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[Stone Ocean]

There is virtually no difference in practice between 500 and 525. A sub 550 carry is a sub 550 carry period, 25 range isn't stopping you from dying because of positioning or getting harassed by higher ranged carries.

If he would be fine at 525, he is fine now.

 

[jost]

I tried to like Lucian so much, I believe I even bought his skin. I could never really get into him, didn't like the feel, didn't like the kit.

 

[Edwardo]

Sitting in a teambuilder queue right now, about to try Lucian.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

There is virtually no difference in practice between 500 and 525. A sub 550 carry is a sub 550 carry period, 25 range isn't stopping you from dying because of positioning or getting harassed by higher ranged carries.

If he would be fine at 525, he is fine now.

that is patently untrue. 525 range is reserved for 2 of the more mobile carries with a bit of burst. It allows them to use their mobility and gap closers to close distance against some of the longer range carries, while also still having a slight range disadvantage. They'll get poked a bit more by 550 range carries and will have a tough time against the even longer ranged ones, but generally at 525 range they have a good tradeoff for the damage they bring.

At 500 range, that's not the case. They have a large disadvantage against even 550 range champions. CSing is incredibly difficult in terms of harass. You know how annoying it is to play against the 600 range Ashe as even a 550 range champion? It's the same for 500 range champs against 550 range champs. Perhaps worse.

If 25 range made no difference, then Varus' 575 range wouldn't be a lane advantage. But it is.

Lucian would have fit perfectly fine into the 525 bursty and mobile category. Instead he went to the 500 category, i.e. where Kog and Sivir are. Kog has an ability to boost his range. Sivir operates at a longer range, provides massive team utility and pushes incredibly hard making her range disadvantage less of an issue.

500 range was the wrong category to put Lucian in.

 

[Edwardo]

IDK I don't think I like this. Gonna have to mess around with him for a lil while I guess.

 

[Stone Ocean]

It's a lane advantage but Varus doesn't suddenly turn into Cait against 550 range carries.

My point is that in practice it's the same. In teamfights if you were to die because of positioning at 500 range, 525 wouldn't have saved you. In lane if you are getting poked down by 550+ range carries at 500, you will get poked down pretty much the same way at 525. 500 doesn't mean suddenly every carry will poke you down. Also your burst and mobile category has a flaw called Jinx, which she is neither in minigun stance.

You keep saying Lucian doesn't have the tools to survive like Sivir "who operates at a larger range" when his skills hit farther than Boomerang Blade (1000 range, Q hits as far as 1100, same for W, ult is 1400, start using minons to increase your range as it should be instead of just using Q as an auto reset), he also pushes lane easily - and that got buffed by the way, since his Q now hits for 100% on minions - he has a 425 range dash to get in range for autos and the ability to reset it and use it go get out or just get more damage.

Decreasing his range to 525 would have solved nothing, specially considering he was designed in that range but they gave him 550 because Riot didn't want another Quinn. If he is indeed weak they can always increase buff his strengths to compensate, but the range call was right, if he's shit it's a number issue and not a range one.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Operating at a longer range does not only mean offensively. She has a spell shield to block harass or engage. Not to mention her ult. A massive, team wide engage spell. Her passive lets her approach and auto champions and get out quickly when she needs, without relying on having a full rotation of spells up like Lucian. There is so much utility there. And Lucian may push decently, but it's nowhere near as good as Sivir. Lucian does not have the tools a 500 range carry needs.

And I can't believe you're bringing up Jinx. She gets to choose what range she operates at. Lucian does not. What an awful example.

I'm not discussing Lucian any more. It's like talking to a brick wall.

You're letting your dislike for Lucian cloud your judgement on his strength.

Please go and play him, then tell me he is perfectly good at 500 range.

 

[Mothman91]

Was watching Qtpie and he was shitting on the new Lucian. "If you E in....lol".

He said maybe he can work in mid lane.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I'm not discussing the state of his balance. I'm saying that his kit itself is fine for 500 range.

If he's indeed shit then that's because Riot didn't tune his strengths accordingly, which should be fixed by next patch.

