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[iapetus]

Maybe he shouldn't have incited riots when riots were on?

Maybe its just me?

Maybe he shouldn't have joked about inciting riots when riots were on, you mean.

Incidentally, I look forward to your three-year sentence for inciting ABH with your avatar. You agree that's fair, right?

as soon as you point out in my post where I said you did

Please point out where anyone said they should. Or, as a reasonable alternative, admit you're using shitty straw man arguments.

 

[SmokyDave]

Where is your evidence for this?

Put me on the government payroll, give me access to the numbers and I'll gather more data than you can eat.

Maybe he shouldn't have joked about inciting riots when riots were on, you mean.

Incidentally, I look forward to your three-year sentence for inciting ABH with your avatar. You agree that's fair, right?

Come on, you're not really drawing that equivalence, surely?

If there is an epidemic of ABH in this country and I change my avatar to read 'ABH IS COOL!', I'd expect a ban. That's ignoring the difference between a Facebook Group and a GAF avatar, of course.

 

[operon]

Maybe he shouldn't have joked about inciting riots when riots were on, you mean.

Incidentally, I look forward to your three-year sentence for inciting ABH with your avatar. You agree that's fair, right?



Please point out where anyone said they should. Or, as a reasonable alternative, admit you're using shitty straw man arguments.

Where am I using any strawman arguments, now while my "lollipop" this was a way over simplfication, considering we had David Cameron and his hug a hoodie campaign I don't see I too far off.

 

[travisbickle]

No I asked people about UK Jail sentences and parole.

I was shocked at your blasé attitude towards 2 years in prison. Another Brit with no empathy.

 

[SmokyDave]

I was shocked at your blasé attitude towards 2 years in prison. Another Brit with no empathy.

You'd be surprised at the empathy-corroding effect that comes with actually living around these people rather than just imagining what they're like.

Manos isn't a Brit though.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I was shocked at your blasé attitude towards 2 years in prison. Another Brit with no empathy.

LOL

 

[travisbickle]

LOL

Another wanker with no empathy.

 

[Chinner]

some people just want to see the world burn

 

[zomgbbqftw]

You'd be surprised at the empathy-corroding effect that comes with actually living around these people rather than just imagining what they're like.

Manos isn't a Brit though.

Yup, these liberal West Hampsteady types don't really understand. Nine years on Woodberry Down Estate would give these people some perspective.

 

[SmokyDave]

Another wanker with no empathy.

Don't make it personal.

Yup, these liberal West Hampsteady types don't really understand. Nine years on Woodberry Down Estate would give these people some perspective.

Honestly. The lyrics from 'Common People' have some real resonance lately.

Is there anybody that has actually lived on an English inner-city council estate that feels that we shouldn't be so harsh on these people? If so, I'd like to know which estate, how long you lived there and why you feel this is too harsh.

I am aware that not all rioters were from council estates. I'm happy to treat the others as if they were, they evidently enjoyed acting the part.

 

[Meadows]

Yup, these liberal West Hampsteady types don't really understand. Nine years on Woodberry Down Estate would give these people some perspective.

why is every group of left-of-centre people you don't like always "_____y types"

 

[zomgbbqftw]

why is every group of left-of-centre people you don't like always "_____y types"

You know, I'm not sure... D:

 

[SmokyDave]

why is every group of left-of-centre people you don't like always "_____y types"

Because 'divorced from reality due to ideological blinkers' isn't very snappy.

So you have nothing to back it up then?

Nope. Nor can I be bothered to collate anything. You have permission to feel smug and consider yourself the 'winner'.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Put me on the government payroll, give me access to the numbers and I'll gather more data than you can eat.

So you have nothing to back it up then?

 

[travisbickle]

You'd be surprised at the empathy-corroding effect that comes with actually living around these people rather than just imagining what they're like.

Manos isn't a Brit though.

I've worked for a University department that study gang violence and youth behaviour in the UK.

I've worked for companies in the North West, where we work directly with communities that suffer from high unemployment, lack of father figures/role models, high crime rate, high suicide rates.

I've worked independently with councils in London that are in similar situations.

I've consistently been to the very communities that we are talking about.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I've worked for a University department that study gang violence and youth behaviour in the UK.

I've worked for companies in the North West, where we work directly with communities that suffer from high unemployment, lack of father figures/role models, high crime rate, high suicide rates.

