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[Zzoram]

Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers (those who survive the water of life) gain access to the genetic memory of their entire female lineage. The Kwisatz Haderach is special because he can see BOTH the female and male genetic memory of his lineage, AND see infinitely into the future. That's how he knew about the Baron being Jessica's father. Spacing Guild Navigators are men who underwent a spice transformation and can see a limited version of the future, but cannot see genetic lineage. The Navigators can navigate hyperspace because of their ability see see briefly into the future, it allows them to see what the safest path through hyperspace is because they can see which paths would destroy them and which wouldn't.

The reason Alia was called Abomination upon her birth is because Jessica was pregnant with her when she underwent the water of life transformation. This meant that Alia also became a Reverend Mother, but she did so before she developed a strong personality of her own. Having the memories of her entire genetic lineage arise before she developed her own character meant that she would have no sense of self, resulting in her adopting characteristics of her many ancestors instead.

You're supposed to get all of this out of Book 1 (Dune), but it's easy to miss on your first reading.

 

[Sotha Sil]

i still love the lynch movie.

Me too. And I'm a diehard fan of the book. I just love it.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers (those who survive the water of life) gain access to the genetic memory of their entire female lineage. The Kwisatz Haderach is special because he can see BOTH the female and male genetic memory of his lineage, AND see infinitely into the future. That's how he knew about the Baron being Jessica's father. Spacing Guild Navigators are men who underwent a spice transformation and can see a limited version of the future, but cannot see genetic lineage. The Navigators can navigate hyperspace because of their ability see see briefly into the future, it allows them to see what the safest path through hyperspace is because they can see which paths would destroy them and which wouldn't.

The reason Alia was called Abomination upon her birth is because Jessica was pregnant with her when she underwent the water of life transformation. This meant that Alia also became a Reverend Mother, but she did so before she developed a strong personality of her own. Having the memories of her entire genetic lineage arise before she developed her own character meant that she would have no sense of self, resulting in her adopting characteristics of her many ancestors instead.

You're supposed to get all of this out of Book 1 (Dune), but it's easy to miss on your first reading.

Yeah, I understood most of that while reading, except for the genetic memory of lineage part. And also Alia's lack of self, which is very interesting.

I must say though, for a book as serious as Dune, I lol'd heartily at the Baron's reaction to Alia toward the end:

Is it a midget?

That scene between Alia, the Baron, the Emperor, and the Bene Gesserit was so awesome. After only a couple pages Alia became one of my favorite characters.

 

[sarcoa]

Considerable spoilers, I'd only glance at this if you've read all of the original six and as much as you could tolerate of Brian's work, but I got a laugh:

The Progressions of Dune novels as told by internet troll faces

I did sort of enjoy the Butlerian Jihad trilogy, though.

 

[Zzoram]

Dune taught me to never trust old people who seem way too in to gardening.

Edit: For reals, the first book is fantastic, everything that follows gets more and more nonsensical. For a universe as vast as Dune's is, there's so much world-building that could not happen due to space constraints such that new and different factions pop in at every book leaving the reader thinking: "Who the fuck are these guys?"

Spoiler regarding a faction that comes in later

Spoiler

I never really figured out what the hell was up with the Bene Tleilax, and it's been so long that I've forgotten what I once knew regarding them. That bothers me, so if anyone can sum them up I'd appreciate it.

This is so hilariously inaccurate I can't put it in to words.

I'll summaraize them

Spoiler

The Bene Tleilaxu were genetic manipulators. Their clan began as scientists cloning organs for tissue replacement. They eventually started cloning people (gholas) who had no memory of their past lives, and then discovered how to unlock those past memories in Book 2 (Dune Messiah). They also created Facedancers, people who could shapeshift. The secret to their genetic technology was that they modified their females into organic breeding tanks, which is why you never see a female Tleilaxu. In Book 5 and 6 (the last of Frank Herbert's books), it is discovered that the Tleilaxu that spread out across the universe in the Scattering eventually lost control of their females. Some of them joined the Bene Gesserit that left during the Scattering, and together they formed the Honored Matres, with the scheming and fighting skill of the Bene Gesserit but the rage from millenia of enslavement as organic breeding tanks of the Bene Tleilaxu women. It is then also revealed that the Tleilaxu Masters, once they unlocked the secret of reviving ghola memories, would always clone themselves upon death and then unlock their ghola's memories to essentially live forever, which was probably their ultimate goal from the beginning. However, when the Honored Matres returned to Empire space, they wiped out the Bene Tleilaxu in revenge.