 

[TomShoe]

Everybody crying over Lucian

why not twitch

Rito smacked him in the face with that Q nerf

stupid metanerds playing him and getting him nerfed

 

[Edwardo]

Was watching Qtpie and he was shitting on the new Lucian. "If you E in....lol".

He said maybe he can work in mid lane.

Yea E Q W and E out with the the lightslinger procs in between is pretty nice, but I really dont like dashing towards my enemies. Skirting around the battles with it works better. As long as you do it right you'll have E up whenever u need it.

 

[Stone Ocean]

We still gotta see how the BT buff will affect Lucian anyways.

Everybody crying over Lucian

why not twitch

Rito smacked him in the face with that Q nerf

stupid metanerds playing him and getting him nerfed

Twitch is perfectly fine.

 

[zkylon]

new bt prolly won't really change anything for anyone, it'll just make it a nicer lategame item/good lifesteal alternative to bjork

i'm guessing it's hard since they want bt to be the adc defensive item and if they make an awesome item for like lucy and graves and other caster adcs then talon and zed and shit will go crazy about it and make the game unplayable

 

[Stone Ocean]

new bt prolly won't really change anything for anyone, it'll just make it a nicer lategame item/good lifesteal alternative to bjork

i'm guessing it's hard since they want bt to be the adc defensive item and if they make an awesome item for like lucy and graves and other caster adcs then talon and zed and shit will go crazy about it and make the game unplayable

It's times like this that I wish League had a 3rd offensive stat like Dota.

 

[NCR Redslayer]

So this is how EU Gaf must feel like.

 

[Achtius]

every single day. probably lol

 

[zkylon]

maybe

the same thing popped up during the support changes, people wanting there'd be a utility power stat or something

imo as it is right now they could just buff the caster adcs a bit, no need for anything huge. i really think riot dropped the ball by buffing tristana and nerfing lucy so close to the adc item changes specially since they already buffed trist/nerfed lucy by destroying bt.

and they should really rework tristana

 

[Einbroch]

whats eu

 

[Ghost is Bad]

patching takes forever.

 

[Snowman]

I'm not discussing the state of his balance. I'm saying that his kit itself is fine for 500 range.

If he's indeed shit then that's because Riot didn't tune his strengths accordingly, which should be fixed by next patch.

His kit isn't fine with 500 range though, because a lot of his damage/burst comes from his passive, which you have to be in auto range to get off.

 

[Stone Ocean]

and they should really rework tristana

Trist's level 6 spike probably needs to be looked at.

 

[zkylon]

Trist's level 6 spike probably needs to be looked at.

like i said before the only two things about tristana i'd keep would be jump resets and passive. i'd remove everything else including ap scalings

 

[Moodmon]

maybe

the same thing popped up during the support changes, people wanting there'd be a utility power stat or something

imo as it is right now they could just buff the caster adcs a bit, no need for anything huge. i really think riot dropped the ball by buffing tristana and nerfing lucy so close to the adc item changes specially since they already buffed trist/nerfed lucy by destroying bt.

and they should really rework tristana

You mention buffing the caster adcs. Do you think tweaking essence reaver would be a good idea? As it stands I cannot think of anyone it is really useful on (adc wise anyway) so perhaps adjusting the values or altering the unique on it would save having to tweak the individual adcs?

I get the feeling that might have unintended consequences for other lanes if they made it less trash mind.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

reaver wants to be a good item but the stats just arent really that great compared to something like blade of the ruined king or an infinity edge.

 

[DeadNames]

reaver wants to be a good item but the stats just arent really that great compared to something like blade of the ruined king or an infinity edge.

Yeah that's how I feel about it. Its just so expensive that when you finally get it, mana isn't much of a problem anymore.

