RedRedSuit
Member
Shurs said:
Same here. (Well, I didn't give up on the entire game... but I certainly gave up on finishing the story mode ever.)
Thanks for the answers. Encouraging actually.
LittleBigPlanet 2 Review thread
- Thread starter Omiee
- Start date
Same here. (Well, I didn't give up on the entire game... but I certainly gave up on finishing the story mode ever.)
Thanks for the answers. Encouraging actually.
BrLvgThrChmstry
Banned
*whoops
Those 2 kind of piss me off a little bit. LB1 was so damn easy and just when I got to a part where the difficulty felt like it was getting somewhat challenging.....the game ends. The bunker was my favorite zone/level. I feel that that's where the difficulty should have been by midgame.Shurs said:
RedRedSuit
Member
BrLvgThrChmstry said:
You're hurting me. I hope MM doesn't listen to you. (Looks like they didn't this time... thankfully.)
The Bunker was just absurd. Dying in the Wheel of Death and having to redo the rest of that level just to get back to that point, over and over again = horrible. So so horrible.
Heh, looks like you caught my slip-up. I forgot to log out of my friend's account and you caught me before the edit :/RedRedSuit said:
But LBP was soooo easy, I didnt really have any problems with any of the game until I tried to ACE and 100% each and every one of them and I only got frustrated once on the bunker (while trying to ACE it). And when I say that I think that's where the difficulty should have been mid-game, I mean that the game should have been twice as long with the mid point of the game being at the bunker...that's where I really got into the game and it ended so abruptly
That was the only real challenge I got from the game. I hate self imposed or semi self imposed difficulty/challenge. It should be challenging at it's base without me having to take that extra step to make it more challenging. There's been a few AAA games that have done it like this in this generation and I hate it.Shurs said:
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
If there's an opportunity here I'll gladly take it. Writing is about the only thing that keeps me sane in this nowhere-town.Shurs said:
Anyway I'm not too concerned about the story-mode in LBP2. Main reason I did story in the first game was for the unlockables and the fact that some of the people I played with were giving me crap about it.
RedRedSuit said:
I don't know why they didn't just go for infinite-life checkpoints for the entire game...or heck at least in multiplayer. Wheel of Death is hell by oneself but with everyone dying and the camera constantly moving back & forth to transport new people in and then game over everyone is pissed off and leaves.
Also I would have went backwards a bit and settled for up to three deaths still being considered an Ace. Some levels are just too long for that sort of playing to make sense.
RedRedSuit
Member
mr_nothin said:And when I say that I think that's where the difficulty should have been mid-game, I mean that the game should have been twice as long with the mid point of the game being at the bunker...that's where I really got into the game and it ended so abruptly
Hmm. Well, I couldn't complain about a game being longer, as long as it was still good.
Still, they should have added infinite-life checkpoints before things like the Wheel of Death.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
mr_nothin said:
Megaman games are solid as stone in terms of controls and level-design though(I ran through the first six of them again back in March, almost did MM7 but fuck that game). LPB1 still had a ways to go.
I didnt have any problems with LBP's controls though and there are other ways to introduce challenge besides having small platforms. MM games had their fair share of cheesy and "broken" mechanics ...(ex: having enemies jumping out of pits with no kind of warning). A lot of it was trial and error so you knew what not to do the next time you played the level from the beginning :lolPepsimanVsJoe said:
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
mr_nothin said:
It's not about whether or not people have problems with LPB's controls though. With the Megaman series Megaman had basically one kind of jump that worked in about the same way no matter the circumstances. LPB on the other hand physics, any amount of slope, and all kinds of other factors can come into play with every jump. So with Megaman the level-designers could pull out whatever as they didn't have to worry so much about the game being changed by some minor thing.
Yeah in the end LPB1 played it pretty safe but I guess it's just as well since by the end they've all but passed the ball to the community to make something especially challenging. Still that doesn't guarantee anything since the community level-designers still have to account for the variables that comes with Sackboy's jump so it limits what exactly they can pull off. Sure they could pull some Super Meat Boy stuff that demands perfect timing and understanding of every little detail but that sort of style just doesn't flow with what the game is actually about.
It's a tough call really but at least with this game the rules are relaxed several times over so via the community we should be seeing some especially interesting stuff(still I would have preferred that the framerate was locked at 60. It's just one of those things that I look for in a platformer)
mr_nothin said:
Still, he means there's a fucking tons more variable and factors to a physics based control than a simple baked one like Megaman or again, Mario... and it's true. Also the reason why some (not to insult) gamers that are not good at platformers or games never adapted to LBP1.
RedRedSuit
Member
Ranger X said:
Erm... I (and, I would imagine, most critics of LBP controls) find Mario platformers to be simultaneously HARDER GAMES yet EASIER TO CONTROL.