 

[Rei_Toei]

Cool, recently discovered The Dune Mix by Mike G, it's a collection of Dune-related music - some stuff from the movie, some other stuff mixed in, and some dialogue. Really ambient, great to listen though while reading Dune, really .

I really wish Dune would get another shot as a movie. The first attempt was nice and all but took to many liberties with the source material. Also, Dune could look actually great (same with the worms) with todays CG.

 

[flyover]

Me too. And I'm a diehard fan of the book. I just love it.

Yeah, I can't help but love the movie, too. And the soundtrack is amazing. I can't believe it's by Toto, of all bands. I guess Wang Chung wasn't available.

I haven't read any of the Brian Herbert books -- and I don't think I want to; I don't want them to affect what I think of the characters, what happened, and what will happen. But I love all of the Frank Herbert ones. When I was a kid, I stopped after God Emperor. I think I was just too young to get it. I recently re-read all of the books, and now I love the last three.

 

[Zzoram]

Yeah, I understood most of that while reading, except for the genetic memory of lineage part. And also Alia's lack of self, which is very interesting.

I must say though, for a book as serious as Dune, I lol'd heartily at the Baron's reaction to Alia toward the end:

Is it a midget?

That scene between Alia, the Baron, the Emperor, and the Bene Gesserit was so awesome. After only a couple pages Alia became one of my favorite characters.

Alia is a very prominent character in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.

I strongly recommend you read all of Frank Herbert's original 6 Dune books.

Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse: Dune

You have to at least read the first 4 books. By the end of God Emperor of Dune you at least understand the main point that Frank Herbert is trying to make. Books 5-6 are more action oriented but I enjoyed them. The reason that some people have trouble with Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune is because they don't deal with the characters in the first 3 books but their descendents some years later.

Brian Herbert, Frank's son, wrote the prequels (The Butlerian Jihad/Machine Crusade/Battle of Corrin have the most relevance to the main series), and Book 7-8 (which continue right where Book 6 left off), which are more in the style of Books 5-6 as they are action oriented. They're not as good as the originals, but they're not as bad as people often claim.

 

[Zzoram]

Yeah, I can't help but love the movie, too. And the soundtrack is amazing. I can't believe it's by Toto, of all bands. I guess Wang Chung wasn't available.

I haven't read any of the Brian Herbert books -- and I don't think I want to; I don't want them to affect what I think of the characters, what happened, and what will happen. But I love all of the Frank Herbert ones. When I was a kid, I stopped after God Emperor. I think I was just too young to get it. I recently re-read all of the books, and now I love the last three.

God Emperor of Dune was his most important book, it's the one that made the main point he was building towards from the start, the Golden Path.

The main prequels (The Butlerian Jihad/Machine Crusade/Battle of Corrin) and the books that come after are basically playing out the reason the Golden Path is necessary.

 

[3rdman]

There are a lot of similarities between the two.

There is more in common with "Dances with Wolves" to "Avatar" than "Dune" is.

 

[3rdman]

Me too. And I'm a diehard fan of the book. I just love it.

As a Lynch fan, I think there is a lot to love about the movie...In particular, the superb art direction and casting. As I read the book, it was impossible not envisioning the characters and location as Lynch created them. One of the biggest critiques was the use of inner dialogue but it was (IMHO) the best way to convey the gist/style that the original novel had.

Sadly, the film does falter during the second half but it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be...Dune is just a damn hard story to tell.

 

[flyover]

God Emperor of Dune was his most important book, it's the one that made the main point he was building towards from the start, the Golden Path.

Yup. I didn't get that when I was a kid. Now, it's between that and the original for my favorite of the series. (And I think I may lean toward God Emperor...)

 

[Rei_Toei]

It's funny, when you mentioned Jodorowski in the movies thread a while back I started thinking about that planned version. It always occurred to me that he would probably be the only director capable of coming up with something stranger and less coherent than David Lynch, even studio-hamstrung Lynch. Heh.


The cut-out worms look pretty bad at times, sure, but the use of actual sets/costumes/props is a big part of why the Lynch movie is so visually enticing.

Oh, didn't want to imply it's all rubbish. There's a lot of fantastic design in there. I really liked how they styled the navigators, as well as the shields. But Dune being my all-time favourite sci-fi story, I would not mind it being retold on the silverscreen some more

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

Cool, recently discovered The Dune Mix by Mike G, it's a collection of Dune-related music - some stuff from the movie, some other stuff mixed in, and some dialogue. Really ambient, great to listen though while reading Dune, really .