 

[zkylon]

well making a really good cdr+ad item will just be monster on like zed and co. so no, unless those guys get nerfed for it

you really really don't want talon to become a meta pick

i'd really love if they made graves have like a riven shield on his e that maybe scaled with with his passive stacks or something. that'd be fun

 

[Kotetsu534]

I've actually had good success going BF Sword -> BF Sword on Miss Fortune lately. Often she doesn't need (much) lifesteal because she has total lane control anyway (or has Sona/Nami as support) so the 1950 gold spent on completing BT is one long gigantic power flatline, especially if you were doing well and got the BF Sword on first back. Going IE first just makes you wish you were playing Caitlyn or Tristana, since so much of its power only kicks in after you pick up a Zeal or Shiv and get sustained autos off. Once you have 100AD from the BF Swords it feels fine to go Zeal -> Shiv/PD. Obvious tradeoff is inventory space after you complete it and you're going for LW, but it can be worth it if you totally demolish the midgame - which a farmed MF is well capable of.

Spoiler

The real solution is to not play MF, I know. But how else would I win my lane hard against more skilled opponents?

 

[Sofo]

Thanks everyone on the suggestions!

I had a really weird game. Was playing Leona against a Silver Draven and our team as well as theirs had some premade I assume smurfs or friends of the 2 Silver in enemy team (I was alone). They were harrassing a bit too much and raised to levels 2/3 and 6 first, so I did what some friends told me to defend a bit and not engage if such a thing happens. Anyway, after accidentally getting a couple of kills with W or Q, both Varus and Twisted Fate start flaming (surprise, they were premade), making fun of me and such, even though one of my plays net them a good kill on Draven (R where his axe would land, W E Q) that TF got to cash in.

Then we started losing team fights, mostly due to Varus going alone towards bot (his CS was lower than Draven's). In the end, Yi, TF and Varus wanted to surrender and threatened to AFK if I didn't comply, as well as kept flaming until I accepted.

It ended with me 3/3/7 (which I think it could be a lot worse, coming from the flaming) but I think it could have gotten turned around if people would have actually put in the effort.

Next match was actually pretty enjoyable, ending in 0/3/17, and we won, with an actually very pleasant Varus ADC, and I felt confident against a Blitzcrank, one of the champs I get more anxious against.

Also, 5.2k IPs now, eager to spend 6.3k on Thresh.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

As a Talon player, I think that the new BT is going to be awesome.

Full build will probably be Hydra, Boots of Mobility, Youmuu's, Last Whisper, BT, and IE (not built necessarily in that order). Blowin' fools up.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Yeah that's how I feel about it. Its just so expensive that when you finally get it, mana isn't much of a problem anymore.

Yea.

I feel like Essence Reaver should be a really inexpensive item. Something like 1400g that gives you % mana steal from minions, damage and no lifesteal. Enough mana steal and damage for caster AD's to benefit in the 7-17-minute range of the game without screwing their early game because they didn't rush IE or BoTRK or Brutalizer or some such. Then give it some sort of expensive late-game upgrade path into something like buffed mana steal + mana steal from enemy champions + some amount of additional damage (maybe +60). Maybe even with some sort of % damage buff like:

Basic attacks steal 5% of an enemy champion's maximum mana per attack. 50% of the amount of stolen mana is added to each basic attack as physical/magic damage.

Give or take. Something like that.

That way it becomes a strategic/utility purchase to drain mana from key enemy champs. In the hypothetical example, such an upgraded item could serve as a strong counter to Manamune/Archangel's/high mana champs, while just being a nice damage bump against enemies with normal mana pools. And in prolonged fights, you could reduce the number of skills someone like Nasus can get off.

just off the top of my head.

 

[Blizzard]

Yea.

I feel like Essence Reaver should be a really inexpensive item. Something like 1400g that gives you % mana steal from minions, damage and no lifesteal. Enough mana steal and damage for caster AD's to benefit in the 7-17-minute range of the game without screwing their early game because they didn't rush IE or BoTRK or Brutalizer or some such. Then give it some sort of expensive late-game upgrade path into something like buffed mana steal + mana steal from enemy champions + some amount of additional damage (maybe +60). Maybe even with some sort of % damage buff like:

Basic attacks steal 5% of an enemy champion's maximum mana per attack. 50% of the amount of stolen mana is added to each basic attack as physical/magic damage.

Give or take. Something like that.