I've worked independently with councils in London that are in similar situations.

I've consistently been to the very communities that we are talking about.

Have you ever lived on an estate though?

There is a difference between being an outreach worker who goes there sometimes to living there, believe me.

 

[travisbickle]

Have you ever lived on an estate though?

There is a difference between being an outreach worker who goes there sometimes to living there, believe me.

Oh, I forgot you lived on an estate till you were 9.

Yes, I grew up in a single parent family, firstly in Runcorn then in North Manchester.

That is just personal experience. With my work, I have travelled the country and taken in many different experiences from many different communities - not an outreach worker, just someone who has an interest in local communities/society and has directed my working life through many different fields but always with organisations that have a social conscience.

Basically worked as someone who tells people to give a shit about where they live.

 

[iapetus]

Come on, you're not really drawing that equivalence, surely?

Of course it's not equivalent - that's why I'm only calling for a 3-year sentence in his case.

If there is an epidemic of ABH in this country and I change my avatar to read 'ABH IS COOL!', I'd expect a ban. That's ignoring the difference between a Facebook Group and a GAF avatar, of course.

And if there's an epidemic of rioting in the country and you create a joke Facebook group about riots somewhere there aren't riots, you should expect it to be shut down with extreme prejudice.

In neither case should you expect a 4-year custodial sentence.

 

[SmokyDave]

I've worked for a University department that study gang violence and youth behaviour in the UK.....

I know this makes me a complete dick but, unless you've actually lived on a council estate (preferably attending a local state comp), I really don't care what you think of my stance on harsh punishments. It's ignorant and closed-minded of me but I just can't get past the sentiment that you 'don't get it'. I'm not proud of my bigotry in this instance so I'll politely bow out of the conversation. I think I may be too close to the subject matter (I know a couple of people that have been arrested for looting).

Edit:

Oh, I forgot you lived on an estate till you were 9.

Yes, I grew up in a single parent family, firstly in Runcorn then in North Manchester.

Why didn't you say?! I was asking for estate-dwellers to comment.

Why do you feel that we're being too harsh on these people?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Oh, I forgot you lived on an estate till you were 9.

Yes, I grew up in a single parent family, firstly in Runcorn then in North Manchester.

Fair enough. Never been to a Manc estate, but I imagine they are as bad as the one I grew up on.

 

[Bleepey]

Yup, these liberal West Hampsteady types don't really understand. Nine years on Woodberry Down Estate would give these people some perspective.

You're from Woodberry Down?

 

[travisbickle]

Local state comp too.

Manchester estates in the 90s weren't that bad, my Mum moved the family out of Runcorn because there was basically "no future there" as she put it, and that has resonated with me through my working life.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

You're from Woodberry Down?

Yup. Lived there until I was 9, then moved to Enfield when my dad got a job as an accountant. I heard it's closed down now or undergoing some kind of refurbishment.

When I was born we lived in Finsbury Park just off Stroud Green Road in the flat above my granddad's jewellery store, but then we had to move out because there were too many people living there after I was born. Since my parents had no money we had to move onto an estate and Islington estates were full at the time so we ended up in the next borough which was Hackney.

 

[Bleepey]

Yup. Lived there until I was 9, then moved to Enfield when my dad got a job as an accountant. I heard it's closed down now or undergoing some kind of refurbishment.

When I was born we lived in Finsbury Park just off Stroud Green Road in the flat above my granddad's jewellery store, but then we had to move out because there were too many people living there after I was born. Since my parents had no money we had to move onto an estate and Islington estates were full at the time so we ended up in the next borough which was Hackney.

Hmm, i am from Stamford Hill and went to school in Enfield. I wasn't going to go to any school in my borough. I live near an estate, i used to think it was a calm place, where you could raise a child and stuff. Yeah i saw kids with hoodies left right nd centre but i neevr felt unsafe. However i know a guy who was stabbed and almost died and has scars all over him, i was like damn, my little brother is not setting foot in there without me.

 

[travisbickle]

Why do you feel that we're being too harsh on these people?

because as David Cameron says it's a broken society and I don't believe you fix a broken society with excessive sentencing, just sticking everyone in prison.

 

[kitch9]

Maybe he shouldn't have joked about inciting riots when riots were on, you mean.

Incidentally, I look forward to your three-year sentence for inciting ABH with your avatar. You agree that's fair, right?