I really wish Dune would get another shot as a movie. The first attempt was nice and all but took to many liberties with the source material. Also, Dune could look actually great (same with the worms) with todays CG.

I'm pretty sure there is a new Dune movie set to release in 2014. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ZephyrFate]

:lol

Like the books make any sense after God Emperor. At least it had a real connection with the the first book.

Better to end on that then reading 1000 pages about

Spoiler

space whores and Duncan's magic penis.

Except those tie back into the ultimate concept of the Golden Path itself.

Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse have an even stronger connection to the first book than God Emperor does. I'm sorry you missed the point/it went over your head.

 

[Danne-Danger]

It's funny, when you mentioned Jodorowski in the movies thread a while back I started thinking about that planned version. It always occurred to me that he would probably be the only director capable of coming up with something stranger and less coherent than David Lynch, even studio-hamstrung Lynch. Heh.

Oh yeah! I totally forgot that he was up for the project there for a while. Wasn't Ridley Scott in the hat as well? But then he did Blade Runner instead?

Those two would probably be in my "top 3 amazing movies I'll never get to see"-list, along with the 6h version of The Thin Red Line. Oh the things I would do!

 

[An-Det]

I chose to read Dune for one of my AP english courses in High School, and it was a wonderful decision. I loved the book, and immediately set out to read the remaining 5 (this was before B Herbert wrote the 7 and 8). Fantastic series, I loved the progression of things and the intrigue.

I have seen Lynch's Dune film, but I easily prefer the Sci-Fi miniseries which was much closer to the books. It was a little off at times, but it was fucking awesome to see the first three books on screen like that.

 

[Zzoram]

Ya the Sci-Fi miniseries were the most accurate depictions of the first 3 books so far. It also launched James McAvoy's career.

 

[totowhoa]

Ya the Sci-Fi miniseries were the most accurate depictions of the first 3 books so far. It also launched James McAvoy's career.

They were great, but I cannot imagine watching them without having read the books first. I'm kind of interested in hearing opinions of any GAFfers who saw the miniseries first. I mean they followed the book scene for scene but just had to cut a bunch of things out of course. So a lot of explanatory portions are gone, which I have to imagine makes some scenes in the series seem a little insane and nonsensical.

As a huge fan of the books, though... I loved the series.

 

[Fusion Pizza]

are there any decent audio books of the dune series? I have a 8-10 hour drive ahead of me tommorow

 

[PhoncipleBone]

They were great, but I cannot imagine watching them without having read the books first. I'm kind of interested in hearing opinions of any GAFfers who saw the miniseries first. I mean they followed the book scene for scene but just had to cut a bunch of things out of course. So a lot of explanatory portions are gone, which I have to imagine makes some scenes in the series seem a little insane and nonsensical.

As a huge fan of the books, though... I loved the series.

I saw the mini series first, then read the books about 5 years later. The movie made sense, but it was a lot better after having read the book.

 

[Stinkles]

I finished the book a few weeks ago, and almost made a LTTP thread.

I loved it, for the most part. The geopolitical depth was staggering and his mastery of layered dialog was among the very best I've ever read. Plans within plans, meaning within the smallest phrasing shifts. Much of it was a pleasure to read, and the world he created has a stunning level of depth to it.

I had two over-arching issues with it.

First, I didn't like how often critical events were reported, rather than seen. I got the impression this was quite deliberate, showing how the ruling elites are isolated from the impacts of their actions. But way too many things are just casually reported rather than seen. Often it came across as Herbert building up to events, but he wasn't really interested in the outcome.

The last section of the book goes way the hell too fast. In the last third or so, Herbert spends 150 pages with

Spoiler

Paul and his mother wandering through the desert and joining a group of the freemen, and then proceeds to skip all the interesting things that happen after. Paul's training and his instruction on the weirding way to the people? Skipped. The death of his son? Reported offhand and barely registers then. What on earth was up with his sister? This flawlessly executed ambush and invasion of the Harkonens and the Emperor feels like it was given the briefest, least amount of detail possible so he could get it over with.

It just felt like Herbert was in this huge rush to get the book over with. I felt like 150 pages has been edited out of the ending of the book, and that 150 pages had most of the payoff.

I am so glad you finally read this. It's what got me into sci fi when I was a kid. Also, let me blow your mind a bit. Consider Osama Bin Laden as Paul taking the wrong branch of the Golden Path and the symmetry is shocking. Almost prescient. Think about the poltics, economy, jihad, the whole thing. It is fucked up.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I am so glad you finally read this. It's what got me into sci fi when I was a kid. Also, let me blow your mind a bbit. Consider Osama Bin Laden as Paul taking the wrong branch of the Golden Path and the symmetry is shocking. Almost prescient. Think about the poltocs, economy, jihad, the whole thing. It is fucked up.

