traders you could find new items but that was mostly it. and on each run, looting was more interesting, just like finding these traders, i understand for a single run it might be worse tho.

As for the combat, BG3 was arguably the easiest from Larian, the balance during the first 4 levels is great, but it gets too easy after that, there's too much damage and too many movements in each turn, ailments like burning are completely useless dealing 1-3 damage per turn when enemies end up having 200 hp and combats end in 2-3 turns normally.

This said, yes , D:OS 2's armor and magic shield on enemies was shit and it "forced" you to have a physical/magic only setup.

 

[GigaBowser]

real times combat and no woke crud

 

[Sentenza]

real times combat and no woke crud

Fuck off with that real time trash.

 

[bbeach123]

Hope they keep the enviroment check . Playing DOS2 map feel so boring compared to BG3 without the random chaos .

 

[Sentenza]

Randomized loot from D:OS was great because it was limited, basically when you killed hard enemies or found new traders you could find new items but that was mostly it. and on each run, looting was more interesting, just like finding these traders, i understand for a single run it might be worse tho.

It was BAD because of the exact opposite.
For a start, it hardly mattered what you accomplished because you could get a "good item" basically anywhere, even just opening a random empty container thanks to the AWFUL idea that was the skill Lucky Find.

The game also had a bunch of "Unique items" -which in any respectable RPG are usually supposed to be your premium shit- but here they were comically worthless, because given how item generation and power curve worked in the game they were outpaced in a heartbeat by any random trash even just a level above them.

More in general this idea that "randomized loot keeps things fresh and interesting" is really misplaced. It generally has the opposite effect of making everything you find feel generic and unremarkable.
And let's be real here... One of the greatest pleasures of replaying a RPG is planning ahead what to get and when in the most optimal way to achieve a specific character build. Systems that scale everything to your level and drown you in generic rewards at a frantic pace were never my cup of tea.
One of the very reasons I DESPISE the looter shooter genre, incidentally.

 

[GigaBowser]

Fuck off with that real time trash.

Spoiler

 

[Mozzarella]

It was BAD because of the exact opposite.
For a start, it hardly mattered what you accomplished because you could get a "good item" basically anywhere, even just opening a random empty container thanks to the AWFUL idea that was the skill Lucky Find.

The game also had a bunch of "Unique items" -which in any respectable RPG are usually supposed to be your premium shit- but here they were comically worthless, because given how item generation and power curve worked in the game they were outpaced in a heartbeat by any random trash even just a level above them.

More in general this idea that "randomized loot keeps things fresh and interesting" is really misplaced. It generally has the opposite effect of making everything you find feel generic and unremarkable.
And let's be real here... One of the greatest pleasures of replaying a RPG is planning ahead what to get and when in the most optimal way to achieve a specific character build. Systems that scale everything to your level and drown you in generic rewards at a frantic pace were never my cup of tea.
One of the very reasons I DESPISE the looter shooter genre, incidentally.

I love DOS2 for a lot of things but the biggest flaw in the game i feel was its itemization, i had no problem with the armor mechanic despite its shortcoming, its still a unique alternative to DnD, but yeah the way itemization worked by being inspired by Diablo was really awful, I'm glad BG3 changed that and made loot fixed.
I fully agree with this ^ post.

As for the combat, BG3 was arguably the easiest from Larian, the balance during the first 4 levels is great, but it gets too easy after that, there's too much damage and too many movements in each turn, ailments like burning are completely useless dealing 1-3 damage per turn when enemies end up having 200 hp and combats end in 2-3 turns normally.

This said, yes , D:OS 2's armor and magic shield on enemies was shit and it "forced" you to have a physical/magic only setup.

BG3 is more balanced that 90% of CRPGs.
DOS2 didn't force anything, you just have a more optimal build than the rest, you can finish the game with no problem by using a mixed damage party, its not like all encounters are built around one damage type, sometimes you get encounters with lets say 4 targets with high magic shield and 4 with high armor shield, if you have mixed party in this case its going to be good.
The problem with the armor mechanics isn't that it forces you to one party type, its rather that it takes away from the strategy depth of the combat, in BG3 you have way more depth in regarding how you approach the fight, do you start with CC? do you start by sneaking? do you start by using the encviroment, or just pure damage? or maybe a mix of two things? synergy between spells had instant effect, whereas in DOS2 despite its fun and great combat the strategy was always strip all the armor first then apply any CC or utility you can think of, this takes a layer out of combat and tanks the approaches you can do, despite that the tactics aspect is still high as you have hundreds of ways you can execute your strategy.
DOS2 combat isn't flawless but its still easily among the top tier turn-based combat systems.

 

[V1LÆM]

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[bbeach123]

I love DOS2 for a lot of things but the biggest flaw in the game i feel was its itemization, i had no problem with the armor mechanic despite its shortcoming, its still a unique alternative to DnD, but yeah the way itemization worked by being inspired by Diablo was really awful, I'm glad BG3 changed that and made loot fixed.
I fully agree with this ^ post.

I like fixed loot but not that much fixed . And I kinda hate how most of my good gears coming from shops .

 

[Mozzarella]

I like fixed loot but not that much fixed . And I kinda hate how most of my good gears coming from shops .

Randomized loot have a place in vidya, for example a roguelike should have randomized loot, but when a RPG like Nioh 2 or Divinity or even Witcher has that then it takes away from exploration and rewards.
Its way more interesting if you have an item from early game that can still find its place in some well made setup instead of just throwing the item on your next level up.

 

[bbeach123]

Randomized loot have a place in vidya, for example a roguelike should have randomized loot, but when a RPG like Nioh 2 or Divinity or even Witcher has that then it takes away from exploration and rewards.
Its way more interesting if you have an item from early game that can still find its place in some well made setup instead of just throwing the item on your next level up.

You're right , but its not what i meant .
The two can coexist tho .

 

[Sentenza]

Randomized loot have a place in vidya, for example a roguelike should have randomized loot, but when a RPG like Nioh 2 or Divinity or even Witcher has that then it takes away from exploration and rewards.
Its way more interesting if you have an item from early game that can still find its place in some well made setup instead of just throwing the item on your next level up.

For what is worth it's my opinion that even "roguelike" should maybe randomize the position of the loot you find, but not their specific values.
The "loot table" should be handcrafted in any case, basically.

 

[Hudo]

Fuck off with that real time trash.

If I could, I would have sex in turn-based mode.