Please point out where anyone said they should. Or, as a reasonable alternative, admit you're using shitty straw man arguments.

The defendant said he was joking. Do we believe the twat posting "joke" facebook pages inciting misery and violence, or the judge?

I've no sympathy, anyways angry kitten will cut at thee!

 

[SmokyDave]

because as David Cameron says it's a broken society and I don't believe you fix a broken society with excessive sentencing, just sticking everyone in prison.

I believe that the harsh sentences are necessary right now as an indicator of change. That's the same reason I'd support re-instating the death penalty. It just says 'we don't fuck around anymore, step outside the lines and get squashed'. Some nails need to be hammered flat.

In the long term, I think we should find more, better ways of empowering people at the bottom of the ladder, no doubt. That's the long term though, once society has sent the very clear message that it's pissed off with feral kids, their idiot parents and certain idiot 'cultures'.

 

[louis89]

With these sentences, people are going to think twice about trying to arrange riots next time.

While I do think that some of them are excessive, I can't say I'm losing too much sleep over it. I'd rather have overly harsh custodial sentences than overly lenient ones.

 

[kitch9]

Fair enough. Never been to a Manc estate, but I imagine they are as bad as the one I grew up on.

They are, the one I'm working on in Liverpool makes you despair for humanity sometimes.

One young mother left a screaming baby under the scaffold when my guys were working on the externals of her council house. (Fitting and rendering a new external insulation system.)

When told the baby should be moved for its safety, she promptly told them to "Fuck off, as I'm trying to have a fag in piece and the little cunt deserves all it gets!"

We had to stop work as she refused to move it for the rest of the day.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

They are, the one I'm working on in Liverpool makes you despair for humanity sometimes.

One young mother left a screaming baby under the scaffold when my guys were working on the externals of her council house. (Fitting and rendering a new external insulation system.)

When told the baby should be moved for its safety, she promptly told them to "Fuck off, as I'm trying to have a fag in piece and the little cunt deserves all it gets!"

We had to stop work as she refused to move it for the rest of the day.

Should have called child services and had that bitch banged up and sterilised.

 

[kitch9]

Should have called child services and had that bitch banged up and sterilised.

We're on that estate for the next 8 months with numerous vans and very expensive equipment.......

You don't grass.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The old, "a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged," cliché.

You can turn that on it's head, "a liberal is a conservative who has been treated unjustly and has learned empathy."

 

[kottila]

The defendant said he was joking. Do we believe the twat posting "joke" facebook pages inciting misery and violence, or the judge?

I've no sympathy, anyways angry kitten will cut at thee!

If he really meant it, would he have deleted the page when he woke up the next day apologizing for making it?

 

[Dambrosi]

The explanation is that we have been too tolerant and too understanding for too long. We gave inch after inch as some people took mile after mile.

These sentences, although harsh, are at least a small indicator that someone out there is slowly starting to 'get it'. Switching these people over to voucher-based benefits rather than cash-based would be nice. Destroy the emerging black market in it's infancy with more harsh sentences.

For very obvious reasons, I cannot possibly agree with any of this, but I especially hate the implications and possible ramifications of the bolded (and that's me grinding my teeth to enamel dust and putting it in terms that won't get me banned for a year).

A couple of days ago, I had a short discussion with Zomg about how I believed some of the sentences being handed out by judges recently have been overly harsh, and that the punishment should fit the crime no matter what. If you want deterrent, just stick the yobs in orange dungarees and fluffy bunny ears and make them clean up their own mess in public view, that's fine. However, four years in prison for writing joke Facebook pages is just too much, even as an example to others, and is akin to a miscarriage of justice IMO. Not that it matters, since the decision will be appealed, and will probably be greatly reduced. Not that that will be widely reported, but eh.

Oh, and Cameron has shown just how much of a typical English politician he really is by publicly backing these harsh sentences. When - not if - most of those sentences are quashed or reduced on appeal in six months, how's he going to look then? It's the PM's job to lead opinion, not follow, and Cam's shown himself to be a mediocre leader...and an excellent follower.

(Not that Red Ed's any better, mind. Dude...get rid of Harman and Balls. Seriously.)

As for kitch9's chav mum, problem - just smack her upside the head* and move her on. She wouldn't grass, I can guarantee it.






*verbally, of course. God forbid I ever incite violence on the Internet, I might get four years!