That way it becomes a strategic/utility purchase to drain mana from key enemy champs. In the hypothetical example, such an upgraded item could serve as a strong counter to Manamune/Archangel's/high mana champs, while just being a nice damage bump against enemies with normal mana pools. And in prolonged fights, you could reduce the number of skills someone like Nasus can get off.

just off the top of my head.

Think of the most annoying mechanic in the game -- silence, and/or fear. They prevent you from using skills.

Now imagine an enemy champion that can run you out of mana so you can't use skills. That would suck.

 

[zkylon]

hmm just read two interesting things from meddler

first they plan on adding an ap scaling to lux passive and second they're working on removing being able to deny with ori ball

i'm not a big fan of either

on lux, i think that'd be a buff that she doesn't need and that interferes with her getting some actually cool buffs that would enhance her gameplay or really help in places where she's struggling (basically a similar buff like ahri got for lux's e). like lux is perfectly fine like she is right now, it's a waste of time to buff what's already perfect about her. lux passive is also kind of a noob bait as i think even recommended items tell people to buy lich bane on her

as for ori denying with her ball, i thought that was a fun little hidden mechanic, same with zed shadow and whatnot. i'm a fan of those things that might not be intended but give a player expression nonetheless. and it has tradeoffs, it forces you to waste mana on sending your ball to a useless position and away from you, which can be taken advantage of, so it's not like it's just a totally broken mechanic or anything

carrot

riot already said they'll never implement mana drain

also i'm guessing lifesteal is there to make it less desirable for ad casters and more desirable to adcs

 

[NCR Redslayer]

Back to Dota 2 for me!

 

[drawkcaB]

Basic attacks steal 5% of an enemy champion's maximum mana per attack. 50% of the amount of stolen mana is added to each basic attack as physical/magic damage.

Riot's already gone on record several times that mana steal will never be brought back into the game. Wit's End used to do what you describe and was one of the first things to go once the whole "no anti-fun" thing really started being a core design value.

Essence Reaver needs an intermediate item that provides mana sustain and I think making it another BF item was a mistake. Something like an item that builds directly out of longsword that provides +X mana on-hit (something small, 2-3 mana).

also i'm guessing lifesteal is there to make it less desirable for ad casters and more desirable to adcs

Which is a big reason why it's a bad item on almost all (all?) ADCs - their mana costs are already balanced around the idea that they won't be picking up much in the way of mana pool/sustain. None of them are going to invest 3400g in a rush buy just to spam spells. It's pointless. Essence Reaver is mostly a solution looking for a problem. I wish Riot would put Xypherous back on champions or at least keep him away from items. Riot has introduced several new items and existing item changes since the start of S3 that are beyond niche while a large amount of currently solid items are being held back either by a lack of upgrade options (e.g. Phage, Hexdrinker, Haunting Guise, Catalyst) or awful build paths (Atma's Impaler, Frozen Mallet, Wit's End)

 

[Ferrio]

Ya a mana steal/burn item would be an instant buy on almost any attacking character.

 

[zkylon]

the forever problem with essence reaver is that there's not that much room for adcs like that. why would you pick an adc that needs his mana issues solved while there's so many of em that do about the same without need for essence reaver.

like unless it's really overpowered like old blue ezreal there's really no reason to waste money on mana regen if you can spend it on straight damage

it's not like ezreal is anivia or something, he's more than fine with trinity force

like imo unless there's a class-wide mana rework then people will just play corki or whatever and use that money on damage

 

[Einbroch]

Stealing mana is anti-fun?

Then I guess every damaging attack is anti-fun. Stealing health should be banned.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

oh well i guess its back to leaderboard grinding for hotline miami.

 

[Ferrio]

Stealing mana is anti-fun?

Then I guess every damaging attack is anti-fun. Stealing health should be banned.

Stealing mana could be seen as a permanent silence, and kills any and all counterplay other than "Don't get hit"

 

[Einbroch]

Stealing mana could be seen as a permanent silence, and kills any and all counterplay other than "Don't get hit"

I don't mean on auto attack. That would be weird. But on abilities? I don't see the issue. Don't get hit is true for all abilities.