That doesn't fit your theory.
There's a difference between fighting the game and fighting the controls. When LBP is frustrating, it's generally the latter... not the former. When Mario is hard, it's the reverse.
Again, this is not to degenerate this thread into a "let's bitch about LBP controls" type of thread -- LBP has many great things about it that compensate for the controls/physics of Sackboy.
Dead Prince
Banned
i bet he played GTA before.r1chard said:
I knew exactly what he meant but it still boils down to the same thing which is understanding the game's physics....no matter how many factors there are. Also, my nephews (10 & 13) didnt have much of any problems with LBP's physics. I think newcomers are able to adapt more to the physics than the "platformer pros" because they're more used to the "normal" way of doing things.Ranger X said:
RedRedSuit said:
How does that not fit? I just said a baked control like Mario is easier to grasp that the physics based one of LBP. Mario games can be harder even if the controls is easier. There's no correlation because the difficulty isn't supposed to be the controls but the level design.
RedRedSuit
Member
Ranger X said:
You said people who aren't good at games or platformers don't adapt to LBP.
Yet, those people (e.g., me) are specifically good at games and platformers. It's a contradiction.
In reality, they don't adapt to LBP's controls not because they're not good at games or platformers, but because LBP's controls aren't good... and they expect them to be good based on the very thing that enabled them to be good at platformers and games before... tight, intuitive controls.
jump_button
Banned
*sighs* well here go my day and any free time started working on OT should be up for tomorrow
so what do you think so far need to add more or ok as is?
got more to make
so what do you think so far need to add more or ok as is?
got more to make
jump_button said:
Cool, that is really cute.
I wouldnt personally change much, but if you would change anything, you could also maybe animate little sackbots running on the spot below the official thread title (or somewhere else) to fill in the empty space, or put some stickers or stuff like that to make it more colourful.Shurs said:
I was stuck here for quite a while. Hours, if I recall correctly. It got to the point where I would constantly utter a particular random phrase during each attempt, and each time I'd get a little closer to the end. "George Clooney" is the one that got me through it. :lol
Regarding the controls:
As I've mentioned a couple of times in the original LBP thread, I've been playing through the archive of LBPCentral's fortnightly level spotlight, and one thing I've noticed is that there's quite a few levels with very hard platforming due to the controls, a problem I never actually had with MM's levels.
Often, it was a situation where the designer had gone for aesthetics over playability; one that very frequently annoyed me was a 'rope bridge' construct, which early on looked to be in a lot of levels (I guess it's one of those things the designer goes "I wonder if I can make..."). The lack of solidity of the platforms involved would cause a lot of frustrating deaths as you couldn't platform smoothly along them - who here hasn't made a leap like that and then had that instant sinking feeling as you realise the platform wasn't with you and a mighty leap ends up going barely off the ground?
I've no objection to difficulty in platformers - I've soldiered through a lot of those more irritating designs - but I didn't have much *fun* in the process, it was all a bit too cautious. I saw a few levels with descriptions saying "Don't mark it down if you're not good enough to do it!", which does rather suggest that the designer is predisposed not to consider that they may have actually made it too hard in the first place.
MM's levels were nowhere near as bad - even the oft-cited Wheel Of Death. They built their levels around their physics, understanding its limitations and allowing for them. I'm starting to see this realisation having come over the community as a whole in the spotlights at the point I'm reaching.
So, in short: The controls are adequate, but a level designer needs to keep the controls - and their intended goals and challenge levels - in mind when creating a level. It's easy to create a level that's 'too hard', or at least frustrating. In many ways it's harder to create a level that's enjoyable and a challenge without annoying the average player.
As I've mentioned a couple of times in the original LBP thread, I've been playing through the archive of LBPCentral's fortnightly level spotlight, and one thing I've noticed is that there's quite a few levels with very hard platforming due to the controls, a problem I never actually had with MM's levels.
Often, it was a situation where the designer had gone for aesthetics over playability; one that very frequently annoyed me was a 'rope bridge' construct, which early on looked to be in a lot of levels (I guess it's one of those things the designer goes "I wonder if I can make..."). The lack of solidity of the platforms involved would cause a lot of frustrating deaths as you couldn't platform smoothly along them - who here hasn't made a leap like that and then had that instant sinking feeling as you realise the platform wasn't with you and a mighty leap ends up going barely off the ground?
I've no objection to difficulty in platformers - I've soldiered through a lot of those more irritating designs - but I didn't have much *fun* in the process, it was all a bit too cautious. I saw a few levels with descriptions saying "Don't mark it down if you're not good enough to do it!", which does rather suggest that the designer is predisposed not to consider that they may have actually made it too hard in the first place.