 

[Novid]

I disagree and here is why. The majority of black children are being raised by black females the legacy of struggle is being passed on by their the mother. The legacy of struggle says that a black female has to be strong and independant because of things that have happened in the past. Black boys are being raised in the same situation but are being told to do what makes black females happy NO MATTER WHAT (the legacy of corny). The females are attracted to what is perceived has manhood in their environment, which would be the hyper masculine thug. What is a thug? A thug is a male that has rejected the white dominate system wholesale and replaced it with the street shit. The majority of black boys can't like rock music for the simple fact that it is not seen as "black" so says black females. Now how do we get more thugs in the black community? Simple, let the corny boys have their first interaction with a black female and he gets rejected. The corny boy will see that the black females are attracted to thugs, so the boy will want to become a thug. This is where you get the stat that says that 50% of young black boys dropout of highschool. The culture has shifted, anything that is seen as white is rejected. This is why the boys fall off, because black females do NOT find value in an on-point black male. It is simple supply and demand. Black females demand a certain kind of guy and they get the supply.

You win one internet sir.

 

[SmokyDave]

For very obvious reasons, I cannot possibly agree with any of this, but I especially hate the implications and possible ramifications of the bolded (and that's me grinding my teeth to enamel dust and putting it in terms that won't get me banned for a year).

So, you're basically bribing people because you're scared of the repercussions if you don't?

If I'm reading you wrong, please let me know why people must have their benefits in cash, rather than vouchers targetted at the areas in which they need help. Hell, get Jamie Oliver to create a recipe book on how best to use your vouchers.

There is no reason that the state should be responsible for providing the unemployed with luxuries. Cigarettes and Alcohol are luxuries.

If he really meant it, would he have deleted the page when he woke up the next day apologizing for making it?

He incited a riot during a riot. Hopefully he will figure out why that's an issue in the next four years, even if you don't seem to get it.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

So, you're basically bribing people because you're scared of the repercussions if you don't?

If I'm reading you wrong, please let me know why people must have their benefits in cash, rather than vouchers targetted at the areas in which they need help. Hell, get Jamie Oliver to create a recipe book on how best to use your vouchers.

There is no reason that the state should be responsible for providing the unemployed with luxuries. Cigarettes and Alcohol are luxuries.

Unemployment vouchers ftw. Make them unique to the person, tag them with an RFID chip and have them require ID to be used so they aren't tradeable for cash.

 

[iapetus]

For very obvious reasons, I cannot possibly agree with any of this, but I especially hate the implications and possible ramifications of the bolded (and that's me grinding my teeth to enamel dust and putting it in terms that won't get me banned for a year).

Perhaps you'd care to share why you don't like this idea? Strikes me as a pretty solid one. I find myself grinding my teeth to enamel dust when I find out, for example, how many people spent their health in pregnancy grants on cigarettes and alcohol.

The implication is that some people don't spend their benefits on those things that the benefits are intended for. For those people who do, it won't make a difference. For those who don't, I don't give a toss how they feel about it.

He incited a riot during a riot.

Only, of course, he didn't, as demonstrated by the total lack of riot.

 

[Dambrosi]

So, you're basically bribing people because you're scared of the repercussions if you don't?

If I'm reading you wrong, please let me know why people must have their benefits in cash, rather than vouchers targetted at the areas in which they need help. Hell, get Jamie Oliver to create a recipe book on how best to use your vouchers.

There is no reason that the state should be responsible for providing the unemployed with luxuries. Cigarettes and Alcohol are luxuries.

So, you're OK with provoking more (and probably worse) riots and looting by taking away these people's freedom to buy what they want with their* money? Fine by me, but you're cleaning up the mess afterwards.

Not to mention that I'm currently on unemployment benefits, and I wouldn't appreciate** my only source of liquidity being replaced by food stamps and nothing else. How am I supposed to contribute to my debt repayments then? Having very little money already segregates me from the rest of society enough, but having no money at all would divorce me from society altogether - and if that happens, what's stopping me from turning to crime to make ends meet?

Leave it out, Dave. Not even the USA's welfare system is that harsh - and for good reason. Public order isn't kept with sticks alone, you have to offer some form of carrot. I hope that you have enough intelligence, foresight and empathy to understand this, the simplest of social concepts.

*Yes, I know, but it's theirs as soon as they receive it, as long as they don't commit fraud to get it. Fair enough?
**To put it in a way that won't get me banned for two years.

