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Mark Cerny: When making consoles, we're not trying to build low-cost PCs
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
- Start date
- Opinion Game Dev Hardware
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Does anyone know if these AI co-processors can do ai upscaling(dlss/xess) and how much TOPS that will require?
Searching the web has yielded poor results.
Searching the web has yielded poor results.
PaintTinJr
Member
Agreed, and it is very easy to say that after everyone else can sit back and copy and get something sort of the same idea within 9-12months.
Only the other day I was watching the Gamer Nexus video on Intel's new hardware and he was describing GPU improvements that sounded like an inferior copy of feature flexibility from PS5's fully custom Geometry Engine. And that's for discrete Xe2 PC GPUs that haven't even been given a release date AFAIK.
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PaintTinJr
Member
I seriously doubt they do with the 3min load time I experienced with Elden Ring on my nephew's PC with a Samsung 980 pro/Core-i7 10600K/32GB RAM/RTX 2060 Super at the weekend,
The game isn't a great example of quick loading even on PS5 taking 10secs, but the PS5 IO complex that PC doesn't have makes far more difference than the faster rate of those drives compared to the PS5 SSD in those situations
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Lol, only someone who hasn't played SM2 would say such a thing. Ratchet is child's play in comparison.
Kumomeme
Member
from what i understand what he mean by not trying to create low end pc is, lot of people misunderstand see the console as another pc. hardware wise at glance yes but when they develop it they put as much newer tech available within the console cost range. people get confused because current console share similliar hardware with pc. but they never see it as a budget pc. they see it as a completely own hardware in their own league. if it just simply a low end pc they would just put pc part left and right and didnt put anything else. the Linus example is relate to this.
atleast this is what i understand after reading the article. he explained more after the lines.
atleast this is what i understand after reading the article. he explained more after the lines.
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thismeinteil
Member
Zathalus
Member
I have played SM2, forgot about the portal scene as it's basically the most impressive loading part of the game. So instead of one whole game, we have two whole games (from the same studio no less) that demonstrate impressive SSD usage, so not exactly changing the point I was making.
Melchiah
Member
Cerny says building a console takes about four years, and nowadays that's less time than it takes to make some of the big AAA titles.
He also said...
If everyone wasn't making massive open world games things would be much different, and more sustainable. As an avid hater of the genre, I find it satisfying to see the negative effects of the fad.
Shake Your Rump
Member
If you bought a 3090 back in 2020, you must have dipped into your line of credit. I was looking at 3060ti at the time and it was almost $2000 CAD. I ended up just buying a 3060 laptop instead.My 11900k 3090 computer say no… still playing game at better framerate and setting then PS5
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Seider
Member
Ps2 didnt include anything like NVMe SSD on Ps5 that (and ill use Cerny words) put pressure on the PC world to get their corresponding DirectStorage API into the hands of their gamers.
Zathalus
Member
I'm just saying modern consoles use much more equivalent hardware to what you would find on a PC as compared to the PS2 where the differences between a PC and the console were much more pronounced.
OverHeat
« generous god »
Got it at MSRP at launch
I think an rtx 2060 has about 80 tops and a 4090 has like 1300 tops, they both run dlss. The 2060 has about a 2.6ms cost while the 4090 cost is about 1.6ms. So there is no real metric for saying AI upscaling needs X amount of tops, it's going to be how quickly the model can be executed and you could probably reduce the complexity of the model to make it run on less performant AI hardware at the cost of quality. I would expect even lighter models designed for lower performant hardware to be better than fsr though.
I'm not sure what to expect for things with the AI hardware in the cpu instead of the gpu, because someone posted a thread here the other day about microsoft new AI upscaling using the new npu hardware and ms said it has a frame of latency. While would be 33ms at 30hz or 16ms at 60hz. Will have to see when we get benchmarks and image quality comparisons but I'm thinking 45 tops should be able to do reconstruction ok. If we start seeing AI used in other things nvidia has been showing like physics/volumetrics and nueral texture compression then we might actually need the extra extra horsepower.
Nvidia criticizes AI PCs, says Microsoft's 45 TOPS requirement is only good enough for 'basic' AI tasks
Nvidia says its GPUs provide substantially better AI-performance than today's bleeding edge NPUs.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Phones have an entirely separate problem. No phone can be used at max power because cooling is non-existent. This was most evident when they tried to run VR and basically overheat straight away.
So the power of a phone's hardware is basically nerfed permanently as you can't physically run it at max without the whole thing exploding.