MM's levels were nowhere near as bad - even the oft-cited Wheel Of Death. They built their levels around their physics, understanding its limitations and allowing for them. I'm starting to see this realisation having come over the community as a whole in the spotlights at the point I'm reaching.
So, in short: The controls are adequate, but a level designer needs to keep the controls - and their intended goals and challenge levels - in mind when creating a level. It's easy to create a level that's 'too hard', or at least frustrating. In many ways it's harder to create a level that's enjoyable and a challenge without annoying the average player.
RedRedSuit said:
I speak in general, I'm not necessarily speaking about you. If there's a crowd that is having a hard time adapting to physics based controls here it's because it's physics based controls. Adapting to baked physics is alot easier simply because the rules your brain needs to grasp and momentum you need to "feel" and adapt to is simpler. You totally CAN not like the controls but in my opinion they are just right. They are just right because Sackboy controls exactly like it should. Like sack material in the LBP universe. He is rules by the same same physics conditions as the rest of its world. So when you grasp the world, you grasp Sackboy and you feel EXACTLY how he will behave. If it was just the controls that were bad, it would be a majority of people not being to adapt and it would feel wrong to a strong majority wish is not the case here imo.
I even think that your own impression is wrong! :lol You have problems of adaptation and grasping the physics rules of LBP's world but you unconciously blame it on the controls.
Xenon
Member
Ranger X said:
Sure you can acclimate yourself to any controls, but that does not mean they are good. I have aced every level in the game and tend to enjoy more difficult gameplay. But, I can whole heartily say that the control is bad. You can get used to it, play around it. It doesn't change the fact that it is floaty and loose. It's a platforming game and should be compared to other games of its type. You can't just excuse it just because it runs on a physics engine. It's understandable that its not, because a tight gaming experience was not what MM was going for with LBP.
Xenon said:
I judge they are good because I can only judge controls about how much they do what I expect them do to. And in LBP, Sackboy reacts to my commands exactly as I would expect it.
It's responsive and making sense in LBP's world + good button placement = good controls.
jump_button said:*sighs* well here go my day and any free time started working on OT should be up for tomorrow
so what do you think so far need to add more or ok as is?
got more to make
If you can add the Sackboy signature smile then it would be nicer. And that sign seems a bit empy at the moment, but I don't mind. Looks good anyway.
brandonh83
Banned
Wow. That's a great banner. Maybe more detail/textures or something? At any rate, very very cool.
donkey show
Member
The official end date is today.netguy503 said:
netguy503 said:Got the CE from Amazon with release date delivery for no extra charge, I don't see what the problem is. :/ I will be there day 1 with all the extra content and will be playing online with you while mocking you.:lol
Take pictures of yourself posing with your Sackboy doll and we'll see who'll be mocking who.
Xenon
Member
Ranger X said:
From a purely mechanical standpoint, I can see what your saying. But, having stepped away from the PS3 version of the game and coming back I would have to the say the characters movement in correlation to my controller was anything but responsive. Again, once I put the time in I was able to adjust to it.
The concept of "control" in a game to me is more than just press A and character does B. There is a feel to it, a connection the player gets with whatever he or she is controlling. So I guess there is a lot of room for opinion and personal preference when judging them. I also want to add that the mushy analog stick and buttons doesn't help things on the PS3 version of the game.
If I had to just accept the mechanical definition of controls, then I would just say that it was a poor choice to use that physics model for movement of sackboy. The problem still exists its just where one wants to hang the label.
donkey show
Member
The servers should have been down by morning already.netguy503 said:
Xenon said:
Same for me. So I guess I boils down to the second part I am quoting.
As for the PS3 controller well, my hands are made of it because it's been 3 gens I am holding it so I never ever had any problems with it. My superior fingers
lol ) also never slip from the trigger-shoulders.RedRedSuit
Member
Ranger X said:
I know that. I was using myself as a fairly typical example of a person that criticized LBP controls.
This is just rationalization and apologetics. People will adapt to anything... I adapted to the controls too. They still should be tighter, as nearly every reviewer of the original LBP seemed to note. It was nearly always the #1 complaint about the game.
Controls can make perfect sense, be perfectly consistent, be artistically magnificent -- all those things... and still be bad.
Consistent =/= good.
If the controls feel good, then they're good. If they feel annoying, they're bad. No stretching and bending over backwards using "physics" and "consistency" is going to change that.
If the controls feel good, then they're good. If they feel annoying, they're bad. No stretching and bending over backwards using "physics" and "consistency" is going to change that. So yes, I blame it on the controls.
And no, "operator error" doesn't defeat this. If people that are good at games and *harder* platformers dislike LBP controls, then you can't just attribute that to "you suck at games."