He incited a riot during a riot. Hopefully he will figure out why that's an issue in the next four years, even if you don't seem to get it.

Actually - no, never mind, you're a nutjob and you just don't want to understand.

 

[iapetus]

How am I supposed to contribute to my debt repayments then?

Any sane and workable system would have to allow for this sort of thing, and have some flexibility built in. And making it a 100% living essentials set-up would be over the top, obviously. But moving some of the payment in that direction wouldn't be a bad idea, surely?

 

[SmokyDave]

Only, of course, he didn't, as demonstrated by the total lack of riot.

Does that matter to the courts? I honestly don't know. I doubt you need people to act in order for an incitement charge though.

So, you're OK with provoking more (and probably worse) riots and looting by taking away these people's freedom to buy what they want with their* money? Fine by me, but you're cleaning up the mess afterwards.

My pleasure. All rioters shot on sight.

Not to mention that I'm currently on unemployment benefits, and I wouldn't appreciate** my only source of liquidity being replaced by food stamps and nothing else. How am I supposed to contribute to my debt repayments then? Having very little money already segregates me from the rest of society enough, but having no money at all would divorce me from society altogether - and if that happens, what's stopping me from turning to crime to make ends meet?

Your debt can be placed on hiatus. If you feel divorced from society, you're probably alive and human. I feel divorced too. If you turn to crime to make money, you will be dealt with appropriately. May I ask if you're seeking employment? Have you looked into government schemes to get back into work?

Leave it out, Dave. Not even the USA's welfare system is that harsh - and for good reason. Public order isn't kept with sticks alone, you have to offer some form of carrot. I hope that you have enough intelligence, foresight and empathy to understand this, the simplest of social concepts.

Carrots are effective for some but sticks are more effective on others. An ideal system features both.

*Yes, I know, but it's theirs as soon as they receive it, as long as they don't commit fraud to get it. Fair enough?
**To put it in a way that won't get me banned for two years.

It isn't 'their' money in any way whatsoever. It's on loan from a central kitty that cannot function if people do not contribute.

Actually - no, never mind, you're a nutjob and you just don't want to understand.

You can call me whatever you like. I'm firm in my convictions and I believe that we will have no choice but to move in my direction.

Here's one to boil your blood: I believe that the current benefits system is responsible for a rise in child abuse. I haven't even tried to back that one up yet though.

 

[iapetus]

My pleasure. All rioters shot on sight.

Fine with me, on the proviso that as soon as a single innocent person is shot as a result of this policy, you're executed for murder.

 

[SmokyDave]

Fine with me, on the proviso that as soon as a single innocent person is shot as a result of this policy, you're executed for murder.

If I can take ten rioters out before I make a mistake, I'm OK with this. I'm pretty sure I could pick ten thousand off without troubling an innocent soul.

Let's do this.

Edit: I get to pick the definition of 'innocent', right?

 

[Sneds]

Does that matter to the courts? I honestly don't know. I doubt you need people to act in order for an incitement charge though.

Like the difference between murder and attempted murder maybe.

Also, you look like Kevin Davies in your profile picture.

 

[iapetus]

Edit: I get to pick the definition of 'innocent', right?

No, because that's not how it works. The tabloid press gets to pick it, after the event.

 

[Joel Was Right]

 

[SmokyDave]

Like the difference between murder and attempted murder maybe.

Also, you look like Kevin Davies in your profile picture.

Straight up, no idea. I've never heard of 'Attempted Incitement' though. Never heard of Kevin Davies but I bet he's a handsome fellow. Trustworthy too, no doubt.

No, because that's not how it works. The tabloid press gets to pick it, after the event.

Then I'm totally up for it

 

[Sneds]

Never heard of Kevin Davies but I bet he's a handsome fellow. Trustworthy too, no doubt.

I'm shocked and appalled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Davies

And yes - he is all of the above.

 

[Raydeen]

If you really want to hate the feral young of England, read up on the Sophie Lancaster murder.

That was a terrible one, a bullet should have been put through the heads of the little scum, I wouldn't have shed a tear.

 

[Joel Was Right]

That was a terrible one, a bullet should have been put through the heads of the little scum, I wouldn't have shed a tear.

I have similar sentiments for school bullies, although dare I say it I find the use of a bullet to be too humane in this regard.

Has anyone ever come across the children's book Horrible Histories?