Zathalus
Member
Then something is wrong with your nephews PC. Elden Ring on PC loads roughly in 5-6 seconds depending on where you are. Both fast travel and from the menu. It doesn't even require a fast CPU to do so, you can do that on a quad core Zen 2.
Guilty_AI
Member
I played ER on a PC with lower specs than any of these on a HDD and mine didn't take 3 min, not even the initial loading. 30 seconds at most usually. You should try doing a health checkup on his PC, make sure it isn't plagued with 17 different malwares he got navigating strange websites.
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Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Thanks for the reply, I ended up asking chatgpt, it said the 2060 has 52 TOPS and that the TOPS needed for dlss/xess-type upscaling is between 50-100.I think an rtx 2060 has about 80 tops and a 4090 has like 1300 tops, they both run dlss. The 2060 has about a 2.6ms cost while the 4090 cost is about 1.6ms. So there is no real metric for saying AI upscaling needs X amount of tops, it's going to be how quickly the model can be executed and you could probably reduce the complexity of the model to make it run on less performant AI hardware at the cost of quality. I would expect even lighter models designed for lower performant hardware to be better than fsr though.
I'm not sure what to expect for things with the AI hardware in the cpu instead of the gpu, because someone posted a thread here the other day about microsoft new AI upscaling using the new npu hardware and ms said it has a frame of latency. While would be 33ms at 30hz or 16ms at 60hz. Will have to see when we get benchmarks and image quality comparisons but I'm thinking 45 tops should be able to do reconstruction ok. If we start seeing AI used in other things nvidia has been showing like physics/volumetrics and nueral texture compression then we might actually need the extra extra horsepower.
Nvidia criticizes AI PCs, says Microsoft's 45 TOPS requirement is only good enough for 'basic' AI tasks
Nvidia says its GPUs provide substantially better AI-performance than today's bleeding edge NPUs.www.tomshardware.com
Also the RTX 2060 can run the latest DLSS 3.7.1, so in all likelihood the TOPS requirement for AI up scaling is going to be extremely easy to achieve in future console hardware when a simple XDNA2 AI processor by AMD that is available from next month with be capable of 50 TOPS by itself, and by the time the PS6 is ready the AI processors should be 1-2 gens further along.
This obviously isn't taking into account the software development required.
Self_Destructive
Member
That's not as impressive as you think. You're not even flying low to the streets where all the high detail texture MIPS load in for like 95% of that video. You're not moving any faster that you do in any other games which stream in. And that's the point of distinction. In Spider-Man 2, it's relatively slowly streaming in assets as you move through the world. In Ratchet and Clank, the most impressive parts, are when it changes the environment up multiple times within a short period of time. Even then, Ratchet for the most part isn't doing anything crazy. It tops out at ~2GB/s iirc when I tested it.
Don't get me wrong, how quickly Spider-Man 2 loads from a save file.. is definitely impressive. But the streaming requirements of Spider-Man 2 on PS5 aren't on some other level than Ratchet. They both use a tiny fraction of the available bandwidth while streaming the game world in during gameplay.
Kerotan
Member
It will be the exact same.
nial
Member
Hulst can't and isn't going to tell him what to do, that's Nishino.
Not only that. They are also using a fraction of the capabilities of the coprocessors dedicated to decompression, coherency, mapping, file I/O, load management and check-in. Which ultimately affect memory management, the use of the capabilities of the GPU and CPU, and that in the end represents a limitation to what developers could do.
Due to the new multiplatform development policy, Sony first party devs cannot take full advantage of all the Ps5 capabilities. I have said it multiple times and now Mark Cerny confirms it.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Wasnt the PS5pro rumored to do 300 TOPS?
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Wrong. All of these false claims without anything to back up. No game has a better streaming system during gameplay than SM2.
AncientOrigin
Member
It’s not exactly a PC most things are custom made you can’t get that on PC.And PlayStation has often stuff which comes later on AMD cards or the SSD this time you pc gamers should be thankful because everything PlayStation does is rising your standards
Matrix Awakens demo still has a similar speed when flying and by Epic own words they only need around 300MB/s to do that. So no, Insomniac is not using a streaming system that takes advantage of what Ps5 offers. Not a single developer is doing it.
What insomniac is doing is creating preset loading lists to eliminate loading screens, which makes the system's speed much better utilized. Now on SM2 they put a lot invisible fast travel points on the map that have this preset loading list, so when the player choose a point on the map to do the fast travel the system search the nearest invisible point, moves to that position and then do the load while they make the animation of falling in the map.
solidus12
Member
Aren’t Linus or Alex from DF more tech savvy than Mark?