A lot of the ideas that Herbert puts forth in the Dune series have a shockingly relevant connection to things that go on today. It's startling.

 

[Zzoram]

Herbert's ideas will only get more relevent as time passes, as The Golden Path requires us to develop interstellar travel.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Herbert's ideas will only get more relevent as time passes, as The Golden Path requires us to develop interstellar travel.

I cannot imagine

Spoiler

The Scattering

happening in our history. It would be so insane.

 

[Zzoram]

I cannot imagine

Spoiler

The Scattering

happening in our history. It would be so insane.

Not in our life times, but Herbert isn't the only one that believes it needs to happen eventually for humanity to endure the test of time. Many physicists believe the same thing.

 

[Kola]

Yup. I didn't get that when I was a kid. Now, it's between that and the original for my favorite of the series. (And I think I may lean toward God Emperor...)

Yep, me too. At first I was a bit depressed noticing that the story of God Emperor is so far in the future. But it is so well-made, the dialogues are so great and Herbert really establishes the point of the whole series.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Not in our life times, but Herbert isn't the only one that believes it needs to happen eventually for humanity to endure the test of time. Many physicists believe the same thing.

Ahhhh god this is just so insane! Is Frank Herbert a prophet?!

 

[Zzoram]

Ahhhh god this is just so insane! Is Frank Herbert a prophet?!

He just thought ahead more than a few years. Most people think only in small time scale terms, a few years ahead at most. That's why people, governments, and businesses can never seem to make effective long term plans.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

C'mon guys, there's a huge quality drop-off past the first book.

They aren't bad novels but they don't reach the heights of the original.

 

[ZephyrFate]

C'mon guys, there's a huge quality drop-off past the first book.

They aren't bad novels but they don't reach the heights of the original.

This is very, very wrong.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I am so glad you finally read this. It's what got me into sci fi when I was a kid. Also, let me blow your mind a bit. Consider Osama Bin Laden as Paul taking the wrong branch of the Golden Path and the symmetry is shocking. Almost prescient. Think about the poltics, economy, jihad, the whole thing. It is fucked up.

It was actually you that got me to read it, and for that I'm glad. I hadn't considered the parallels, but they are interesting. I'm going to go read up a bit more on OBL's life to see how deep they go.

 

[Pisuke1983]

I read the book in school. Its been 14 years now but i still remember the story. One of my favorite SciFi books.

 

[akira28]

Originally Posted by Zzoram:
Not in our life times, but Herbert isn't the only one that believes it needs to happen eventually for humanity to endure the test of time. Many physicists believe the same thing.

Ahhhh god this is just so insane! Is Frank Herbert a prophet?!

What if...this scattering already happened? And our ancient robotic enemies have tracked us down to our final home?

(I think I read in some article, when Herbert was getting the inspiration for Dune, flying over some massive land management project, a mass of land that was lost to sand creep or something that was being reclaimed. And he was thinking about how the future and the path of human life was transient like those dunes, and also the petroleum/energy industry was one of the concepts playing on his mind. Not exactly related, but it wouldn't be too far a stretch to say the whole freedom fighter savior thing could go back to Lawrence of Arabia even.)

Alia the Knife was my favorite. I was so disappointed with the story arc, I thought she was way cooler than Duncan Wolverine.

 

[RyanDG]

C'mon guys, there's a huge quality drop-off past the first book.

They aren't bad novels but they don't reach the heights of the original.

I guess it depends on what you wanted out of the Dune series. Personally, the first book is a lot more self contained in ways than the other novels, however it is the ties that bring the entire series together that makes the series as a whole a lot better than the sum of its parts. I don't think there's a huge drop off in quality - but rather a change in the 'purpose' of the books that seems to click with some people (I'm one of them) while not in others.

 

[Dresden]

The coolest part of Dune is the appendix where it talks about the Butlerian Jihad and stuff.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I guess it depends on what you wanted out of the Dune series. Personally, the first book is a lot more self contained in ways than the other novels, however it is the ties that bring the entire series together that makes the series as a whole a lot better than the sum of its parts. I don't think there's a huge drop off in quality - but rather a change in the 'purpose' of the books that seems to click with some people (I'm one of them) while not in others.

I think the Golden Path alone transcends so much of what occurs in Dune both thematically and quality-wise that it makes the rest of the series so much more worth it.