 

[Ferrio]

I don't mean on auto attack. That would be weird. But on abilities? I don't see the issue. Same as lifesteal. Don't get hit.

Because it shuts down the ability for anyone with mana to actually fight.

 

[zkylon]

mana drain is pointless because league isn't dota

the existence of athenes and tear means that either it'll steal too little which you'll sustain in no time or it'll be too much in which case it might as well be a silence

 

[Einbroch]

Because it shuts down the ability for anyone with mana to actually fight.

Then it's a counter. Yasuo's counter are DoTs for his special bar. Rumble's counter is forcing him to use his abilities so he overheats. While I agree that mana users in general are at a disadvantage, Riot should make mana users more desirable and then add counters to make the games more dynamic.

It's just super limiting to call things anti-fun and leave it at that. Their prime example (albeit outdated and I don't know if it still applies) is Bloodseeker's ult. That's dumb, and something I fundamentally disagree with.

 

[drawkcaB]

Stealing mana is anti-fun?

Then I guess every damaging attack is anti-fun. Stealing health should be banned.

Riot's reasoning is that stealing mana reduces the available options to the player on the receiving end. Lifesteal isn't the correct comparison to make.

Imagine for a moment that Morellonomicon doesn't apply grievous wounds on spell hits, but instead applies an X second duration blind. Would it be fair for a mage to have such an item against an AA based opponent?

Then there's the issue that lots of champions in LoL aren't mana based, which is why mana steal/burn abilities would be useless as well. Any non-mana champion instantly becomes a hard counter to that hypothetical champion. That said, it would be neat to have more stat-steal abilities in the game like Trundle's Q and ultimate.

 

[Ferrio]

Then it's a counter. Yasuo's counter are DoTs for his special bar. Rumble's counter is forcing him to use his abilities so he overheats. While I agree that mana users in general are at a disadvantage, Riot should make mana users more desirable and then add counters to make the games more dynamic.

It's a counter to almost everyone. Meaning mana steal would be picked up by everyone, and it'd degrade the game quickly. As much as I think "anti-fun" is a bullshit term, I think it describes this pretty well. Mana burn/steal would add NOTHING to the game in it's current state.

 

[zkylon]

the benefit you get from having mana is more (better) item paths

 

[Einbroch]

Riot's reasoning is that stealing mana reduces the available options to the player on the receiving end. Lifesteal isn't the correct comparison to make.

Imagine for a moment that Morellonomicon doesn't apply grievous wounds on spell hits, but instead applies an X second duration blind. Would it be fair for a mage to have such an item against an AA based opponent?

Sure it would, and you know what, Riot is changing to be like that. They're adding more and more items with strange effects. Blade of the Ruined King is a direct counter to non-mobile, tanky champions. You steal movement speed and do more damage to the enemy the more health they have.

Your example is also kind of ridiculous, because that's like saying that mana steal is the same as silence, when it's not at all. Blind = all attacks miss. Mana steal =/= all magic attacks miss (aren't able to cast). Not that I think a mana stealing item is good. And I specifically was talking about an ability, not an item anyway.

It's a counter to almost everyone. Meaning mana steal would be picked up by everyone, and it'd degrade the game quickly. As much as I think "anti-fun" is a bullshit term, I think it describes this pretty well. Mana burn/steal would add NOTHING to the game in it's current state.

I'm talking about an ability. Not an auto attack. Not an item. An ability.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

im just waiting for the day they make flash an item instead of a summoner spell.

 

[dimb]

Then it's a counter. Yasuo's counter are DoTs for his special bar. Rumble's counter is forcing him to use his abilities so he overheats.

This thread is a counter to my brain.

 

[Ferrio]

I'm talking about an ability. Not an auto attack. Not an item. An ability.

Okay so you have a champ with mana/steal burn. Mana steal is a very binary ability, it either works really well or it doesn't work at all, because at the end of the day you either have mana or you don't. So we'll wind up with:

1. The mana burn/steal will be so insignificant it won't do shit.
2. It'll be over powered and the champ will be banned/picked all the time.

Either scenario is stupid.

I mean what's the compelling reason to have it in the game? Because Dota has it?