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Guilty_AI
Member
At least he has extra time now to update his drivers and keep fiddling with his PC he doesn't like playing in.
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Zathalus
Member
Where did you find the information about the preset loading lists? From the debug menu they accidentally released?
midnightAI
Member
That two timing.....
He told me the PS6 was hydro powered and that it's designed to be played in the bathtub
From an interview. I don't remember if it was for R&C or SM2. But they said that the console SSD is so fast that their engine can't keep up, so they need to set certains things manually to load more quickly.
I know that some insomniac developers come here often so maybe they can give more information on how they do it.
Imtjnotu
Member
Neither of those schmucks could design and engineer hardware
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Ok sure. Build a PS5 specced PC in 2020 for $399 if thats the case. Or hell, build a PS5-specced PC for $399 today and let's see what you end up with.
Negotiator
Member
Cerny is a glimmer of hope in the current state of affairs.
He knows how to make good and approachable hardware, but whether software will follow or not that's another discussion.
He knows how to make good and approachable hardware, but whether software will follow or not that's another discussion.
PaintTinJr
Member
He was merely switching from one class build save file - that was complete - to another and it took that long. After he died it took 15-20 on the first respawn, and 10 or so in respawns after that, so could be the save file cache was old needing regenerated or the drive section untrimmed, maybe even recompiling shaders - even though he hasn't updated drivers recently - but either way, the PS5 won't ever have a 3min loading on Elden Ring because of the IO complex and single SKU precompiled shaders, for something that should take 10secs.
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
That's a far cry from you claiming they aren't using the PS5 streaming tech. The devs are having trouble with their engine keeping up with the hardware. This is a good thing as it is typically the other way around.
Negotiator
Member
You can also call Homo Sapiens a chimp with one or two extras of special sauce DNA:
How can chimps share 98 per cent of our DNA and be so different?
With DNA, that two per cent difference is actually pretty high, especially considering how similar we actually are to our primate cousins.
www.sciencefocus.com
We're not the same species, but we definitely belong in the same family (primates). 2% of DNA difference is enough to differentiate us.
Modern PCs still don't have a dedicated audio coprocessor and they generally compensate it with more CPU cores (they used to have a custom audio DSP in the EAX/A3D era, too bad most of RGB PCMR didn't have a PC back then to experience immersive/quality audio) and a dedicated asset decompressor (nVidia uses GPU ALUs to decompress data for DirectStorage).
These facts are true for both PS4 and PS5.
Zathalus
Member
Alright, so basically a PC with dedicated audio and I/O block. Exactly as I said.You can also call Homo Sapiens a chimp with one or two extras of special sauce DNA:
How can chimps share 98 per cent of our DNA and be so different?
With DNA, that two per cent difference is actually pretty high, especially considering how similar we actually are to our primate cousins.
We're not the same species, but we definitely belong in the same family (primates). 2% of DNA difference is enough to differentiate us.
Modern PCs still don't have a dedicated audio coprocessor and they generally compensate it with more CPU cores (they used to have a custom audio DSP in the EAX/A3D era, too bad most of RGB PCMR didn't have a PC back then to experience immersive/quality audio) and a dedicated asset decompressor (nVidia uses GPU ALUs to decompress data for DirectStorage).
These facts are true for both PS4 and PS5.
Not a knock on modern console design, just pointing out that truly bespoke and unique chips like the Emotion Engine are a thing of the past.
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Going by the rumoured GPU specs, the PS5 Pro GPU is roughly equivalent to the RX 7700XT.
The 7700XT, according to chatgpt 4o, has 54 TOPS.
If chatgpt is correct, and the rumour of Sony using RDNA3 is correct, then the only way Sony is hitting 300 TOPS is via a very beefy AI co-processor.
Personally I think it's more likely Sony are using a modified RDNA 3 with RDNA 4 enhancements, or they are just using RDNA4.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Mainstream hardware will catch up? The ps5 released weaker than the mid range pc I built 2 years prior
Negotiator
Member
That's like saying that your local neighborhood car mechanic knows more than an automotive engineer working at Mercedes.
You can't be serious, right?
Linus especially makes the whole "PCMR" scene look like a joke to me. It's all about RGB bling and buying used eBay mobos to "kill" the PS5, lol. Sensationalism at its finest!
Only teenagers are going to think that a YouTube clown is more knowledgeable than Cerny.